Reinstalled Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast

[Paelos]

I hadn't played it in a while, and after playing both Kotors, I thought I'd go back to it and give it a second look.

For those that have played both Kotor and this, I ask, why couldn't Kotor's combat have been like this? There are obviously levels of force skills applied in Outcast, but they are applied based on a moving along the stages instead of leveling up in experience. To me the hack and slash style and FPS skill of Outcast could have easily been put into Kotor, making it like a new Deus Ex type of game. However, Outcast also has some of the shittiest level designs I've ever seen in a game, and I think that hurt it's chances of having an part of it implemented in other Jedi games.

Thoughts?

[Strazos]

I didn't mind the way progression worked in the KotOR games. I don't think a change/lack of change would make much of a difference.

It may be somewhat more difficult to do it the Jedi Knight way, as the KotOR games were somewhat non-linear.

I only played Jedi Knight 2 briefly...I think...did it allow for specializing in certain powers, like putting more ranks in particular powers? That might be one reason for going with XP selective advancement over linear advancement.

[Paelos]

The original Jedi Knight did allow for putting skills in things, but Outcast didn't. You just gained powers as you advanced through the game. The only reason I say that is it's a lot more fun to jump around and come down in the middle of a bunch of stormtroopers, do a whirlwind slash, and force choke the guy near the alarm. You knew that was you in control and not a stupid autoattack. I just think that adds to the game.

[Rasix]

Thoughts?

Since I played KOTOR2 on the XBOX, my answer is "no".

[Shockeye]

Paelos, give Jedi Academy a try. Dual lightsabers, double-ended lightsabers like Darth Maul and all sorts of force goodness.

[HaemishM]

To me the hack and slash style and FPS skill of Outcast could have easily been put into Kotor...

Except then they couldn't have reused the Neverwinter Nights engine almost wholesale and would have had to write another engine entirely.

[Jain Zar]

The only way they could have improved upon KOTOR's combat would have been to make it turn based.

[Kail]

However, Outcast also has some of the shittiest level designs I've ever seen in a game, and I think that hurt it's chances of having an part of it implemented in other Jedi games.

In my opinion, the level design for Jedi Knight II: Jedi Academy has some extremely nice sections (and some bad ones; the quality is a bit inconsistent, but leagues better than Outcast on average) and some other nice features.  If you liked Outcast, you might want to try Jedi Academy.

Personally, though, I wouldn't say the combat in JK2 is just plain better than the combat in KotOR.  I think that each system has it's strengths, and each system has it's weaknesses.  JK2, for example, has a ton of difficulty making interesting boss fights.   I do agree that my dream Star Wars game would be closer to JK2 than it would be to KotOR in terms of control, but I think JK2's system needs a lot of refinement before it can be anything but a Stormtrooper slaughtering simulation.

[Paelos]

Yes, I agree the system needs work. I'm not a DnD RPG purest at all. I hate auto-attack, I hate turns, and I'm not a fan of Neverwinter Nights at all. All things considered if I had to say what my favorite game of all time is, it would be Deus Ex. Since that game though, NOTHING else that I've found has come out that remotely captures the type of system that game had. The worst part about that is that Deux Ex could be easily improved upon. It was a very linear game despite the options you had to complete each task. They could have opened up the game in following versions, but they didn't. Others could have come in and put RPG elements into a great FPS system, but they didn't.

That's why when I play two games like Kotor and Jedi Knight, and I notice that seperately they have what I'm looking for, I ponder why the leap hasn't been made to combine them?

[Cheddar]

This was one of the games that got me through the whole Iraq invasion.  It will always have a special place in my heart!

And Jedi Academy is pure love as well!

[Sky]

The only way they could have improved upon KOTOR's combat would have been to make it turn based.

Well, it pretty much was. I rikey real time games that let me pause to give orders. KotOR rocked, but people have scared me away from the sequel.

[Rasix]

The only way they could have improved upon KOTOR's combat would have been to make it turn based.

Well, it pretty much was. I rikey real time games that let me pause to give orders. KotOR rocked, but people have scared me away from the sequel.

It's for the best.  I can't recommend that game to anyone with the ending it has.  Rest of the game was fantastic, IMO.

[Ironwood]

I will teach you the ways of the force and the mastery of unarmed combat.

Yes, in my pants.

Nope, I can't wear that outfit that I normally fight in all the time when we're on planets and stuff.  We're on a ship, so I'm in my pants.

Yes, it is a fetching bra.  I'm glad you like it because I felt that this training would just come off as a gratuitous display of marketing to teens and pre teens.

(Oddly that's all I remember about the game.  It sucked hard.)

[Azazel]

The only way they could have improved upon KOTOR's combat would have been to make it turn based.

