Internet poker experiences, one month later

[Paelos]

Paelos- have you played much heads up? Not that I am an expert or anything, but in my experience often ANY pair (either on the board or wired) is a winner heads up. There is no one else there donating to help increase your pot odds, so dicking around with iffy draws for a lot of money is generally unwise. I think he decided to make a stand with a couple of draws (which you have to do when there is such a disparity in chips) and got lucky; I didn't help matters by making it easier for him to play.

Yeah I play a good bit heads-up, and generally I'm a winner in SnG's, but that comes from the fact that you play your percentages early before the flop. You were holding pocket Jacks (77% winner). He's holding 63o (33% winner). You own his soul preflop, but you let him limp it in when he folds to almost any decent raise. Sure, you could have milked him hard, but I find its best to make them pony up preflop, then go for the jugular when the money is committed. Personal style though I suppose, but I've found when I try to get cute with pockets something comes up to ruin my day on the board.

[Nebu]

Great advice and suggestions... now I could use some as well.

I am making money playing online, so no real gripes.  My biggest problem is that I've become so good at waiting out "Stupidville" that I often finish 2nd or 3rd at the sit-n-go tourneys and rarely place first.  

Any advice on winning the head-to-heads?  I seem to get them committed with weaker hands, but always seem to lose on the turn or river.  Maybe it's just Lady Luck mocking me.

What is the best way to be successful once the game is down to 3 players?

[Paelos]

My formula is to draw a line in the sand based on what you've seen and play the starting hands you know will beat your opponents. Also, whenever you're on the button and you even THINK you can steal the blinds, raise it up. My standard is this when its down to three:

AA-TT: All-in if short, 4xBB or more if first raiser, all-in against any raise
99-22: All-in if short, 1xBB raise otherwise, call up to a 3xBB raise
AK-AT: All-in if short, 3xBB raise or more depending, all-in against a reraise
A9-A2: All-in if short and suited, otherwise 50% of stack, 2xBB raise, 3xBB call
Kxs: limp if possible, raise on the button
Suited connectors down to 87s: limp if possible, call up to 3xBB, never call an all-in with less that KQs preflop
Two Overcards offsuited: I tend to bet these large for info 2-4xBB depending on the player, but that's up to the situation.

On the flop I'm all-in if I have the high pair with a good kicker. I'm all-in if I have high pair and there is a four flush on the board. I bet the pot if I've got middle pair or a great draw hand (ie- four flush w/overcards, rags flop with AK-AT, outside straight draw)

Hope that helps :)

[Nebu]

That helps a ton...

I'm now wondering how many of my losses have come to you.

Thanks for the input!

[Paelos]

Here's a question I have for people. When it comes to SnG's do you prefer the Partypoker or Pokerstars style? I find Party to have a very large stratification of talent in the $10+1 games from "I'll bet anything to the river" to "I'll bet with pockets, maybe." OTOH, Stars gives you much more leeway with blinds to be a tight-agressive player even though the players are better. Too often at Party the blinds have chewed me up fast due to the shorter stacks.

So which is better for the tight/aggressive player? The poorer players or the lenient blinds?

[WayAbvPar]

Party's players are FAR worse than Stars, but I hate their structure, their software, their lobby, pretty much everything. The PP structure is just too much of a crapshoot- you only start with 800 chips, and blinds go up every 10 hands. That is not enough room for a good player to really take advantage, IMHO.

[Nebu]

I tend to play at Stars.  

Another observation: playing in the $20, $25, and $30 tables has been a much better experience for me overall.  The game plays better and you have fewer idiots calling anything just to "see what you have".  

As an aside: What the hell is up with people talking smack at the $5 - $10 tables?  It's small time... don't they get that?  

I enjoy the tables above $20 a lot and find that even when I take a bad beat that the people tend to be a bit better caliber.  I also think that they are easier to get reads on the higher tables (less random all - in with 27 off suit).  I guess if I were smart I'd take advantage of the stupid plays better, but since I consider this entertainment first I prefer the better play experience.

