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Title: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Johny Cee on February 11, 2019, 02:02:19 PM
Autochess is a free mod to Dota 2, available under the "Arcade" tab.  You draft units, that combine and level up.  Match different tribes and synergies, arrange your pieces on the board (Tanks go here, dps there, etc) and then the AI will fight the other seven players in your lobby.  Easy to start and learn, but surprisingly deep... it has over 3 million subscriptions and has started hitting over 200k concurrent players.  If you have watched or subscribed to either a Hearthstone or Dota youtuber/streamer, you have probably starting seeing videos pop up.  It seems like the entire population of content creators for both games have been playing non-stop.

The Good:
- The gameplay is familiar enough to CCGs for comfort, but introduces enough novel gameplay mechanics (economy, board position) to feel new.
- Uses Dota 2 assets, straight from the game, including voice lines....  So production quality is high.
- Easy to get into, but a high skill ceiling. 
- Free.  Dota 2 is free, and this is an official mod via the client. 
- That delicious combination of fun AND addictive.
- Constant updates and balance changes.
- Largely the "good" kind of RNG.


The Bad:
- Matchmaking is not implemented, despite having a rank ladder.  That means that, if you queue regularly, you are just matched with a bunch of folks that queued about the same time.  If you have a higher rank, you can get absolutely fucked if you queue into a bunch of low tier players and don't win. 
- Some oddities and control issues.  Some controls feel sluggish, sometimes your hotkeys aren't recognized.
- Some balance issues...  still some units that are hot garbage.
- Some bug issues, like a common bug that keeps kicking you out of lobbies.
- You are queuing with the World, so...  you will have times where 8 players accept, and then a player or multiple players will not load in before the 3 minute timer is done because they are playing on a potato in China/South America.  Then its back to matchmaking to queue again.
- Matches tend to be long, if you are doing at all well.  35-40 minutes are standard if you aren't getting knocked out early every time.


Really, really solid game.  I've been as high as Bishop 5, but I just do pubs so one sorta mediocre game will cost you a couple ranks, and going out early will knock you back down to Bishop 1.  Meanwhile, it takes a couple wins to go up one level. 

It will be interesting to see where this goes, but the parallels with the way Dota grew out of WCIII have already been made by alot of people....   and the cheap knockoffs are already hitting the mobile market.  It seems to have come along at the exact right moment with lots of folks being unenthused bye HS and Artifact dying a messy death. 


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Yegolev on February 11, 2019, 03:10:31 PM
A mod of a genre-creating mod creates a genre?


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: ezrast on February 11, 2019, 06:24:50 PM
Where does the strategic depth come in? What differentiates two skilled players?

This should be up my alley but I can't get past the utterly, bafflingly user-hostile newb experience - which I guess explains why the DotA crowd is into it - without some idea of what I can look forward to.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: schild on February 11, 2019, 06:42:56 PM
the hearthstone killer

wat


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Johny Cee on February 11, 2019, 07:56:40 PM
the hearthstone killer

wat

Just a joke... based on the earlier MTGA/Artifact hyperbole, everyone bitching about the latest HS expansion, and the fact that it seems like most of the big HS content creators are uploading nothing but Autochess.

It's still just a mod in another game.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Johny Cee on February 11, 2019, 08:13:03 PM
Where does the strategic depth come in? What differentiates two skilled players?

This should be up my alley but I can't get past the utterly, bafflingly user-hostile newb experience - which I guess explains why the DotA crowd is into it - without some idea of what I can look forward to.

There is no newb experience, you just get thrown into the general match-making pool.  Match making is a total shit show as you are just queued up with whomever joined at the same time, no ladder yet. 

Just watch a couple games...  on youtube Trump, Toast, Hafu, etc etc etc have been playing.  A bunch of the Dota pros/casters/content creators as well.  Savjz has some games that are decently informative without too much streamer bullshit.


The strategic depth is trying to smooth out your gameplan from early to mid to late game with the pool you have, figuring out what you are going for, cutting your losses and switching up, that sort of thing.  I'm still horrible at dealing with time crunch late game... basically, when you hit end game and it is really close, there is alot of reroll spamming (reroll to get a choice of new units to take, but costs gold), making quick cuts and substitutions, and getting everything in place and properly positioned in the 30 seconds you have between rounds. 


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: ezrast on February 12, 2019, 12:04:34 PM
That's exactly what I'm talking about - you have 30 seconds to cycle through units whose stats you can't see until after you buy them, trying to hit race/class breakpoints that can only be tallied by clicking through each of your units individually and hovering over their tooltips, trying to avoid unit types that other players are buying, which can only be judged by clicking on everyone *else's* units individually (but not in the combat phase because dead units are hidden; it has to be during that 30 seconds if you want a full picture).

Then you place units on the board in the clunkiest way possible (why on earth is the "move piece" ability on the hero and not the pieces? Why does it have a limited range? Why don't units combine automatically?) and then the fight starts and they all hop around according to logic that isn't written down anywhere. The fight comes to a resolution that bears no obvious relationship to the tactical choices either player has made and you do it all again.

There's so much hidden or poorly-exposed information that after something like five games I have absolutely no sense of which units are the good ones and don't really know how I would even evaluate that other than brute force trying everything.

