f13.net

Daredevil miniseries headed to Netflix, to be followed by Jessica Jones, then Power Man & Iron first, and finally a Defenders series featuring those 4 characters.  

http://tvline.com/2013/11/07/netflix-marvel-tv-series-jessica-jones-daredevil-luke-cage-iron-fist/#more-471950 (http://tvline.com/2013/11/07/netflix-marvel-tv-series-jessica-jones-daredevil-luke-cage-iron-fist/#more-471950)

I'm betting we'll see all four of those characters on S.H.I.E.L.D. before their Netflix premiere...

I've always though, of all the Marvel guys, that Daredevil would translate to TV best.  Kinda Suits Meets Arrow.


(Why, yes, I do hate Arrow, but you get my meaning...)

"Daredevil" - Didn't care much.

"Netflix miniseries" - Now I'm interested...

Daredevil is my favorite Marvel character ever. Thanks mostly to Frank Miller's fantastic two runs on the series. I greeted this announcement with joy. I just hope they don't fuck it up, because other than Jessica Jones, I really dig all the characters they are talking about.

It looks to me like they're doing Avengers 2.0, this time with characters that do not require the level of special effects that are impossible on a TV budget.  4 characters get their own separate treatment and then you pull them together (perhaps with more characters?) to form a team.  I would not be surprised to see Moon Knight join the Defenders in the final miniseries given some of the things we've heard and some of the things in the comics over the past decade.

I expect we'll hear plans for Moon Knight, Punisher, Blade, and a variety of other characters in the next 3 or 4 years... and it sounds like Netflix plans to be heavily involved with Disney/Marvel.  In fact, I'm betting the House of Mouse buys Netflix by the end of next year.

There's actually been a curious influx of disney movies on netflix lately.

They took away my James bond though, they are dead to me.

Disney and Netflix made a huge deal.  Anything Marvel, Staw Wars, Disney, etc... is going to route through Netflix for digitial release for streaming for the next few years - and I expect that Disney will buy Netflix before too long to lock it up.

Makes a lot sense since Disney doesn't have a cable company.

Yet.  The Mouse will own everything by 2024.

Yes the do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_Disney#Disney_Media_Networks

Unless you mean something on the level of Time Warner or Comcast or something.

Ya, I meant dudes who control physical distribution of cable.

I can't see Disney ever having one of those, and they're smart for it.

Makes sense for Netflix given that MGM, WB, and Universal all pulled their stuff off Netflix earlier in the year.

There were rumors about Marvel looking for an up-front commitment to a run. Makes sense.

Netflix has the same problem places like CDNow used to have - they sell only commodity products. Their advantage is purely first mover advantage. Having original content gives them an advantage with a higher barrier against competition.

I wonder if they're going to insist on all episodes being available at once. I'm not sure that model works - nobody discusses the show content since everyone watches at their own pace.

Aren't these the shows the major networks balked on so Netflix picked them up?  I'm excited to have these series come out, but were any of these guys actually Defenders?  I remember Hulk, Dr. Strange etc.  Don't give a flip about DD or JJ but Sweet Christmas I'm excited for Power Man and Iron Fist.

Luke Cage was a member, I think Daredevil kinda was, and Iron Fist was part of a Defenders team recently.

As I understand it: No.  They did not go to ABC, CBS, Fox, etc...  They instead went to Netflix, FXX, AMC, and other networks that are more open to less traditional methods of storytelling on TV.  The major networks are only just now experimtenting with the '10 episodes and we're done' idea after decades of turning away from mini-series events.
The Defenders have had a variety of lineups, with nearly every B or lower tier member of the Marvel universe having their shot at a membership card.  Many of them are characters that Marvel does not have the rights to use right now: Wolverine, Beast, Silver Surfer, Colossus, Spider-man, Ghost Rider (unless those rights have reverted), etc...

One potential thing to watch: Many of the Defenders lineups were assembled by Doctor Strange.  If things go out at the pace I'd expect, we could see The individual mini-series released over a few years and then see Dr. Strange hit the big screen right around the time we'd expect to see the Defenders come together...  Likely just coincidence, but I could see Dr. Strange pulling these characters together in the first episode of the Defenders.

The old Defenders book was a pointedly weird "non-team" book--basically guys who hung out together for various reasons and for various lengths of time and got involved in stuff generally rather by accident. Bendis' New Avengers was sort of a Defenders call-back.

I think this new one has to be seen as the "street" level heroes who don't fight huge menaces but get together to deal with the bigger versions of small-fry stuff.

I am curious about how they'll handle Jessica Jones in that it doesn't make sense to introduce her as an originally-spandex hero who had some bad experiences and decided to be as non-super a private eye as she could be.

They can do that story - they just reveal she is one of these S.H.I.E.L.D. Index people that was quietly doing good (for S.H.I.E.L.D.?) and lost her abilities. 

I'm thinking Jessica Jones is more fun though if she's still supered up, just very low-profile as she was in Alias.

Probably.  They may give us both with a switch in the middle.

Daredevil seems to have a writer: Drew Goddard: http://www.thewrap.com/netflix-disney-marvel-daredevil-drew-goddard (http://www.thewrap.com/netflix-disney-marvel-daredevil-drew-goddard)

Jessica Jones, too: http://www.deadline.com/2013/11/melissa-rosenberg-to-shepherd-marvels-jessica-jones-series-for-netflix/ (http://www.deadline.com/2013/11/melissa-rosenberg-to-shepherd-marvels-jessica-jones-series-for-netflix/)

I'm interested in seeing a female TV writer take on a super heroine.  Or whatever JJ will wind up being.