There was a toggle (maximum auto-pause or something) which turned it into almost that. Not YGIG, but round-by-round/initiative.

Wasn't I pleased when I finished the game, and the end cinema refused to work properly! I saved my game so that one day, I could view it. I've got new drivers now, come to think of it, but that would mean reinstalling the whole damned thing...

[HaemishM]

That's why when I play two games like Kotor and Jedi Knight, and I notice that seperately they have what I'm looking for, I ponder why the leap hasn't been made to combine them?

Other than not being FPS, Jade Empire has done a good job of combining the pulse-pounding actiony combat of an FPS with the RPG style of combat and skills building.

[Azazel]

How is combat done in Jade Empire? I've been considering this one for awhile.. but not sure.

[Rasix]

How is combat done in Jade Empire? I've been considering this one for awhile.. but not sure.

Fable like.

[schild]

How is combat done in Jade Empire? I've been considering this one for awhile.. but not sure.

Fable like.

Only with more button mashing, less control, and less strategy.

The story is better than Fable's though.

[Kitsune]

JK2 has a significantly badass combat system.  Outcast also has absolutely shitty level design.  They fuck you over, hard, with their shitty levels for the first third of the game.  The levels are still kinda shitty in the rest of the game, too, but by then you have enough force jump power to navigate them without too much hassle.

Also, the saber combat in JK2's multiplayer got nerfed all to shit about four months after the game's release.  People complained that HAVING A LASER SWORD GO THROUGH THEIR BODY was doing too much damage, so it was cut waaaaay back.  Originally, one solid hit with a lightsaber could kill a person outright in multiplayer, which I rather approved of; after the patches it felt more like beating someone to death with a wiffle bat.

There was an element of tactics to it before the patches, each lightsaber stance had different swings, and there was something of an art to picking just the right swing at the right time to completely stab the hell out of the person you were fighting.  After the patch, landing the perfect killing blow became impossible, so you pretty much just swung the sword around like an idiot until the person you were fighting took enough hits to die.

Jedi Academy kinda wound up muddying the water with all of the extra sabers.  The dual-wielded sabers and the double-bladed saber both involve a lot of swinging with each click, which means that the player doesn't have a lot of control with them.  Fighting with one saber meant that you could plan a single diagonal swing, low left to high right, for example.  You knew precisely what the saber was going to do when you clicked the mouse.  The new sabers, on the other hand, would go through a complete acrobatic routine, slashing in just about every direction, making it difficult to really focus the attack.  They looked cool, but I felt like a spaz whenever I was fighting with them.

Meanwhile, I always took a guilty pleasure out of abusing the hell out of force push and force pull.  I threw so many poor bastards down pits that I just lost count of 'em.

[Ironwood]

I'm fairly sure there was an exploit with the strong stance backstab tho, wasn't there ?  It became unbeatable or something.  I remembered getting skewered more times than I cared to off some l33t little fuck.

[Strazos]

Um, if you're getting backstabbed with a lightsaber...I don't really think there's much room to complain.

Also, on Jade...I loved the game...but the end boss fight was....comical.



***Slight Spoiler***





"Thousand Cuts!" "Paralyzing Palm!"...occasionally "Spirit Thief"....rinse and repeat....for about 10 minutes. I was very surprised the end boss was not simply made immune to such hold effects.

[HaemishM]

Spoiler:

Jade Empire was a lot easier if you got the Advanced Crimson Tears style. Even only moderately beefed up, that combined with Stone Immortal or Paralyzing Palm made most encounters pretty manageable.

[Kail]

There was an element of tactics to it before the patches, each lightsaber stance had different swings, and there was something of an art to picking just the right swing at the right time to completely stab the hell out of the person you were fighting.

Hmm.... I played this game pretty hardcore at launch, and I don't know if I agree with that.  Three things jump out at me:

1- Yeah, you could do a diagonal slash as opposed to a horizontal slash if you wanted to... but so what?  It's not like any of these were significantly more or less difficult to block than others.  Why would you choose one over the other?  I never, ever, in my entire time playing that game, thought "oh, if only I'd done a left straight slash instead of the right rising diagonal, it would have worked" or anything like that.  The only attacks that did significantly affect the balance of combat were the specials, and even then it wasn't a matter of choosing the right move for the situation as much as it was doing stuff like charging backwards at your enemy so that you could use your backwards strike.

2- Which slash you used was determined (mostly) by the direction you were moving when you hit the button.  Players in JK2 run at Quake speeds, which means you can be in and out of strike range in half a second if you time it right.  In my experience, I generally did (for example) the strafing slash because I was strafing when I hit the slash button, not because of any tactical advantage the strafing slash might have had.  Mobility is all powerful in that game, and if you're trying to use specific strikes, you're going to be limited in how you move, which can be a major handicap.

