Nasty Bug in Thief: DS

[Morfiend]

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/thief-deadly-shadows/522170p1.html

Ion Storm's Thief: Deadly Shadows are plagued with a bug that drastically reduces the effectiveness of the game's vaunted AI. According to posts on the official Ion Storm forums, games saved at any difficulty level except "normal" will revert to "normal" difficulty when a saved game is loaded or a "zone line" that separates areas of a mission is crossed more than once.

For gamers who enjoy the Thief series, this bug is a devastating blow. A major portion of the gameplay of Thief: Deadly Shadows revolves around hiding from guards and sneaking past them in order to accomplish mission goals. By altering the AI perceptiveness and combat ability of the guards to normal, it means that both expert players and novices will be unable to play the game at a difficulty level that's appropriate for their skill level.

Ummm.. woops?

Seems console games are getting closer and closer to PC games as far as being bug ridden on release.
Nice that gamespy is calling them on it.

[Margalis]

A lot of XBox games have been buggy. Quite a few have reproducible freeze glitches. That's what happens when PC companies make console games for a console that is basically a PC.

[geldonyetich]

Interesting to note is that an X-Box Live patch won't be happening on the grounds that X-Box Live patches are generally reserved for online play fixes only.     Also interesting to note is that a total recall is an option they are considering.

Should be an easy enough PC patch, though, assuming there's anyone left to do it.

[Mesozoic]

Interesting to note is that an X-Box Live patch won't be happening on the grounds that X-Box Live patches are generally reserved for online play fixes only.

What I read there was that there would be no Live patch here because

1) The game is not Live-enabled, and
2) Even if it was enabled, MS is reluctant to allow any game "fix" patch through live, multiplayer or otherwise. Live is supposed to be for content, not fixes, and MS doesn't want its developers getting the PC "we'll fix it later, release now" attitude.  I think thats pretty godddamned enlightened for MS, personally.

That's what happens when PC companies make console games for a console that is basically a PC.

There is nothing particular about the XBox that makes it more bug prone that I know of.  The beauty of console development is that you know exactly what hardware the end user has.  This is true with any console, from the PS1 to the PS2, the GC, or the XBox.  You can test the early versions of the game on an XBox and know whether or not it works, rather than having to account for 1000 shades of hardware configs. There's nothing about adding a HD or an onboard ethernet card to a console that spawns bugs in Thief AI - its just poor testing.

[Alluvian]

Well, that explains why I thought the game was so damn easy.  I save a LOT in thief type games if they let me.  I lke the game but hate redoing parts of it because of tiny mistakes, so I save before most difficult knockouts.  I rarely used them, but quicksave is so easy and convenient I hit it a lot.

As it is, having apparently played most of it on the equivalent of normal mode even though I THOUGHT I was on the third setting (difficult I think they called it) the game lasted no more than a weekend.

I really wish short games like this cost about $20-$30.  That is really all they are worth.  They are so disposable.  All that would do though is make the devs fill them with even more useless filler.  And Thief3 already had a ton of filler sneaking across the same parts of town dozens of time with different enemies that amounted to little more than a re-skin.


I do agree with MS's decision not to patch this through live and do a recall though.  It is an expensive reminder that testing is important.  Good for them.  I wonder who pays for the recall?  In my mind it would be whoever did the testing, so probably split between MS and Eidos?

[HaemishM]

I think the point he was trying to make about PC game makers making games for consoles is that PC game makers SUCK ASS at testing as a general rule. PC Game makers have become so reliant on the ease of Internet patching that they fall down completely on their asses when it comes to rigorous testing needed for a console game. The sad part is that with the limited hardware set on the console, the X-Box version should have been much easier to test.

[Sky]

Jesus Alluvian. A weekend? Did you jog through it?

I've only just finished the missions where you steal from the hammerites and pagans. Then again, I ghost through and try for 100% on levels, so it takes a bit longer. You mention saving before the most difficult knockouts, leading me to believe you took the quick and easy way of knocking out anyone you wanted to.

I like to squeeze the value out of a $40 game, not race through it.

I think the problem might be your rapid consumption of games, because I've found Thief 3 to be a decent enough game, and worth the money I paid for it, this bug aside (I thought it was pretty easy, too).

[Margalis]

I think the point he was trying to make about PC game makers making games for consoles is that PC game makers SUCK ASS at testing as a general rule.

Yes, that was my point.

PC hardware has always been an easy excuse for PC game makers. The fact is, the vast majority of PC game bugs are not hardware related, they are logical/programming bugs like this one.

It's very easy to port PC games to xbox, or co-develop them. So what you get is a bunch of people making XBox games who have PC-level quality standards. That really isn't the fault of the XBox.

Though, there may be some architecture issues that make it more error prone. The new Mortal Kombat had some freeze glitches on XBox that didn't exist on other platforms, as did a few other games. (Can't recall which ones) Might be related to the Hard Drive and blocking IO or something...

[Sky]

PC version owners should eyeball this thread.

Someone's produced an unofficial fix already. Some great quotes in the thread, imo:

Wow. We must be the only gaming community that uses a memory-hack program to make the game HARDER.