Not sure how I feel about Goddard. I'm kind of tired of the Abrams / Whedon / Lost / Orci & Kurtzman & Lindelof stink wafting off of everything. Does everything need to be written or directed by the same 10 people?

I don't know a lot about Goddard specifically but I see that same tired list of previous projects and collaborators and my eyes glaze over.

Solution: Stop watching.  :-)

A number of us like the quality of work he produces.  I think he could give us a very interesting take on DD.

Sure it would be great if they could get David Simon or Vince Gilligan to do a Daredevil or Luke Cage series, but I wouldn't expect to see either of them being eager to write other peoples' characters. The Mutant Enemy/Bad Robot people tend to be fairly into nerd culture, so it's not surprising to see them involved in Marvel/Star Wars/Star Trek.

Well for example Thor 2 was directed by Alan Taylor. The guy has worked on some genre stuff but from a different lineage than Abrams / Whedon / Lost. I think Ang Lee's Hulk was a very good movie trapped inside a mediocre movie's body.

I'm not sure that every property is best served by having a super fan write or direct it. You want to avoid something like Abrams working on Star Trek even though he actively dislikes it, but I don't see a problem with someone who isn't already really invested working on it. I mean, Kevin Smith loves super heroes but his writing on Batman is generally regarded as some of the worst ever. Jon Favreau was largely known as an indie actor / director before he did Iron Man, not a genre guy.

I don't see being into nerd culture as any sort of requirement for doing a good job. I don't think "nerd culture" is even a real thing other than marketing crap.

I don't think it's a requirement, and like you I don't think it necessarily makes for a better end product either. I just think it's easier to get those guys to agree to do the projects, particularly for the TV series stuff where it's a potentially longer term project. They've actually gotten a decent variety of people to work on the Marvel movies. I guess I just don't see a lot of the bigger names in TV right now "slumming it" by doing a comic book show for Disney and Netflix.

On that point I have no idea. A Marvel / Netflix joint that has a commitment to a full run of first season episodes sounds pretty good, I can't imagine many people turning it down unless they have something awesome already lined up. On the Q&A podcast they often cover genre writer panels at conventions and such and a lot of those guys would kill for a full-time gig - I mean you have people writing for stuff like the new Charlie's Angels...I think for most writers working on a Marvel / Netflix thing would be the opposite of slumming, but I suppose for the absolute top tier maybe not.

Also it's worth pointing out that a TV series isn't going to have just one writer, so the way this rumor is being reported is a little weird. Maybe he's going to be a writer or the head writer, but he's not going to be the writer.

Any showrunning is an amazing opportunity.  There are incredibly few that can turn down an opportunity because they're better off waiting for something better.  Goddard and Rosenberg had to see these as no brainer opportunities. 

My big question is: What would success mean for the future of these characters?  Are these actually limited to just mini-series, or if Daredevil is awesome, will we possibly get a 2nd season?  Or a movie? 

My biggest problem with the MCU is the slow pace.  In comics, you get between 3 (3 four comic storylines) and 30 stories (for characters like Spidey with multiple books) a year.  In the MCU (including Avengers), we expect to get 6 Iron Man stories in 11 years, 6 or 7 Thor and Captain America stories in 8 years, and a few more characters that get a few feature appearances like Hulk (3+) Black Widow (3+), War Machine (2?), Hawkeye (2?), Falcon (2?), Scarlet Witch (2?), Quicksilver (2?), Nick Fury (3?), GotG (2?), Ant-man (2?), Wasp (1?), etc... 

When you factor in the difference of the rate of the aging of the comic characters to the rate the actors age, you're getting up to 1/150th of the stories out of a character at a given age...

It is, unless you're already in a position to create shows using your own concepts, which is why I mentioned Vince Gilligan (Breaking Bad) and David Simon (the Wire, Treme). Those are the kinds of names that I think carry enough weight to get me interested in a series. Creating a TV series is such an inconsistent art (due to the writing team as a whole, involvement from the higher ups, the number of episodes per season, etc...) that it seems almost impossible for one writer or showrunner to consistently make good shows, Whedon being a prime example of that right now.

Point being, to me there isn't really showrunner they're going to announce for any of these new shows that's likely to increase my interest because only the really top tier guys consistently make good product and I don't think those are the guys that are going to be interested in doing these shows.

These movies are to film in NY, apparently.  Interesting, given that Daredevil / Murdock just moved to San Francisco in the comics.

http://www.thewrap.com/disney-film-marvel-netflix-series-nyc-gov-cuomo-bob-iger-announce/ (http://www.thewrap.com/disney-film-marvel-netflix-series-nyc-gov-cuomo-bob-iger-announce/)

They say a 'minimum' of 60 hours, but I see a minimum of 56 listed - although I hope they give some of these characters multiple 13 episode runs...

Casting: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3322312/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3322312/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2)

Daredevil: Charlie Cox http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1214435/?ref_=tt_cl_t1 (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1214435/?ref_=tt_cl_t1)

Kingpin: Vincent D'Onofrio http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000352/ (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000352/)

I approve of both those choices.

I'll be watching purely because of Pyle.

That's excellent casting.

I don't get it.

hah Can't wait to tell my sister that Thor is playing Kingpin (Before Law and Order we'd refer to him as "Thor" from Adventures in Babysitting.) :awesome_for_real:

More casting: http://www.fandompost.com/2014/06/20/rosario-dawson-boards-daredevil-netflix-series/ (http://www.fandompost.com/2014/06/20/rosario-dawson-boards-daredevil-netflix-series/)

She might be Elektra.  In the comics, IIRC, Murdock (before being Daredevil) gets her father killed during a kidnapping attempt.  That could play into what they're saying about her role. 

