WAR - My screed of kookery

[angry.bob]

I know there's another thread, but it's way too long and had HROSE in it. Here are some quick thoughts on some subjects I consider important

1) Premades/Gank groups will ruin the game for most people
Yes, it’s sad but true. But frankly there’s nothing you can do to prevent them from forming, just mitigate their negative impact and counter the advantages they have. It’s no surprise that very organized groups will dominate in PvP.  I’m not complaining or saying they shouldn’t, just pointing out that getting rolled by people you stand no chance against is something people don’t enjoy. Just read any thread about BG premades right now and you’ll see. The biggest advantage they have, communication, leads me to my next thing:

2) You must have native voice communications
What you have to do to make it happen is irrelevant, but it must be done - no matter what. Letting it be your player’s problem to set up their own Vent isn’t going to cut it anymore. Also, any game with an Xbox version has painted itself into a corner. As far as I know, there’s no approved keyboard for the Xbox, and a PvP centered game without communications of any kind is doomed. It doesn’t need to handle everyone in a normal zone, just everyone in a party/group and for the whole side in instanced battlegrounds. And you have to make it so you can mute people. Without easy to use voice communications built into the game, it will lead to people getting frustrated, quitting, and never looking back. This is an area that EA may be of considerable help in. Not saying you're not bright enough to do voice, but they've already done it. Cut and paste code ftw.

3) No more than 6 to 8 hours of time played between some reward, regardless of level
Even if the reward is just you’ve earned enough “points” to more spiky bits for your armor, a meaner looking choppa blade, or a checker pattern for your shield or spaulders. Grinding for days on end for a carrot sucks, and is not fun – even if it’s done in PvP. For cosmetic only rewards there’s no reason why a player should walk away from 8 hours of playing with nothing to show for it. For items that affect gameplay, you can drag it out a little longer, but not more than 20 hours. At about 1500-2000 honor a day (thanks Alliance BG queues) it’ll take me a month of 4-5 hour play sessions every day for a GM 2-hander. That’s not fun or challenging, it’s just ass. But it still beats raiding.

4) Queues suck
If your game has Queues, it’s fundamentally broken and needs redesigned somewhere. Period

5) Don’t design any PvE content that can’t be done with a PUG of 5 of the weakest class.
Either that or clearly label your game as only playable from 3 to 11 pm EST. As an off-hour player, every MMO but UO has had nothing to do during off-peak hours except solo grind. It sucks. Don’t design anything that takes more than 5 people to do, ever. Besides, despite what raiders say, nobody likes raiding – not even raiders. The current complete death of raiding in WoW pretty much proves that now beyond any argument. If raiding was really about camaraderie, challenge, and testing organizational abilities, people would still be raiding. They aren’t. Raiding is about getting the best loot and the exercise of forcing social conformity.

[Merusk]

The biggest advantage that premades/gank groups have isn't communication, it's orginization.  When you have an ideal mix of classes, people who work together on a regular basis, and a plan, they can trump you with or without voice chat.  The chat simply makes things simpler for them, and allows a kind of laziness about reading awareness to set-in.

Yes, native voice com would help to a degree, but you'd still have people who refuse to use it.  Either because they're on Dial-up, or a shitty rig that crashes when they use voice chat, simply lack a microphone, or because they don't want you to know they're male or female beyond what the avatar is displaying. (not just manginas, but women who play men to avoid the 'zomg boobies' and prince charming effects)   All of which are still realities in the MMO world.

Raiding.  <-- Still raiding.  Still with 40 other folks who enjoy raiding, and doing one tomorrow night, in fact, despite many of us also putzing with PvP during the week to get other stuff.

Yes, some people DO enjoy it. Shock and awe.  We raid to see the content, as well as get the loot. We'll probably run Naxx at 65-70 just to see what we paid for.

That said, it has no place in WAR.  It's a PvP game based on a squad-based PnP game.  There shouldn't be PvE at all, imo, but that's just not going to be reality.  So, I agree that the hardest stuff should be doable by the wimpiest of classes - On. Their. Own.  It's not what your audience is there for, so there's no need to put the screws to your weaklings and force grouping on them outside of the PvP arena.