But let me be clear -- map size DID involve compromise. Man, what we wouldn't have given for a lousy 128 megs on the Xbox! But the tradeoff we made for more map loads and smaller maps was a better balanced, better tuned game -- because we only had to tune, balance and debug once. - Warren Spector

Kindo's post has some good info on modifying the .ini for more customized difficulty, as well.

[Alluvian]

Jesus Alluvian. A weekend? Did you jog through it?

I've only just finished the missions where you steal from the hammerites and pagans. Then again, I ghost through and try for 100% on levels, so it takes a bit longer. You mention saving before the most difficult knockouts, leading me to believe you took the quick and easy way of knocking out anyone you wanted to.

I like to squeeze the value out of a $40 game, not race through it.

I think the problem might be your rapid consumption of games, because I've found Thief 3 to be a decent enough game, and worth the money I paid for it, this bug aside (I thought it was pretty easy, too).

No, and I even did most of the sidequests as well.  I just found the game kind of a joke.  Guard hearing is next to NOTHING behind them (on what I guess was normal difficulty now)  I could literally run up behind them and wack them with the blackjack, even on stone.  Then the body just has to be tossed anywhere even vaguely dim and nobody will see it.  Except in town, the civilians are MUCH more perceptive than the guards.  It does not take long until the civilians are being killed left and right in the streets and the AI blames you for it anyway.  After that there is no point to sneaking in the streets anymore.  I still did, but it felt really pointless.

I did the little side things like retrieving the dagger from the armory, stashing the body at the docks, doing the tree sidequest, getting most of the scarabs and cornerstones, clearing up the hammerite crypt, etc...

I didn't try for 100% loot, but I got all three special loots in all but 2 levels (museum and one other I forget, maybe the boat, I don't remember any loot on that mission) and 80%+ loot in every single level.  Plus a lot of random stealing from houses in the city.

The only thing I never did was I don't know how to get into the darn prison.  Is that in the game?  You can see the blue fluff of a zoneline past the gate but I can't get in.  I didn't try that hard, I figured the storyline would take me there... it didn't.

I played about 6 hours on the friday I got it, then about 10 hours saturday and sunday, and I was at that point of the game. I think I took a few days off (don't recall) and then finished the game in about 30 minutes more after that.  Each mission only took about an hour or 2 (a lot less for some) and there were not that many in the game.

I guess I don't understand what you mean savoring.  Am I supposed to intentionally play slow?  I certainly didn't rush the game by any means.  It is just that there was not a single thing in the game that really slowed me down.  The only way I could have gone slower would have been to crouch for no reason for the entire game (guards hearing you normally works to your ADVANTAGE by moving them out of place while you sneak by) or by actually not playing.

[geldonyetich]

No, and I even did most of the sidequests as well. I just found the game kind of a joke. Guard hearing is next to NOTHING behind them (on what I guess was normal difficulty now) I could literally run up behind them and wack them with the blackjack, even on stone.

Hmm, that's odd.  I'm on normal difficulty and the guards will notice me if I even *walk* behind them (usng the shift key).   I have to use my uber-slow sneaking mode (ctrl) to get close enough to blackjack them without them noticing.

Then the body just has to be tossed anywhere even vaguely dim and nobody will see it.

Also different than my own experiences.   Of course, I made the mistake of stashing some of my bodies where people *walk right on top of them*, so I guess that's technically going above the call of what lousy AI would not be capable of.

[Alluvian]

Well, if they bump into it they are going to see it no matter how dark.  I was talking about not being on the direct path.

And as far as guards noticing me running up, many did at the last second, but didn't turn around in time and still went napping like a baby on the first strike.  Just seemed to be an issue of timing.  I would usually sneak up to get close and then toggle sneak off for the last 5 feet or so (I never really used any movement except crouch and run).  It was not enough time for them to alert enough to avoid the knockout.  On carpet you can do ballet behind them it seems.  I ran up to a guy and missed him twice while running on carpet once and he still didn't notice me.

I enjoyed the game, but it got pretty repetitive at the end when I was spending about as much time walking unconsious bodies around as anything.  The upped the number of guards, but they didn't do anything else to make them more difficulty.  just more guards to blackjack and move.  The only trick I had to learn midgame was the blackjack on the move timing.  Once I figure out how deaf they were the game became easy and I didn't have to wait for them to stop anymore.  Just smack them as they went by.

[geldonyetich]

PC patch is out.

[Daydreamer]

To get into the prison you have to be 'killed' by guard NPCs in the city.  I don't think all the guards work, but most do.  The person I talked to got ganked in the Docks on the way to the Abysal Gale, I believe.  From what I hear its a half-sized map (1 zone) you do without your items/weapons for the most part, i.e. all sneaky-sneaky-stealy-stealy.

Also, I hope to god the level designer petition is answered. I think the engine on this game gives it the best potential for fan created levels of any Thief game so far.

[Johnson101]

its just a Grade B game anyways

[Arcadian Del Sol]

It doesn't matter to me WHY XBox games are prone to patches, or who is to blame. What matters to me is having games without bugs.

Which means I'm going to pass on XBox when the next generation of consoles come out - I'm not going to buy perma-broken games from half-wit publishers who can't be bothered to sell working games, even when the hardware is a total controlled environment.

If Microsoft wants me to buy XBox Next, they can start by generating a list of "bad developers" and removing them from XBox development.