More casting... Deborah Ann Woll (True Blood's red headed vampire Jessica) is Karen Page, Daredevil's Secretary.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/07/17/true-blood-actress-to-star-in-marvels-daredevil/ (http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/07/17/true-blood-actress-to-star-in-marvels-daredevil/)

I wish there had been some acting in True Blood so I might know if she'd be any good...

She's not.

But goddamn she IS hot.

Indeed.

To be fair, there is no way we could ever know if she can act or not based on the writing for True Blood.

Also, Indeed.

True Blood has writing?

Sure it does.  Three whole words in every script.

Blood.  Tits.  Ass.

You forgot "SOOKEH!"

She is one of the better actors on that show which is akin to being one of the better ballerinas in all of Ohio.

I was hoping that when I read "red head" and "True Blood" it was going to be the vampire queen.+

Lots of comic con stuff coming out and holy fuck does it look promising.

http://marvel.com/news/tv/23448/your_official_first_look_at_charlie_cox_in_marvels_daredevil_on_netflix

Of note, Rosario Dawson to play Night Nurse.  The black costume is his "first" they said and looking to be brutal as evidenced by blood stained hand in poster.

http://marvel.com/news/tv/23447/nycc_2014_marvels_daredevil_comes_to_illustrated_life_in_new_concept_art

Daredevil ought to be brutal if they are taking the right approach. Even the Mark Waid stuff that's going on in the comics now doesn't pull punches.

April 10 release date.  I'm loving everything I've heard about it so far - and I already have that day off work and no plans.  Assuming they release all 13 episodes at once, I'm doing a marathon.

I could have sworn I heard that this was going to be one of the first "week to week" releases by Netflix.

I have not heard that and most of the articles say something like, "assuming the full 13 episodes are released at once..."  If you do come across some evidence that it will release slowly, please let me know...

That should also be around the time of the Game of Thrones premiere for Season 5, which usually means a marathon game day / prior season rewatch at my place.  I could be watching 24 hours of TV in 3 days...

Everything I've read makes it sound like the episodes will all go up at once. In fact they said at one point that knowing that they weren't doing a weekly show allowed them to structure the writing differently from how they would have done things if they were doing a normal weekly TV series.

15 second Teaser (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ3yXDFvybA). Full trailer is coming tomorrow. Also says in the description that all episodes will be available on the April 10th release.

Everybody is sick of this teaser for the teaser bullshit. We need to stop tweeting, facebooking, and forum posting them or the public relations people are just going to keep releasing more.

It will be interesting to see how Marvel fares on the small screen without A List talent and scripts.

And none of our lives will be negatively impacted in any sort of way so I'm not sure what the problem is. Yeah, the teaser footage is usually pretty pointless, but as a way of letting people know in advance that they have a trailer coming out tomorrow I don't find it somehow offensive.

Wait until we get the sneak preview of the 15 second teaser for the first trailer for the adaption of the comic book tie-in prequel to the series....

Full trailer (I think):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC7GPdBV9WQ

First episode was excellent.  Damn you sleep!  I totally want to binge watch.   :awesome_for_real:

I only saw half of the first episode before the wife fell asleep. When they mentioned

This is way better than I thought it was going to be.

I agree, though I have never been a fan of Daredevil I'm liking the first couple of episodes I have watched a lot.

I'm sorta binge watching right now (waiting on ep 07 to dl, don't judge me  :why_so_serious:). I love this show.

Halfway through and holy fuck it's good.

I like how they've toned down the comic book excesses of the character and made him into a low-rent Batman without the toys. Without the over-the-top supernatural abilities, he comes across as a man of dedication and character in both his daily life and behind the mask. There's a few great stunts and camerawork...


...but it looks like most of the money went into hiring capable actors, directors and writers.

If I have a complaint - if - it's that Fisk comes across more insecure than I'd like. Tempering his hubris gives the character some emotional weight, but it dulls the unstoppable threat he represents in the comics.

Finished this, it's solid all the way through, another hit.

It's showing a new side to the Marvel Universe that isn't seen in the movies nor SHIELD.

They also end it with enough questions to have a second season if they want it, but not so many questions that you don't have closure if this is it.


Some of the situations DD escapes are a weeee bit of a stretch at times, but they counter balance it with the fact he is getting torn the fuck up constantly, so you still get a sense that if he is just a tiny bit slower or a little bit unlucky, he is dead.

All the supporting characters are excellent, I have no complaints with any of the casting or acting here.


On the ending:

10 episodes in and this is definitely some of the best TV I've had the pleasure to binge on in a long, long time. Superb cast, down and dirty fight choreography that feels real and punishing (and oh gods brutal), huge swathes of pathos with none of the tedious melodrama exhibited by other Supers shows (oh hai Arrow/Flash), and a fully fleshed out, shades of grey villain brilliantly portrayed by D'Onofrio. I hate that I only have 3 episodes left to watch, and yet I've already sat through more of this than there have been Iron Man movies in terms of time. I need this to be a hit - Marvel should have been doing street-level TV long before now.

About half way through binge watching this with a friend who's a huge daredevil fan (I know jack and shot about the character other than he's blind).  Really good so far, I'm certainly enjoying it.  Nice to see Marvel actually sign off on a gritty, violent, adult only show.  Seriously, this is not for children. 

It gives me hope we might actually see a punisher series some day.

Dear Marvel Agents of SHIELD:

This is how you TV.