And let me add:

Stealth - it sucks because it's never done right.  Classes either become gank & run glass cannons or can't do jack because "Stealth is your advantage, kill the weak people!" It just doesn't need to be in a PvP game.

Stuns/ CC  - Even more aggrivating than stealth.  I deliberatly drop freeze traps on my hunter, poly with my mage and fear with the priest then walk away, knowing the person on the other side of the screen is yelling about what bullshit it is and how helpless they feel.  You want CC, allow collision detection between players and let THEM be the CC/ protection of the 'squishys'. Anything else is just a cop-out.

[eldaec]

I agree with most of that, but 8 hours is too long before some kind of win.

And I agree that 5 randoms should be able to work through any sort of essential progression content. But I do think there is a place for raids that require more than 5 people or proper organisation, they just shouldn't all be about 8 hour slogs requiring 40 people. And raids should not be the only path to top tier equipment.

DAoC realm dragons are the best example of how raids should work imo.

1) They can be killed theoretically by 1 group - but 1 group plus a support group for adds is highly recommended.

2) It took *years* for the playerbase to work out how to kill them efficiently. There are plenty of people who enjoyed figuring it out.

3) The raid takes about 60-90 minutes.

4) A reasonable proportion of two groups can walk away with good loot (plus, since it's only two groups there is scope for organising handmedowns so almost everyone gets something).

5) Housing Trophies.

6) Highly saleable commodities are dropped (respecs in this case) making it even easier to ensure everyone walks away with something useful.

Regarding queues, you are right to say that they suck, but note that players forming their own queue to kill the 'Assgoblin of Monkeynuts' for the 18th time today sucks just as much as a queue managed by the system. Named mobs on quests or which drop desirable loot belong either in instances or on very short (< 1 minute) spawn timers (and if they are not in instances they also deserve a back story that explains why they are coming back).

Some more points.

 - Don't do away with support classes. Plenty of people like playing healers. Don't tell me they don't because I'm one of them. This doesn't mean I just want a bunch of heal spells and a bunch of non-interactive buffs. And this doesn't mean groups should be required to have a cleric at all times either. See CoH/V for the best support model I've ever played. This is something that can be done right, if you want to give support classes some aggression, debuffs are the easiest way to do it.

 - Every dwarf needs a stake in the outcome of every pvp battle that every other dwarf is involved in. It does not have to be a big stake, but if you don't have some reason to be interested then it is no longer realm v realm, it reverts to player v player with arbitary limits on who you can and cannot fight.

 - Grouping should be more efficient than not grouping. Yes people need to be able to solo as well; but grouping is how you differentiate this game from Oblivion; grouping encourages community and helps guilds find members; grouping drags new people out to rvr; and grouping has an enormous overhead in setting things up, communicating, and training new players - that overhead needs to be rewarded.


EDIT:-

One more thing. GOA is seriously broken. And as I'm European based they are the one thing that may well stop me bothering with WAR. Now that WAR has EA behind it - Mythic need to get someome at EA to give GOA some real attention.

The network stability problems with daoc were real - and given who owns GOA it's hard to imagine they've done anything to allow them to work around OpenTransit.

GOA's godawful approach to customer service was also a real problem - there was no in game support whatsoever in DAoC europe - you had to email GOA instead; and if you did that you'd just get canned responses from someone who could barely speak English and clearly hadn't understood what you'd written (I understand from conversations in game that other non-French players have the same language problem).

Web functionality like the herald RvR stats was almost never available - and when it was available, it was hard to take GOA seriously when they push it out through such an unprofessional website (last I looked it was literally 100% flash, and the slowest piece of trash imaginable). This may not sound like much but it really made the European customers look like the poor relations.

This is before we even start to discuss fiascos involving people breaking into admin accounts and spawning Dragons in emain.

Or the time GOA had to change everyone's password because someone gained access to the password file and there was no way to change passwords yourself in DAOC europe.

Oh, and 3 month patch delays in order to translate American English into...   American English are not acceptable.

