Torque Game Builder and Torque X Releases

[Stephen Zepp]

I won't be on forums on Monday to announce, so wanted to say right quick:

TGB 1.5 is in release (hopefully today) mode as we speak, and Torque X is going out of beta early next week (again hopefully Monday).

We are also simultaneously releasing the Torque X Platformer Starter Kit at the same time (separate product).

Edit by Trippy: fixed link

[Yegolev]

Is this thing still in beta?  I'm having second thoughts about using Perl/Tk to write my game.

[Stephen Zepp]

Is this thing still in beta?  I'm having second thoughts about using Perl/Tk to write my game.

Which? Torque X is in 1.0 (2D only), and pretty flexible. 3D is under active development.

TGB is well out of beta, although as it turns out we decided to delay release of the 1.5 final for a few weeks to factor in some refined functionality. My guess is that it will be in GA next week (I have the final build internally), but that depends on marketing/web.

[Samwise]

Is there a clean C++ API for the TGB stuff, or do I need to code my entire app in TorqueScript to be able to use it well?

[Stephen Zepp]

Is there a clean C++ API for the TGB stuff, or do I need to code my entire app in TorqueScript to be able to use it well?

There are two primary products: TGB Indie and TGB Pro.

TGB Indie does not give source code, and therefore TorqueScript only applies.

TGB Pro does give source code, and therefore the flexibility to do whatever you want--but it's a game engine that fundamentally expects an integration of script and c++, and going the "I only want to program in c++ route" in some/many ways removes the advantages of the engine.

Not going to go into the discussion of "script vs pure c++", but it's been discussed so many times over the years it's not funny--and most engines expect use of some form of scripting layer.

[Samwise]

Having a layer of scripting is fine; I'm just wondering if there are C++ hooks into it as well.

For example, suppose I've written a really killer chess AI in C++, and now to show it off I want a UI that shows a chess board, lets a human player push pieces around, et cetera.  I figure I could create the basic chess interface in TGB pretty easily, but I want to be able to call into my C++ code to figure out what moves the computer should make, rather than rewriting all that AI from scratch in a new language.  How hard is that going to be?

[Stephen Zepp]

Having a layer of scripting is fine; I'm just wondering if there are C++ hooks into it as well.

For example, suppose I've written a really killer chess AI in C++, and now to show it off I want a UI that shows a chess board, lets a human player push pieces around, et cetera.  I figure I could create the basic chess interface in TGB pretty easily, but I want to be able to call into my C++ code to figure out what moves the computer should make, rather than rewriting all that AI from scratch in a new language.  How hard is that going to be?

Depends on your knowledge of c++, and how the chess AI is structured, but in general not particularly difficult. Basically, assuming your chess AI is not monolithically tied to a particular code structure, you probably have API like calls for "generatePossibleMoves", "generateOneMove", etc. To use these within TorqueScript, you would associate them with a class (probably define a new class based on T2DAnimatedSprite for example), and create what are called ConsoleMethods--wrappers that expose direct c++ calls to TorqueScript.

You would then add in callbacks to Torquescript that allow for script to receive events such as "nextMoveGenerated" or some such, and implement that move visually.

I'll be perfectly up front: your stated project isn't necessarily one where TGB does a lot for you, except for the rendering and possibly input if you are actually making a human playable chess game. It can certainly let you set up the chessboard, manage the pieces (and there is even a semi-outdated but still viable checkers tutorial), accept moves and such, but it will require some work (and a source code license) to integrate to a previously created set of code.

[Samwise]

The "ConsoleMethods" sounds like the thing I'd be interested in.  (You're correct that all TGB would be getting me would be the rendering and UI, but that's all I'm in the market for anyway.  :) )  I would need the "Pro" version with the full engine source to be able to use that, though?  Does the Torque source itself need to be hacked to make ConsoleMethods work, or are ConsoleMethods just disabled in the Indie version?

[Stephen Zepp]

The "ConsoleMethods" sounds like the thing I'd be interested in.  (You're correct that all TGB would be getting me would be the rendering and UI, but that's all I'm in the market for anyway.  :) )  I would need the "Pro" version with the full engine source to be able to use that, though?  Does the Torque source itself need to be hacked to make ConsoleMethods work, or are ConsoleMethods just disabled in the Indie version?

ConsoleMethods are an integral part of the engine (as are the callbacks)--it's just that without a source code project, and source code to edit, you have no way to make new ones.

Source code license lets you compile a new executable to run your script against, which of course implies the ability to include additional c++ files (your AI, etc), and then expose those c++ methods to script via console methods.