Signed,
Daredevil

I wouldn't want SHIELD to be like Daredevil; SHIELD is decent all-ages fare with a lot of heart and heavy on the banter instead of compound fractures. I just want some more of this new Daredevil flavour.
Makes me wonder how adult oriented they're looking at making AKA Jessica Jones and the subsequent Luke Cage/Iron Fist stuff. We've not really seen any actual Supers throw down outside of the movies, yet. Obviously there are budget constraints there, but if Sony are making Powers work (I haven't seen any yet, though I'm a big fan of the source material) Marvel are definitely going to want in on that action, TV wise.

My only real quibbles are that Fisk just ran away with the show about half way through. He completely eclipses Daredevil. The other bit is that DD loses a serious step in the fight department at the same time. He "wins" by the magic of "a Murdoch always gets up."

One of the most pleasant surprises is how much they give to their supporting cast and how much they get out of them. I was really surprised how much I liked Leland. That guy is always that sort of character but he did interesting things with it for him.

Eh...the guy IS super powered,that ain't magic. I've only watched the first three episodes but they have already done a good job establishing that he isn't just a tough blind guy.

I'd be totally happy with a 2nd season of Wilson Fisk, troubled boy.

People complained about Fisk online but I think a lot of people fail to realize the entire first season was simply the origin story for daredevil AND kingpin.

Okay, you bastards, you talked me into it. But if this sucks, I'm coming after all of you.

--Dave

I'm surprised at how much I care about Wilson farking Fisk.  They have a good cast all around and good scripts.  Foggy's getting all the best lines.

Edited because I should have used spoiler on that.

Just rewatched the big fight scene at the end of episode 2. That is really a classic scene--very much vaults into the pantheon of top 20-30 fight scenes ever, maybe.

I wish they would not have done it in a hall. The exhaustion he portrays is great. But all I could think was this is really a great tribute to Oldboy.

 :oh_i_see:

I've only watched the first episode so far. Daredevil is hands down, my favorite comic character since the Frank Miller days. The first episode was a great start. I really, really dig their fight coordinator's work. The right mix of acrobatics, fine martial arts and just brutal MMA-street level-win-at-all-costs savagery. If it gets better from there, I'm in for a treat.

It does.  If you liked the fight choreography that much episode 2 is going to be a treat.

Three episodes in (stupid vacation kept me away until Sunday night) and very pleased so far... that fight scene at the end of episode 2 is amazing.  I almost called in sick just so that I could watch the rest.

Really enjoying it so far, though the constant teasing towards things like the various makeshift throwing weapons he keeps finding is a little annoying. Loving that they've made Kingpin in to an actual interesting character with some personality.

I'm about half way through and they totally pulled one over on me on how things went, was a pleasant surprise that I didn't see it coming. .  I'm having to really force myself not to binge watch this.

Even though it sounds stupid now that I type it, I have limited myself to one episode per week so that I don't feel cheated because I blasted through it and then have to wait even longer for more.

It's nice that Netflix provides that option.

My approach to this problem: I expect to rewatch it 5 times (or so) before we get Jessica Jones.

I am surprised that I haven't seen more of this complaint but:

What's there to complain about?

I was pretty pissed about that as well.  Great series, but that was a pretty big fuck up and a complete waste, imo.

Bullshit.  To say it was a fuck up simply means that the comics are sacred and the show dare not tread any ground the comics don't.  Great character sure but it made sense in the narrative and there are a hundred other ways to tie things together.  If you want spoilers, look up the symbol on Madam Gao's heroin packets.

Definitely not a fuck-up, certainly not a waste, but gods above it made me sad.

Making characters sacred, being afraid to drop anyone from the cast, You know where that leads? Heroes.

I've never been a fan of DD, can count on one hand how many of his comics I've bought, but yeah, this show delivers the goods. 

Just got through Ep2 and 3.

Hallway scene - fuck me. An homage to Oldboy but without being director wank, and really, really amazing fucking filmmaking.

Ep 3 - just  :ye_gods: :ye_gods: :ye_gods: :ye_gods: :ye_gods:

The fact that this show probably won't even be nominated for Emmys (I'm not even sure it's eligible) is a goddamn travesty. This isn't just good superhero drama, this is great fucking drama.

Of the great many things that went wrong with heroes, not killing off enough of the cast was at the very very bottom of the list.   :awesome_for_real:


Anyways, I liked the series a lot.  The only quibble I have is that the Daredevil, err, doesn't actually seem that good.  He seems to get the crap kicked out of him by normal dudes fairly often.  For a guy who is suppose to be able to sense everything that's going on, and exactly what his opponent is about to do, he's really bad at dodging kicks to the face.   :why_so_serious:


But on the other hand, it did give the fights a visceral, intense feel.

Think of the last episode...spoilers...of course.

He's not omniscient.  :awesome_for_real: His concentration can be broken and sometimes even knowing a punch is coming doesn't mean you can stop it.

He flat out says in the series he has to concentrate to pay attention to certain things which is why he can still miss out on some stuff he could have determined had he been focusing on the issue. His powers downside is basically information overload he can do some insane things when he focuses but he cannot focus on everything at all times.

Also he was seriously fucked up throughout most of the show, specially after the ninja fight.

Pssst, hey Daredevil, here's three easy steps to winning every fight.

1.  Turn off all the lights
2.  Kick their asses
3.  Wait, nevermind, only two steps

That would make sense but it would make for a shitty tv show.