I don't mean this to be incendiary because I am honestly trying to find the fun but after watching several games from Trump and Dog and trying it out myself I just don't get it at all.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Jeff Kelly on February 13, 2019, 03:59:47 AM
"easy to get into".

Well I'm probably stupid but I found it to be almost as confusing, arcane and unpenetrable as DOTA 2 and the player base to be almost as toxic.

I also tried to watch a few streamers play it and I honestly don't know what the fuck any of this is about or what's going on.

Any good tutorials/onboardings you could recommend?


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Chimpy on February 13, 2019, 04:49:14 AM
Well I'm probably stupid but I found it to be almost as confusing, arcane and unpenetrable as DOTA 2 and the player base to be almost as toxic.

The player base IS the DOTA 2 player base. Minus all the 12 year olds who left to play Fortnite  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Johny Cee on February 16, 2019, 08:27:26 AM
That's exactly what I'm talking about - you have 30 seconds to cycle through units whose stats you can't see until after you buy them, trying to hit race/class breakpoints that can only be tallied by clicking through each of your units individually and hovering over their tooltips, trying to avoid unit types that other players are buying, which can only be judged by clicking on everyone *else's* units individually (but not in the combat phase because dead units are hidden; it has to be during that 30 seconds if you want a full picture).

Then you place units on the board in the clunkiest way possible (why on earth is the "move piece" ability on the hero and not the pieces? Why does it have a limited range? Why don't units combine automatically?) and then the fight starts and they all hop around according to logic that isn't written down anywhere. The fight comes to a resolution that bears no obvious relationship to the tactical choices either player has made and you do it all again.

There's so much hidden or poorly-exposed information that after something like five games I have absolutely no sense of which units are the good ones and don't really know how I would even evaluate that other than brute force trying everything.

I don't mean this to be incendiary because I am honestly trying to find the fun but after watching several games from Trump and Dog and trying it out myself I just don't get it at all.

Here's some advice:

1. Play fucking units.  Just buy and play them out.  See how they do!  See how your oppo does!  Try to make 2* units.  You are worrying about whether you need a new carbon core $1,500 driver when you have only been on the golf course a few times.  Don't be afraid to swap units in and out!

2. Worry more about upgrades.  Synergies are good, and working with them is how you get the most out of your units, but...!  You can get plenty far with just a strategy of drafting/upgrading "good" units and not even worrying about synergies.  Beastmaster is considered a good unit, even though he is a Hunter which people are down on.  He is very tanky, and his ult (axes) does good damage and is mildly spammable.  Despite being a 2$ unit, people will have a 2* BM on there board into late game.\

Overall for early game,  if you just try to get multiple 2* units down you will do fine even if the units are crappy. 

3.  Stop planning so much.  You can't go into a game and say "I am playing trolls/warriors" or "I am playing mages" without seeing what you get offered and what you have completed!  Sometimes you will have no clue what you are playing till the late teen rounds.  (You will likely not win those...  but you can probably come in 2nd or 3rd) 

If you just try to force something from the get go, you are likely going to be sorry.

4.  I don't understand your complaints about board state/unit AI.  Your board position has a huge effect no what happens!  Put your guy with the big ult a little ahead and center of board to make sure you get your Disruptor ult/Tide ult down fast.  Someone with a powerful ult but is not tanky?  Position towards the top but a bit to the side.  The board leader is running assassins?  Back into the corner, so they can't jump in and delete your back line....  or put a couple tanks in the back line to bodyguard.

Each unit has an AI...  it has certain tendencies.  Assassins, if further back, jump all the way to the oppos back line and attack it.  If up close in attack range of the oppos front line, they will often not jump and just start taking shots.  Tanks hop up to engage.  Etc.

This stuff matters, BUT....  it is relatively minor!   Upgraded units matter more, then synergies, and finally things like positioning.

5.  I have never understood the complaints about "hidden" information.  That is the fucking point, you know?  You pick it up by playing!  If the information was available in a tool tip, you would be complaining that there is some other information that is not adequately explained.  As long as the stats/rules are consistent and can be inferred from play/experience, it can be a fun and rewarding portion of the game! 

You are playing pick up basketball and complaining that your team is not adequately performing complicated plays.

6. You are going to be realllllly unhappy when you discover the economy shit, which actually matters a great deal, when you are freaking out about a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter like unit AI and positioning.  :awesome_for_real:

______________________________________

I'm having a difficult time with these responses.  I literally just watched a few games, then started playing.  Bishop in four or five games, and have been bouncing around mid-Bishop since (yea, pubs!  One lose knocks you to Bish-1, then you need to win/place like 6 to crawl back up to Bish-5!)


Just! Make! Matches!

Let the other stuff flow from that, when you are deciding synergies come into play. (Drafted Axe in Round 1 as he is a strong tank.  Round 2 there is no 2 and no other Axe, but there is a Beastmaster.  Beast is a strong unit, and an orc for immediate synergy, so makes sense over a Tusk, who is a weak warrior.)

You can sell at any time!  So, you can buy units while your dudes are fighting and look at their stats...  then just sell them back before rounds end.

I rarely look at other players before late-late game.  Maybe just a quick double check to see what level everyone is, or if I have been sitting on two of a unit for many rounds and I am not getting a third... double check to make sure I am not the third or fourth guy trying to go Luna or Troll or whatever.

