New Member, New Computer

[Ian]

Hey guys. I'm Ian. I used to post on here looooooong ago when it was just Waterthead. Joe, if you see this, where the hell have you been?

Anyway, so I'm building this new system in a couple weeks and I wanted some opinions on it. From reading some threads, you guys seem to have a lot of good knowledge and opinions, and I'd like to hear some.

Here's my system.

Case: Antec Super Lanboy
Fans: Antec 2 x 120mm, 5 x 80mm (I got 5 as a package deal, probably won't use all of them.)
Power Supply: Antec TruePower 550w
Motherboard: ASUS A8V Deluxe
Processor: AMD Athlon 64-bit 3000
RAM: 1 GB PC3200 DDR
Videocard: ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 256mb DDR
Drives are pretty standard...

What do you guys think?

-Ian

[Soukyan]

Hey! I'm Ian, too, except I don't go by that here... obviously.

I'm a fan of Lian Li cases myself. Other than that, it looks like a damn spiffy system you got there.

[Trippy]

Here's my system.

Case: Antec Super Lanboy
Fans: Antec 2 x 120mm, 5 x 80mm (I got 5 as a package deal, probably won't use all of them.)
Power Supply: Antec TruePower 550w
Motherboard: ASUS A8V Deluxe
Processor: AMD Athlon 64-bit 3000
RAM: 1 GB PC3200 DDR
Videocard: ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 256mb DDR
Drives are pretty standard...

What do you guys think?

-Ian

The A8V is a Socket 939 board and the slowest Socket 939 A64 right now is the 3500+ ($485 Newegg). So you are either going to have to upgrade your CPU or look for a Socket 754 board.

The VIA K8T800Pro chipset on the A8V sort of has an AGP/PCI lock for expanded overclocking options though it doesn't actually work well at the moment. It may be something that can be fixed with BIOS upgrade. If overclocking is important to you you may want to look for an nForce3-250 board instead. You can read more about overclocking the K8T800Pro and nForce3-250 at AnandTech here:

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2069&p=1

If you do plan on overclocking, you might want to get memory faster than DDR 400 (PC3200) though there's the lower latency vs larger bandwidth issue to consider. And since the A8V is a dual channel memory motherboard I would recommend getting matched memory (2 x 512 MB).

The Super LANBOY only has mounts/cutouts for 2 120 mm fans so unless you plan on cutting some additional holes those 80 mm fans are not needed.

For power supplies I prefer the Enermax Noisetaker line to the Antec TruePowers -- the Enermax are much quieter -- though that won't make much of a difference if you have a noisy CPU heatsink fan. The TrueControl 550 does have a fan speed dial so that might help keep the noise down if your system doesn't run hot.

Your video card choice is the weak link in your system. If you can wait another month or two before putting together this system the price on the X800 Pro cards should drop (after the XTs come out) and that would be a better match for your system.

Edit: Fixed URL

[Ian]

I'm not gonna be overclocking stuff... really the only reason I'm building it is because I'd like to play Doom3 when it comes out. My current system is a 10 year old Compaq Presario... surprising how it works, isn't it?

So I'd either have to get a different motherboard, or a different CPU... can you tell me why the 2 I have now won't work well together?

And as for the graphics card, you don't think the 9800 Pro would get me by? I don't need to have the most expensive and godly system around, just good enough to run upcoming games with ease. FarCry/Doom3/HL2, stuff like that.

Thanks, keep it coming.

[Alluvian]

He did:

The A8V is a Socket 939 board and the slowest Socket 939 A64 right now is the 3500+ ($485 Newegg). So you are either going to have to upgrade your CPU or look for a Socket 754 board

He says your motherboard is Socket 939 and your CPU is Socket 754.  They have to match.

I have not checked his facts to verify.  If he is accurate they simply won't physically fit together.  Like square peg and a round hole.

[Sable Blaze]

Personally, if I was building now I"d go cheap. I wouldn't bother with Athlon64 and would go with older video solutions like the nVidia 5900FX or the ATI 9700PRO or the 128 meg 9800.

Bartons and the above vid cards should run games like DOOM3, HL2, whathaveyou just fine as long as you don't get weird with filters and 1600x1200 resolution. You'll save a ton of money.

If you must have an Athlon64, I'd wait. Wait for the PCIexpress and the vid cards compatiable with it. This will give you a viable upgrade path well into the future--or should, anyway.

A well built Barton today should last you at least a year. That's enough time for the new technology to shake itself out and for you to benefit from the mistakes of the early adopters.

[Trippy]

I'm not gonna be overclocking stuff... really the only reason I'm building it is because I'd like to play Doom3 when it comes out. My current system is a 10 year old Compaq Presario... surprising how it works, isn't it?