On the last episode of Daredevil:

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/704172/F13%20Photos/lamp_in_darkness-wallpaper-800x600.jpg)

So far I've watched 4 episodes. Thoughts:

1. I find the side character stuff very uneven. Karen Page seems to be unbelievably dumb. When they give her the papers to sign why doesn't she show them to, you know, the lawyers she works for? It feels like they're trying very hard to give her a B story fairly separate from the main story, but why it's separate is highly contrived. The "Karen and Foggy go out drinking" was another B story that didn't work for me. DD interacting with Claire also doesn't do a lot for me. (her character is also the most credulity-straining one)

2. So far my favorite scenes have been the ones with the bowling alley guy. Great acting from that guy. In general I hope the legal stuff comes into play more - I don't want something that is half legal drama but I like that the legal stuff isn't just irrelevant backdrop. Also the idea that in court DD believes in the letter of the law is nice rather than just being a crusader of conscience, which is more what audiences would expect from a typical good guy.

3. Though I haven't seen much of him I like the portrayal of Kingpin as some sort of weird awkward man-child.

Overall I do like it and I appreciate that it isn't the normal Marvel schlock. People like to say that the Marvel movies are different genres - one is a "political / spy thriller", one is a psuedo-comedy, etc, but really to me they're all pretty much the same Marvel Movie genre, in which a nondescript bad guy tries to kill people with magical blue energy. This is genuinely different, which is nice to say. It doesn't have the same save the world schtick or the typical wittier-than-thou banter.

This show gets a lot of love from me. Love the "street hero" aspect of this character. He isn't a billionaire wearing bullet proof next gen halo gear. Or so ridiculously trained and efficient that he basically can't be tagged by anyone but the big bads. You feel like he has to die, you see why he has to keep what he does a secret, and he has his own doubts and conflicts, between being a good man, an asshole, or a killer. My only point of pain is Wilson Fisk. This is kinda interesting since this show is very much stacked on the good guy side while the bad guys are mostly effective plot devices and not much more. Wilson Fisk works but he is a far cry from his usual portrayals even if they hit on his common themes.

Just finished this today.  Great show.  If this is how Marvel will do grimdark then darken my grim the fuck up.  The writing and acting were just excellent. Never felt like a cheap show, just a good solid crime drama with fucking ninjas and shit.  Ninja's always make things better.

Finished today. 

Great show.  I am really pleased.

Favorite moment: That last fight scene in Episode 2.  Those 2 and a half minutes may be the best fight scene I ever see.  The camera work and direction are masterful.  The use of what is seen and what isn't... incredible.

I really hope Season 2 doesn't have to wait until after Defenders....

I totally failed at my game plan of watching one per week. Holy shit was that an amazing first season.

Depending on what their narrative is for the other shows, it will probably be after Defenders.  I wonder if they are even going to go back to single character seasons or make Defenders the main show.

It may have been the original plan, who knows.  The fact that this is so well received and also being on netflix makes me think they may stay on the yearly release schedule for all their other original programming however.

I think out of all the Netflix shows Jessica Jones may be their hardest sell.  They may wait to see how that does.  I'd actually be all in for the 4 series straight to Defenders.. then Daredevil Season 2 and Heroes For Hire Season 1 with Iron Fist/Cage/Jones.

Yeah, I agree with that.  Hey, does anyone have a clue about

Madam Gao is theorized to be...

Just to remind everyone, the original game plan has been for them to do a series every 8 to 15 months - Daredevil, then 8 months to Jessica Jones (December 2015), then 8 to 15 to Luke Cage, then 8 to 15 to Iron Fist then 8 to 15 to Defenders.  That puts Defenders in 2018 to 2020.  If we need to wait until 2019 to 2021 for Daredevil Season 2 (if it waits until after Defenders) I'll be very disappointed. 

However, I don't think that is the plan because of one line in the show - the mention that it'd takeThat tells me they want to set a story in a year.  I hope I'm right...

AFAIK Cage isn't getting his own show solo, he's being paired with JJ and after that Iron fist.

That is not the plan I've heard.

http://www.comingsoon.net/tv/news/397745-netflix-clarifies-release-plans-for-marvel-series#/slide/1 (http://www.comingsoon.net/tv/news/397745-netflix-clarifies-release-plans-for-marvel-series#/slide/1)

Apparently the new season is scheduled for 2016. You can't go broke betting on execs liking money!

I don't see them waiting until after Defenders to do another season of Daredevil unless they want DeKnight and the writers working on Luke Cage or Iron Fist. Seems like it would be a waste to not have them locked down and working on something even if it's just a four episode miniseries or some 2 hour specials here and there or something. Really Daredevil has probably had around as much screen time in 13 episodes as Iron Man has had across three solo and two Avengers movies, so I'm not particularly desperate for more Daredevil right away but I'd be interested in seeing this crew stick together at least.

Not to mention running the risk of people not giving a fuck after that long, or actors dying/ being tied-down on other projects.

Marvel tends to be pretty good at getting their key actors under contract for multiple projects, and I'm sure Charlie Cox in particular is already signed on for appearances in the other Netflix shows. I don't know that you really need to worry about people not giving a fuck after a long break though. Seems like an increasingly outdated way of looking at TV. It's easy enough to rewatch a 13 episode season, especially on Netflix., and you'd be looking at more or less the same gap that you see between each Avenger's solo movies (2-3 years). I think if Season 2 were to come out in 2017 and is a quality product, people are going to watch it.

Final opinion after watching the whole thing - I definitely think the first 4 or so episodes were better than the remainder. Going to spoiler this just to be safe:

They do allude to him faster than normal healing in a couple instances when talking about the extent of his abilities.  The Stick line about meditation is likely a red herring the old man threw in so young Matt didn't freak out too much over super human ability.

All of these comments about how the first episodes were the best have me wondering what we'do have seen had Goddard stayed...

I don't really have a problem with how the later episodes are written as much as the broad plot structure they follow. In fact I think the first couple episodes were worse than the rest in terms of including overly cute dialogue. (AKA Whedonisms) For example "I'm not confessing for what I did, but for what I'm about to do." It's a very generic "badass" quip.