[Arthur_Parker]

Stealth - it sucks because it's never done right.  Classes either become gank & run glass cannons or can't do jack because "Stealth is your advantage, kill the weak people!" It just doesn't need to be in a PvP game.

Stuns/ CC  - Even more aggrivating than stealth.  I deliberatly drop freeze traps on my hunter, poly with my mage and fear with the priest then walk away, knowing the person on the other side of the screen is yelling about what bullshit it is and how helpless they feel.  You want CC, allow collision detection between players and let THEM be the CC/ protection of the 'squishys'. Anything else is just a cop-out.

I think they have already stated there is no stealth, collision detection has been talked about but it's not confirmed for release as they don't want to promise it and fail to deliver.  I agree with stuns and cc, very annoying.

On raiding, if there is a 40 man raid then you should be able to complete it from start to finish in 30 mins, an hour at the very very most.  Maybe put a timer that allows each individual players to loot the end boss only once a week but make the encounter difficult but fun.  If the minor bosses can give good loot/points whatever, then you will get the most bang for buck content wise as there will constantly be groups forming to run the encounter. 

I'd even be tempted to put a quicky pve boss encounter in as a reward for capturing or losing zone control, as you already have 2 opposing raids containing everyone in the disputed zone.  No waiting for players, no buffing, no afk idiots, no bathroom breaks, the zone changes hands and instantly a major boss mob starts killing people forcing respawns for the next zone battle.  I think it's important to put a reward in for losing zone control as there are few things worse than the idiots who complain about losing and blame everyone else for not listening to their "expert" advice.

[Monika T'Sarn]

With pvp battlegrounds actually used to level up, its critical that you allways find enemies for them. Since they will be spread out over 3+3 regions and lots of levels, finding enough people for each side seems impossible.
I'd suggest clustering, like WoW did far to late - but then how can you make progress to assault the enemies hometown on your server ? Maybe servers with bigger populations then we are used to ?

[HRose]

With pvp battlegrounds actually used to level up, its critical that you allways find enemies for them. Since they will be spread out over 3+3 regions and lots of levels, finding enough people for each side seems impossible.
I'd suggest clustering, like WoW did far to late - but then how can you make progress to assault the enemies hometown on your server ? Maybe servers with bigger populations then we are used to ?

Actually the PvP zone is just one for every tier (where each "tier" should group ten or what we can consider "levels") and then one for every battlefront. There are three battlefronts so 3 PvP zones in total for every tier.

But the problem is surely actual if you even add the "scenarios" instances that will break the population in smaller chunks.

Right now things don't seem too different from DAoC, with the difference that in Warhammer the PvP area is right next to the PvE zone, so you don't have to travel to the "border keep" and then get ported to a BG.

DAoC currently has 10 BGs in total, but most of these are deserted, and even those populated are rather empty if you play during the off-peaks.

Warhammer should have 9 PvP areas (+scenarios) for the first three tiers, so it looks they are aiming for a similar structure.

That's still a very open problem.

[Threash]

The biggest advantage that premades/gank groups have isn't communication, it's orginization.  When you have an ideal mix of classes, people who work together on a regular basis, and a plan, they can trump you with or without voice chat.  The chat simply makes things simpler for them, and allows a kind of laziness about reading awareness to set-in.

I can't stress this enough.  I was on one of the first WSG guilds on my server, we NEVER used any kind of voice comm and we dominated the server with people who hit lvl 60 and started pvping in greens and lvl 50 blues.  What i see all the time now is people adverticing in SW for "premade ab groups with vent", and they are barely above a pick up group.  Being able to talk to each other means absolutely nothing if people still play the exact same way they did before, they think having vent is the key to victory rather than using good tactics and listening.  Having vent might get you a win over a pick up group, its not the reason premades succeed and honestly its not even necesary or all that helpfull when you get right down to it.

[Nebu]

Having vent might get you a win over a pick up group, its not the reason premades succeed and honestly its not even necesary or all that helpfull when you get right down to it.

