Regarding High End content

[Phred]

I don't know if my server is atypical but I found out recently that 14 aliance guilds on our server have killed ragnaros and 2 horde guilds have. Assuming 80-100 people per guild (number you'd need to field a 40 man raid regularly)
that's an aweful lot of end game L60's. I have no idea how many people the servers support but it sure seems that in WoW it's a lot more than the 1-5 % many people toss around as the number of people that will get to experience new high end content.

[Pococurante]

I have no idea how many people the servers support but it sure seems that in WoW it's a lot more than the 1-5 % many people toss around as the number of people that will get to experience new high end content.

14 * 100 / 4000000 = small potatos

[Merusk]

That '14 guilds' number is probably a bit misleading.  Sure, there've been 20-30 guilds in MC and killing Rag on Alleria, however, only 2-3 guilds can field the whole team of 40 by themselves. The rest are loose coalitions or alliances that do it together.

That said, yes, in WoW more people ARE able to experience the endgame content because  of instancing, which is a good thing.

[cevik]

I have cosmos ui installed, and I often run census+.  My census of horde on llane shows about 42% of the people on llane are level 60, and the rest of the people are distributed from 1 to 59 fairly evenly, i.e. at my normal play time, of the people who are logged on, almost half are level 60.

Unless someone knows a flaw in census+?  In fact, my census looks pretty close to the aggregate uploaded census data on the warcraftrealms.com census+ website:  http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?PHPSESSID=ab3fd9bee4b82e929009f0f4bd0d826d

So I sorta doubt the 1-5% number myself..

[Phred]

I have no idea how many people the servers support but it sure seems that in WoW it's a lot more than the 1-5 % many people toss around as the number of people that will get to experience new high end content.

14 * 100 / 4000000 = small potatos

It would be small potatoes if it was only the 14 guilds on my server who'd killed ragnaros, as everyone else in this thread who can read appears to have got other than yourself.

[Pococurante]

Ooh touchy.
 

[Malathor]

That '14 guilds' number is probably a bit misleading.  Sure, there've been 20-30 guilds in MC and killing Rag on Alleria, however, only 2-3 guilds can field the whole team of 40 by themselves. The rest are loose coalitions or alliances that do it together.

That said, yes, in WoW more people ARE able to experience the endgame content because  of instancing, which is a good thing.

Now granted Shattered Hand is anything but a backwater, but I count at least 14 separate raidgroups (not # of guilds contributing to raidgroups, but actual raidgroups) that are currently killing Rag and at least 11 more that have at least killed Domo. I would say that over all we have at least 30 different raid groups currently raiding MC, and each of these needs not 40, but more like 50-60 active 60's to fill to fill up the raid on any kind of a consistent basis.

That's at least 1500 lev 60s on my server currently raiding MC, and I would say that's probably a majority of the total number of active 60s on the server.

The numbers of WoW players participating in the high end raiding game is much higher than commonly supposed.

[Threash]

Thats because MC is no longer the end game content, BWL is it currently. 

[SurfD]

Thats because MC is no longer the end game content, BWL is it currently. 

This is very, very true.  MC is a wafflestomp for any halfway competent guild.  Once you know the general strategy for any given boss, killing him is easy.

After having managed to get in some good time in BWL with my guild, I have to say that BWL is orders of magnatude harder then MC.  Not because the mobs are toughter, but because every encounter is much MUCH more complex.  You can learn the strat all you want.  Executing said strat is usually a much more difficult thing.  Most of the fights in BLW revolve very heavily around carefull aggro management, having highly skilled tanks, and being on the ball. 

In MC, an avoidable screwup or two can be recovered from fairly easily, in most of the BWL fights, an avoidablel screwup usually results in a near instant wipe.

[Malathor]

Thats because MC is no longer the end game content, BWL is it currently. 

This is very, very true.  MC is a wafflestomp for any halfway competent guild.  Once you know the general strategy for any given boss, killing him is easy.

After having managed to get in some good time in BWL with my guild, I have to say that BWL is orders of magnatude harder then MC.  Not because the mobs are toughter, but because every encounter is much MUCH more complex.  You can learn the strat all you want.  Executing said strat is usually a much more difficult thing.  Most of the fights in BLW revolve very heavily around carefull aggro management, having highly skilled tanks, and being on the ball. 

In MC, an avoidable screwup or two can be recovered from fairly easily, in most of the BWL fights, an avoidablel screwup usually results in a near instant wipe.

The point I was trying to note is the number of people participating in 40 man raids at all, not necessarily the difficulty of those raids. The common assumption was that this was a very narrow niche playstyle, appealing to a very small percentage of players of a broad appeal MMORPG like WoW. The appeal of that playstyle I think has turned out to be much broader than generally expected.

I'll agree that BWL turned out to be a stunning leap up in difficulty. As big, or bigger than UBRS>MC, and it certainly put the wood to all the old EQ raiders that labeled WoW the MMORPG equivalent of candyland. Many of the BWL encounters were both more complicated and more unforgiving than anything EQ ever came up with. I know many EQ vets that actually quit in fustration, or otherwise burned out. Unlike Rag, the first guilds to down Nef were generally not old EQ guilds at all.

Nevertheless, BWL will filter its way down to the general public, just as MC did. People forget what a nightmare that MC was back in Feb. or March. In 6 months the same people just now working on Rag will be clearing BWL. If you can kill Vael, you are at least capable of killing anything in that zone.

[stray]

The appeal of that playstyle I think has turned out to be much broader than generally expected.

Yeah, but don't you have to participate if you want things like a set of class armor and whatnot?

I don't think people really have a choice, unless they want to look like the mixmatched bum they've been looking like for the 59 levels before that stage.

[Malathor]

The appeal of that playstyle I think has turned out to be much broader than generally expected.

Yeah, but don't you have to participate if you want things like a set of class armor and whatnot?

I don't think people really have a choice, unless they want to look like the mixmatched bum they've been looking like for the 59 levels before that stage.

Not really. There are certainly alternatives. A combination of DM farming, AV faction rewards and mid rank PvP gear will outfit most classes very nearly as well as months of MC farming will. ZG, although requiring a 20 man raid, offers gear every bit as good as the best MC stuff. Even BWL, many times the difficulty level of MC, only offers a 10-20% improvement in gear over MC. If it's a matter of looks...well, take a look at what Tier 2 gets me...

http://www.whataboutpp.com/sets/index.php?race=hu&class=pr&tier=2

My old Arcane Cover and Sunken Temple blues beat the crap out of that!

[stray]

Yeah, I kind of feel sorry for Priests. Especially if you're male.

But...

[Ironwood]

  Executing said strat is usually a much more difficult thing.  Most of the fights in BLW revolve very heavily around carefull aggro management, having highly skilled tanks, and being on the ball. 

I guess me and my guild should stay away from that one then...

[Dren]

I need to find a service that raids for me.  That'd be sweet...


Nevermind.