[Paelos]

I think I agree, I've felt pressed everytime I get into the later rounds to play hands I want nothing to do with at PP. I would rather go toe to toe with players at the $10 stars tables, but I'm going to blow my bonus at party first. I've already cashed out $100 gain on the $100 bonus so far. Then its back to stars.

[Paelos]

I'm really pissed at Party's style now after going heads-up last night and not winning. I just can't get past the fact that when you get to the last two, the blinds are usually 200/400 or more, and with only 8000 in the game, that's so hard to play aggressively. You make one error or get drawn out once, and that's it, the blinds eat your lunch next hand. Nor can you afford to throw away much at all because you know you only get so many hands, so you're forced into bad shit or risk never making a hand when it matters. More often than not I'm going heads up with about 3000 to another guys 5000 due to my tight agressive style in the early rounds. I don't usually gamble much to become the big stack.

Just bitching because I'm getting more and more tired of playing against big stack bullies with little to no knowledge of what to play except their stack size. I got taken out in the last game in the bb with 73o, catching the 7 as the top card on the flop, going all in, and the guy had 97o. I was just like, well shit, that's perfect.

[Paelos]

To add something new that I think may help out people on Party, I found that the two table SnG's offer much better play than the one table counterparts. The stacks start at $1000 instead of $800 and the blinds are much slower and more relaxed. It takes 40 minutes just to get to a 50/100 blind level. I found that in the first one I played, a 10+1, my tight/aggressive style fared much better. I actually ended up winning the whole things for an $80 payoff. So the payoffs are better as well. Making it into the top three guarantees a better payoff than second place at a one table.

Try it out if you like, I'll post my continued results as I go along.

[El Gallo]

I find the steep blind increases at PP a little aggrivating, but it is so easy to place in the money I don't really mind it being a toss-up on which money position you land in.  I will check out the 2-table games.  I have never seen any that looked like they would fill out soon (then again, I usually play PL not NL, which seems to be a lot less popular there).

[Nebu]

My advice for good play:

1) Play at Stars and not Party

2) Play the $20 S&G or higher

3) PLay the NL cash tables for intense action

I find the 2 table games frustrating as it takes so long just to get down to the people worth playing against.  I can play a turbo $25 and get to the interesting part of the game faster.

As for finishing in the money, I used to be quite content with just finishing in the money, but now find that that attitude was almost like throwing money away.  The payouts for 3rd in a single table tourney aren't even 2:1 making it so that you need to finish in the top 3 about 60% of the time to stay liquid.  The nice thing though is that once you do get into the money, it's a no lose proposition and you can allow your true playstyle to emerge.  Like I said... this is when it gets fun.

[DarkDryad]

We've got a new thing going on here that has largely kept me from going online yet. We have poker clubs opening up. Basicly its a bar that holds a hold-em tourney every night . 5 bucks to get in and poker is free so they dont run afoul of the law. everyone at the last table gets a small trophy for getting to final table and the winner gets a bigger trophy and is registered in the Friday game. Friday game winners for 11 weeks come together and play for NICE prizes. This 11 weeks top prize was a trip for 2 to Vegas  and 1k spending cash. Next 11 weeks is a 62" bigscreen HD TV and the next one is a new truck. So far I have 4 small trophys and still eyeing a big one but if you have one of these places in town there is absolutly no place better to learn the game as its only a cover charge to get in and you can get a lot of practice in for 5 bucks or so. I'll hook up with you guys online sometime.

[Paelos]

I took down another $10+1 two table win last night, and I find that luck played more of a factor late than early. Also, there were many times when I could have gone all in against better judgement, but I instead remembered Sklansky's Gap Concept and played it tighter. I think I've found two keys to winning these tournaments.

1) Patience is absolutely key. There is no substitute for it. The moment you get bored, lose focus, or get ancy, you are going to making stupid calls.

2) Don't start making gambles unless you have to, and by that I mean you are the absolute short stack at the table. As long as somebody there is less than you, let the blinds or bad play take them out.

Took out another $100 from Party after the win, and that puts the Vegas fun at $200 so far. Woohoo! 2.5 months and counting.

[Abagadro]

Weeeeeeeeee. Poker is so fun!