I disagree VERY strongly and have seen numerous examples of voice chat affecting outsomes in FPS, DAoC, WoW, etc.  It allows for rapid changes in tactics, it allows for choreographed use of abilities more rapid and precise than depending on a chat window, and most importantly it allows the players to focus their attention on what's happening around them rather than on the chat window.  A good group is good without voice chat, but even better with it.  Being able to rapidly get cc on someone harassing a support player is a fight turner when both groups fighting contain well-versed players.

[Threash]

I prefer having people who already know what to do without needing to be told.  I only spoke from experience, my group won 95% of our matches without ever using voice comm.  I only speak for WoW though, i have no experience at all with Daoc or organized FPS matches.

[Nebu]

I prefer having people who already know what to do without needing to be told.  I only spoke from experience, my group won 95% of our matches without ever using voice comm.  I only speak for WoW though, i have no experience at all with Daoc or organized FPS matches.

Knowing how to play has nothing to do with coordination.  You should try it with voice chat sometime.  You can't see 360 degrees 100% of the time.  Voice chat allows for people to communicate what they see developing quickly and allows you to have a greater awareness than just what you're able to see on your own screen.  It's really hard to explain in words, but with a well-played group voice chat still makes a huge difference in so many intangible ways.

My greatest familiarity is with DAoc, so it could be a difference in game mechanics/complexity that makes the difference.  Coordinating 8 people in very specialized roles is quite different than 5 with more diverse abilities. 

[Zetor]

At the risk of WOW-izing the thread [then again, which thread doesn't get the WOW treatment nowadays? :p]

On my server (Crushridge), I've been in a few 'premade' ABs that are barely a step above PUGs, sometimes with voice comms, sometimes without, barely holding a 3-cap [and outright losing in some cases]. I've also been in "invite-only" pvp teams without vcomm and an extremely simple strat [g1 to bs->lm, g2 to bs->farm, g3 to mine->farm/st, random person caps stables, reinforce as needed] consistently 5-cap and hold a strong 3-4-cap even against groups from other servers, because basically everyone knew where to position, how many people to send to reinforce a certain node, how to ninja a node, how to work with crowd control / protect others in a group fight / etcetera. Even if everyone is on vent and listening to orders, having to call out "ok X and Y reinforce mine, A and B go ninja farm" is a lot slower and takes more concentration than those people doing that on their own.

Edit: Yes, of course a team WILL be more efficient with voice comms, but it's nowhere near as important as knowing how to work together in the first place.


-- Z.

[Nebu]

Well, maybe it's a game mechanics thing... in PvP, positioning of support, interrupts, and target selection mean everything.  Being able to ensure everyone is ALWAYS on the same page in the shortest amount of time possible means more consistency.  In DAoC if all other things are equal, a team without voice chat will not fair well.  Then again, that game has had 5+ years for people to develop optimized strategies and group builds for pvp.   

[Threash]

On my server (Crushridge)
-- Z.

Hah, where you around during the <PuG> days?

[Venkman]

Voicecomm is most effective at separating one premade from another. But for PUGs, it's a crapshoot. You can have everyone have voicecomm all day long, but it matters not a whit if they aren't interested in taking orders and keeping them.

Shorthand chat works just fine. The ABs I lead generally win with nothing more than the usual tactics for boosting morale. And that's just social techniques independent of the medium of expression. It's particularly hard for Alliance on my battlegroup because we generally suck at AB in PUGs. So people still are just using AB until their AV queues is up. And we very rarely lose an AV.

[Zetor]

On my server (Crushridge)
-- Z.

Hah, where you around during the <PuG> days?

Yeah, and before that too... [BH original, transferred to CR around march '05]  :p I remember the epic PuG/BK vs PvP showdowns, though I never had the chance to participate (friggin' timezones).


-- Z.