I assume that the series was pretty plotted out, so I don't know that the individual writers made too much of a difference. In network TV a lot of things are loosely planned and the writers just kind of make it up as they go along, shooting new episodes as old ones are airing, but I get the feeling that a thing like this is much more put together from the outset.

Daredevil season 2

If you’ve already watched all 13 episodes of “Marvel’s Daredevil” on Netflix and are eager for more, we’ve got some good news. Netflix has just announced that they’ve picked up the series for a second season that will premiere in 2016.

Doug Petrie (“Buffy the Vampire Slayer,” “American Horror Story”) and Marco Ramirez (“Sons of Anarchy”), who worked closely with Executive Producers Steven S. DeKnight and Drew Goddard during the first season, will serve as showrunners for season two. Goddard, Petrie and Ramirez will serve as Executive Producers for season two alongside Jeph Loeb.

“While previous commitments unfortunately prevent me from continuing on with Daredevil into its second season, I could not be happier that Doug Petrie and Marco Ramirez are carrying the torch,” says DeKnight. “They were invaluable collaborators during our first season, and I for one can’t wait to see what they do with the show moving forward.”


Well that answers our question of when.  Netflix is going to be pumping out shows if they are this fast on getting another season done.  Pretty much means it will probably be released around the same time as Luke Cage comes out.

That's great news.  It means they aren't just limiting themselves to the timing of the other shows.  Also means that Netflix considered this series a big success.  Which means the chances of DeKnight getting his wish and being able to do a hard R Punisher series are increased.

As much as I like Punisher, I don't think he'll have the mass market appeal.  Simply because he's just a generic action hero.  With some minor changes John Wick could have been called Punisher.  Now, would I personally want to watch a Punisher show/movie.  Yes.  However most of the non comic crowd may not really care... and actually that's shown in the last 2 movies.

Thise daredevil might as well be called the punisher. I think that shows that people are more than willing to watch if the series is given weight and solid writing.  In fact the punisher has way more potential for grit and drama than daredevil.

Just finished it. Yea, that was good tv. I always considered Kingpin to be a really rather lame villain, but I have to agree with the previous comment, this series became more about Fisk than Daredevil, and it was awesome.

Loved the iconic final shot.

Apparently the new season is scheduled for 2016. You can't go broke betting on execs liking money!

(I accidentally edited my post in which this prediction originally appeared!)

Due to their business model, it's hard to tell to what extent another season (or even this season) makes them money. They had record subscriber growth last quarter with the third season of House of Cards and the launch of Bloodline and Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. This quarter they have the launch of Daredevil, Grace and Frankie (Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin comedy), Sense8 (the Wachowski's and J. Michael Straczynski), and the third season of Orange is the New Black. They're apparently forecasting a net increase of 1.9 million internationally for Q2 which they say is traditionally a slow period for them, compared to the 4.9 million subs they gained in Q1. It will be interesting to see the Q2 numbers in a few months and to what extent they can be attributed to Daredevil.

Daredevil is going to bring in a pretty substantial ammount of new viewers; universal acclaim and the good will of Marvel fans has pretty much guaranteed Netflix' success on this one. This will probably be their best 2nd Quarter since they started.

They are doing a lot to draw people in... but then they need to continue to do stuff to keep them.  They really need to give long term subscribers some 'thank you' type stuff to discourage people dropping Netflix for 6 months and then getting it back for 6 months. 

Very happy for a 2nd season of DD, though I'm slightly concerned about a new showrunner.  Also, the comedy classic 'Airplane!' is leaving Netflix next month, and I surely am serious.

The new show runners are in the same family and wrote episodes of the current season - I'm not terribly worried that they'll take the quality down beneath the second half of this season... but I am not confident they'll raise it back up to the first few episodes.

OOC: This season was very dark with the lighting - which makes sense given the character.  However, some of the action was hard to see.  Would folks have liked it to be lightened up a bit so we could see more detail?

In a word, no. I liked that most of the fights were dark and hard to see, with a few exceptions that were a little more detailed like the hallway fight. Helped make that fight stand out as special. The darkness just worked too well to move away from it. Fits the character and the mood of the series - he's only Daredevil at night. Plus, with the costume now the last thing I want is to brighten things up. Keep it in the dark so he doesn't end up looking like Kickass running around in a scuba suit.

Hell, it would fit the character even more if his first move was to always break all the lights. Would kinda suck for tv though.

For a few episodes I was wondering why I didn't hate the low lighting (usually I do).

After a while started to notice highlights were either strategically positioned so you could always see what the fuck was going on and what you were supposed to focus on, or stuff was done off-screen/behind a thing so you were clear you didn't need to strain to see anything.

Anyway, this was great, in many respects better than the films. Though I'm not completely sure it will benefit from many more episodes, we'll see I guess.

Okay, finally worked all the way through; It's awesome. The final episode, unfortunately, actually seems the weakest in a lot of ways, the strongest are probably about episodes 9-10. Get the feeling that they were not shot in order, that the first few episodes were done in the middle of the shooting series (when all the actors were comfortable with their characters and the director had really hit his stride), and the 'final' episode in this season was actually one of the very first shot.

--Dave

Just watched the first two episodes with my wife.  We are hooked. 

Exact same today.

That was surprisingly good. I was apathetic at best toward DD as a hero before, but the show kept me watching. DD felt a lot more "real" than many heroes do, especially how they made it clear he's not invulnerable. Having Fisk as a bad guy with a lot of depth was much better than the normal Hollywood mustache-twirling villain. The multiple Avengers references were a nice touch to cement the series in the Marvel Universe.

