Dude, am I getting a Dell?

[Sky]

That's not the case with small business, either.

[Venkman]

After the week I've had, I am realizing just how much time I'm not going to have to really build this thing the right way (like in those two other threads). What I do have though is a bit more to spend on this than I thought I would ($2,000), so would like to revisit some stuff. I don't want to go Dell/Alienware because I don't need that service (and hear it's not all that great anymore anyway), but I also don't have $5,000+ for some of the crazier high-end gaming rigs from iBuyPower or whatever.

I'm ready to go with a variant on Trippy's recommendation, but have some general questions first:

• Trippy, you meantion the C2D chipset is a bit "problematic". Does "crossover" mean one chip draws power from the other if it needs it? And is the problem right now that this doesn't function 100% of the time? I ask because if most games don't utilize this feature anyway except those I don't play anyway, then can I buy into C2D now, upgrade firmware later when my types of games do support it?
  
• Further to this, is dual-core really a stepping stone and the world is moving quad-core?
• SLI or not SLI? This still seems like an option. I had originally thought SLI was the future and that's that, but it's sounding from these threads that this may not really be the case. What's the deal? Do I need SLI?
• My current 7200rpm HD is IDE. I was thinking of just moving that straight over to the new computer. But is it better to get a new drive when getting a new rig?

I don't like the selection at Mwave

Any thoughts on a place that does the same level of bare-bones thing plus the assembly and testing? I'd rather have that happen on the supplier's end.

The Recommendation:

ASUS P5N32-E SLI nVIDIA nFORCE 680I SLI CHIPSET    $229.95 (Ok)
INTEL CORE 2 DUO E6600 (BX80557E6600) 2.4GHZ EM64T DUAL CORE W/4MB CACHE 1066MHZ    $309.00 (Ok)
CORSAIR TWIN2X2048-6400C4 2GB KIT (1GB x 2) PC26400 800MHZ MATCHED PAIR 4-4-4-12    $231.00 Should I go 4gb and be done with it?
ZALMAN CNPS9500 LED-CU COPPER BASE CPU COOLING FAN FOR AMD (SOCKET 754/939/940) AND INTEL (SOCKET 478/775) PROCESSOR W/3 PIN CONNECTOR    $57.50 (Ok)
ANTEC SLK3000B (BLACK) SUPER MID TOWER NO POWER SUPPLY W/ FRONT USB CONNECTOR    $44.85 Does this include the cooling system/fans?
ANTEC NEOHE 550 NEO POWER EPS 12V VERSION 2.2 550W UL & FCC POWER SUPPLY FOR ATX CASES    $105.80 (Ok)
SAMSUNG 18X SH-S183L SATA+LIGHTSCRIBE w/SW (Black) (White box)    $37.90 (Ok)
CREATIVE LABS SOUNDBLASTER X-FI XTREME GAMER GET FASTER FRAME RATE MORE AUDIO POWER (Retail)     $84.36 (Ok)
XFX GEFORCE 7900 GS 256MB 600MHZ DDR3 DUAL DVI PCI EXPRESS (Retail)     $202.00 Should I got 512mb RAM?
ASSEMBLY & TESTING    $79.99

[Trippy]

After the week I've had, I am realizing just how much time I'm not going to have to really build this thing the right way (like in those two other threads). What I do have though is a bit more to spend on this than I thought I would ($2,000), so would like to revisit some stuff. I don't want to go Dell/Alienware because I don't need that service (and hear it's not all that great anymore anyway), but I also don't have $5,000+ for some of the crazier high-end gaming rigs from iBuyPower or whatever.

I'm ready to go with a variant on Trippy's recommendation, but have some general questions first:

• Trippy, you meantion the C2D chipset is a bit "problematic". Does "crossover" mean one chip draws power from the other if it needs it? And is the problem right now that this doesn't function 100% of the time? I ask because if most games don't utilize this feature anyway except those I don't play anyway, then can I buy into C2D now, upgrade firmware later when my types of games do support it?
  

Crossfire, not crossover. Crossfire is ATI's version of SLI but like I said AMD bought ATI so who knows how well Crossfire will be supported on Intel MBs in the future. For example if AMD comes out with a firmware update in the future for Crossfire will it be available for the Intel MBs? Probably cause they still want people to buy ATI GPUs but who knows? Usually, though, improvements to Crossfire and SLI are done at the driver level rather than the firmware level so you certainly can think of it as an investment in the future in terms of how well games are supported though of course by that time something better might come around.

