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f13.net General Forums => Serious Business => Topic started by: Tale on April 20, 2017, 09:39:17 PM



Title: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Tale on April 20, 2017, 09:39:17 PM
Their juice comes in bags. You can pour juice by hand. (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-04-19/silicon-valley-s-400-juicer-may-be-feeling-the-squeeze)

Quote
Doug Evans, the company’s founder, would compare himself with Steve Jobs in his pursuit of juicing perfection. He declared that his juice press wields four tons of force—“enough to lift two Teslas,” he said. Google’s venture capital arm and other backers poured about $120 million into the startup. Juicero sells the machine for $400, plus the cost of individual juice packs delivered weekly. Tech blogs have dubbed it a “Keurig for juice.”

But after the product hit the market, some investors were surprised to discover a much cheaper alternative: You can squeeze the Juicero bags with your bare hands.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: IainC on April 21, 2017, 01:02:20 AM
There's so much to unpack from that article.

Quote
One of the investors said they were frustrated with how the company didn’t deliver on the original pitch and that their venture firm wouldn’t have met with Evans if he were hawking bags of juice that didn’t require high-priced hardware. Juicero didn’t broadly disclose to investors or employees that packs can be hand squeezed, said four people with knowledge of the matter.

Doug Chertok, a Juicero investor, said he figured it out on his own. “There is no doubt the packs can be squeezed without the machine,” he said. “I’m still a huge fan.”

Quote
The company sells produce packs for $5 to $8 but limits sales to owners of Juicero hardware. The products were only available in three states until Tuesday, when the company expanded to 17. Packs can’t be shipped long distances because the contents are perishable.

[...]

Kippy Williams, owner of Kippy’s Organic Non-Dairy Ice Cream Shop in Los Angeles and Toyko, said she purchased her Juicero late last year for $1,200. (Juicero charges businesses a premium, she said.) Williams, a self-proclaimed health-food evangelist, said she’d like to see the company sell packs by themselves to people who can’t afford the device. “It would be great if they offered people the opportunity to buy the packs and press them by hand,” she said. “I want juice for every man, woman and child.”

I too dream of a future where everyone, rich and poor alike can buy $8 bags of a single DIY glass of fruit juice.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Tebonas on April 21, 2017, 01:21:29 AM
Are these plastic bags and a device that needs to be connected to the internet for a glass of juice?

There are first world problems and there is perverting an idea. "Lets make organic juice, but lets pollute the earth to ridiculous amounts to do it."

If Hypocracy could kill, these people would be long dead. Organic shop, sure.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Ironwood on April 21, 2017, 02:06:59 AM
Fools, Money, etc.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Strazos on April 21, 2017, 02:11:42 AM
I thought you need fresh fruits and such to use with a juicer - pre-juiced packs seem kind of pointless.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: IainC on April 21, 2017, 04:01:21 AM
I thought you need fresh fruits and such to use with a juicer - pre-juiced packs seem kind of pointless.
As I understand it, the packs are filled with pulp and the juicer presses the juice out of that. The product video in the article shows the user scooping remaining pulp out of a used juice pack for recycling.

But yes, in general the whole fucking thing is pointless. It's a $400 machine that requires $8 proprietary juice packs to provide a single glass of juice. Also, it won't work without a network connection for some reason.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Rendakor on April 21, 2017, 06:59:31 AM
What a stupid idea. :uhrr:


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Yegolev on April 21, 2017, 07:00:04 AM
I found some juice packs in my grocery store that - on the outside at least - look identical to various fruits.  They are also cheaper, but do not come with a machine to squeeze out the juice.

I started off squeezing the juice myself, but some of the packs were harder to juice than others.  Then I had to recycle the package.  Taking a cue from "Leave No Trace", once I realized that the package and contents were 100% biodegradable, I sumped the contents and tossed the outer packaging into my yard.  This had the added benefit of allowing me to ingest the juice of the more-difficult-to-squeeze packs, while also ingesting dietary fiber.

/lifehack


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Merusk on April 21, 2017, 07:04:36 AM
Shit, that's genius. I bet you'll never hear about THAT solution from Big Juice and Big Food.

Those fuckers.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Yegolev on April 21, 2017, 07:09:15 AM
Do not get the pack that looks like a potato.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: HaemishM on April 21, 2017, 07:52:43 AM
What a stupid idea. :uhrr:

This is the kind of stupid device that can only be sold to tech heads and complete fucking idiots. I mean, what the fuck is wrong with just squeezing the fruit yourself? Or, god forbid, do the healthier thing than drinking the juice and just eat the fruit? You get all the same nutrients but you also get the fiber from the fruit that helps your body move the sugar through instead of letting all that shit collect in your liver.

The most idiotic part about the whole thing is the actual juice packs. Someone who does not live in their Silicon Valley bubble should be able to see that there is the real business idea worth pursuing. Get the juice pack thing right, and by that I mean make it so you can ship that shit anywhere and its fairly shelf stable and cheap, you can make a killing. A fucking Internet connected hunk of 3d molded plastic built around a smartphone app for tracking juice pack purchases.

