DotA Clones -- Any in the Works?

[cmlancas]

I played DotA competitively for a long time, since around version 4.x. I'm curious to know if anyone in forumland knows any games that are similar to this game either now, or in the future for PC/Console/whatever. I know it was one of the most popular custom maps of WC3 for quite a long time, but I eventually got bored with the ridiculous micro into which it evolved. Therefore I'm looking for something new.


Thoughts?

[Stephen Zepp]

I played DotA competitively for a long time, since around version 4.x. I'm curious to know if anyone in forumland knows any games that are similar to this game either now, or in the future for PC/Console/whatever. I know it was one of the most popular custom maps of WC3 for quite a long time, but I eventually got bored with the ridiculous micro into which it evolved. Therefore I'm looking for something new.


Thoughts?

I never played it myself, but I watched several multi-player sessions at a couple of lan parties--and being a very big WC3 fan, I could never see how it was compelling--mostly due to the micro requirements you mention.

All I ever saw was people controlling single units on widely different areas of the map, and endlessly swapping between them to super-micro. Just not why I like RTS personally.

What was it that you enjoyed if you don't mind?

[Sairon]

Naturally it's micro heavy since you only control 1 character, there's not much macro possible. Btw, are we talking DoTA allstars ( http://www.dota-allstars.com/ )or the original DoTA to WC3? DoTA allstars is extremely popular, most likely many times larger than WC3 in itself if you exclude Korea.

[Strazos]

I thought you could only control 1 character overall, not just one at a time with swapping?

[Typhon]

In general you control one character.  Some characters have the ability to summon or enslave pets, so with them you could be controlling multiple mobs.

I liked it alot, I just could never talk my friends into playing it very much, and I wasn't good enough/didn't play enough to compete with the crowd.

It's been awhile, but this is what I remember.

A quick, stra-tactical game.  Doesn't usually last as long as a RTS game (although if evenly matched the games can last an hour or so).  The tactics are maneuvering your character and using it's abilities well (which, for some characters, takes a bit of practice).  The strategic part is knowing what to equipment and skills to buy/choose, and when.

Both sides generates three streams of creeps (one up the middle, and one on each side), which move from their spawn point to the opposing base camp (and try to kill anything in their path).  The PC bases are either at 12 o'clock or 6 o'clock.

Killing creeps gives you experience.  Each character has six abilities (I think, maybe less) which you get as you level up.  Some characters are passive-effect heavy, some active ability heavy, some in between.  Really, there are just a ton of different abilities/character themes.

Killing creeps and time gives you cash.  There is a fairly large amount of loot in the game that you need to buy.  There are items which require previous items to make - adding to the strategic component.  The loot you should buy is very character dependent.

There are a fairly large number of characters, and each requires a bit of forethought and playing to get to the point where you know what you should be training, and what you should be buying, and what to use and when.

Better to find a character who's play style you enjoy and stick with him.  On the other hand, it's important to play characters that have synergies with your teammates characters, as some characters are stronger in the early game, others as stronger in the late game (a melee character can help keep a mage character alive till the mage because devastating).

[Trippy]

I never played it myself, but I watched several multi-player sessions at a couple of lan parties--and being a very big WC3 fan, I could never see how it was compelling--mostly due to the micro requirements you mention.

All I ever saw was people controlling single units on widely different areas of the map, and endlessly swapping between them to super-micro. Just not why I like RTS personally.

What was it that you enjoyed if you don't mind?

DotA plays like a top-down view PvP RPG. That's why people like it.

[bhodi]

DotA is still awesome. I play it at least a few times a week, US East under 'Bhodi' in quasi-pro pickup matches under Clan TDA (whitelist game/player matchups to prevent leavers/feeders/asshats). I'm sure when starcraft 2 comes out, there will be a port for it -- it's become a 'type' of custom map, much like the tower defense maps. Blizzard released their own DotA clone, and they called it Candy Wars.