Positioning doesn't matter a whole lot til late game.  Tanks up front, back row dps.  Any CC unit needs to be front center to get an ult off ASAP.  Round 15 is wolves, who jump behind your units.  Switch up.  If you get slaughtered by AOE/assassins then yah sure... tweak your positioning.




Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: ezrast on February 16, 2019, 08:51:45 AM
Some good tips in there, thanks. Especially about buying-to-try; it never occurred to me to buy something just to immediately resell it since most games punish you for that.

You'll have to explain this one to me though:
Put your guy with the big ult a little ahead and center of board to make sure you get your Disruptor ult/Tide ult down fast.  Someone with a powerful ult but is not tanky?  Position towards the top but a bit to the side.
Why does being in the middle of the board let you get your ult off faster?


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Johny Cee on February 16, 2019, 09:48:42 AM
Some good tips in there, thanks. Especially about buying-to-try; it never occurred to me to buy something just to immediately resell it since most games punish you for that.

You'll have to explain this one to me though:
Put your guy with the big ult a little ahead and center of board to make sure you get your Disruptor ult/Tide ult down fast.  Someone with a powerful ult but is not tanky?  Position towards the top but a bit to the side.
Why does being in the middle of the board let you get your ult off faster?

Your units get mana based on:
1. Attacking
2. Taking damage

So we will take a Disruptor.  Considered a strong unit, with a powerful aoe damage/silence.  At 1*, he can be squishy if you don't have an item to give him or orc synergy...  so put him front line but slightly offset.  He wants to take some damage but not get killed before ult.  At 2* (you have found three of him and combined) he is pretty tanky and can go center of the board and up one space from everyone else...  you want him to face tank the opposing line, get that ult off, and then you don't care if he dies your other units are cleaning up!

Damage and health:  You take damage based on the level of surviving enemy units.  So early game, you can afford to lose a bunch while you are trying to figure things out.  Most people recommend not rerolling early game, and just trying to get your matches and maybe putting some dudes on the bench.  Trump just had a vid on the "open fort" strat where you just concede early game to get your gold up to 50 to max out interest and collect losing streak bonuses, for instance.

late game, if your oppos are wrecking you you will be out of the match fast as damage is 10-15 versus early games 1-5.

In general:

Early game - Get 2* units.  Get the next courier levels, to stay even with your opponents and get the next tier units offered.  Accumulate gold to get your interest. 
Mid game (round 12-15 to 22-25) - You should have your synergies and mid-game line up set.  Courier level should be around 7 with plans on getting to 8-9 for late game. Warrior front-line with a 2* SF for dps, working on your warlock synergy?  Sure!
Late game - Synergies fall off, hard.  It is about CC, AOE damage, and those juicy 5$ units.  Units/synergies that were crap early game come back around....  If you are running disruptor, throw in Shadow Shaman.  SS is junk, but instant hex is powerful!  Medusa/Tide for naga synergy (-20% magic damage received) is great!  Shit, I will keep a 2* slardar on my bench sometimes for when I am ready to drop the Medusa in as extra CC to help survive the initial burst until I roll into Tide.


Typical game:

Get offered mechs early.  Clock and Timbersaw, even at 1*, are pretty solid with mech synergy.  Tinker is bad, but mech synergy is strong.  Throw in a bounty for goblin synergy and dps and you are fine.  This gives you breathing room to figure out where you are going and working on getting a carry.
Mechs fall off.  Transition to 4 knights on the back of getting CK and Lunas, maybe look at getting a Necro so that you have Undead synergy with your Abaddon.  If you are in warriors, Disruptor is a solid complement and you would love a Troll Warlord and another troll to get Troll synnergy.  Build out economy.
Late game, you are trying to fit in parts from high tier units that increase your power at the cost of your mid-game synergies.  So you were in knights, you have dropped some in favor of Kunkka (boat is that strong!) and to put in a 1* Enigma.
Finally, you hit the "oh shit!" rounds.  Oppos that close to death will be spamming reroll to stop the hemoraghing and drop that 2* Tide or Techies, or finish off that 3* carry.  You have to furiously manage bench, and swap in your upgrades, and tweak your postions all in 30 seconds.


A good rule of thumb on unit strength:  Multiply out the dollar cost by number of units.   Tusk is a 1$ unit, a 2* tusk is worth around 3$ on your board.  Troll is a 4$ unit, so probably more value than a 2* tusk.  Some units are just stronger... Shadowfiend is reallly strong, even at level 1, for a 2$ unit.  Deciding if you want to go for that 2* Doom or keep that 2* SF is TOUGHHHH.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Johny Cee on February 16, 2019, 09:57:24 AM
Well I'm probably stupid but I found it to be almost as confusing, arcane and unpenetrable as DOTA 2 and the player base to be almost as toxic.

The player base IS the DOTA 2 player base. Minus all the 12 year olds who left to play Fortnite  :why_so_serious:

I just...  I have noticed zero toxicity.  Mostly, people don't even chat...  maybe 10 lines of text in all my games so far, and that was after matchmaking shit the bed some dudes decided to make a custom lobby.  Honestly, it is incredibly likely that the other players in your match don't share a language with you.  Something like 2-4 players will be Chinese/have chinese character names, another couple will be from Latin America, maybe everyone knows a bit of English but are too busy to communicate.