Get tae fuck with that.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Samwise on April 21, 2017, 07:55:54 AM
Do not get the pack that looks like a potato.

 :drill:


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: IainC on April 21, 2017, 08:03:03 AM

The most idiotic part about the whole thing is the actual juice packs. Someone who does not live in their Silicon Valley bubble should be able to see that there is the real business idea worth pursuing. Get the juice pack thing right, and by that I mean make it so you can ship that shit anywhere and its fairly shelf stable and cheap, you can make a killing.

(http://i.imgur.com/UhTMKIK.jpg)


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: HaemishM on April 21, 2017, 08:03:28 AM
Now that's just 20th century thinking right there.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Sir T on April 21, 2017, 08:57:07 AM
So what happens to your 1400 juicer when the company folds, the servers get turned off, and you cant get it squeesing anymore as a result.

I need to go to the "internet of shit" twitter page and cry a lot.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: calapine on April 21, 2017, 10:18:15 AM
The statements by the CEO make it even worse:

Juicero CEO Begs You: Do NOT Squeeze Our Juice Bags (http://gizmodo.com/juicero-ceo-begs-you-do-not-open-our-juice-bags-1794507811)


(http://i.imgur.com/jxodWfk.png) (http://i.imgur.com/3UKXZxS.png)


Also what what wasn't mentioned yet: This product got 120 million investor funding, making it the best funded startup of 2016. The initial sale price was 700 Dollar.

And it doesn't work if not connected to the internet:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C96T3BtVwAEiqcg.jpg)

 :angryfist: :angryfist: :angryfist:


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Morat20 on April 21, 2017, 10:21:07 AM
The weirdest part is -- I suspect all the markup is on the bags, that's where all the profit probably comes from. They can charge several times what those bags cost to customers. The machines they probably sell at a very small markup, if any at all.

SO why bother with the expensive, internet enabled machine?


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Samwise on April 21, 2017, 10:21:46 AM
I wonder if they could prosecute hand-squeezing under the DMCA, given that it's a circumvention of digital protection and the juice recipe is (I assume) copyrighted.

(edit) The point of the machine, I imagine, is to lock you in to their propriety juice bag format so you don't switch to a cheaper competitor a few months from now.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Yegolev on April 21, 2017, 10:23:23 AM
Eight days is not many days.  Purposely so, I think.

I wonder if they could prosecute hand-squeezing under the DMCA, given that it's a circumvention of digital protection and the juice recipe is (I assume) copyrighted.

Excellent thought.  Let's go into business together prosecuting cheapskates.

Can this thing be loaded with ice cream?


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Morat20 on April 21, 2017, 10:50:48 AM
I wonder if they could prosecute hand-squeezing under the DMCA, given that it's a circumvention of digital protection and the juice recipe is (I assume) copyrighted.

(edit) The point of the machine, I imagine, is to lock you in to their propriety juice bag format so you don't switch to a cheaper competitor a few months from now.
Yeah, but why not a cheap machine -- you'd probably make similar money off a 150 dollar machine without internet crap ? You'd not really lose money if all your money is in the juice bag markups. You'd probably end up with more people buying the stupid things.

Then again, if you're spending 400 dollars -- buy a Vitamix blender and make your own. Those things will blend a tree stump. (Seriously, those things are worth every penny, although I recommend their refurbished ones. Save 100 to 150 for the same dang thing)


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: HaemishM on April 21, 2017, 11:12:18 AM
Yeah, but why not a cheap machine -- you'd probably make similar money off a 150 dollar machine without internet crap ?

How then would we get millions in venture capital from tech bubbleheads?


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Merusk on April 21, 2017, 11:32:51 AM
If I buy a vita I'd I have to purchase and wash actual fruit AND clean a machine.

Do you think I'm some kind of plebeian?  I want to consume and dispose, not sully my hands.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Chimpy on April 21, 2017, 11:36:47 AM
This is just the Keurig concept taken to its logical (and environmentally unfriendly) conclusion.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Samwise on April 21, 2017, 12:17:37 PM
(edit) The point of the machine, I imagine, is to lock you in to their propriety juice bag format so you don't switch to a cheaper competitor a few months from now.
Yeah, but why not a cheap machine -- you'd probably make similar money off a 150 dollar machine without internet crap ? You'd not really lose money if all your money is in the juice bag markups. You'd probably end up with more people buying the stupid things.

Like I said, they want to lock you in, right?  If you spend a thousand bucks on the juice machine, you need to keep buying their juice bags to bring the cost per use down.  Even if they raise the price of the juice bags, or if a competitor starts making similar bags that are a quarter of the price, you're stuck buying their bags because otherwise you spent a thousand bucks on a useless piece of shit.  If you only spent a hundred bucks on the machine, it's easy to throw it in the trash once you realize there are cheaper ways to get juice.