3- Heavy lightsaber stance, if I recall, does the most damage and goes through blocks.  There's a jumping special with that stance that's a one hit kill if it connects.  Heavy stance was what I used 90% of the time, and so did the people I fought against.  Assuming they weren't going for the special, people would start the swing, run into range, hit, and then run back out of range while they recovered.  That was about nine-tenths of all the strategy I ever needed to use in lightsaber combat. 

So, I really don't agree that it's a deep, strategic fighting system or anything.  It's fun in single player, because you get to chop up stormtroopers, but it's not, y'know, Soul Calubur or anything.

[Kitsune]

Um, if you're getting backstabbed with a lightsaber...I don't really think there's much room to complain.

No, the move wasn't that the person was stabbing the target in the back, but that the person was stabbing their saber backwards and impaling the target.  As a result, some people were running around backwards like a pack of retards, constantly stabbing their sabers behind themselves.  If you actually got hit by the attack it was pretty much a one-shot kill, which is why they were doing it, but I always found it easy enough to just roll out of their path and stab them in the face as they passed.

I tended more towards medium than heavy stance because medium had some good attacks and was easier on timing than heavy.  Light stance was only used against people with guns, until I got close enough to pull their weapon away, push them off a ledge, or some combination of the two.

[Paelos]

Mutliplayer FPS is with lightsabers is for tards, imo. But that's just because it's an LCD bitchfight concluding with who can fight the most exploitable move and repeat it.

[Ironwood]

Um, if you're getting backstabbed with a lightsaber...I don't really think there's much room to complain.

No, the move wasn't that the person was stabbing the target in the back, but that the person was stabbing their saber backwards and impaling the target.  As a result, some people were running around backwards like a pack of retards, constantly stabbing their sabers behind themselves.  If you actually got hit by the attack it was pretty much a one-shot kill, which is why they were doing it, but I always found it easy enough to just roll out of their path and stab them in the face as they passed.

I tended more towards medium than heavy stance because medium had some good attacks and was easier on timing than heavy.  Light stance was only used against people with guns, until I got close enough to pull their weapon away, push them off a ledge, or some combination of the two.

What he said.  Perhaps Backstab was the wrong choice of word, but I knew what I meant.  It was really fucking silly.

[Cyrrex]

The same backstab thing was done by Force pulling the target toward you (which caused him to lay prone at your feet) and then you would simplly turn your back on him and do the backwards attack.  It was stupid, but at least it didn't LOOK as stupid as the people who ran around  backwards.

Another trick that I loved before they sent out the very first patch was that you could begin choking somone in your line of sight, and then immediately run around a wall/corner to get out of LOS...the choke would still work, but attempts to break the choke (Force push?) did not.  Then the choke would wear off, causing the target to be disoriented for a few seconds, where you could just run up and unload on him with a blaster.  Guaranteed kill if you were quick enough.  Fun times.

[Mortriden]

A fun little trick in Academy is to choke them then chuck your saber at them.  Works well on most folks.

[sinij]

Thoughts?

Since I played KOTOR2 on the XBOX, my answer is "no".

* FROTH *

[sinij]

*FROTH*

[Strazos]

I personally liked KotOR2, even if the final hour or so of gameplay was pretty lackluster.

[Tale]

My Jade Empire experience: bought game, drove home in eager anticipation, inserted disc, Xbox died. If it's one of the Xbox titles compatible with the 360, somday I might get to play it :(

[Jimbo]

I've lost 14 lbs since January due to KOTOR II  :-D  It is great to play while riding my exercise bike, and since I set it up as turn based, it works great so I don't loose my pace as I play.

Heck, I am constantly trying new ideas on KOTOR II, having found out that you can make a diffrence as a male or female character and your choices, plus I have found a few level up bugs, and a few ways to make a ton of cash, so it is being played a couple of hours each day as I work out.

Hmm...have thought of getting an ellipitcal bike, but then I won't be able to game as much on it...but heck, then I could get a TIVO or whatever the heck Time Warner Cable uses, and actually see Futurama, BSG NE, SG-1, Myth Busters, or buy some DVD's...Samuria Jack and Time Squad are just dying to be watched by my son and I.

If Jade Empire has turn based goodness like KOTOR I and II, I will have to get it, that or get the TV out for my computer and play Toontown as I work out.

[Riggswolfe]

Jade Empire is more actiony than KOTR I & 2. Still an RPG but more emphasis on action since they're not trying to mimic a turn based pen and paper game.

I also seem to be one of the few people who didn't mind the end to KOTR2. It made me think of Empire Strikes Back for some reason. I viewed it as sort of a cliffhanger ending.

Spoiler
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Since the character leaves in the end to go join Revan. At least that was my interpretation of the end. Off to the Unknown Regions!