The only toxicity I have heard about is low ranked players sneaking into Bishop/Rook lobbies, as the way matchmaking works getting beat by a Pawn means losing a giant chunk of MMR.  Those are private lobbies, and you will be told to messily die as it is assumed you're doing it to troll reaaaaaalllly hard.


Also:  CSGO pro warms up by playing autochess

https://clips.twitch.tv/HandsomeStrangeMilkDatBoi


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Azuredream on February 16, 2019, 11:46:01 AM
I started playing this a few days ago and I'm hooked. I haven't noticed any toxicity. Most of my games no one says anything, and even when they do it's in another language most of the time.

They changed the human racial from disarm to silence- it can really put a damper on frontline Medusa/Distruptor/Tide strats if the human is matched up straight opposite the board. My go-to strategy lately has been Elf/Dragon, 4 Orc, or 4 Troll. Most other synergies late-game seem pretty useless. It's almost never worth to go more than 4 knight, 3 warrior, 3 mage, 3 hunter, 3 warlock, 3 assassin, etc. Getting 3 star units of 1$ and 2$ units is rarely worth going for. If I have a 2 star tusk I'll buy more tusks early if I see them, but be ready the entire time to sell them off since I usually want to replace him as soon as I can. But some games you can get lucky and get the 3 star. General rule of thumb I would use is- would I run 2 2 stars of this unit in my line-up? If yes, go for it, if no, don't bother. Usually my backrow is constantly full because I buy every good unit I see even if I have no synergy for it (yet) so I don't have room to be going for 3 star tusks or axes. I try to make sure my money is at an amount divisible by 10 whenever I can, since the interest is 10%.

I do wish they'd smooth out the item RNG. Maybe make it so every wave has at least 1 guaranteed item, but with a random chance to get more. Feels bad killing a creep wave and getting literally nothing.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on February 16, 2019, 06:56:37 PM
I played 1 game so far. Ive been getting destroyed. No idea what I'm doing. Game feels bad.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: schild on February 16, 2019, 07:30:28 PM
Wait til Riot rips it off and makes it a standalone title.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on February 16, 2019, 09:17:04 PM
I watched a video or two, played another game. I kind of get it now. It's fun.. maybe.

I have to learn the race class synergies.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Johny Cee on February 16, 2019, 09:53:40 PM
I started playing this a few days ago and I'm hooked. I haven't noticed any toxicity. Most of my games no one says anything, and even when they do it's in another language most of the time.

They changed the human racial from disarm to silence- it can really put a damper on frontline Medusa/Distruptor/Tide strats if the human is matched up straight opposite the board. My go-to strategy lately has been Elf/Dragon, 4 Orc, or 4 Troll. Most other synergies late-game seem pretty useless. It's almost never worth to go more than 4 knight, 3 warrior, 3 mage, 3 hunter, 3 warlock, 3 assassin, etc. Getting 3 star units of 1$ and 2$ units is rarely worth going for. If I have a 2 star tusk I'll buy more tusks early if I see them, but be ready the entire time to sell them off since I usually want to replace him as soon as I can. But some games you can get lucky and get the 3 star. General rule of thumb I would use is- would I run 2 2 stars of this unit in my line-up? If yes, go for it, if no, don't bother. Usually my backrow is constantly full because I buy every good unit I see even if I have no synergy for it (yet) so I don't have room to be going for 3 star tusks or axes. I try to make sure my money is at an amount divisible by 10 whenever I can, since the interest is 10%.

I do wish they'd smooth out the item RNG. Maybe make it so every wave has at least 1 guaranteed item, but with a random chance to get more. Feels bad killing a creep wave and getting literally nothing.

On 3*:

Yah, generally not worth it unless it is already a strong unit.  Better to ask yourself:  I'm I going to get rid of this in the late game?  If so, not worth.  On the other hand guys like Axe or Beastmaster, who are strong already and tend to stick around, go from being there but weak late game to being fairly solid.  The "play 2 2*" rule falls down in cases where 2 2* are often better:  Razor, SF, DK, Kunnka (mostly).  The splash damage/aoe effects are sometimes better with two fairly strong sources rather than one really strong unit vulnerable to getting picked off.  3* Kunkka is a boss, but I'd rather have multiple boats unless I'm just passing rounds until my opponent finally gives up the ghost.

The exceptions for 3* units are ones that you want to hard carry but fall off.  Drow and Luna are the prime examples.  I've run many a game with Drow as my carry.  She is considered to kinda suck, so not much competition.  Her ability amplifies damage/attack speed, so great item carrier.  Undead synergy is boss till late.  You are already prepped for late game since you want a Medusa for CC already, and now that Medusa is a reasonable threat with Hunter damage and -armor.  Drow really needs to be 3* though.

Luna is similar.  Her attacks bounce so great item carrier, Knight synergy on your carry means that you can run 4 Knights no problem into late game to help with damage mitigation, etc.  Still a risk of falling off if you don't get her to 3* though...  mostly I draft CK, Abba/Omni, and DK though... so if one of the other late game players is in Luna hard and you aren't getting her you can just sell and pivot to Dragon strat.