It's the Royal Nonesuch -- you perpetuate the con by taking advantage of the fact that nobody likes to acknowledge that they got conned.  Old tricks are the best tricks.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Sir T on April 21, 2017, 12:23:55 PM
I have to admit, the "you don't have to clean this thing" is the one attractive proposition. I had a juicer once and cleaning that thing was a nightmare.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: calapine on April 21, 2017, 12:24:46 PM
Like I said, they want to lock you in, right?  If you spend a thousand bucks on the juice machine, you need to keep buying their juice bags to bring the cost per use down.  Even if they raise the price of the juice bags, or if a competitor starts making similar bags that are a quarter of the price, you're stuck buying their bags because otherwise you spent a thousand bucks on a useless piece of shit.  If you only spent a hundred bucks on the machine, it's easy to throw it in the trash once you realize there are cheaper ways to get juice.

It's the Royal Nonesuch -- you perpetuate the con by taking advantage of the fact that nobody likes to acknowledge that they got conned.  Old tricks are the best tricks.

Two points to that Samwise:

A) But $5-8 for a single glass isn't in any way cheap. That alone should stop you buying that.

B) That doesn't explain why venture capitalists funded this startup with 120 fucking million dollars!  :ye_gods:



Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Morat20 on April 21, 2017, 12:45:48 PM
B) That doesn't explain why venture capitalists funded this startup with 120 fucking million dollars!  :ye_gods:
It was "smart". It was "internet enabled".

This guy probably only got funding by adding that shit, even though he'd be more profitable just marketing the damn bags. Slap a few "organic" and "free trade" and "cruelty free" shit on the side and sell them for 80% markups. Can't get tech money for that. Too mundane.

Damn, now I want a smoothie. I'll just go dump a bag full of frozen strawberries and blueberries into a vitamix. Which will result, in about 20 seconds, a delicious cold smoothie. (A little spinach is surprisingly good in there, for some reason. My wife likes to add banana, but people who like bananas are fucked in the head anyways). Sadly, I cannot command all this to happen from my smartphone while on the couch.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Merusk on April 21, 2017, 01:06:58 PM
Two points to that Samwise:

A) But $5-8 for a single glass isn't in any way cheap. That alone should stop you buying that.

B) That doesn't explain why venture capitalists funded this startup with 120 fucking million dollars!  :ye_gods:

a) A glass of OJ in Florida was nearly $4 for >8oz last weekend. If all you ever do is eat out this seems at-cost to you. <insert anecdote of client who had user manuals wrapped in plastic still in their high-end ovens 12 years later here>

b) See A. Just because you have money doesn't mean you're smart. The con artist just has to find the weakness in their knowledge and exploit it.

I have to admit, the "you don't have to clean this thing" is the one attractive proposition. I had a juicer once and cleaning that thing was a nightmare.

Did you try a power washer?


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: schild on April 21, 2017, 01:59:28 PM
fresh juice is expensive

cold-pressed veggie juice - good for you or not - tastes like shit and is even more expensive than fruit juice

objectively shit

everyone who drinks it likes things that taste like shit


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Tale on April 21, 2017, 02:38:27 PM
I have to admit, the "you don't have to clean this thing" is the one attractive proposition. I had a juicer once and cleaning that thing was a nightmare.

This thing isn't a juicer though. It's a "juice machine". Effectively it's a juice pourer.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: schild on April 21, 2017, 03:50:26 PM
it's not even that

it's like building a robot to squeeze a toothpaste tube efficiently

i want to get in touch with the investors that gave these assholes money


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Goumindong on April 21, 2017, 04:55:33 PM
The irony is that the bag idea, for folks who want to buy fresh juice is actually pretty good. You could use a really simple hand press (like a roll press built into the bag, or two blocks of wood... or your hands) to get the juice out and still do really well compared to a 400 dollar machine.

As noted. The only thing more stupid than buying the thing is investing in it.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Sir T on April 21, 2017, 05:36:34 PM
Did you try a power washer?

No, all I had was a tap. A power washer would probably have done the trick but I didn't think of it.  :geezer:


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Malakili on April 21, 2017, 06:55:13 PM
hah


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Sky on April 21, 2017, 09:38:54 PM
The two people who drink veggie juice in my office are the retard who thinks she's going to cure her tinnitus through diet and the moron who has decided he's a coeliac (husband and wife of course).

Their shit is aaaawful. It would be a building material in a 3rd world country.

I bet they would totally buy this, he loves gadgets and spending way to much for stupid things.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Zetor on April 21, 2017, 09:53:36 PM
B) That doesn't explain why venture capitalists funded this startup with 120 fucking million dollars!  :ye_gods:
The answer is simple: they were Ventrue capitalists.

As a VC privilege, they also get access to the "Special Strawberry" juice bags. I hear they're very... filling, and made of by the best people. :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Cyrrex on April 21, 2017, 10:44:00 PM
The only reason any of this works is because people are, for some reason, obsessed with juice.  What the fuck people?  Protip:  in most forms, juice isn't really good for you.  I would go out on a limb and say there are only rare or no exceptions where the juice from an object is better than just consuming the original object.   