As for the C2D chipset problems like I said Intel's 975X is probably the most stable "enthusiasts" C2D chipset but it only supports Crossfire and not SLI and in Crossfire mode it only supports dual x8 PCI-e channels and not dual x16 PCI-e. NVIDIA is still working out some kinks in the 680i, mostly having to do with its RAID implementation but it supports SLI in dual x16 mode. If you don't care about SLI or Crossfire none of the 16 channels vs 32 channels stuff matters.

• Further to this, is dual-core really a stepping stone and the world is moving quad-core?

Sure.

• SLI or not SLI? This still seems like an option. I had originally thought SLI was the future and that's that, but it's sounding from these threads that this may not really be the case. What's the deal? Do I need SLI?

Dunno, do you?

• My current 7200rpm HD is IDE. I was thinking of just moving that straight over to the new computer. But is it better to get a new drive when getting a new rig?

If you don't mind wiping out your hard drive and starting over you can reuse it. I do not recommend trying to reinstall Windows on top of an existing installation nor do I recommend just sticking the drive in there and hoping things boot up. If it's a really really old drive it might be time to get a new one before your old one craps out.

I don't like the selection at Mwave

Any thoughts on a place that does the same level of bare-bones thing plus the assembly and testing? I'd rather have that happen on the supplier's end.

Just have Cheddar build you one (with parts you supply) :-D Monarch used to be good but apparently they've been having issues. Probably best to stick with Mwave. Or buy a system from your local white box store assuming you live in one of the civilized parts of the country.

[Trippy]

CORSAIR TWIN2X2048-6400C4 2GB KIT (1GB x 2) PC26400 800MHZ MATCHED PAIR 4-4-4-12    $231.00 Should I go 4gb and be done with it?

Do you have that many apps running simulatenously that you need 4 GB?

ANTEC SLK3000B (BLACK) SUPER MID TOWER NO POWER SUPPLY W/ FRONT USB CONNECTOR    $44.85 Does this include the cooling system/fans?

No. You'll need one or two 120mm fans (the front one has to be 25mm or thinner).

XFX GEFORCE 7900 GS 256MB 600MHZ DDR3 DUAL DVI PCI EXPRESS (Retail)     $202.00 Should I got 512mb RAM?

Well now that you have a bigger budget you have many more options including getting an NVIDIA 8800 card.

[Engels]

CORSAIR TWIN2X2048-6400C4 2GB KIT (1GB x 2) PC26400 800MHZ MATCHED PAIR 4-4-4-12    $231.00 Should I go 4gb and be done with it?

Do you have that many apps running simulatenously that you need 4 GB?

I've read somewhere that Vista with games runs best with at least 3 gig. Since the conversion to Vista is somewhat inevitable, it may be a good choice to buy 4 gig, with the understanding that XP doesn't really do much with more than 2 gig.

[Trippy]

CORSAIR TWIN2X2048-6400C4 2GB KIT (1GB x 2) PC26400 800MHZ MATCHED PAIR 4-4-4-12    $231.00 Should I go 4gb and be done with it?

Do you have that many apps running simulatenously that you need 4 GB?

I've read somewhere that Vista with games runs best with at least 3 gig. Since the conversion to Vista is somewhat inevitable, it may be a good choice to buy 4 gig, with the understanding that XP doesn't really do much with more than 2 gig.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of Vanguard?

[Strazos]

Yeah, the world is slowly moving towards multi-core systems; Dual-Core is just the first step. That being said, you can get good MBs that support both Dual and Quad CPUs (they use the same slot type).

Personally, I think Crossfire/SLI is practically irrelevant. Getting 2 nice cards now and running them in tandem is really overkill. It's a nice way to be able to upgrade in the future without such a big hit to your wallet, but this isn't the best option for everyone.

If you're building a system from scratch, you might as well get a new HDD. They're cheap nowadays anyway, and they're also using the new, sexy SATA interface. Also, you could still use your old drive as a storage slave drive or something.

[Venkman]

I'm the sort of gamer that cancels as many processes as possible before launching a game anyway, generally leaving the game itself, TeamSpeak/Google Talk and Firefox open at most. I was thinking 4gb of RAM right now because it'd get it out of the way, particularly when I decide it's time to go Vista.

On the HDD, I'll just get a new one, since it seems like SATA is the way to go anyway. I bought XP years ago, but as I found out when I installed the new HDD in my computer a few months back, a full install and patch is only about an hour. That I have time for, and after having seen the various things going on with Vista, I'm going to wait at least for SP1, if not beyond. It's pretty and all, but almost everything I do on my gaming computer covers all that nonsense up anyway.

Dunno, do you? (re:SLI)

You're joking right? For not this thread, I'd have bought a cheapo Alienware box. :) It seems to me though that folks think SLI/Crossfire is a temporary measure until new cards come out and trounce those en masse. I can sorta understand that. What manufacturer would want to ship twice the components when one set would do, and how many consumers would really buy two for the price of two when they can get one for the price of 1.5?