***** Hand History for Game 979589853 *****
15/30 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 6038229)  - Thu Sep 23 16:12:50 EDT 2004
Table Thursday $1000 Guaranteed(85269) Table 11 (Real Money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Arbela (942)
Seat 2: j_oones777 (187)
Seat 3: Jmast420 (990)
Seat 4: rustsleeps (1085)
Seat 5: stacy01 (925)
Seat 6: batman66 (911)
Seat 7: BJammin2 (1015)
Seat 8: FabAb1 (975)
Seat 9: mojorzn7 (1300)
Seat 10: ImSooFly (1670)
Arbela  posts small blind (10)
j_oones777  posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to FabAb1 [ Ac, As ]
Jmast420 folds.
rustsleeps folds.
stacy01 raises (30) to 30
batman66 folds.
BJammin2 raises (45) to 45
FabAb1 raises (125) to 125
mojorzn7 calls (125)
ImSooFly folds.
Arbela calls (115)
j_oones777 folds.
stacy01 calls (95)
BJammin2 calls (80)
** Dealing Flop ** :  [ 7c, 3c, 5s ]
Arbela checks.
stacy01 checks.
BJammin2 bets (60)
FabAb1 raises (850) to 850
FabAb1 is all-In.
mojorzn7 folds.
Arbela calls (817)
Arbela is all-In.
stacy01 folds.
BJammin2 folds.
** Dealing Turn ** :  [ 7s ]
** Dealing River ** :  [ Kc ]
Creating Main Pot with $2334 with Arbela
Creating Side Pot 1 with $33 with FabAb1
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2334 | Side Pot 1: 33
Board: [ 7c 3c 5s 7s Kc  ]
Arbela balance 2334, bet 942, collected 2334, net +1392 [ Kh 7h ] [ a full house, Sevens full of kings -- Kh,Kc,7h,7c,7s ]
j_oones777 balance 172, lost 15 (folded)
Jmast420 balance 990, didn't bet (folded)
rustsleeps balance 1085, didn't bet (folded)
stacy01 balance 800, lost 125 (folded)
batman66 balance 911, didn't bet (folded)
BJammin2 balance 830, lost 185 (folded)
FabAb1 balance 33, bet 975, collected 33, lost -942 [ Ac As ] [ two pairs, aces and sevens -- Ac,As,Kc,7c,7s ]
mojorzn7 balance 1175, lost 125 (folded)
ImSooFly balance 1670, didn't bet (folded)

[Paelos]

The guy called a 4x BB raise with K7s, then he calls an all-in with high pair 7 and not even the highest possible kicker???

Destined for greatness he is not. Sorry about the suckout.

[Abagadro]

Blinds were 10/15 at this point and there were two raises already in front of me, so he called an 8xBB re-re-raise by me and then all in with a tiny pair, second best kicker and no flush possibilites for him with 2 clubs on the board.  Was truly amazing.  That's poker though.

[WayAbvPar]

Suckout was brutal, but we all know that these idiots are exactly who we want in our games at all times. It warms my heart to see that sort of incompetence.

[Abagadro]

Ya me too, except they are tough to take in tourneys. In a ring, you just reload and wait for them to give it back. In a tourney, you are watching them from the rail piss away your chips.

[UD_Delt]

I had a brutal suckout as well playing .50/1 for one of the largest pots I've seen at that level.

I hit a set while holding pocket A's. The other guy hits a set of Q's. Ideal situation right? We cap it back and forth all the way to the river. Sure enough the third guy in the hand, who's cold callling along the entire time, rivers the gutshot straight despite a possible flush draw on the board and having none of that suit.

[DarkDryad]

I would just like to say for the record. Damn you people to hell. Yes I downloaded the PP software and played in the play money areas last night. OMG these people suck.

[Paelos]

Yes they do suck, so very very much. Almost to the point of sucking you out on the most ridiculous crap ever, so be wary.

I got back on Stars now due to the 20% EPT bonus they are offering. So I'm playing a bunch of SnG's now in a row. I found that they round up the $5.50 SnG to 3 FPP instead of 2.5, so I'm playing two of those simultaneously instead of one 10+1 to get my bonus faster. I'm also ass-whomping the players which is nice.