Juice is like, I don't know...eating the skin on your chicken and throwing away the meat and pretending you are being healthy.  Somebody should make chicken skin juice.  Same general idea.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: calapine on April 21, 2017, 11:57:34 PM
Which is another reason this machine is dumb, the drinks don't contain any fruitmeat (don't know the English term... :grin:), so you lose all the fiber and lot's of vitamins.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Cyrrex on April 22, 2017, 02:17:43 AM
I like fruitmeat, so let's go with that. 

It also essentially concentrates the sugar content because you remove all the filler (and fiber), and thus consume far more of it.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Rendakor on April 22, 2017, 05:16:40 AM
B) That doesn't explain why venture capitalists funded this startup with 120 fucking million dollars!  :ye_gods:
The answer is simple: they were Ventrue capitalists.

As a VC privilege, they also get access to the "Special Strawberry" juice bags. I hear they're very... filling, and made of by the best people. :awesome_for_real:
I see what you did there. :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: calapine on April 22, 2017, 06:34:24 AM
I love all the Silcion Valley Markting Gobbledock these guys spew out.

The CEO:

Juicero’s mission is to make it dramatically easier and more enjoyable to consume more fresh, raw fruits and vegetables, and that’s a really tough nut to crack.

What I love about Juicero is that our team is attacking this issue in a way unlike anything I’ve ever seen.

So when I saw this week’s headlines about hacking and hand-squeezing Produce Packs, I had a one overriding thought: ”We know hacking consumer products is nothing new.
[Hand squeezing is hacking, alright!]

The value of Juicero is more than a glass of cold-pressed juice. Much more.


The founder, quotes form an interview:

Q: I like it. I have to say I'm surprised. I thought it was juice in a bag and you just squeeze it into your glass. For some reason I just thought that.

A: Yeah, you wouldn't need a $699 device to do that.

Q: Oh right, it's the pressure that you're paying for.

A: Yeah exactly. [höhö  :grin:]

I was on a treadmill. And I thought, "What can I do that can have the greatest impact on humanity, on human health?"
--
There are 400 custom parts in here. There's two motors, there's 10 printed circuit boards, there's a scanner, there's a microprocessor, there's a wireless chip, wireless antenna. There's 775 aircraft-grade aluminum. There's a gear box. There's latches that support 16,000 pounds of force. So this is basically a monster of a machine inside this veil of this nice aesthetic.
--
I think we're a company wanting to have an impact on human health and the planet and the environment. I don't think in terms of tech or food.
--
And I said, "I'm going to do what Steve did. I'm going to take the mainframe computer and create a personal computer, I'm going to take a mainframe juice press and I'm going to create a personal juice press,"
--

And here is a Youtube presentation by Doug Evans, the founder, music included. (https://youtu.be/dd05EMZOstk)


I really hate these kind of people with every fiber (see what I did there? :why_so_serious:) of my being.  :angryfist: :angryfist:



Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Morat20 on April 22, 2017, 09:03:58 AM
Which is another reason this machine is dumb, the drinks don't contain any fruitmeat (don't know the English term... :grin:), so you lose all the fiber and lot's of vitamins.
In orange juice, it's the "pulp". Maybe that's for all fruits, I don't know. Fruitmeat is a pretty awesome term though.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: rattran on April 22, 2017, 09:22:02 AM
"Flesh" is the normal English term. Fruitmeat is more specific portmanteau though, I like it.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: NowhereMan on April 22, 2017, 09:36:27 AM
I think technically it's only pulp after it's had all the juice squeezed out and been generally crushed. Flesh would be prior to that but generally we just call it fruit when we're eating it i.e. the edible parts don't really get referred to separately, the assumption is when you're eating an orange it's just the flesh so we have terms for the non-edible parts that do get used but no-one typically talks about the 'fruitmeat'.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Trippy on April 22, 2017, 12:27:35 PM
Juicero and its CEO deserve the scorn and ridicule heaped upon them. However there are some misconceptions what market this machine is targeting.

Some people when they hear the word "juicer" are thinking along the lines of an orange juicer like these things:

(http://i.imgur.com/sg0iQQY.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/40NVY9D.jpg)

This machine, however, is actually competing against things that can extract juice from vegetables like spinach, kale and carrots like these things:

(http://i.imgur.com/tt32w6C.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/lKMt6qp.jpg)

To put it another way this thing is making the equivalent of this:

(http://i.imgur.com/AYp7XSO.png)

not this:

(http://i.imgur.com/O0dipZf.png)

Those of you living in Trump-land may not realize that "juice" and "juicer" have different meanings now among those this machine is targeted towards. A relatively small but growing population of people are spending not-insignificant amounts money on these new-style of vegetable-focused juices helped along by various celebrity endorsements. LA, which is ground zero for this movement, has a crazy amount of juice bars especially around areas like West Hollywood which has like 20 of them within a 1 square mile area, and it's spread to other big cities and their surrounding areas.

My biggest issue with the Juicero is actually the price of the packs. Blueprint juices are ~$10 - $12 for 16 oz bottles in stores. Juicero packs are $5 - $8 dollars for <=8 oz of juice (Pomegranate is especially egregious at $8 for 3 oz) making them on average more expensive per ounce than Blueprint or other comparable juices.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: schild on April 22, 2017, 12:32:18 PM
Was someone here actually confused? I'm not reading every post.