I was jerking around at the iBuyPower, CyberPower, Alienware/Dell, and DigitalStorm sites just to see how they put stuff together. Between that, the other two threads Trippy mentioned, and this one, I'm actually beginning to understand stuff. It's a shame too, because I know by the time I've gained the confidence to configure/build a PC, the tech will have evolved yet again :)

[Venkman]

Some more thoughts/questions:

1) I don't need SLI. I think I can afford the nVidia 8800. That worth it?
2) Is it worth buying a dual-core setup that I can expand to quad-core later? Are there boards that do that and work well?
3) Will I see a real-world difference between 7200rpm and 10,000rpm drives?
4) I'd like to partition the drive so C: is the OS and D: is programs and docs, so I can easily wipe C: later for Vista. How much space should I leave for Vista? 50gb?
5) If I go with a variant on Trippy's recommendation above, do I need WinXP 64-bit?
6) If I don't plan to overclock, do I need anything more than a bunch of fans?

[Strazos]

1) Sure. Pushes your upgrade that much further out.

2) Yes it is, and there are boards that do it just fine. Some current quad-core CPUs use the same socket as a C2D.

3) Slight if any, I believe. Shorter access times.

4) 50gb sounds good, as obscene as it sounds.

5) I couldn't honestly say, though I believe you Have to use 64-bit drivers, correct? There are still some people hacing such problems.

6) Good airflow.

[Venkman]

Ok, I'm doing something wrong, I just know it. Starting with Trippy's advice, here's where I'm at:

Template at mwave.com: INTEL CORE 2 DUO - 775 SYSTEMS (BLACK)
Case: ASPIRE X-NAVIGATOR (Ima sucker for pretty)
Board: ASUS P5N32-E SLI
Processor: CORE 2 DUO E6600 2.4G (1066Mhz)
Sub-total: $847.54

Components
Power: ANTEC NEOHE 550 NEO POWER EPS 12V VERSION 2.2 550W UL & FCC POWER SUPPLY FOR ATX CASES- $106.70
RAM: KINGSTON 2GB DDR2 667 x 2 (2gb total)
Video: XFX GEFORCE 8800 GTS 640MB PCI EXPRESS 500MHZ DDR3 DAUL DVI/TV- $439.00
Sound: CREATIVE LABS SOUNDBLASTER X-FI XTREME GAMER- $84.36
Cooling: ZALMAN CNPS9500 LED-CU COPPER BASE CPU COOLING FAN- $57.50
OS: MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP PRO 64X SINGLE PACK- $133.90

Total so far: $1,535.10

More questions:

1) I don't have an SLI card so don't need an SLI board right? If so, off I got to research, though am accepting advice :)
2) I would think I'd need more than just that one CPU fan. I'll add more, assuming it's just fans I need.
3) Only getting WinXP for the 64-bit compliancy stuff, assuming I need it.
4) Are there parts of this that are bottle-necks that'd mitigate the effectiveness of a component?

I'm looking to make the purchase by end of this coming week. Good times :)

[Bokonon]

Get a Seasonic power supply if possible. I've read several rave reviews at places like arstechnica.com.

What can I say about F13?  It's really my favorite website in the entire universe!  I love the irreverent banter and sly wit these keyboard jockeys produce.  And I especially love the staff, they're AWESOME.

[Trippy]

Get a Seasonic power supply if possible. I've read several rave reviews at places like arstechnica.com.

That's what I use in my main rig but Mwave doesn't sell them. I have a Neo HE as well (came as part of my P150 case) and it's fine.

[Trippy]

1) I don't have an SLI card so don't need an SLI board right? If so, off I got to research, though am accepting advice :)

If you don't ever plan on going SLI you don't need an SLI MB. However SLI MB tend to have more features than their non-SLI MB counterparts which is one of the reasons why they are more expensive.

2) I would think I'd need more than just that one CPU fan. I'll add more, assuming it's just fans I need.

Generally you should have one rear case fan. You may or may not need more than that depending on your components and the airflow design of the case.

3) Only getting WinXP for the 64-bit compliancy stuff, assuming I need it.

Getting your drivers working with 64-bit Windows XP may be painful.

4) Are there parts of this that are bottle-necks that'd mitigate the effectiveness of a component?

Well, technically your video card is still the bottleneck -- moving to the GTX should give you a notiable improvement in frame rates assuming you like to run at super-high resolutions.