I'd put Jugg in a similar position.  Strong mid game unit, gets kind of weak late game.  People generally replace Jugg fairly quickly, so not uncommon to be able to pick up the 3*.   He isn't massive then, but he becomes a much better tank that deals pretty good damage and is mostly better than a 1* 5$ unit.


Trolls are really overrated.  Troll Warlord is great, but the rest are crap.  Batrider is garbage, Shadow Shaman isn't very good until late game (but this locks you into disruptor for insta hex), and Witchdoctor is okay.   Four trolls lock you out of other strats though.  Really tough to try to get warlock synergy (which is solid recovery), Naga (damage mitigation on late game alphas), etc  Basically, 4 trolls plus disruptor plus one other orc to make sure disruptor gets his ult off means six slots.  That leaves two slots that need to be CC, so Kunkka or Tide.  If you are at 9 or 10 slots and sitting pretty you have already won, and your economy is good enough that you are going to be looking to drop multiple 2*

Two troll (Troll Warlord plus Witchdoctor) is better.  Lets you keep an SF on the board for dps, pick up an Alch/Necro for lifesteal, and drop two extra warriors to give your Warlord armor.  Still space to slot in the rando 5$ Enigma or Lich or Techies or Tide, and to drop in the Naga for lockdown.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Johny Cee on February 16, 2019, 10:01:00 PM
Wait til Riot rips it off and makes it a standalone title.

Isn't Riot owned by Tencent?  Their Autochess will be a mobile game dependent on microtransactions to actually play.  Old Riot would have just made you grind games to gain enough IP to unlock the new broken unit.  :awesome_for_real:


I wouldn't be surprised if Valve picks this up and pushes it as their new "free" promotional game to keep driving people to Steam, now that the bloom is wearing off of Dota a bit.  Especially as I think per the terms of developing the game in the Dota client they actually have some ownership stake in anything developed on the platform.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on February 18, 2019, 05:55:31 AM
I'm having more fun than I should with this game.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Rasix on February 18, 2019, 08:52:42 AM
Wait til Riot rips it off and makes it a standalone title.

Isn't Riot owned by Tencent?  Their Autochess will be a mobile game dependent on microtransactions to actually play.  Old Riot would have just made you grind games to gain enough IP to unlock the new broken unit.  :awesome_for_real:


I wouldn't be surprised if Valve picks this up and pushes it as their new "free" promotional game to keep driving people to Steam, now that the bloom is wearing off of Dota a bit.  Especially as I think per the terms of developing the game in the Dota client they actually have some ownership stake in anything developed on the platform.

Tencent owns a lot of stuff. Most of Grinding Gears (PoE), huge stakes in Epic and PUBG, etc. But yah, expect aggressive monetization. They also own Supercell. Clash of Autochess incoming.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on February 18, 2019, 09:48:29 AM
This would make a pretty good mobile game from just a playability point of view. Monetizing the shit out of it would make it suck obviously.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: schild on February 19, 2019, 06:13:36 AM
Tencent isn't in the business of killing games with monetization. They're in the business of farming information for the Chinese government. You really shouldn't play anything they touch. Also, they made their gov'ts human tracking / credit system (well, one of them - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System ).

Tencent is basically social skynet and they're the fucking devil and you should avoid all their shit. I'm not even kidding. They can get fucked.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Hoax on February 19, 2019, 08:19:32 AM
I'm not going to avoid PoE as much as I want to spite China. If someone else wants to make an ARPG that isn't shit I'm all for that but for now they are the only show and the way they handled crafting and maps is so good that I want most other games to rip it off.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Falconeer on February 19, 2019, 09:09:48 AM
Warhammer Chaossomething https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plUQqqgo_uc


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Hoax on February 19, 2019, 10:01:19 AM
Warhammer Chaossomething https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plUQqqgo_uc

You are linking a game made by guys who are probably basing it off their I Will Survive series experience. I haven't played those titles but #1 you played 0hrs and Schild got 0.2hrs out of it. With a 60 metacritic score (who cares) and a bit of mixed reviews on Steam but not horrible.

The sequel you played just under 2hrs, so again it didn't grab you. Schild didn't even buy it and again metacritic gave it a very pedestrian 70 score but steam is mainly positive though its mixed in recent reviews. So yeah. I'm not going to get excited about that.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Falconeer on February 19, 2019, 10:21:32 AM
I was mostly joking. I just happened to stumble on that video 5 seconds after reading your post.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Jeff Kelly on March 18, 2019, 04:07:11 AM
Are there any good offline guides on the chess pieces and the synergies. Trying to stay on top of things while the 30 second in game timer runs is almost impossible for a newb and even most online resources like the subreddit assume that you already have a working knowledge about dota and the different characters/items


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: jth on March 18, 2019, 09:35:53 AM
Are there any good offline guides on the chess pieces and the synergies. Trying to stay on top of things while the 30 second in game timer runs is almost impossible for a newb and even most online resources like the subreddit assume that you already have a working knowledge about dota and the different characters/items

I don't know about offline guides, but Amaz has made some Youtube guides that were very helpful to me as a complete beginner (who also never touched Dota).