Literally every city has a fuckload of juice bars in it.

They all serve the same thing.

Foul tasting horseshit.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: IainC on April 22, 2017, 12:45:07 PM
Do the Blueprint juices require a $400 machine that only works when it has a wifi connection to open the bottles for you?


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Chimpy on April 22, 2017, 12:52:11 PM
So this is a internet connected, less environmentally friendly take on the $200 things that Jack Lalane was hawking on infomercials 25 years ago.

Got it.



Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Soln on April 22, 2017, 01:02:20 PM
I need my Kale and Cocaine drink in the morning or I'm not really committed.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: calapine on April 22, 2017, 01:10:55 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/AYp7XSO.png)

Well, we have those too in bigger supermarkets. The juices are pressed by the staff and filled in bottles in the morning and put on an ice bench for the customer to take.

Although admittedly the ingredients are more pedestrian. For example 100% carrot juice (my favorite) or Bananas+Orange juice mixed.

Prices are € 1.99 for 0.5 liter or €4.49 for 1 liter. Around an hour before shop closing all the unsold juices of the day are discounted by 50%, which is the only time I buy them.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: NowhereMan on April 22, 2017, 01:28:51 PM
This machine exists for idiots who want one at home because they don't like cleaning their current juicer and idiots who want one in their office to impress other idiots who might be willing to invest in their tech company because they seem like they're successful.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Torinak on April 22, 2017, 02:00:54 PM
It'll be super-awesome when the $400 juicers become part of a botnet, and are then destroyed when a rival botnet operator points brickerbot (https://ics-cert.us-cert.gov/alerts/ICS-ALERT-17-102-01A) at them.

Just about every IoT device is some shit trying to find a problem to solve. They're easy to fund because there's just so much VC money floating around (due to concentration of wealth) that's desperate to find anything in which to speculate.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Trippy on April 22, 2017, 02:01:48 PM
Do the Blueprint juices require a $400 machine that only works when it has a wifi connection to open the bottles for you?
I know people like making fun of the Internet-requirement of the device but given that the contents of the bag are unpasteurized and extremely perishable it makes sense to have some safety mechanisms in place. Without the Internet connection the expiration check is too easy to bypass manually (just set the device's clock back) and you lose the recalled product lock out ability. Larger-scale produced speciality juices like Blueprint are safer cause those are either High Pressure Pasteurized or Flash Pasteurized and don't need Internet-connected bottle openers to monitor their safety.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: IainC on April 22, 2017, 02:15:21 PM
The expiry date is also printed on the packs. Are you really trying to make the argument that bypassing the effort of reading a label is worth the overhead of a required wi-fi connection?


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Trippy on April 22, 2017, 02:31:53 PM
I don't think the target market for this machine really cares the device needs to be on the Internet all the time.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: schild on April 22, 2017, 02:42:39 PM
for $120M i'll cater to any miniscule market of yuppy assholes

who needs an exact, automatic, 3 square peel of toilet paper every time?

we can build that


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: IainC on April 22, 2017, 02:44:19 PM
I don't think the target market for this machine really cares the device needs to be on the Internet all the time.

Actually, a lot of them are. I can't find the article now but the Venn diagram overlap of people dumb enough to buy a bag squeezer and people who don't understand the difference between ionising and non-ionising radiation is significant. There have been several calls for the wi-fi to be optional.

for $120M i'll cater to any miniscule market of yuppy assholes

who needs an exact, automatic, 3 square peel of toilet paper every time?

we can build that


Shittr


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 22, 2017, 04:07:01 PM
Don't forget the social media integration. It needs to anounce your bowl movements on Instagram.

--Dave


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Morat20 on April 22, 2017, 04:44:31 PM
The expiry date is also printed on the packs. Are you really trying to make the argument that bypassing the effort of reading a label is worth the overhead of a required wi-fi connection?
Place barcode on bag that lists expiration date. Scan barcode. There's 100 dollar savings.

If user sets his fucking clock back a month, user is liable for his own stupid food poisoning for being a stupid fuck.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Trippy on April 22, 2017, 04:44:42 PM
for $120M i'll cater to any miniscule market of yuppy assholes
Which begs the question how they managed to get so much money in the first place when the entire cold-pressed juice market here in the US is likely less than $200 million in size*. The wider juice space is a multi-billion dollar market but given that this machine can't make competitively priced basic juices like orange or apple juice I can't see how the VC's thought they were going to get a 10x return on their investment.

* $100 million in 2015 is the best estimate I've seen so far: http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-juice-20150131-story.html


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Chimpy on April 22, 2017, 04:59:45 PM
VC money is easily manipulated by hucksters. Just like voters.

See Theranos for an even more colossal fuckup.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Morat20 on April 22, 2017, 06:30:48 PM
VC money is easily manipulated by hucksters. Just like voters.