If games like Doom 3 and HL2 are your main motivation for building a new computer you may want to wait a bit longer before putting together something. Prices for CPUs may drop in the next two months and prices for video cards will almost certainly drop (new generation of GPUs from NVIDIA and ATI are trickling onto the market). You'll also have more choices as technologies like PCI Express video cards and motherboards become readily available.

So I'd either have to get a different motherboard, or a different CPU... can you tell me why the 2 I have now won't work well together?

Like Alluvian said they just don't fit together. Here's a table of available A64s and the sockets they use (packaging column):

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_9485_9487^10248,00.html

And as for the graphics card, you don't think the 9800 Pro would get me by? I don't need to have the most expensive and godly system around, just good enough to run upcoming games with ease. FarCry/Doom3/HL2, stuff like that.

Sure the 9800 Pro will work fine in those games as long as you aren't running with all the graphic settings maxed out. You can search around for Far Cry benchmarks to give yourself some idea how your setup will perform though it's likely Doom 3 and HL2 will stress your system even more. For example here's a benchmark from Firingsquad:

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_radeon_x800/page23.asp

Notice how at 1024 x 768 the 9800 Pro is basically able to keep up with the newest GPUs (this is with an A64 3400+ CPU). Also notice how poorly the NVIDIA 5950/5900 cards perform (I'll get to that in a little more detail below).

However if you max out AA and AF you can see the 9800 Pro lagging behind:

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_radeon_x800/page25.asp

Personally, if I was building now I"d go cheap. I wouldn't bother with Athlon64 and would go with older video solutions like the nVidia 5900FX or the ATI 9700PRO or the 128 meg 9800.

Bartons and the above vid cards should run games like DOOM3, HL2, whathaveyou just fine as long as you don't get weird with filters and 1600x1200 resolution. You'll save a ton of money.

I would not recommend dropping down to a 9700 Pro given that the 9800 Pro is faster and only around $10 more expensive (128 MB models compared). I also wouldn't recommend the NVIDIA 5900 if running HL2 well is important to you. That generation of NVIDIA GPUs has screwed up DirectX 9 support and benchmarks with an earlier version of the HL2 Source engine show the 5950/5900 GPU lagging way behind the 9800 XT/Pro. Though presumably Valve has continued to the optimize the NVIDIA 5950/5900 code path it's still not going to be as good as the ATI one. The latest 6800 NVIDIA cards shouldn't have that problem but those are obviously very expensive.

Edit: Fixed quote attribution

[Ian]

Well it looks like it'll be at least 2 more months before I get all the parts together. Slowly gathering money along with guitar stuff/car insureance and so on...

So waiting isn't much of an option, but I'm glad you guys think prices will drop soon.

Also, I've decided to go with the AMD Athlon 64-bit 3500 and an ASUS K8V SE Deluxe motherboard or something similar. (thanks for the help with the sockets, guys) I hear a lot about nVidia integrated sound being really good... should I look into a motherboard with the nVidia chipset?

Also after reading some ASUS stuff, I saw that they don't recommend ANY 1 GB DDR Ram strips... would 3 x 512mb DDR be efficient? I was planning on getting 1 x 1GB now and another later for 2 GB total.

As for graphics, I want to be able to run any upcoming games at their best performance... still think the 256mb 9800 Pro would get me by, or should I wait and get the X800 when it goes down in price some?

Finally, what's the PCI Express? Sounds fancy...

Once again, thanks so much guys, and keep it coming.

[Trippy]

Also, I've decided to go with the AMD Athlon 64-bit 3500 and an ASUS K8V SE Deluxe motherboard or something similar. (thanks for the help with the sockets, guys)

Alright now you are confusing me. You are switching to a Socket 939 CPU but also switching to a Socket 754 motherboard. Something's not right here :) Did you mean an Athlon 64 3400+?

I hear a lot about nVidia integrated sound being really good... should I look into a motherboard with the nVidia chipset?

The NVIDIA SoundStorm integrated audio, which I assume is what you are referring to, is not available on the nForce3 (Athlon 64) chipsets. On the nForce2 Athlon XP boards, SoundStorm is an awesome option *if* you can handle direct digital out from the motherboard (i.e. your speakers are hooked up to an external digital decoder). Otherwise, if you are using analog output only you are at the mercy of the digital to analog codec provided on the motherboard, typically some mediocre Realtek chip.

Also after reading some ASUS stuff, I saw that they don't recommend ANY 1 GB DDR Ram strips... would 3 x 512mb DDR be efficient? I was planning on getting 1 x 1GB now and another later for 2 GB total.

