Why no to multispec ECM?

[nurtsi]

Lot of people keep saying you should never use multispectral ECM modules and always fit race specific, but nobody ever explains why. So why? More points is better, right?

With tech 1 (so we get nice integers), no bonuses and scorp with 8 slots to ECM and jamming one guy:

All multispecs: 8x 2 points = 16 points

2x each racial: 2x 3 points + 6x 1 points = 12 points

So what changes this to favor race specifics?

[Goumindong]

It hasn't been points for at least 2 years(since before I started playing in Aug 06). Each activation of each ECM gives a % chance to jam the target at jam strength/sensor strength chance.

This means that racial jammers are much much much stronger in getting jams on the majority of targets.

Racial jammers have longer range: When you are using all your meds for jamming and all your lows for SDAs range is your tank.

Racial jammers use less cap: You won't cap out when using them

Common fleet ECM practice is to select a good jamming target and put a jammer on each one, run it till the end of the fight, it warps off, or dies. Try not to jam the primary or people with drones out and not doing anything.

In fleets, scorpions/rooks/falcons survive because they are 200+km off enemy fleet which is 20-60km farther than the farthest anti-support is hitting and in the range where only Rokhs are going to be touching you. When they aren't they die. Hell, they die a lot when they are.

[Viin]

Yah what Goumindong said.

Since each individual racial has more points it is more likely to jam. The proper way to use them is to turn ONE on, see if it jams, if not, try the next one. Most people have their ECM in manual mode, so when the jam stops you do it again (1 - see if it works, then 2 - see if it works, then 3 - etc).

If you just turn them all on you are wasting your modules and aren't helping jam any better.

[Endie]

SMASH are of the opinion that you should fill up the mid-slots of damn near everything with multispecs.

SMASH are dying.

-dbp

[Fordel]

ECM is probably one of my most hated Mechanics in EVE. It's way to important in terms of battle worth and its a completely unfun mechanic.

[nurtsi]

Ok, longer range and less cap, sure.

But there's no stacking of ECM? So each module when activated checks the jam strength/sensor strength and if the random number favors you, you get the jam? If that's the case, lets say the target has sensor strength of 10 and we're using 8 multispecs. The probability of NOT getting a jam on your opponent (ie. activate each module one by one and they all fail to jam in a row) would be:

(1 - 2/10)^8 = 16.8%

With two each racials, it would be:

(1 - 3/10)^2 * (1 - 1/10)^6 = 26%

So for pure jamming probability multispecs would be better (if this is indeed how they work).

[eldaec]

But you don't usually stack ECM blindly on a single target.

You'd usually pick a target for each scanner type, and then (since you have two of each) only apply the second if the first fails. But even you you just pick 4 targets out of the fleet and double stack on each, then your odds getting at least one ship jammed are 96%.

1 - (7/10) ^8 = 0.96

Plus, at the other extreme, you get four ships jammed 7% of the time.

(1-(7/10)^2)^4 = 0.07


OTOH if, hypothetically, you were building a solo short range 1v1 gank ship with ECM, unpredictable targets, and limitless cap, then you'd go multispec for the reasons you lay out.

[Endie]

ECM is probably one of my most hated Mechanics in EVE. It's way to important in terms of battle worth and its a completely unfun mechanic.

I like it because it is one of the few areas in Eve Online where player skill/knowledge is the dominant factor in doing it right.  If you want to be really good, you have to know which race your targets are, which race your jammers correspond to, what sort of sensor strength the targets have, whether they are liable to be drone ships etc...

[Simond]

Plus it's a great next step for newbies who are fed up with tackling - train caldari cruiser and a couple of ewar skills and suddenly your blackbird is shutting down HACs.
It's be even better if CCP could have more than one type of racial electronic warfare worthwhile at once, though - a year ago RSDs/Celestis were king, and blackbirds sucked.

[Amarr HM]

Two different racial specifics give my caldari alt a jam strength of 11.6+3.8=15.4. Two multispecs give me 2 x 7.7= 15.4

Tested with Falcon and two rigs. Skills are ewar IV and recon IV.

[Pezzle]

Two different racial specifics give my caldari alt a jam strength of 11.6+3.8=15.4. Two multispecs give me 2 x 7.7= 15.4

Tested with Falcon and two rigs. Skills are ewar IV and recon IV.