One concern about a potential issue in season two:

Realistically though, I cannot fathom how they can bring back Fisk.  Only if he escapes and is living totally underground, hiding in a sewer lair like the ninja turtles, as he directs everything.  Not only did he get pinned for all sorts of murders, he had a ton of cops killed during his escape attempt.  There is no way he will be able to lawyer his way out of things magically that won't totally blow the entire feeling of the show out of the water.

They'll need a different villan for season two.

(https://tommygirard.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/bullseye-1_528_poster.jpg)

Considering he made a cameo in season one, not a bad bet.

Did they already deal with the Hand?  What about Elektra?

Well they had a Hand leader on the show.. Nobu.  I am sure there is going to be some consequences down the line for that.  Which could be Elektra.  She was at least referenced as Matt's ex-gf.

They've made references that could be various people (Steel Serpent, Crane Mother, Elektra, Stone, Owl), and there's no reason they have to limit themselves to those. Some are more clear as future hooks than others (Stone was pretty heavily hinted, while Elektra was a bit iffy even as a reference), and some are probably intended for the Luke Cage series.

I think Bullseye was obviously intended, why else would you put that playing card into this series?

--Dave

I think they are probably going to save the heavier mysticism stuff for when Iron Fist shows up.  There are rumblings that it could be Lady Bullseye that shows up and not the original as well.

We've had some arguments over how magic/mysticism could be introduced into the MCU (which has leaned pretty hard on magic just being science Earth doesn't understand), coming in through the Netflix series could be a good way to do it without putting the main stream of the movies and broadcast TV at risk if it doesn't work.

--Dave

Yeah, except mysticism and magic have to be introduced AND work in the movies. Doctor Strange is out next year, Iron Fist isn't going to be on Netflix before that.

Also, they have to consider multiple groups when they introduce it: People that only see the series/movie where it is introduced, people that only see some of the series/shows and people that see all of them.  The magic has to stand on its own, and as part of the greater MCU.  Given that they distanced themselves from it with their Thor take, it will be an interesting challenge. 

I saw that rumor this morning when looking up Dr. Strange's release date (since I thought it was 2017 not 16)  They all said "Iron Fist" at that point, which comes out after themovie..

They didn't so much shy away from magic with Thor, as they avoided divinity.  Saying that there are actual gods with divine powers opens up a whole can of worms that's best avoided.  Magic and mysticism are a different beast.

I don't think it is nearly as hard as people are making out.

Science and magic in the same blockbuster has been done been done before and it turned out ok.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/85841906/19fk32sw3nt1wjpg.jpg)

Merusk, within the context of the movie Thor, I felt all that was to make sure everybody understood Thor was actually an alien and not a god with divine powers.  The comic book route of saying that he is literally a god and that Norse mythology is actually the correct religion would have been too stupid for the general public.  They obviously don't have a problem with Magic being in their universe, as they've committed to making a Dr. Strange movie.  There is no way in hell they'll be able to take the science route with him.

Can you fly from Earth to Asgard in a spaceship? Why is there only nine worlds in Asgardian cosmology when there is 10 of thousands of inhabited worlds in the Marvel universe? Until the movies answer that, there always be a nagging in back on head wondering how the MCU makes sense.

The 9 worlds are linked, that's why they are special.

I took it to mean 9 planes, and so no, you can't. But I don't know the Marvel nerd explanation.

But even if it turns out they mean 'these are the 9 planets we know about or give a shit about' I'm ok with that, as although Asgard is more advanced than Earth, noone ever claimed they are omniscient.

Well the Asgardians obviously know about and are in contact with the other planets/civilizations of the Marvel universe, as they sent the Aether to the Collector, have mentioned the Skrulls, and Lady Sif tangled with that Kree bounty hunter on MAoS.

If they ever try to reconcile the Asgardian 'science like magic' with the merely extremely high tech of the rest of the cosmos, I dunno.

--Dave

I said it in another thread, but I figured the 9 planets were reserved for the Asgardians sphere of influence.  Otherwise you have more than a Kree secret breeding program on Earth, you'd have invasions and Nova 'protecting' it.  Just my rationale for it though.

I think you guys need to realize that they didn't think very hard about Asgard or any part of Thor's lore beyond dude with hammer and his man pretty brother does stuff.

If you think they didn't overthink every decision they've made, you're not paying attention.  Just look at the Easter Eggs they slip in... the things they set up.  They put a lot of preparation into everything they do.  The decision to ground Thor in pseudo-science was very deliberate and discussed.

"Why can Cyclops shoot lasers out of his eyes, that doesn't make sense!"
"He's a mutant - he has a mutation that makes his eyes shoot lasers."
"Ok...but then why doesn't the skin around his eyes burn off when he shoots?"
"Oh...did we say lasers? He shoots bolts of force, not lasers. They aren't hot."
"Wait...how can an eye generate a bolt of force?"
"His eyes move super fast, oscillating to create waves of force"
"So wait...he has super strong muscles behind his eyes? Where does his brain fit then."
....

None of it makes sense! It's turtles all the way down. (by turtles I mean bullshit)

If you think too hard about Thor and Asgard it doesn't make sense. But you can say the  same for 99% of comic. Don't think too hard. That's not the point of comics - they aren't speculative fiction.

This is why I liked Batman Begins.  Apart from some of the Ninja stuff, I didn't have to worry about all this shit.

Even Iron Man worked in my head. 

The morale of the story is money can do anything.  I guess.

I'd also be entirely happy with an explanation that runs "we only knew about 9 when we wrote that book, don't expect our religious texts from 300 eons ago to be literally true any more than yours are".