[Engels]

Trippy can correct me on this, but perhaps upgrading ram to PC2 6400 instead of PC2 5400 might be a better match, simply because your motherboard is built for 800 bus speeds. 

[Trippy]

Trippy can correct me on this, but perhaps upgrading ram to PC2 6400 instead of PC2 5400 might be a better match, simply because your motherboard is built for 800 bus speeds. 

Oh yes, good thing you noticed that.

[Venkman]

Ok thanks!

So:

WinXP Pro (non-64b), since I guess I don't need 64bit compliance stuff.
PC2 6400 RAM to take advantage of the 800 bus speeds
SLI board because of other features.
Review Seasonic power supply (Neo HE is fine though)
Rear exhaust fan only, others optional depending on case.

[Strazos]

My case has 2 front intakes, a rear and a top exhaust. So air comes in over the HDD, and also blows towards the VC. Rear and top fans handle my CPU.

As far as I know, unless you're OC'ing, heat shouldn't be much of an issue with the C2D chips.

[Alkiera]

3) Only getting WinXP for the 64-bit compliancy stuff, assuming I need it.

Getting your drivers working with 64-bit Windows XP may WILL be painful.

FIFY.

There are a few companies that produce drivers for XP64, they are mostly videocard and motherboard manufacturers.  You may or may not find soundcard drivers.  Most other devices, like printers, digital cameras, etc, just don't work.  WinX64 Requires 64 bit drivers before it'll understand anything.

Also, in my not especially scientific tests, there was no performance increase in 32-bit games, and 64-bit games are non-existant... Heck, half of the WinX64 utils are still 32-bit, running in emulation (WindowsOnWindows, indeed...)

In short, there's even fewer good reasons to go 64-bit OS than there are to go Vista, and even more bad ones.  WinXP>Vista>WinXP64.

--
Alkiera

[Trippy]

Also, in my not especially scientific tests, there was no performance increase in 32-bit games, and 64-bit games are non-existant...

There are 64-bit versions of Far Cry, and UT 2004 (I think), and...that's about it.

[ajax34i]

My personal opinion, and I'm by no means an expert, but that GeForce 8800 is basically the first of the DX10 cards, isn't it?  I need to get a new computer too, but I was going to wait till July/August, for basically the Service Pack 1 of video cards (cheaper, possibly less buggy versions).  But, you can upgrade the video card down the line, so it's not that big of a deal.

[Trippy]

My personal opinion, and I'm by no means an expert, but that GeForce 8800 is basically the first of the DX10 cards, isn't it?

Yes.

I need to get a new computer too, but I was going to wait till July/August, for basically the Service Pack 1 of video cards (cheaper, possibly less buggy versions).  But, you can upgrade the video card down the line, so it's not that big of a deal.

Prices will drop once ATI finally rolls out its line of DX10 (R600-based) cards.

[Hoax]

I think I would rather have 4 gigs of ram and take some money out of the video card or the cpu (downgrade to the E6400).  Not that I know much mind you.

[Trippy]

I think I would rather have 4 gigs of ram and take some money out of the video card or the cpu (downgrade to the E6400).  Not that I know much mind you.

Memory is a lot easier to upgrade than a CPU though, unless you have a gigantic heat sink which is blocking the empty memory slots in which case it's about a wash.

[Venkman]

Thanks guys. Going to order this week. I've lived through enough "in a few months" waiting periods to realize the only way I'd save money is if I bought this exact setup in that few months... knowing full well what I'd really do is spend the equivalent cash on a slightly improved setup anyway. So buying now or later really don't matta to me :)

I think I would rather have 4 gigs of ram and take some money out of the video card or the cpu (downgrade to the E6400).  Not that I know much mind you.

Any particular reason why?

[Strazos]

I would prolly dump the most money into the CPU out of those three choices. Typically, I believe your max CPU options peaks sooner than for RAM or Video Cards; sockets change, and soon after it becomes difficult to find CPUs for that socket you have. AGP lasted how long? And RAM is just easy to upgrade or add more later.

[Hoax]

The 6600 is almost $100 more then the 6400, the vid card he quoted at $440.  Neither seem necessary unless you are trying to avoid buying a new computer in 3 years, which is a fool's game imho.  I always end up with a new mobo/cpu every 3-4 years, no matter what I intended.  Also usually by then I need to pass down older comps to family members or parts are dying on me.  For video cards I tend to prefer to spend $200-250 about every 2-3 years.

So from my prior experiences, getting the 4gigs of ram now, will provide the most bang:buck over the 3-4 life of the rig.  But people are absolutely right when they say, putting in the other two gigs can be done whenever with no hassle.  My thinking probably makes more sense if you make the limited income I make and live in the stupidly expensive city I live in.