Targeted Melee: No More Hotkeys

[shiznitz]

I have no idea if this is realiztic for an MMOG, but could a melee combat system use a location-based targeting system to give the illusion of interactive combat? This came to me after reading Haemish's latest anti-hotkey regurgitation.

Attacking becomes as simple as clicking on a part of a mob. If I click on the knee, my character initiates a low attack. If I click on the head, my character initiates a high attack. The attack animation would depend on the weapon-type. Axes slash, spears thrust, swords do either, etc. The wrinkle would be that the vector of the attack, i.e. the angle between the character and the mob when the attack is initiated would result in different attack animations. Clicking on an orc's sword arm from a flanking position would do something different than from a frontal position.

This could also be used to account for height differentials between mobs and PCs. A troll character fighting a gnome NPC would use a lot more overhead animations compared to a wood elf attacking a giant, for example. However, if the wood elf is using terrain to reduce the height differential, then an overhand blow becomes possible. It all comes down to the vector of the attack relative to the target.

Is this too processor intensive for current machines? With current DikuMUD combat engines, the processors are doing algebra - albeit a lot of it simlutaneously. I know vector calculations are exponentially more complicated but that is what computers do best, right? Could the vectoring be done on the client machine?

Is there a single player game that does this?

[Samwise]

Is this too processor intensive for current machines?

Not in the slightest.

Could the vectoring be done on the client machine?

No reason it couldn't - client machine does the vector whatever and then translates the result to a "hotkey" that it sends the server.  Or something.

I think there are two big obstacles to this sort of system:
1) You either need different animations for every single combination of position, attack angle, and weapon, or you need fiendishly clever algorithms to generate those animations on the fly (like Spore's procedural animation system but more complex).
2) You need to make the interface not too twitchy, because most MMOG players won't stand for anything that requires a modicum of coordination.

[|3o3dha]

I have no idea if this is realistic for an MMOG, but could a melee combat system use a location-based targeting system to give the illusion of interactive combat? This came to me after reading Hamish's latest anti-hotkey regurgitation.

Attacking becomes as simple as clicking on a part of a mob. If I click on the knee, my character initiates a low attack. If I click on the head, my character initiates a high attack. The attack animation would depend on the weapon-type. Axes slash, spears thrust, swords do either, etc. The wrinkle would be that the vector of the attack, i.e. the angle between the character and the mob when the attack is initiated would result in different attack animations. Clicking on an orc's sword from a flanking position would do something different than from a frontal position.

This could also be used to account for height differentials between mobs and PCs. A troll character fighting a gnome NPC would use a lot more overhead animations compared to a wood elf attacking a giant, for example. However, if the wood elf is using terrain to reduce the height differential, then an overhand blow becomes possible. It all comes down to the vector of the attack relative to the target.

Is this too processor intensive for current machines? With current DikuMUD combat engines, the processors are doing algebra - albeit a lot of it simultaneously. I know vector calculations are exponentially more complicated but that is what computers do best, right? Could the vectoring be done on the client machine?

Is there a single player game that does this?

Gothic1 & 2 use a similar system, but not as complex. Your attacks are basically directed with the arrow key's, press left->left swing, and so on.(forward key -> move up and attack, etc) Depending on the previous swings and the position of the sword at the time of the attack, you execute a particular attack. More complex attack combinations open up once you spend enough points in the skill. I don't know if it can be implemented in a MP environment, but is sure would make melee more intresting. Combat tends to be a combination of attack and defence moves. Maybe it should go a little slower for MP, but it's a decent system IMHO.

[shiznitz]

[2) You need to make the interface not too twitchy, because most MMOG players won't stand for anything that requires a modicum of coordination.

The vectors could be "grouped" into pie slices around the target so one isn't dealing with infinite permutations. The goal is to get the player to click on his target instead of a hotkey at the bottom of the screen. No reason the keyboard couldn't be brought into the mix: crouch + slash, jump + stab, etc.

[Righ]

I've already said this once today, but it bears repeating: the MMOG market is a tiny specialized niche. There's no point in trying to either trying to differentiate between players in it or cater to them when designing a novel game.

So "most MMOG players won't stand for" doesn't matter. Write an online game that brings in more people than the number you are discarding. Shouldn't be too challenging to hit a target other than nerdy achiever oriented spreadsheet bores. Everything else about writing a game is the tricky part.

[Yegolev]

Is there a single player game that does this?

Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem, on the GameCube.  In fact, right at the start you are playing "shotgun vs zombie" using this system.

[tazelbain]

Why is clicking prefered?  You have just moved the autoattack to the head of the players.  Maybe it could be a click and hold to do a gesture. Although, players will probably macro it to make hot-keys.

And the high-low attacks thing always reminds me on Zelda 2.

If I was trying to add players skill to MMOG, I'd want to reward player's abilty to think tactical not their abilty to click the mouse button.

[Margalis]

Why not copy what works?

In fighting games, the most advanced character vs. character games, you can't target specific areas like that. What problem does that solve?

If you want to get rid of hotkeys just make the fighting like it is in games that are dedicated to fighting. With 4 buttons in Tekken I can do 100 moves and the fighting is much more complex.

There are plenty of fighting games that play well over the net so latency is not an excuse. (Hell, I made one myself about 6 years ago and Kaillera/zbattle will make any MAME arcade game into a networked game) But even if you don't want an actual fighting game as far as timing you can still you the same general setup, inputs, etc.

Edit: To distill my point "guys fighting each other" is one of the oldest concepts in video games and only in MMORPGs does it require rows and rows of hotkeys.

[WayAbvPar]

1) Design an interesting game.
2) Buy Taleworlds.
3) Use M&B combat system, tweaked to add magic.
4) Don moneyhat.

[Strazos]

How would you add twitch to magic then?

[Yegolev]

1) Design an interesting game.
2) Buy Taleworlds.
3) Use M&B combat system, tweaked to add magic.
4) Don moneyhat.

I like this better.  Might help prevent elving, too.

[tazelbain]

M&B isn't MMO, right?

[shiznitz]

That leads to the Big Question of the Day: Can a fantasy MMOG without magic sell?

[bhodi]

That leads to the Big Question of the Day: Can a fantasy MMOG without magic sell?

I won't play one without it.

[Lantyssa]

That leads to the Big Question of the Day: Can a fantasy MMOG without magic sell?

Will a sci-fi MMOG without magic sell either?  Granted I haven't tried the numbers some of you have, but every one I have ever played had it as well. :(

[WayAbvPar]

How would you add twitch to magic then?

Total guess, but I would think an easy way to do it would be to use wands, totems, and other equipable items. If you don't have the item out, you can't cast the spell. Multi-use items (ones that can be used in more than one spell) would be phat lewtz. Then just make casting a spell like anything else in the combat system- you either have to be close enough to hit them physically (heal/touch spells) or aim and hit them ala missile weapons. The better the spell/spellcaster's ability, the easier it is to hit.

[|3o3dha]

How would you add twitch to magic then?

Total guess, but I would think an easy way to do it would be to use wands, totems, and other equipable items. If you don't have the item out, you can't cast the spell. Multi-use items (ones that can be used in more than one spell) would be phat lewtz. Then just make casting a spell like anything else in the combat system- you either have to be close enough to hit them physically (heal/touch spells) or aim and hit them ala missile weapons. The better the spell/spellcaster's ability, the easier it is to hit.

Wouldn't it be better if magic wasnt melee with a different stick?
It would be nicer to play a game where the caster experience would be a whole new game by it's self. I was thinking "harry poter" -style casting, you have to compete a rune(sequence of mouse movements) in order to cast. It obviously would need more fine tuning, but it could be a whole mini game by itself.

Or you could use the "melee" type combat but add another non-combat layer to magic. Mini-game unlocking of items and such.

I don't know, I just think that if you implement magic, it shouldn't be just melee with another skin.

[WayAbvPar]

I think a more interesting magic system would be great- I was just trying to come up with something that would fit into the Mount and Blade combat engine without a ton of extra work.

[Soln]

1) Design an interesting game.
2) Buy Taleworlds.
3) Use M&B combat system, tweaked to add magic.
4) Don moneyhat.

I like this better.  Might help prevent elving, too.

you win, thread over.


Seriously, there are some issues needed to help players with twitch melee, but it should be done. 

[Yegolev]

I will just add that I agree most "magic" is just a mundane attack with particles.  In that vein, it's more of a style decision.  I think M&B is fantastic without particles and the style and theming is very enjoyable.  Having magic that is essentially a gun or crossbow with, say, a runestone model and sparkly butterflies instead of bullets/bolts is simply a stylistic choice.  I submit that twitch combat mechanics really have zip-shit to do with what 3D model you use for the Longsword +1, other than the necessary visual feedback as to whether you stabbed your enemy or not.