The US spec page for the K8V says it supports 1 GB DIMMs so I'm not sure where you are getting that information. If you are correct, then you'll need to find a motherboard that has 4 DIMM slots if you want 2 GB total in the future since the K8V only has 3. Since Socket 754 boards are single channel memory only it doesn't affect the memory bandwidth if you go with 1, 2, 3 or 4 DIMMs. On Socket 939 dual channel boards it's better to go with pairs (2 or 4 DIMMs).

As for graphics, I want to be able to run any upcoming games at their best performance... still think the 256mb 9800 Pro would get me by, or should I wait and get the X800 when it goes down in price some?

It's hard to say for sure at the moment since Doom 3 and HL2 have not been released yet. Making an educated guess, if you are not a "frame rate junkie" and are happy running at 1024 x 768 resolution, the 9800 Pro should run Doom 3 and HL2 acceptably well with all the graphic engine eye candy turned on (not talking about AA or AF). If however you want to run at 1600 x 1200 with 4xAA and 4xAF you are going to need something faster than a 9800 Pro.

Finally, what's the PCI Express? Sounds fancy...

It's the new replacement for PCI and AGP. At some point in the future motherboards will only have PCI Express slots just like you can't find new motherboards with ISA slots these days. Currently there is no advantage using a PCI Express video card compared to an AGP video card but later on there probably will be. The open question is how long will video card makers produce high-end video cards for AGP slots? It's possible that two years or so from now you won't be able to buy the latest greatest video card if you just have an AGP slot (analogous to not being able to get the fastest GPUs in a PCI version right now) so getting a motherboard with a PCI Express video card slot now should increase your upgrade options in the future.

It's the same with going with Socket 939 now instead of Socket 754. It's not clear how long AMD is going to be releasing high end chips on Socket 754. They may just relegate Socket 754 to the budget chips like the Sempron in the relatively near future.

[Ian]

I'm sorry Trippy... I did mean the Athlon 64 3500+... but after reading about motherboards back and forth today, my brain gave out. I meant to pair the 3500 with the ASUS A8V Deluxe.

As for the RAM situation, on the ASUS Motherboard details page, it didn't list any 1gb pieces. So I guess it isn't necessarilly true that they won't or will work. Point is, I plan on getting either 4 x 512mb PC3200... or 2 x 1gb PC3200. Oh, and with RAM, does it really matter who makes it? I mean is it really going to be THAT noticible if I don't dish out the extra $150 for Corsair RAM and just get some Kingston or generic RAM?

Thanks.

[Trippy]

As for the RAM situation, on the ASUS Motherboard details page, it didn't list any 1gb pieces. So I guess it isn't necessarilly true that they won't or will work. Point is, I plan on getting either 4 x 512mb PC3200... or 2 x 1gb PC3200.

It's easier to find 512 MB DIMMs than 1 GB DIMMs (especially matched pairs) so you probably want to plan on 4 x 512 MB.

Oh, and with RAM, does it really matter who makes it? I mean is it really going to be THAT noticible if I don't dish out the extra $150 for Corsair RAM and just get some Kingston or generic RAM?

It can make a difference if the more expensive RAM is also lower latency. If you are looking for the best performance what you want is memory that has the lowest latency timings with "2-2-2-5" being the lowest possible at the moment.

Here's a review comparing the performance of DDR 400 memory. One set is 2-2-2-5 (Corsair) and the other is 3-4-4-8 (Samsung):

http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=xms3200xl&page=1

If you go over to the game benchmarks you can see how the lower latency memory can have a measurable improvement in game performance. Whether or not you can actually notice this improvement while playing is debatable.

Dual channel memory is also more "fussy" than single channel so it does help to go with a reputable memory board maker and it also helps to get a "matched" pair like this:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-145-480&depa=1

or this:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-141-423&depa=1

Look for the "dual channel" tag in the description. Check the manufacturer's Web site if you aren't sure.

[Trippy]

We had an earlier discussion regarding computer buying advice which included an extended discussion on dual channel memory here:

http://www.f13.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=727

[Alluvian]

Just to give you an idea on what the economy path is currently, I picked up the following at newegg.com for about $600.

AMD Barton 2500+ CPU
ASUS A7N8X 2.0 motherboard
2x512mb Corsair Value Select DDR400 ram *
80 gig western digital drive with 8 meg cache
Nvidia GeForceFX 5900 XT (gainward golden sample) **
El cheapo case with 450 Watt power supply

My drives came out of extra drives from the other three systems I have.  With three systems (mine, my wifes, and a third for her artwork and internet browsing), top of the line for any of them is not a financial possibility for me.

*  I am running it at 333fsb, but this leaves me potential cheap upgrade to 400fsb by just swapping the cpu or even overclocking it..  I will probably never use that option, but decent ddr400 and good ddr333 were similarly priced.