Why people like it is easy -- There's no building units, so it's perfect for people like myself who get wrapped up in an engagement and forget all about those build queues and timers back at base. It's pure PvP, 5 versus 5, and generally takes 15-45m to play a round, so it's easy to just play a quick pickup game while sating that PvP bloodlust. There's no unbalancing epic lewts or time-based advantages beyond knowing the heroes and their abilities and knowing which items are better for what characters. The characters are balanced enough that doing an all-random (-ar) game generally doesn't give any particular side an auto-win due to bad hero matchups. At the same time, you get to level a character, get cash, and upgrade your hero. If you die, you lose a bit of gold and get respawned back at base.

Yes, there's a bit of micro for combat, but as you're only controlling one character (except for the very few characters who have a pet or multiple units) the micro is very manageable. All the units hotkeys are similar and all laid out in the upper left quadrant, e r d f c v are the primary hotkeys for the different character's abilities. It's not about who can click 10 units fast enough, it's more about positioning, teamwork, using the map, knowing heroes abilities and using them appropriately.. All heroes have 4 abilities and they level similar to the warcraft 3 heroes -- 3 main abilities, 1 "super" ability that you get and upgrade at levels 6, 11 and 16. You don't generally need to be looking elsewhere in the map, 99% of the time you've got your hero in view and you are responding to things in the general vicinity.. while watching the minimap keeping tabs on where enemy heroes are to prevent a gank (2-3 heroes coming from behind or against you, pretty much an instagib if you aren't paying attention)

It's a lot of fun to get on vent/TS as a team and play together. Even if you lose, it's a fun experience.

When you say similar, what do you mean?

[Margalis]

Kind of funny that the most popular form of War3 is the one that radically changes it and strips out most of the gameplay.

In a way it makes sense though. The heroes can level, use items, have abilities, etc. Really too complicated to explore fully while also controlling other heroes, normal units, building economy, etc.

My thought on this style of game is that the breadth comes from the number of units, not the depth of each individual units. But in War3 you control a variety of units *and* some of them are really deep  - requiring too much divided attention or investment.

If you look at Starcraft, you have a large variety of units you can control at one time, but each one is pretty simple. Look at a game like Zelda, you control one character but they are very complex. In War3 are asked to manage a whole bunch of complex tasks.

[Samprimary]

I have been playing dota nearly to the exclusion of any other game.

It has done to top-down what Counterstrike did to first person: took an engine and created a compelling, reliably wonderful game with a simultaneous requirement for team coordination and solo strategy. The replay value is immense. It's legitimately more entertaining than most games in stores. After a while, you have a running mental tab of the unique elements of every one of the game's 80+ hero choices.

We have five computers here and regularly play TDA or pubs. We're on Azeroth. I would be absolutely thrilled to play with anyone from F13.

[cmlancas]

I never played it myself, but I watched several multi-player sessions at a couple of lan parties--and being a very big WC3 fan, I could never see how it was compelling--mostly due to the micro requirements you mention.

All I ever saw was people controlling single units on widely different areas of the map, and endlessly swapping between them to super-micro. Just not why I like RTS personally.

What was it that you enjoyed if you don't mind?

Apparently my 9999 minute timer was up, because I timed out during my post and lost it. Anyway, I think many of the other posters have made my case. I don't really have the micro skills for Warcraft 3 to be a great player -- I can build units and I know how to play orc and undead so I don't lose in the first ten minutes -- but the things I liked were:

1) Replay Value: A completely unique experience every time. One build on one character will not always work in each game. With the addition of many new heroes (I think when I started playing there were only one and a half taverns on each side), the games are rarely ever the same.

2) Game Length: The game rarely takes more than an hour and a half to play to completion and unless I'm playing Civilization 3, that is about as long as an RTS can hold my attention. However, to call DotA an RTS is really a misnomer, Icefrog et al created an RPG. It's like WoW's moniker of "Easy to play, difficult to master:" DotA for me removed the tedious elements (somewhat) of an RPG while keeping me engaged with the endgame -- PvP.