I'm done with high-fantasy persistent worlds.  Even though I know it's mostly a visual thing.  I'd rather fire lasers that draw from a capacitor pool than shoot fireballs that draw from a mana pool even though I know they are basically the same thing.  Call me shallow if you want.

Also, I think this wins the thread:

If you want to get rid of hotkeys just make the fighting like it is in games that are dedicated to fighting. With 4 buttons in Tekken I can do 100 moves and the fighting is much more complex.

[Xilren's Twin]

I agree with the premise, but to go in a totally different direction, I'd ALSO love to see a much more turn based or phased turn mmorpg where you can control a party of toons in order to have much more tactical decisions.  Why must every mmorpg only be about single contolled avatar with "real time" looking combat?

Niche of a niche, where for art thou?

Xilren

[Krakrok]

Patent DikuMUD and then sue all the MMOG clones of it for moneyhats. Method patents are the new rage. Oh and then don't grant any more DikuMMOG patent licences.

---

Darklands did medieval without magic. Alchemy (throwing or drinking potions) gives you a non-magic magic system. I don't really have anything else than that to add other than yeah more twitch multicharacter non-clone MMOGs please.

[Numtini]

Wasn't this how combat started out in Asheron's Call? With three zones to attack? But people figured out autocombat while spamming drains was more efficient?

I don't think a fantasy MMO could survive without magic. I think the best you could do would be something like Runequest's Glorantha, where the magic is ubiquitous, melee oriented, and low powered.

[Tebonas]

Darklands had both Alchemy and Invoking Saints for Clericlike effects. Its based on the real believes of that time, but I wouldn't call being able to walk on water and cursing enemies no magic.

[Mumbles]

1) You either need different animations for every single combination of position, attack angle, and weapon, or you need fiendishly clever algorithms to generate those animations on the fly (like Spore's procedural animation system but more complex).

I suggest everyone take a look at the new Indiana Jones game being developed. It does away with preset combat animations entirely by basically using a ragdoll-calculated-on-the-fly system for all of the character's movements, even before death. IGN has a decent article explaining how it works. So yeah, hopefully this kind of thing becomes standard soon.

Niche of a niche, where for art thou?

I've been dreaming about the same sort of thing for years. Except not turn based, that's just terrible. It's surprising how there isn't any kind of strategic or tactical MMOG yet.

[Megrim]

How would you add twitch to magic then?

I was always fond of the Black & White system. Just make players draw "runes" with their mouse, adding more and more figures the higher the spell level. Makes sense too, since magic is supposed to be about rigorous mental aptitude and memory training.

[koboshi]

I agree with the premise, but to go in a totally different direction, I'd ALSO love to see a much more turn based or phased turn mmorpg where you can control a party of toons in order to have much more tactical decisions.  Why must every mmorpg only be about single contolled avatar with "real time" looking combat?

Niche of a niche, where for art thou?

Xilren

bang howdy!

[JoeTF]

Tactica Online is in development.

Now - a question for topic starter: How do you defend?
If you want to go to such a micro scale, you should try to think over how player can counter and  defend from such targeted attacks.

Fighting games: Do you recall a single fighting game for more than 2 people or more than one plane*?


*I do recall and, but unfortunately I forgot what it was called - can someone help here?:)

[Margalis]

There was an old game called "Kuckleheads" that had a bunch of people fighting at once. Also a recent Guilty Gear game was 4 players. The old Yu Yu Hakashu (sp?) was also 4 players, and Guardian Heroes on the Saturn had up to 6 IIRC.

"bang howdy!" - is not a massive game. It's a tactics game with a matchmaking lobby.

[Arnold]

How would you add twitch to magic then?

Total guess, but I would think an easy way to do it would be to use wands, totems, and other equipable items. If you don't have the item out, you can't cast the spell. Multi-use items (ones that can be used in more than one spell) would be phat lewtz. Then just make casting a spell like anything else in the combat system- you either have to be close enough to hit them physically (heal/touch spells) or aim and hit them ala missile weapons. The better the spell/spellcaster's ability, the easier it is to hit.

Wouldn't it be better if magic wasnt melee with a different stick?
It would be nicer to play a game where the caster experience would be a whole new game by it's self. I was thinking "harry poter" -style casting, you have to compete a rune(sequence of mouse movements) in order to cast. It obviously would need more fine tuning, but it could be a whole mini game by itself.

