Anatomy of a Scam

[SirBruce]

This got slashdotted, but I thought it was interesting enough to post a link to it here as well:

http://www.pq5.com/Nightfreeze/part1.html

Bruce

[Trippy]

I fear for the human race.

[stray]

Don't take it the wrong way, but that's good press for Eve. I hated that game, but I feel like playing now.

[MrHat]

Don't take it the wrong way, but that's good press for Eve. I hated that game, but I feel like playing now.

Roger that.  Some parts sound fun.  But you have to remember when he says "2 hours later.." he really means 2 hours later...Travel times beotch.

[eldaec]

Summary for people who have better things to do....



Scammer: Giv 200 million credits and I will give you a battleship blueprint, uh, tomorrow.

Scammee: Ok - here you go.

Scammer : Muahahaha - I R teh scammer.

Scammee: I dislike you now.

[Scammee exits]

EPILOGUE

Scammer: Hello random person, would you like some credits.

random_person01 : yes.

[Scammer gives random_person01 all the credits]

[Scammer quits game]



It's about the 19th forum I've seen a repost of this story on, I still don't see what's comment worthy about it.

Some guy made up a story about lying to get MMOG money. /shrug

If you want I can start making threads about exciting new email scams involving Nigerians and money transfer processing fees.

[Trippy]

It's about the 19th forum I've seen a repost of this story on, I still don't see what's comment worthy about it.

Well I find it interesting because:

1) The guy can actually write reasonably well, at least by today's online writing standards. I found it entertaining.

2) You don't often read about these sorts of scams from the scammer's point of view.

[SirBruce]

It's a morality tale.  The guy feels like he has to break the rules, because others are being unfair and making it too hard for him to get by without breaking the rules.  So he breaks the rules.  He gets his revenge on the system.  And then he realizes that all that money he got didn't really buy him what he was seeking.  He had become so focused on the goal, he lost sight of the fact that it was the process of getting there that was the real reward.

He felt guilty... sorta... more like he learned that what he did wasn't what he wanted.  And he gave the money away and quit.  It gives him a sense of cosmic, karmic justice, although not quite the sort of personal justice one would have liked.  He didn't make amends to those he hurt, but at least he learned part of the lesson.  He learned something about himself and something about life.

Bruce

[Phred]

Sounds like a Clint Eastwood western.

[geldonyetich]

It's the mark of a good story teller that you can make the most boring activity on the face of existance sound exciting.   Kudos to this guy for doing that.

[Morfiend]

Didnt we have a thread on this several months ago?

[AOFanboi]

Yes.

(What, someone insinuating people are post-count whores? Well I never!)

[eldaec]

I might be wrong - but I think you're thinking of a thread on the-forum-that-shall-not-be-named.

[Arnold]

It's a morality tale.  The guy feels like he has to break the rules, because others are being unfair and making it too hard for him to get by without breaking the rules.  So he breaks the rules.  He gets his revenge on the system.  And then he realizes that all that money he got didn't really buy him what he was seeking.  He had become so focused on the goal, he lost sight of the fact that it was the process of getting there that was the real reward.

He felt guilty... sorta... more like he learned that what he did wasn't what he wanted.  And he gave the money away and quit.  It gives him a sense of cosmic, karmic justice, although not quite the sort of personal justice one would have liked.  He didn't make amends to those he hurt, but at least he learned part of the lesson.  He learned something about himself and something about life.

Bruce

But you've got to admit, the game sounded pretty weak before.  The guy could just hit his MWD button and instantly get out of trouble for free.  When the developers changed the game so he'd need some muscle to make the mad cash he was getting, he didn't hire muscle.  Instead, he scammed.

[SirBruce]

I agree, but at least in order to pull off the scam he had to change characters, and the game design was robust enough that he would have still had to work a lot on his new character to eventually enjoy the "riches" of his old one.  It's still not a perfect solution, but it is a step in the right direction.

Bruce

[geldonyetich]

One key point that may be missed is that there's so many players ganking others that being a legitimate trader is so difficult.   The reason why those players are ganking others is the same reason why they did it in Ultima Online.   It was the most fun, profitable activity around, since your alternatives were building chairs.

[Arnold]

One key point that may be missed is that there's so many players ganking others that being a legitimate trader is so difficult.   The reason why those players are ganking others is the same reason why they did it in Ultima Online.   It was the most fun, profitable activity around, since your alternatives were building chairs.

If you've got a huge, slow ship that's filled with phat loot and running through sectors that are lightly patrolled by police, you are STUPID for not bringing an escort.  I'm sure that's what the developers had in mind the whole time.

The pirates were the guys are the bridge saying, "Your cargo or your..." and the traders were the once saying, "LOL!!!! KAL ORT POR, BITCH!"

Until the devs fixed things.

[Khaldun]

Off on a tangent here--I think the main thing about that story is simply that it's so well written and thus a great thing in its own right.

-----


There are really only two questions worth asking about a game design like this:

1) Is it fun?

2) Is it simulating something interesting about the way societies actually work in such a way as to hold the attention of players and maybe make them reflect on "real life"?


To me 1) is the one that really counts. So was EVE more fun after the MWD switch? Yes, if you're a pirate, no if you're a trader. But of course the problem is that the "fun" of both is interdependent: it's a kind of ecosystem of fun. If the pirates have too much fun (e.g., things are too heavily weighted in their favor), there ends up being nothing but pirates.
This has happened not just in MMOGs but other multiplayer games: when there's too many cheaters in Diablo, there end up being just cheaters. When there's just cheaters, the cheaters aren't differentiated from anyone else--there's no "normals" against whom the cheaters appear fabulously overpowered and successful.