Auto Chess Guide For Beginners (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxMRaJjMr2Q)
Unit guide (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tuz_DeTtqoM)
Positioning guide (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDQxtjeCCt4)
Synergies & Tribes guide (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfcZTWOByPg)


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Jeff Kelly on March 18, 2019, 09:50:42 AM
Wrong word, what I meant was resources outside of the game. Trying to get all of the info during a game with the not really great UI is difficult.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: schild on March 18, 2019, 12:57:53 PM
is hearthstone dead yet?


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: naum on March 18, 2019, 01:43:43 PM
is hearthstone dead yet?

no


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Rendakor on March 18, 2019, 02:29:43 PM
Can whatever this is be played on a cellphone? Because I thought that was Hearthstone's selling point.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Jeff Kelly on March 18, 2019, 02:33:18 PM
They are working on a mobile version, which they’ll probably put out as soon as they figured out a way to not get sued by Valve over use of the Dota artworks and IPs.

Right now they’re already on thin ice. They can use the Dota IP because it’s a mod, but Valves TOS prohibit commercialization and they have micro transactions.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on March 18, 2019, 03:15:26 PM
A mobile version is in the works it seems.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Rendakor on March 18, 2019, 03:33:43 PM
Until (unless?) that's a thing I don't even see how this is a Hearthstone competitor.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Azuredream on May 21, 2019, 05:10:37 PM
Looks like they're officially doing it (http://blog.dota2.com/2019/05/dota-auto-chess/), although they couldn't come to an agreement with the original maker (who is making his own non-dota themed mobile version). I'll be very interested to see what they do with it, since I still play the mod occasionally.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Falconeer on June 13, 2019, 04:21:52 PM
Here's the Valve actual version of it. Underlords. I don't like the cel-shading style.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2Mle4rbaog


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on June 14, 2019, 09:03:47 AM
In case you didn't know, Riot is putting out their own version too.

Open beta for both I think starts next week. I personally love this genre right now. My old man twitch skills aren't required.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Johny Cee on June 16, 2019, 07:25:41 AM
Valve's "DOTA Underlords" is pre-Open Beta...  basically if you have a DOTA Battlepass you get access, going to Open Beta next week.  The interface is very Mobile friendly right now, so seems like they are definitely going for all platforms.
 Trump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJKJ7B06eFE
 Purge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn9t9QprFE8

Riot's Teamfight Tactics has no gameplay footage out yet, but there are a number of folks talking about playing it at Riot's HQ...  supposedly Open Beta later this month.

Drodo (original mod team) released a mobile version, and has an exclusive PC version to hit the Epic store some time soon.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on June 16, 2019, 10:28:15 AM
I'm not a fan of the Drodo mobile art style.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Azuredream on June 16, 2019, 11:13:26 AM
Same. Plus while all the units are the same mechanically I don't want to bother learning the different names/visuals. Underlords uses (mostly) the same units and has what looks to be a much better item system. Should be an easier transition from DAC.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Johny Cee on June 16, 2019, 12:32:12 PM
I've tried the mobile version of the Drodo version, but really tough on a phone.  The interface seemed really awkward if you are used to playing on PC...  tough to do the fast buys/subs/sells/swaps.  Haven't played much Autochess lately since I have a "no PC games while SigOther is home" policy combined with work being crazy and the dog being needy.


The massive fight to see who is going to win the genre this Summer sounds like it will provide some good entertainment value.  Valve vs Riot vs Epic vs whomever bribes the government best wins the China market.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on June 17, 2019, 04:55:24 AM
Currently I think Valve is going to win because t hey seem to have the most "i get why this game is fun" sense. I've watched a few vids of the people talking about playing the Riot version. They seem to think the game is more of a "non serious fun party game". The chess board they use is like 3 rows deep.

If anything Valve will make Magic the Gathering and Riot will make Hearthstone.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Johny Cee on June 17, 2019, 10:55:06 AM
I feel dumb, but I just came to the realization that Blizzard is nowhere to be seen in this?  Especially because of the number of Hearthstone streamers that were sharing time or jumping ship to DAC.  Is this going to be another HotS situation where they are way too late to the party? 

It's a simple game to make, and Blizzard has a shit-ton of art/lore assets to use for it... crank something out.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on June 17, 2019, 11:49:38 AM
Blizzard is slow. Valve and Riot essentially made their versions of the game in like 6 months or less.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Job601 on June 20, 2019, 07:35:48 PM
I tried the Valve mobile version today having never played autochess or the Riot version, and the fast development time really shows.  It lacks polish and doesn't communicate what's going on or how your decisions matter very clearly, doesn't have any tips to help you learn the systems, and doesn't hold your hand at all.  The tutorial explains about three things. I think I get it, but I've been playing games like this forever.  It's a hardcore experience that assumes its audience has been playing autochess or at least watching it on twitch.  It still feels like playing a Warcraft III mod in its mercilessness and lack of clarity.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on June 21, 2019, 04:56:23 AM
It's a more polished version of the mod. The "newbie" experience surrounding it doesn't exist. It took me a day or two of playing a few games to get it.

You need to understand:

1) Each unit has two classifications (I forget what Valve's are called, but essentially Race and Class).
2) Collecting certain numbers of either Race or Class gives buffs like item sets.
3) Combined 3 like units makes it got from 1 star to 2 star. Three 2 stars makes a 3 star.
4) Build comps that win.