See Theranos for an even more colossal fuckup.
There's that damn stupid solar roadway thing, for instance. WTF? We're gonna drive on solar panels? Good fucking luck, magic materials science that creates roadway surface as tough, rugged, waterproof as the usual multi-layer shit AND clear as fucking glass.

All that money, pissed away. Whereas you could just take regular solar panels, the shit that's getting cheaper than dirt, and stick them on a roof on top of parking structures and lots in every city, mall, business park and strip center south of, say, Denver and make a steady profit for the next 25 years selling power to the businesses nearby or back to the grid. While commuter feel both virtuous for helping contribute to green energy, their cars get to park in the shade, and they don't get wet when it fucking rains.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Trippy on April 22, 2017, 06:41:33 PM
VC money is easily manipulated by hucksters. Just like voters.

See Theranos for an even more colossal fuckup.
The market Theranos was claiming to address, before it turned out they are frauds, though, is humongous -- as in tens of billions of dollars in size.

E.g. let's say the blood testing market is $50 billion and Theranos's funding is $700 million. At a P/E ratio of 50 and a profit of margin of 30%, Theranos would only need revenue numbers of $467 million in a year or ~1% of the blood testing market to hit a $7 billion valuation on the public market or a 10x return to investors.

For Juicero let's grant them a future P/E ratio of 30 and a profit margin of 15%. That would require revenue of $267 million in a year, which is larger than the entire market currently, to hit $1.2 billion in valuation and a 10x return.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Chimpy on April 22, 2017, 07:27:22 PM
I wasn't saying that the markets were similar, just that VC people are easily swayed by charismatic presentations full of buzzwords like "cloud", "disruptive", "groundbreaking", and "innovative".



Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Khaldun on April 22, 2017, 07:35:34 PM
I am 100% not confused about what the Juicero assholes are selling to. First off, they're just Theranos in a glass, as has been pointed out: grifters who know that venture capitalist are fucking DESPERATE to score big with another unicorn and so are primed to fall for anything. Second, yeah, I understand that a "juicer" is not a thing you manually make orange juice with. My brother had a higher end Breville juicer; I make stuff sometimes along these lines with my blender. It is not a huge hassle or difficulty. This is the result of dumb venture capitalists meeting grifters who said, "It's like a Keurig for juice" and the dumb venture capitalists said, "OH YES PLEASE HERE IS MONEY".


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Cyrrex on April 22, 2017, 10:08:39 PM
Haha, a blender.  It's like you're some kind of cave person!


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: jgsugden on April 22, 2017, 10:14:26 PM
The real value in this is the customer list. A list of people dumb and rich enough to get this cap is digital gold.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: schild on April 23, 2017, 08:44:44 AM
for $120M i'll cater to any miniscule market of yuppy assholes
Which begs the question how they managed to get so much money in the first place when the entire cold-pressed juice market here in the US is likely less than $200 million in size*. The wider juice space is a multi-billion dollar market but given that this machine can't make competitively priced basic juices like orange or apple juice I can't see how the VC's thought they were going to get a 10x return on their investment.

* $100 million in 2015 is the best estimate I've seen so far: http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-juice-20150131-story.html

Eh. I would almost bet the Austin market alone for this foul-tasting horseshit is over $100M.

LA is surely way over that.

Fucking whole foods has 10 brands of fresh-pressed juice here.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: NowhereMan on April 23, 2017, 08:57:04 AM
But really with that market you're not looking so much at people who buy juice from Whole Foods, you're looking at people that are buying home juicers already or convincing VCs that the people who are buying juice from the shops but haven't bought one for home yet is due to not wanting to deal with clean up or concern over food safety. I could see people believing the former but the latter is clearly bullshit.

You are then selling a $400 device as the entry point so you can probably count out anyone that has gone for a noticeably cheaper juicer (admittedly I don't know the current price point) so you are looking at a potential market upselling people that have a juicer and possibly getting a percentage of the store bough juice market with the offer of convenience.

I'm guessing that they're selling on a business plan of getting the main unit price down to $250 or so with a projection in capturing a significantly larger market share than current juicers enjoy and simultaneously cannibalising much of the existing juicer market. I can imagine they base a lot of their projections on the success of Nespresso, working with their numbers and ignoring the starting point difference in the number of coffee drinkers versus juice drinkers.

That said I can imagine them making a relatively successful business out of this but nothing to justify the amount invested into it.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 23, 2017, 09:01:03 AM
But they're *disrupting* the juice market. Don't you understand how disruption works?

Yeah, neither does Silicon Valley.

--Dave


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Morat20 on April 23, 2017, 10:09:30 AM
But they're *disrupting* the juice market. Don't you understand how disruption works?

Yeah, neither does Silicon Valley.

--Dave
Isn't it a buzzword for "Sneak up and take over the market so we can be the new kings?"

It's new millennium, we need new words for old ideas like "Let's knock off the king of that market segment and take over the role ourselves!". Without the buzzwords, people might ask uncomfortable questions like "How" before giving you money.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: HaemishM on April 23, 2017, 11:43:47 AM
Fucking whole foods has 10 brands of fresh-pressed juice here.