Or you could use the "melee" type combat but add another non-combat layer to magic. Mini-game unlocking of items and such.

I don't know, I just think that if you implement magic, it shouldn't be just melee with another skin.

Sounds like Mobius on the Apple II.  You had to keep a dot (which moved in random directions) inside a square, for a certain amount of time, to cast a spell.

[pxib]

Modern fighting games like Guilty Gear and Soul Caliber are indeed the bar which computer game combat must reach and eventually raise, but they are usually 1v1 for several good reasons. Killing hordes of opponents simultaneously because you're a badass may feel great, but generally getting ganged up on sucks. While AIs can avoid focused fire to keep the fun factor, humans aren't so kind... and it's a rare, sick soul who actually longs to be ganked. Procedural animation is also far easier when you only have to dodge, block, or parry attacks from one direction. Handling four or five attackers could look awesome, but the way a character must move to make those defenses would tax faster computers than we have today. Not even Jackie Chan can do that real-time... you've seen the outtakes.

Add Massive to your Multiplayer and things get uglier by an order of magnitude. A whole battlefield of procedural dodges and parries boggles my mind.... just imagine the smoke that would come out a three year old CPU. Add Online to your Massively Multiplayer and you introduce upwards of half a second of latency between two average players. Even if characters advertise every move at least a second in advance, only the fastest players on the fastest connections will be able to react.

Take M&B for example. If I parry before my opponent has begun to swing, or if my opponent rethinks a swing faster than I re-parry... a hit! A palpable hit! Each of those decisions happens based on sound cues and animations that last a less than a second. I also know exactly where my opponent is, even at horseback speeds. Add latency and either I miss even though I swung precisely as he moved past, or else (from his perspective) he gets hit half a second after he skillfully evaded my blow. There are a number of free Korean deathmatch MOGs available (or American FPSs with online network play) if you'd like to experience this sort of thing on your own.

Auto-attack, like cooldown and cast time, exists to establish a rhythm and to slow everything down to a pace playable at medium ping.

... but could a melee combat system use a location-based targeting system to give the illusion of interactive combat?

Illusion? Sure! A sort of auto-attack overlay would be easy, but I don't see the point. Players could be hitting fighting game button and direction combinations rather than hotkeys, but the results would be the same... they'd just require that the player jumped through more hoops before they happened. Hell, you could make the player double-click a golf game slider every time they attack and vary damage or hit-location based on their accuracy and power... is that any more immersive than the hotkeyed system it seems we want to avoid?

Theoretically PvP could actually be you fighting an AI doppleganger of your opponent whose skill-level varies based on how successfully the other player fights your doppleganger. Dodges, parries, and fighting-game moves in real time, (resolved using these sorts of tricks, my thanks to Stephen Zepp for pointing out the article). Each doppleganger can only use the fighting moves its player actually has. Perhaps it watches which ones the player favors and adapts as the fight continues. When one of you successfully kills her AI opponent, the winner's doppleganger performs an unbeatable instant-kill move and ends the other fight. Are you fighting the player or the AI?

I admit that's a blatant straw man, but what's the goal here? Illusion or immersion?

[Sunbury]

Wasn't this how combat started out in Asheron's Call? With three zones to attack? But people figured out autocombat while spamming drains was more efficient?

The first part is correct, and is still true.  The second part is only if you have Life Magic, but you can't cast a Drain spell except holding a magic casting device, in which case you can't me in melee combat mode.  Also neither Life nor War (magic bolts)  magic has auto-attack.

The high-medium-low is in effect for ranged (bow, xbow, throwing) and melee (sword, axe, ua, dagger, mace, staff), but not for War magic.

It has 3 effects:  1) Some mobs don't have a 'high' because they are small/short, and some mobs don't have a 'low' because they are 'flying' (actually that was true in 1999, I'll have to try it when I get home).

2) Some mobs have different effective armor at different levels.  At least it seems so, you have to determine it statiscally.  So the head of the mob will have higher effected armor than its feet.

3) The chance of hit is modified based on if the mob is attacking you at that same level, there is a melee defense bonus.

For archers there is an additional effect, if a mob is running toward you you want to aim 'low' because it will me more likely for the projected arrow path to still intersect the collision box of the mob that way due to terrain and speed differences.  When running away, better aiming high.