3) Game Strategy: The tactics and strategies are really what made the game the most fun for me. Whether it is using a stun lock, an AOE attack, or a slow combo, the tactics never became old to me. Especially in the competitive leagues (TDA, IHL, CAL), tactical superiority was paramount.

4) Did I mention replay value? I played DotA much like I played EQ1 when I was in high school. I became a catass for an RTS/RPG. Granted I haven't played in a full year, but I am starting to miss this sort of game.


Since I made a list of things I liked, I suppose I should make a list of things I did not like as well:

1) The whole idea of the only way one makes money is by getting the last hit on a creep. I think this idea is utter bullshit. It is not a skill to ensure that a person denies another creepkills or gets the last hit so he/she makes money more quickly. It made the core game feel more like a twitch FPS (to me) and even though I was pretty decent at it, I hated it.

2) CAL games became the same crap every week. The way the CAL rules are structured make the games into a cheesefest for the teams. I literally play the same scenario (with one or two variations of teams) when I played in CAL-O. We did pretty well -- 5-0-1 until our clan broke up due to politics, but I swear if I see another Lich/Veno/Tide/Viper/Oblivion matchup I'll scream.

[Sairon]

In fact they've removed the impact of denying to the point where it's almost not worth to even care about it. I don't know how the match up looks like in team games since I only play pickup -ar, however from what I've heard at least on northend there's a truckload of setups that are viable, a lot depending on what the other team picks.

[cmlancas]

I have been playing dota nearly to the exclusion of any other game.

It has done to top-down what Counterstrike did to first person: took an engine and created a compelling, reliably wonderful game with a simultaneous requirement for team coordination and solo strategy. The replay value is immense. It's legitimately more entertaining than most games in stores. After a while, you have a running mental tab of the unique elements of every one of the game's 80+ hero choices.

We have five computers here and regularly play TDA or pubs. We're on Azeroth. I would be absolutely thrilled to play with anyone from F13.

Sam, if you ever played with clancaster, that was me. I haven't logged on in a year or so though, considering I lost my WC3 disks and had to reformat and am missing a CD Key. I don't have time to play like I used to, but perhaps we could get a f13 squad going to destroy some people.

[Megrim]

I have been playing dota nearly to the exclusion of any other game.

It has done to top-down what Counterstrike did to first person: took an engine and created a compelling, reliably wonderful game with a simultaneous requirement for team coordination and solo strategy. The replay value is immense. It's legitimately more entertaining than most games in stores. After a while, you have a running mental tab of the unique elements of every one of the game's 80+ hero choices.

We have five computers here and regularly play TDA or pubs. We're on Azeroth. I would be absolutely thrilled to play with anyone from F13.

I play pretty-much every night, and having played with Bhodi, and my Aus to US ping is nasty but manageable. Also, Bane4lyfe.

[MrHat]

I play on US East pretty regularly as Chocolate_Jesus.  Pickups primarily.

DotA has become what CS was for the longest time: my fallback game when I'm not in the throes of the latest Robot Jesus.  Also, 45mins-1hour games ftw.

[Samprimary]

Please, by all means, look me up the next time you're playing.

I'm Akecheta and I hang out in the channel 'woof.' The aforementioned five computers here are regularly cycled with a whole host of players. Three or four of us are tourney level and we run the gamut from there down to hapless feeders.

I appreciate the hapless feeders, however. Nothing whips you into shape better than having to fight well-fed players and compensate.

[Ragnoros]

I like me some DotA also, MrHat said it well

DotA has become what CS was for the longest time: my fallback game when I'm not in the throes of the latest Robot Jesus.

Anyway feel free to look me up anytime Justiceboy on USEast. I play with my brother and his friends a couple times a week.