Just for the record as well, this is advanced stuff compared to the normal TGB market, so your out of the box experience isn't going to do much for you at the level you're talking, but drop me a private line if/when you take the plunge and I'll help out.

[Yegolev]

Is this thing still in beta?  I'm having second thoughts about using Perl/Tk to write my game.

Which? Torque X is in 1.0 (2D only), and pretty flexible. 3D is under active development.

TGB is well out of beta, although as it turns out we decided to delay release of the 1.5 final for a few weeks to factor in some refined functionality. My guess is that it will be in GA next week (I have the final build internally), but that depends on marketing/web.

You have probably answered my question, but I was originally wondering about TGB since the web site says it's still in beta.  A brief look at the web page makes me think Torque X would be the thing to start with since I'm not going to be making a 3D game.  Not just now, anyway.

[Stephen Zepp]

Is this thing still in beta?  I'm having second thoughts about using Perl/Tk to write my game.

Which? Torque X is in 1.0 (2D only), and pretty flexible. 3D is under active development.

TGB is well out of beta, although as it turns out we decided to delay release of the 1.5 final for a few weeks to factor in some refined functionality. My guess is that it will be in GA next week (I have the final build internally), but that depends on marketing/web.

You have probably answered my question, but I was originally wondering about TGB since the web site says it's still in beta.  A brief look at the web page makes me think Torque X would be the thing to start with since I'm not going to be making a 3D game.  Not just now, anyway.

Ahh...actually, TGB was released almost a year ago. We have cyclic point releases, the latest one of those is still in beta, but 1.1.3 is a Generally Available (stable) release. It's probably the 1.5 beta that you are thinking about.

XNA (and therefore Torque X) is an unusual beast--and selection of it as an implementation platform is an interesting decision. If your goal is to sell games on the XB360, XNA/Torque X is not (yet) the appropriate choice. We think MS is eventually going to work something out, but as of right now there is no commercial distribution path to the XB360 even described, much less available.

It's also in c#, and also a .NET language (interface? framework? not sure of the .NET term to be honest)--and MS has said that you can sell XNA games commercially for the Windows platform(s). Being part of .NET, if XNA doesn't do something you want, you can simply using anything in .NET 2.0 (although it's important to keep in mind that XNA on the 360 is only the compact framework).

Finally, Torque X itself is currently 2D only, although it has some amazing work going on (some screenshots and the like are buried in our website under .plans and forum posts). Given all those interesting decision points, both XNA and Torque X are really fun to work with, and both extremely easy, and after you dig deeper, quite flexible and powerful.

[Yegolev]

I would like to think that no one would be dumb enough to give me money for a game I wrote, since it is likely going to be fairly half-ass... especially artwise since I can't draw for shit.  I really just want to prove to myself that I can write a better MTGO than the MTGO people, and I would like to do it on a platform that does not involve X11.  So...

I want to make a 2D game that is lighter on animations than a platformer and would be modular so that I can just write the framework and add cards (or whatever) to it with as little effort as possible.  Sound like Torque X to you?

[Stephen Zepp]

I would like to think that no one would be dumb enough to give me money for a game I wrote, since it is likely going to be fairly half-ass... especially artwise since I can't draw for shit.  I really just want to prove to myself that I can write a better MTGO than the MTGO people, and I would like to do it on a platform that does not involve X11.  So...

I want to make a 2D game that is lighter on animations than a platformer and would be modular so that I can just write the framework and add cards (or whatever) to it with as little effort as possible.  Sound like Torque X to you?

Yah it does actually, especially with the fact that Torque X is based on the OOP principle of aggregation, instead of hierarchical inheritance. In a nutshell, that means that you have base objects, and give those objects "components", which can be viewed as a combination of properties and behaviors.

It's got a 30 day trial, and the actual engine itself is free forever (it's the editor/level builder you buy)--I'd say give it a shot, spend a week or so going through and understanding the tutorials, and go from there.

I will say that mouse input is not what you would normally expect--since at the time the input system was designed and developed, the goal was full XBox360 integration, mouse style inputs weren't considered hugely important. It's a weak-ish area of TorqueX, and can be frustrating at first to work with, but it will meet your needs once you get a feel for it and set up some helpers for yourself.

[Yegolev]

It's OK, I have the Xbox 360 controller dongle for my PC.  I bet I can make a MTGO clone with a severe case of consolitis.  And nine cards.

[Samwise]

Get Samprimary to draw the cards.  It will revolutionize the genre!

[Yegolev]

At the risk of pissing off the Kingdom of Loathing people, that's a great idea.