But let's take 2). This is where the fact that developers act like a strange combination of an invisible government and God (e.g., a government which is nowhere but listens to the pleas of citizens, and which can alter the laws of physics in response to those pleas) is ultimately an enormous problem.  You could protest and say, "What would happen in real life if merchants tried to travel without escorts through dangerous areas? It's obvious: hire escorts!" So it is. But what also happens in real life, in human history, when there are areas through which trade cannot pass? 1) The flow of trade decreases dramatically and isolated economies die or become enclaves of illegal activity. 2) People with an economic interest in having trade flow from one place to another--especially if there's something they really need at the other end of a dangerous trade route--do more than hire escorts. They urge, cajole, compel any powerful government they have a relationship with to step in with force and protect trade while killing pirates. Strong kings or states or empires are remembered in history and legend for precisely this reason. So as a simulation, something like EVE really needs a compelling concept of government and trade that the activities of players rests upon: if there's no state, there should be NO STATE, not even an invisible one that can alter the laws of physics because pirates are unhappy. If there is a state, its limits and powers should be circumscribed the same way that the players' are. If you put MWDs in the game, put some possibility--maybe modeled as a probablistic thing--that if the pirates invest enough in R&D, they can come up with a MWD-interdictor. If you're going to make the rules dynamic, then make the dynamism of the rules something which is itself modeled by rules and constraints.

[Numtini]

The only problem with simulation of cleaning up pirate activity is that pirates in Eve, like PKs in UO, don't have the manners to stay dead. Makes keeping them under control terribly hard.

[stray]

Or 3) Get rid of the concept and allowance of pirates entirely...Or vice versa: Get rid of the traders. Maybe they just can't coexist. Not in open PvP at least. Realism and simulation at the expense of fun isn't a good idea. Some people just need their own games.

Getting rid of the conflict is a hell of a lot easier and trouble-free than getting rid of the "state" (I doubt the technology to do that even exists as of yet). Besides, half of the developer's wouldn't even bother with MMO's if they couldn't play God.

[doubleplus]

Interesting read. I caught it on another forum or two but definitely worth a reread. I still say he should have pulled a Trainspotting and given cash to the guy who originally helped him out when he was a n00b. The scam itself was generally terrible, but things like this just end up feeling bigger than life, like a heist movie. What is so amazing is he manages to make EVE sound fun. I know better, because I'll never get those six months back :(.

[Tige]

Nicely written piece, however, there is no difference in being eloquently stupid and just plain ole stupid.

As far as player pirates go, they are pretty easy to avoid.  If you want to play EVE PvE it is very easy to do.  The bulk the players congregate in only a handfull of the 5000 systems.  There are some chokepoints that you need to be careful in if you are going to 0.0 security space (where anything goes) but if you are going there you have a good idea of what to expect.  Even with that, there are routes in and out of all types of systems which your chance of finding a player pirate are low.

-Tige

Edit:

One key point that may be missed is that there's so many players ganking others that being a legitimate trader is so difficult.

While some have a opinion the EVE is nothing more than a huge "I am going to wtfpwn j0o n0ob" gankfest, that doesn't necessarily ring true.  If Transports are in a space where pirates have the opportunity to attack them the transport pilot more times than not has the ability to summon his corp members to the area, place an obscence bounty on him which makes the hunter now the hunted, or escape.  

Pirates in EVE are relatively close to the real world pirates.  Sure, they may get a good haul now and again to sustain themselves but there is consequence.  It may not be immediate, but there is one none the less.

[Numtini]

I'm playing Eve and it seems to be very reasonable in balance of PVE and PVP. I haven't been out to 0.0 yet, but if the purpose of it is to simulate piracy and get a good risk/reward balance, it seems to work out really well. Our operations "feel" like an operation in a dangerous place, it doesn't feel like you're just dealing with idiot PKs.

[HaemishM]

Welcome to two months ago.

Oddly enough, I just read this last Friday. At least he can write well, unlike many of the worst dregs of MMOG's. But he does have a moral to the story.

"People in MMOG's are just as stupid as in real life."

The fact that he felt bad about his scam doesn't really redeem him.

[Arcadian Del Sol]

[Arnold]

The only problem with simulation of cleaning up pirate activity is that pirates in Eve, like PKs in UO, don't have the manners to stay dead. Makes keeping them under control terribly hard.

Yes, but the guy mentioned that losing a ship set him back a lot of time due to resource gathering requirements to replace it, and he also mentioned that dying cost him several weeks of playing that he would need to get those skills back to previous levels.

Seems that would be a good deterrent for pirates if there were any effective pirate hunters nearby.

[Numtini]

Yes, but the guy mentioned that losing a ship set him back a lot of time due to resource gathering requirements to replace it, and he also mentioned that dying cost him several weeks of playing that he would need to get those skills back to previous levels.

Seems that would be a good deterrent for pirates if there were any effective pirate hunters nearby

If you mean the original scammer in the article, unless I read it wrong, he lost weeks (probably longer) of skills because he deleted used his main character for the scam and deleted it to cover up.

You can lose skills if you die, but that's avoidable by just buying a clone, which is fairly cheap. All ships are partially insured and you can buy enough insurance to cover the ship and all it's contents. That can get pricey if you lose a ship every day. But I think I have enough cash to buy two replacements for the ship I'm using now and I'm still a newbie.