[DarkDryad]

First 3 games i sat in on the free stuff i ran the table and ended up with like 70k or more chips before folks would just leave. Its not hard to doink them really hard pay to see flop if you have mediocre cards if not toss em. If you have great cards follow any bet they hit you with and on last raise, raise the piss out of them at this point they have so much invested they have to stay out of some flase sense of bravado or something. I was averaging a 89% win rate on hands taken to showdown.

[UD_Delt]

Ok I have a strategy question this time. I'm curious to see how other's would have played this.

No limit $10 Sit & Go on Stars. Second level 15/30 blinds.

You are on the big blind with 9h3h.

5 limpers to you and you check.

Flop comes down Ah10h8h.

Small blind bets out $60. You call everyone else folds.

Turn is a blank.

Small blind bets out $60 again. I reraise to $180. He calls.

River is another heart.

Small blind bets out $60. I make a crying call and he shows 10cJh.



With the small flush should I have reraised him heavy on the flop to try and force him off the draw or did I do the right thing in trying to extract as much as possible and just get burned on the river?



Edit: By the way there are reload bonuses going on for Stars (20% to $120), Party (SEPREL04 - 15% to $100) and Ultimate Bet (50% to $100) right now. But I think they all end at the end of the month so use em or lose em. Empire also has a 100% up to $500 bonus (MATCHBONUSEP) but you have to work it off by playing 5x the bonus in raked hands in the next 30 days.

[Paelos]

With a flush on the board if I'm holding low cards that make it for me, I tend to reraise about 3x the BB or 2-3x the bet depending on the blinds. You want them to make hard choices about chasing a four flush, but also, if they reraise, you know you're screwed. It's a Hellmuth play, raising for information. By calling, you basically gave him a free card. I'm not saying he wouldn't call the raise because he's holding a decent four flush and a middle pair. He might be thinking you are trying to scare him off the draw with an ace. In any case, calling is never ever a good idea because you have no idea where you stand. Even a smaller raise at least puts a question mark in his head, but once you passed on it, worse players are going to call a turn raise because they think you are chasing too.

[El Gallo]

I think I would have raised on the flop to protect my little flush against a player with a higher 4-flush (or perhaps A/10 or 10/10) at that point.  I don't think that is strong enough to slowplay.

Disclaimer: I suck.

Also, the more I play PP the more I realize that players in live games are MUCH worse than players at PP.  Play at even $15/30 tables in real life is much looser and equally passive compared to a 1/2 table at PP.

edit: grammars is hard

[Dark Vengeance]

Also, the more I play PP the more I realize that players in live games are MUCH worse than players at PP.  Play at even $15/30 tables in real life are much looser and equally passive compared to a 1/2 table at PP.

I think it's because players at live games might play for 8-10 hours a week at a home game, or a few days a year at a casino. Players playing for real money online have to protect their money, even when playing small potatoes.....because they can (and often do) end up playing much much more when the game is only as far as their PC.

I'm not real eager to start playing real cash, even though I'm kicking ass on PP using play money (turned 1000 into roughly 10000 so far only playing 5/10 limit games). I don't like being unable to read the players, I play too many hands on gut, and I know I'd be hooked and would start using a "pay to play" justification if I were to start losing.

Right now, my home games and play money practice on PP are enough.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............

[Abagadro]

Dark Dryad and DV,

Please don't base any decisions on the play money games.  Even the best ring game you will ever find will not have 7 players capping it on every street.  There are guys on here who have played enough real money stuff online to give you good info, so if you have questions ask, but those play money games have absolutely no basis in the reality of poker.

[UD_Delt]

Why bother with the play money?

Download either GamingClub poker or Royal Vegas and open an account. They will seed your account with $10 and it does not require any kind of deposit from you. You don't even need to link bank account info or anything. All you have to do is verify an email address and you get the 10 bucks.

Take the $10 and starting playing their lowest limits, .05/.10 I think. Or, they offer $2 + .50 single table sit&go's. Play 4 of them and see how you do.

Rather than slowly building a bankroll of play money why not waste the time slowly building a bankroll of real money?

[DarkDryad]

Oh i play weekly in live games I was just saying they blow in the playmoney rooms is all.