And they are all fucking awful. My wife continues to try out those shitty juices in the hopes that one of them does not taste like licking the lawn. No winners so far.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Teleku on April 23, 2017, 01:26:32 PM
But they're *disrupting* the juice market. Don't you understand how disruption works?

Yeah, neither does Silicon Valley.

--Dave
Isn't it a buzzword for "Sneak up and take over the market so we can be the new kings?"

It's new millennium, we need new words for old ideas like "Let's knock off the king of that market segment and take over the role ourselves!". Without the buzzwords, people might ask uncomfortable questions like "How" before giving you money.
What was the old word for that?


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Tale on April 23, 2017, 03:15:32 PM
Fucking whole foods has 10 brands of fresh-pressed juice here.

And they are all fucking awful. My wife continues to try out those shitty juices in the hopes that one of them does not taste like licking the lawn. No winners so far.

It's like my Dad said about fish oil supplements: "I'd rather just eat the fish."

As a bachelor I drank those shitty juices, expecting them to do me good. I kept getting sick. Nowadays my wife insists we eat the fruits and vegetables typically listed on the juice labels. I grumble a bit and eat junk food when she's away, but I don't get sick.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Morat20 on April 23, 2017, 06:22:48 PM
But they're *disrupting* the juice market. Don't you understand how disruption works?

Yeah, neither does Silicon Valley.

--Dave
Isn't it a buzzword for "Sneak up and take over the market so we can be the new kings?"

It's new millennium, we need new words for old ideas like "Let's knock off the king of that market segment and take over the role ourselves!". Without the buzzwords, people might ask uncomfortable questions like "How" before giving you money.
What was the old word for that?
"Business goals".


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Sky on April 24, 2017, 08:13:10 AM
Just about every IoT device is some shit trying to find a problem to solve.
And then there's me, who buys as many point-to-point wired appliances as possible. Not because I'm some techphobe, but because I'd rather pop the chassis and solder a connection or replace a capacitor than have to buy a $400 circuit board for a $450 washing machine. Although it's almost impossible to find a decent non-IC-based appliance now  :geezer:


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: 01101010 on April 24, 2017, 09:26:19 AM
Just about every IoT device is some shit trying to find a problem to solve.
And then there's me, who buys as many point-to-point wired appliances as possible. Not because I'm some techphobe, but because I'd rather pop the chassis and solder a connection or replace a capacitor than have to buy a $400 circuit board for a $450 washing machine. Although it's almost impossible to find a decent non-IC-based appliance now  :geezer:

No shit man... how those boards are still more than the cost of a new appliance is pretty telling on how they want you to behave. Going to be a point where replacement > fixing in just about everything.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Khaldun on April 24, 2017, 10:03:10 AM
This is going to be a seriously annoying part of the postapocalypse, by the way.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Sky on April 24, 2017, 11:25:39 AM
Well, when the company that installed the lighting system was bought out and the new company didn't support the old company's gear, and the new stuff we bought from 3M last year was immediately made end-of-life when Bibliotheca bought out 3M....I'm about fuck technology anyway.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Merusk on April 24, 2017, 11:48:15 AM
This is going to be a seriously annoying part of the postapocalypse, by the way.


Why do you think everyone in Fallout REALLY uses pre-'70's tech? Now you know.

Well, when the company that installed the lighting system was bought out and the new company didn't support the old company's gear, and the new stuff we bought from 3M last year was immediately made end-of-life when Bibliotheca bought out 3M....I'm about fuck technology anyway.

That's what keeps me from ever considering a smart device on my home.  The central hub and Smart Lock debacles I've read about are enough that I'm good with keeping on the "primitive" devices for a good long while.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Sir T on April 24, 2017, 12:17:43 PM
My microwave and Washing machine have these turn switches rather than a Programmable keybloard. Its funny the way that people who understand tech kinda are suspicious of this stuff.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Merusk on April 24, 2017, 12:30:26 PM
To be clear, it's not the tech I don't trust. It's corporate practices, enforced obsolescence, a lack of right to repair, and drop of all support and parts availability should a company go under/ be bought out.

You simply don't have those problems in mechanical devices, or things with standardized or non-DMCA'd parts.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Trippy on April 24, 2017, 03:22:09 PM
Juicero teardown and hardware analysis:

https://blog.bolt.io/heres-why-juicero-s-press-is-so-expensive-6add74594e50


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Yegolev on April 25, 2017, 07:22:40 AM
I'm really into how schild no longer uses the Shift key.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: IainC on April 25, 2017, 08:06:19 AM
I'm really into how schild no longer uses the Shift key.
He's living in a post-capitalist utopia.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Yegolev on April 25, 2017, 08:33:27 AM
Amazing.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Tale on April 25, 2017, 04:07:59 PM
Juicero teardown and hardware analysis:

https://blog.bolt.io/heres-why-juicero-s-press-is-so-expensive-6add74594e50


Awesome. Thanks. I keep staring at the final image of the broken down machine parts.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: IainC on April 26, 2017, 05:56:01 AM
This is what you get when a guy who has a ten thousand dollar bicycle wonders why his kitchen equipment isn't made the same way. I like analogue cameras so I'm definitely a sucker for beautifully engineered shit but this is ridiculous overkill. The engineering in this case is compensating for a fundamental design flaw, not working in support of the thing's function.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: schild on April 26, 2017, 09:11:08 AM
I'm really into how schild no longer uses the Shift key.
He's living in a post-capitalist utopia.
I generally only skip the shift key when I'm doing 10 other things at once but want to respond. Weirdly when I post from mobile, I try to use the shift key. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Mandella on April 26, 2017, 10:16:38 AM
The more I read about this thing, the more I think that the internet connection is a good, and even necessary feature.