[Daeven]

5) Don’t design any PvE content that can’t be done with a PUG of 5 of the weakest class.
Either that or clearly label your game as only playable from 3 to 11 pm EST. As an off-hour player, every MMO but UO has had nothing to do during off-peak hours except solo grind. It sucks. Don’t design anything that takes more than 5 people to do, ever. Besides, despite what raiders say, nobody likes raiding – not even raiders. The current complete death of raiding in WoW pretty much proves that now beyond any argument. If raiding was really about camaraderie, challenge, and testing organizational abilities, people would still be raiding. They aren’t. Raiding is about getting the best loot and the exercise of forcing social conformity.

This is why I wish it was more, well, Warhammerish. make a quest that requires 5-10 people to complete it. Just make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that I can flush out my group with henchmen as appropriate.

Personally, in terms of RvR perks, I'd love a battle Standard. and a Bearer. With a custom image. that gains chevrons as I improve. And a personal guard. Which improves instead of my character (an individual can only go so far, but when I bring the entire company of Choppa's or Temple Guard, well, sucks to be you). Indirect advancement as you will. Have the fluff around the character improve instead of more hit points.

[Daeven]

Regarding queues, you are right to say that they suck, but note that players forming their own queue to kill the 'Assgoblin of Monkeynuts' for the 18th time today sucks just as much as a queue managed by the system. Named mobs on quests or which drop desirable loot belong either in instances or on very short (< 1 minute) spawn timers (and if they are not in instances they also deserve a back story that explains why they are coming back).

Then don't make static named MOB's. NPC's should level up and loot just like you do. So who is the Assgoblin? well, the biggest baddest goblin out there. And your quest, given to you by the elder of the random village in the middle of bumfuck nowhere, is to save them from the Assgoblin hoard.

Figure out how to solve it yourself.

[Threash]

On my server (Crushridge)
-- Z.

Hah, where you around during the <PuG> days?

Yeah, and before that too... [BH original, transferred to CR around march '05]  :p I remember the epic PuG/BK vs PvP showdowns, though I never had the chance to participate (friggin' timezones).


-- Z.

God damn, we've probably played together before.  I used to be Tremain until i sold him a couple weeks ago.

[Strazos]

Just as an example of what Voice comm can do, in the late Guild Wars beta, a bunch of F13'ers plus a couple of my friends nearly won the Big team thing (Tomb of the Ancient Kings? I forget.). We only lost because the NPC we had to protect and escort to a platform got bugged and teleported below the map. I think that says something if you know anything about F13 guilds.

Also, re: Eve Online.

[Soln]

I know there's another thread, but it's way too long and had HROSE in it.

lawl

does anyone believe WAR will be different than old Emain zone zergs?  My bet, they start off pushing people into queues.  Once they have a more comfortable user base, or just a stable one, then we might get more sanity.

[Bunk]

Well, maybe it's a game mechanics thing... in PvP, positioning of support, interrupts, and target selection mean everything.  Being able to ensure everyone is ALWAYS on the same page in the shortest amount of time possible means more consistency.  In DAoC if all other things are equal, a team without voice chat will not fair well.  Then again, that game has had 5+ years for people to develop optimized strategies and group builds for pvp.   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU0AB6xAtMg

[tazelbain]

 

[Nebu]

Well, maybe it's a game mechanics thing... in PvP, positioning of support, interrupts, and target selection mean everything.  Being able to ensure everyone is ALWAYS on the same page in the shortest amount of time possible means more consistency.  In DAoC if all other things are equal, a team without voice chat will not fair well.  Then again, that game has had 5+ years for people to develop optimized strategies and group builds for pvp.   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU0AB6xAtMg

Using voice communication for PvE is a whole different ball game.  The only time I'd EVER consider it would be to shoot the shit with a group of friends as a distraction from PvE.  Then again, you know how I feel about PvE for the most part.

[C99]

A "fight or flight" game mechanic can balance the dominance of premades/gank groups.  If your newbie PUG runs into a seasoned RR13  group, for example, someone in your group should somehow be able to decide whether to stick around and fight or to save the group and the regrouping time costs and escape.  Some sort of cost should be associated with escaping, of course - i.e. losing territorial rights.

[eldaec]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU0AB6xAtMg

I love that video - I've never got into WoW, but I have plenty of sympathy for anyone trying to get MMOG players to stand in the right fucking place.