Each round you get to pick between 5 units to recruit to your army. You can reroll those 5 or "buy a new pack" for 2 gold. You can spend 5 gold to gain 4 xp towards your next level. Each level allows you to deploy another unit up to 10 total. Each round you get bonus gold for win/loss streaks. Every 10 gold nets you 1 extra gold per level up to 50 gold (5 extra gold per level).

That's it essentially.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Setanta on June 22, 2019, 11:43:56 PM
I've played both versions of the mobile game now and still have NFI what I'm doing. I'm about to do some research on it as I seem to do ok for the first 5-6 rounds and then get crushed


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Hoax on June 23, 2019, 06:38:47 AM
Well it took me 4 tries but now that I've beat the bots on challenging I'm sure I've mastered this enough to give advice.  :why_so_serious:

I was having similar trouble with winning early rounds then losing at the end. I think the trap was I would fall in love with the early units that got me the win streak and instead of transitioning to those sweet higher tier units I would try to 3-star them. Don't do that.

Enigma, Lich, Tide, Medusa, Gyro etc. those units are bananas. You want to transition to those or you will lose to the bots that do.

(https://i.imgur.com/gsLHkVb.jpg)

Only Slardar and Slark had been on the squad since early rounds, which meant likewise that Scaled was the only synergy I used all game. QoP prob should have been but I was chasing SF for awhile and I'm always tempted by Doom. Also QoP was mediocre because my opponents were all running AM felt like I probably could have had a much better 3rd assassin. Veno was shit. I'm not sure he was worth it just for 15% lifesteal but I think he might have been.

Ok real advice, you get +1 interest for every 10 gold you have up to +5. So never ever have more than 50 gold. Do use your bench slots. Do not chase more than 1 3-star at a time (probably?). You can drag units onto the field past the cap for temporary storage space btwn rounds. Positioning positioning positioning, its probably important.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on June 23, 2019, 11:53:10 PM
You have to get a feel of what units are powerful when. The way to win is how to transition from early to mid to late game. Some comps really suck. Like 6 warlocks is stupid.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Rasix on June 25, 2019, 02:00:16 PM
I'm pretty terrible at this. Playing on my phone.

I do OK early. Do OK mid. Then the end comes, and I fall apart. Also, I'm always poor. First time experiencing this type of game in any form.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on June 25, 2019, 11:42:43 PM
Stop rerolling so much and build an economy. Don't force a build, let it come to you.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: lamaros on June 26, 2019, 12:04:07 AM
Which is the version you are all playing?


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: HaemishM on June 26, 2019, 09:02:16 AM
I tried Dota Underlords last night. I do not fucking understand this game, nor do I understand why it's popular. It made almost no fucking sense to me and I couldn't figure out what the fuck was happening or why I was getting ROFLstomped.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on June 26, 2019, 01:24:00 PM
Takes a few games and I'd suggest watching a few people on Youtube if you're really interested. Amaz or Slashspit on Youtube.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: HaemishM on June 27, 2019, 06:54:30 AM
I watched a tutorial video and it all became much clearer. Holy shit, is this a dense, completely incomprehensible mess without that sort of initiation. I realize there's a tutorial and I think it should probably be mandatory before being allowed to play, otherwise it's just inscrutably thick and unintuitive. However, I did find myself enjoying it. It's got a very deckbuilder feel to it, only without the prebuilt deck so there's much more randomness to it.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Falconeer on June 27, 2019, 09:15:40 AM
While I agree with you Haemish, this is another case where what "would be the best idea" ends up being completely irrelevant considering how much popularity the whole thing (the whole three games) got and how quickly. I am with you in the sense that I can't understand the game and it did not trigger anything for me to want to understand more. But I don't know if a tutorial would have made things better, maybe the fact that nothing hooked me right away means that tutorials only matter if something intangible is already pulling you in, while on the other hand the total lack of help and the absolute obscurity are not a hurdle when something (visuals? interface? sounds? hype) clicks with a player before even understanding the game.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Chimpy on June 27, 2019, 12:06:25 PM
I watched a tutorial video and it all became much clearer. Holy shit, is this a dense, completely incomprehensible mess without that sort of initiation. I realize there's a tutorial and I think it should probably be mandatory before being allowed to play, otherwise it's just inscrutably thick and unintuitive. However, I did find myself enjoying it. It's got a very deckbuilder feel to it, only without the prebuilt deck so there's much more randomness to it.

It is a spin-off of DOTA2 which “dense and incomprehensible to start” is pretty much a given.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Jeff Kelly on June 28, 2019, 03:36:35 AM
Yeah but this by and large makes it into DOTA - the collectible miniature game.

Meaning that it has become intensely popular in a very small, dedicated bubble of ultra hard core people. People who have no problem with the arcane rules, rough presentation and the fact that you need three wikis, Twitch and a few professional youtubers plus several sunreddits to make sense of it all.

Also means that outside of that small bubble no one has even heard of it.

I get it, because I'm the same when it comes to Kerbal Space Program but if they're not Hearthstoning this thing all 3 games will be on the same level as DOTA or League. On the other hand though heroes of the storm never took off so maybe it needs to be dense and incomprehensible.