Ok.  But the single strength is 11.6 vs 7.7 (by your example).  Now say you have 2 of the same jammer.  23.2 vs 15.4
My chance on individual cycles with the correct is much better.  Sure you can stick with multispec if you want.  You also decrease range and use more cap.  My BB sitting in station here has optimals of 151 on racials vs 100 on the multispec.  That is a HUGE difference.  Cap use is 45.6 vs 63.2.  Falloff is inferior and they take more CPU. 

Back to the point of it being great for newbies.  Absolutely!  Blackbirds are cheap, you can use named (and not even best if you are poor) and still be fairly effective.  I can set up several for the price of a single hac or recon (unfit).  And your ability to shut down hacs and recons is really only the beginning.  In my second experience in a BB I perma jammed a Scorpion, jammed an oneiros so frequently it spent the whole fight warping in and out, AND I got in several jam cycles (some back to back) on a dread and carrier.  Yeah you can have cheap fun (or die horribly quickly and not break the bank) in a Blackbird.

[Endie]

Two different racial specifics give my caldari alt a jam strength of 11.6+3.8=15.4. Two multispecs give me 2 x 7.7= 15.4

Tested with Falcon and two rigs. Skills are ewar IV and recon IV.

The maths doesn't quite work like that (I don't want to do a Goumindong, but as a reductio ad absurdum, two 50% chances don't give you a 100% chance).  Also, the jam strength is not the percentage chance to jam: the two 11.6 jammers can shut down two of some ships 100% of the time (some minmatar ships, for instance), whereas the 7.7 ones might only be jamming 60% of the time each on the same two ships, thus giving you, in this hypothetical example, a 100% chance of jamming two ships with racials against a 36% chance of jamming two ships with multispecs.

But even if it did add up, the problem with the multispecs is that you are using much more cap and your range is considerably shorter.  In the case of a falcon that can make the difference between cloaking and warping off at 220km or getting targetted and caught by an inty when up closer (I've never fit multis on a falcon so couldn't tell you the range, but it's shorter).

Stop Press: We're all wrong.  Courtesy of SMASH, here is how to fit a Blackbird.  After they stuck ecm on everything else, this actually qualifies as rich irony (someone tell Alanis).

[Pezzle]

I do not usually gape and gawk at fits but wow.  The only thing I can think of is that guy was going for some solo kills on soft targets.  Why you would fit lasers of all things on a blackbird is beyond me.  Maybe he was hoping to get some close range intys.  I dunno, painful.

[bhodi]

(not to mention ewar IV doesn't affect jamming strength, signal dispersion does)

You don't use multispecs, and I have said this in several threads, because #1 they use double the cap and #2 have half the range. All ewar dedicated ships have absolutely no tank - you can't withstand a 1v1 volley much less focused fire. Range is your only defense.

On the use of ECM, generally, a single racial ECM from a blackbird or above with decent (all IVs) skills is sufficient to take any subcapital ship out of commission. The smaller ships will get permajammed, and battleships will get jammed around half the time -- which is fine, because their lock time is generally 10+ seconds anyway - they'll lock and maybe get a volley off just in time to get jammed again.

In larger fleet battles, where there is a lot of lag, you can actually keep carriers and battleships permajammed.

If people are interested, I can do a quick writeup on how (I think, anyway) to use ECM effectively - I've had a little experience.

[Phildo]

Who solos in a blackbird anyway?  It's not exactly the most potent weapons platform and its bonuses don't lend itself to 1v1 combat.

[Endie]

Who solos in a blackbird anyway?  It's not exactly the most potent weapons platform and its bonuses don't lend itself to 1v1 combat.

I'm pretty certain there is a fight of shame on our KB when someone 1v1ed Dano in his eccm-fitted, torp raven in a blackbird.

[bhodi]

I 1v1'd him, I was specifically out of range of his torps, and kept him permajammed besides.

I fit all smartbombs and my plan was to kill his hobgoblin IIs. I *almost* killed them all, too - I was within 1 pulse of doing it. At 1m each, it would have been twice the cost of my entire ship and fittings.

I ran out of cap. I didn't have good cap skills trained at the time. I was also green as hell, and panicked instead of warping off.