** Easily overclockable past what the ultra runs at.  Warranty covers overclocking to 450 core and 780 memory.  Which is where I currently have it, and it does not even get very warm after a long day of splinter cell pandora tomorrow so I could go further.  Yes, yes, I KNOW it underperforms in pixel shader 2.0 but the ATI underperforms in 3d stereoscopic gaming.  I am not yet willing to drop that dream yet.  It is too damn awesome when it works.

[Sky]

Sure the 9800 Pro will work fine in those games as long as you aren't running with all the graphic settings maxed out.

The only game I had to pull back AA/AF from maximum settings (16x?) was Thief:DS, probably because of the complex shadowing. Far Cry I ran like buttah. Barton 3k/1GB PC3200/9800pro 256MB DDR2.

Well, Battlefield as well, but that's due to it's traditionally poor performance with /any/ AA applied to it.

I don't think the top end cards are worth the dough right now. Especially not with PCI-Express 16x right around the corner.

[Ian]

Ok, after many changes and constant thoughts, this is the new system lineup.

MB - ASUS A8V Deluxe
CPU - AMD Athlon 64 3500+
Video - ATI Radeon X800 Pro (waiting a month or two to see if prices drop)

I hear about the AMD Barton processor a lot... what do you guys think about that one?

[Trippy]

Ok, after many changes and constant thoughts, this is the new system lineup.

MB - ASUS A8V Deluxe
CPU - AMD Athlon 64 3500+
Video - ATI Radeon X800 Pro (waiting a month or two to see if prices drop)

Looks good. Here's some evidence that CPU prices will be dropping at the end of August:

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20040707PR202.html

While the article talks about Intel price cuts, AMD always matches Intel's drops on their comparable processor lines.

I hear about the AMD Barton processor a lot... what do you guys think about that one?

We talked a lot about the Barton in Alluvian's hardware post (same as the one I linked to above):

http://www.f13.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=727

The Athlon XP is an excellent budget system CPU though the new Celeron D actually looks pretty competitve unlike the previous version. However you look to be building a high mid-end or low high-end system and you just can't get that kind of performance from the Socket A platform (the socket the Athlon XP uses) right now though someday you might with a Socket A Sempron processor.

[Ian]

Trippy. You've been extremely helpful. Thanks.

RAM question:
I've decided on the RAM I'll be using. Corsair PC3200 DDR400 Value Select with CAS of 2.5. Now my question is... should I go with 2 x 512mb or 1 x 1gb to start with? I'll be adding a matching pair of whatever is selected after I decide, like if 2 x 512 now, another 2 x 512 later. Or 1 x 1gb now and 1 x 1gb later. The difference is only about $20 and price doesn't really matter to me, just as long as if it's better, it's worth the money.

Any thoughts?

Thanks guys.

[Trippy]

RAM question:
I've decided on the RAM I'll be using. Corsair PC3200 DDR400 Value Select with CAS of 2.5. Now my question is... should I go with 2 x 512mb or 1 x 1gb to start with? I'll be adding a matching pair of whatever is selected after I decide, like if 2 x 512 now, another 2 x 512 later. Or 1 x 1gb now and 1 x 1gb later. The difference is only about $20 and price doesn't really matter to me, just as long as if it's better, it's worth the money.

If you want the extra memory bandwidth of a dual channel setup you need to go 2 x 512.

I have not yet seen any Socket 939 benchmarks that compare single channel vs dual channel performance but we can make an estimate based on Socket 754 performance which is single channel only. A Socket 939 Athlon 64 3500+ with 512K L2 cache runs at the same clock speed (2.2 GHz) as a Socket 754 Athlon 64 3200+ with 512K L2 cache. That tells you that AMD is comfortable boosting the speed rating of the Socket 939 version 300 points (roughly 10%) over the Socket 754 version because of dual channel memory. Without it the speed rating would drop down to 3200+.

In other words you'll be slightly gimping your CPU if you go single channel. If you plan on adding the extra memory relatively soon after you get the system then it probably doesn't matter much if you only start with a single DIMM (your new system is going to be so much faster than what you have now even with single channel). If it's going to be a while, though, you should probably go dual channel from the the start (2 x 512).

[Ian]

Once again Trippy you provide quick informative... well... information haha.

My original plan was the 2 x 512mb and then another 2 x 512mb 1 month after. Something in that range...

I don't know how or where you get all the benchmark comparisons, but if you do find a dual-channel vs single let me know. They've been so helpful.

Quick question about power supplies. Should I use a 550w Antec True Power, or a 480w?

One more question, is there a suggested operating system for a 64 bit system?

Thanks again.



EDIT: PS and OS questions.