Consider: The company is bagging up crushed organic produce with no pasteurization or preservatives and mailing them around the country. Each one of these bags is potentially a ticking timebomb of Listeria, Salmonella and E. Coli. I'd honestly be nervous about the eight day limit, and would love the capability to shut down the use of an entire product run at the first hint of a contaminated product.

Apparently some of the investors thought the machine would actually be fed whole (if pre-packaged) produce, which would be a completely different thing. As it is, the fact that the ingredients are pre-pulped kinda removes pretty much all of the perceived health-nut value of the whole thing...


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: slog on April 26, 2017, 11:37:05 AM
The more I read about this thing, the more I think that the internet connection is a good, and even necessary feature.

Consider: The company is bagging up crushed organic produce with no pasteurization or preservatives and mailing them around the country. Each one of these bags is potentially a ticking timebomb of Listeria, Salmonella and E. Coli. I'd honestly be nervous about the eight day limit, and would love the capability to shut down the use of an entire product run at the first hint of a contaminated product.

Apparently some of the investors thought the machine would actually be fed whole (if pre-packaged) produce, which would be a completely different thing. As it is, the fact that the ingredients are pre-pulped kinda removes pretty much all of the perceived health-nut value of the whole thing...

I think if they just made a robot that crushes fruit you buy a the grocery store it would have worked better.  Bonus if it can sweep like a roomba thing


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Trippy on April 26, 2017, 12:14:11 PM
Apparently some of the investors thought the machine would actually be fed whole (if pre-packaged) produce, which would be a completely different thing.
Yeah and those aren't cheap (http://www.norwalkjuicers.com/store/). But that also defeats the whole "razor blade" model of how they would make their money so I'm not sure why any investors would think people would be able to use their own ingredients in that thing.

Quote
As it is, the fact that the ingredients are pre-pulped kinda removes pretty much all of the perceived health-nut value of the whole thing...
I don't think so. Assuming they do a good job of cutting and grinding the ingredients the end product is the same as what a "self-contained" cold-press juicer can produce.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Trippy on April 26, 2017, 12:19:02 PM
I think if they just made a robot that crushes fruit you buy a the grocery store it would have worked better.  Bonus if it can sweep like a roomba thing
That's an extremely crowded space (e.g. go to Amazon.com and search for "juicer"). The total market size is large for these appliances (~2 billion in the US) but it's unlikely anybody is making much money given the competition and things would be especially difficult for Juicero at their price point (the most popular juicers are <$200).

It does make more business sense, on paper, to go with the coffee pod model, but unfortunately for Juicero they somehow ended up with an end product that's more expensive than you can buy in stores.


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Mandella on April 26, 2017, 01:02:29 PM

Quote
As it is, the fact that the ingredients are pre-pulped kinda removes pretty much all of the perceived health-nut value of the whole thing...
I don't think so. Assuming they do a good job of cutting and grinding the ingredients the end product is the same as what a "self-contained" cold-press juicer can produce.


What I was going for was more recognition that whole veggies in the produce section are usually still alive. They have an active metabolism that is to some degree combating bacteria and decay. They can safely be stored for days at home, although you should still wash them before use. But once you crush and pulp them they start on that inevitable process of putrification, unless they are artificially guarded from it. These things are apparently air-sealed, but that's about it. If there is any contaminate inside it's game over in a lot less than eight days.

You're right though, "health-nut" is certainly the wrong word to describe someone concerned about actual food safety...


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: calapine on April 26, 2017, 04:40:57 PM
I am still not over the decadence of that thing.

Apparently"juice subscriptions" _start_ at $35 per week.

If you are a two person household that are 280 Dollar per month for juice.

Edit: Haha

(http://i.imgur.com/fNux3S5.jpg)


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: MahrinSkel on April 26, 2017, 07:14:22 PM
The going rate for fresh squeezed juice in Silicon Valley appears to be $10 for a 16 ounce glass.  Silicon Valley (and the bay area in general) is economically deranged.

--Dave


Title: Re: $400 WiFi-enabled 4-ton-force juicer's $120 million fail
Post by: Tale on April 26, 2017, 07:26:50 PM
I am still not over the decadence of that thing.

Apparently"juice subscriptions" _start_ at $35 per week.

If you are a two person household that are 280 Dollar per month for juice.

Fruit-as-a-service.

Or you can just buy fruit.