If I had to redesign it (armchair gamer)

- the race/class synergies and the effects need to be much more prominently displayed and need much better explanations. My reference for this is actually the way Slay the spire does it. Better textual representation. Hot Links with information for every effect better On-Screen representation of the effects and synergies
- Tutorial mode against AI
- Game mode without time limits or with a much more relaxed time limit, potentially just vs. AI. Game is hard to learn because you're always against the 30 second time limit. Keep the time limit for network but remove/relax it for learning the game.
- the movement patterns of the monsters are barely explained. This needs to be much clearer because it can affect placement and effectiveness late game. Ideally display it on the board for selected pieces (like Into the Breach)
- maybe lose the chess-like placement of pieces completely? The mechanic is only tangentially usefull in the late game when you have only one or two opponents left. It also degenerates into a "who can rearrange their pieces faster until the timer runs out" tug of war.




Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: HaemishM on June 28, 2019, 07:02:55 AM
DOTA Underlords actually has a non-timer mode - you just have to check the box under "Pause" mode when you create the game. I don't know if this is applicable to non-bot/AI games though. In-game tooltips and explanation of why some shit is doing what it's doing would be boffo. I don't think it'll be a very big hit because it is super autistic. I'm actually kind of surprised the mod was successful enough to force both Valve and Riot into making their own versions, but I'm guessing the game itself is so fucking easy to program that it was one of those "get Kyle to program this shit over the weekend."


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Jeff Kelly on June 28, 2019, 08:16:49 AM
It is a huge streaming game.

I like watching it get played much more than playing it myself as well.

Riot and Valve probably looking more into the e sports potential of it.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Falconeer on June 28, 2019, 01:02:53 PM
I am pretty sure they took the two people left working on the Artifact redesign and relaunch to make this. Gabe Newell kind of confirmed this yesterday in the Valve Index presentation speech.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on June 29, 2019, 12:04:17 AM
Underlords mobile is probably the best mobile game I've played. It's essentially the desktop game with all of the trappings. 


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Hoax on July 13, 2019, 12:27:13 PM
TFT despite being amateur hour in presentation and with some horrible balance stuff (ALSO YOU SHOULDNT LOSE HP FOR LOSING IN PVE) that needs to be worked out is way fucking better than Underlords.

#1 the item system is way more impactful and better.

#2 it feels more random, which is sort of the idea of this genre

#3 the overall balance is atrocious but the hero to hero balance seems to be much better executed. Yasuo is like the only just throw this guy on any lineup hero I can think of. Underlords felt worse on that front by a lot to me.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Trippy on July 13, 2019, 12:40:17 PM
Twitch viewership would agree. TFT is about an order of magnitude more popular than Underlords right now.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Draegan on July 13, 2019, 01:21:34 PM
This is true, but I like Underlords better. I played some TFT and I just didn't like the package. That mostly has to do with not know any of the alliances or what's going on. TFT item system is better though.

I'm not sure if i'm indifferent or don't like the board layout (hex vs squares).


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Azuredream on July 14, 2019, 02:04:39 AM
I can't stand the item system in TFT. If you don't get enough items (or the correct items) you might as well just quit. The game isn't about who can build up good unit levels and synergies it's about who throws the perfect combination of 3 items on a Draven/Asol/Vayne/whatever. Or whoever abuses the 6 sorcerer locket stacking/luden's bullshit. Your unit comp is so irrelevant in comparison to how you use the items you get. It's got a lot of depth in who uses what items the best but it still just feels so ridiculously unfun losing because you got less items. I want to win because my team has good synergy and positioning, not because I have some uber hypercarry that everyone else is just there to buff/protect.

It is much faster paced which I much prefer. You take a lot more damage and the creeps are much more threatening. Lose streaking to 50g is an extreme high risk strategy. There's a lot more early rolling than Underlords which is just a snoozefest for the first 20 rounds. If they sped up the pace of the game by making summons do damage or just upping damage from surviving units in general I think Underlords would be much more fun.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Chimpy on July 14, 2019, 05:12:23 AM
Twitch viewership would agree. TFT is about an order of magnitude more popular than Underlords right now.


I would bet a fair amount of money that the people who play each game are mostly people familiar with the source game. And LoL has an order of magnitude more twitch viewers than DOTA2.

Hell, I would bet the vast majority of TFT players never even heard of "auto chess" before Riot did their launch.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Trippy on July 14, 2019, 07:49:55 AM
Twitch viewership would agree. TFT is about an order of magnitude more popular than Underlords right now.
I would bet a fair amount of money that the people who play each game are mostly people familiar with the source game. And LoL has an order of magnitude more twitch viewers than DOTA2.
No, it doesn’t.


Title: Re: DOTA 2 Autochess, the Hearthstone killer
Post by: Bungee on July 16, 2019, 12:48:10 AM
Went 53 rounds yesterday, with the final ~30 rounds spent on 6hp as my lineup finally came together. Finished second because my Enigma got Human silenced...
Round 45 is the Year Beast and round 50 is Roshan. Got Heart of Tarrasque as a drop there, didn't help sadly.

Game is great for quenching the DotA thirst and being able to play it on mobile is awesome. I like.