Point is, until we hit a point where plot or character development depends on exactly 9 worlds existing (which has seems unlikely), I don't think it matters a damn.

They've mentioned the nine worlds have some sort of cosmic balance/significance and that the Asgard watch over them.  I'm 100% certain they know other worlds exist but that these nine are under their direct watch.

MORALE

MORALE

In his defense he was sober.

So he was in good spirits?

Electra http://comicbook.com/2015/05/26/possible-elketra-auditions-for-season-2-of-netflixs-daredevil/ (http://comicbook.com/2015/05/26/possible-elketra-auditions-for-season-2-of-netflixs-daredevil/).

I really want to her to pop as a character... and to look like a Greek.  An Asian Elektra would be as odd to me as Jeff Foxworthy as Black Panther. 

Wait, that suddenly sounds awesome.

Maybe not as BP but Hunter/White Wolf would be fine.  :grin:

You know you're a Wakandan if your spear pops your popcorn in 75 seconds or less.

I call Elektra being cast as a transgender Filipino.   :why_so_serious:

They can use the guy from Banshee.

 :heart:

http://io9.com/jon-bernthal-will-play-the-punisher-in-daredevil-season-1710169763 (http://io9.com/jon-bernthal-will-play-the-punisher-in-daredevil-season-1710169763)
Love this actor. Love this antagonist for season 2.

YES.

I was hoping Punisher would make an appearance. The tone of Daredevil is *perfect* for him. Plus, great casting imo.

My only concern, and this is minor, is that Bernthal has a rep for not playing well with others.  It would be a shame for the actor's history to repeat and for that to limit the chances of a Punisher series.

Beyond that - awesome. 

Great choice, can't wait to see him as the Punisher. So DD is going to meet a fellow vigilante who prefers to leave bodies.  Interesting.

Can't say I've ever read anything to this effect.

Yeah, I've never heard or seen anything about that either.

I never hardly ever liked the Punisher but I can give them teh benefit of the doubt. They built up a LOT of credit.


-edit- I did enjoy that one scene with him fighting the giant russian dude in the bathroom. That was rad.

When Frank Darabont 'left' Walking Dead there was a bit of finger pointing.  He was identified as someone loyal to Darabont that made the 'transition' time difficult after the departure.  Not sure if it is true or not, but it was out there.  There was about a million stories at the time.  There were also some comments made surrounding his participation in Fury and the stuff David Ayer had him do (fight club every morning)...

As I said, minor concern.  I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it because everyone gets accused of something in Hollywood - it just stuck out in my brain.

There have been a number of rumors and stories about how the people running AMC have almost managed to fuck up some of their most successful programs and I don't think any of the ones I've read point to Bernthal being the cause of any of them. As for Fury, sticking someone in a small, enclosed space for a good chunk of time will probably wear on the nerves a lot, but given that he was in there with Pitt and LaBeouf I'd find it very hard to believe if he was the craziest or most difficult person to work with on that set.

If I had to be stuck in enclosed spaces with Shia, I'd be hard to deal with too.

The first season of Daredevil has bought them a lot of rope as far as I am concerned, and the Punisher was one of the few Marvel heroes I liked (Ironman I was soso on, and I despised Thor, Hulk was my favorite), so I'm willing to let this play out. Bullshit Hollywood gossip/fingerpointing I give not a shit about, his on-screen performances have always seemed fine to me.

--Dave

As I said, I probably shouldn't have mentioned it.  Forget I mentioned it.  I only did because it sticks out in my brain when I hear him mentioned, not because there was a lot of discussion on it.

Although, as he had the opportunity to end Shia and didn't, he clearly isn't quite ready to be the Punisher. 

Was hoping Punisher would get his own series, but this is still a nice turn of events.  I'd love to see an adaption of Punisher: Born as an origin story for him (though they'd have to rewrite it for Afghanistan).   Alas, maybe some day.

It'd be hilarious to retcon him into the convoy that protected Stark... (not serious)

Just binged this over a week. Holy crap this was awesome. Can't wait for more. My only beef is the mask. The horn things are dumb. I liked the blindfold-y balaclava thing better. I don't know nor care if it's accurate to the comic book. My whole life experience with Daredevil is vague awareness of the name, Ben Affleck and Netflix Season 1  :grin:


Accurate or not, wouldn't this, like, fit right into him being Murdock's nemsis in season 2?  :oh_i_see:

I've watched all of these and I enjoyed it.  I like that it's dark... it makes me feel grown up.  ;p 

Finished watching this over the weekend.

Holy fuck. This isn't just a good superhero show, this is a really good drama. You can't really pigeonhole this as a superhero show anyway - there were some episodes where the superhero isn't even in it for more than five seconds. There was a serious depth of character in everyone, the acting was great, the cinematography was beautiful throughout and you really got to care about all the characters, good and bad. I was saddened and surprised by both


but I understood them both. Adding the Punisher, Hand, Bullseye and Elektra next season will be fantastic, plus we'll likely learn about Karen Page's big secret (readers of the comics already know it).

We have Elektra.  Elodie Yung.  Quite capable of playing the role it sounds like, but doesn't exactly scream Greek to me (Cambodian/French ancestry). http://tvline.com/2015/07/07/daredevil-season-2-elektra-elodie-yung/#more-624453 (http://tvline.com/2015/07/07/daredevil-season-2-elektra-elodie-yung/#more-624453)

Neat little bit: She has a law degree.

Ooh, Jinx.

Yes please.

Martial arts = Asian, of course. You should know that. A female, Greek martial artist would just be ridiculous. No one would buy that. I mean, who would write such a character?

(http://movies.dosthana.com/sites/default/files/image-gallery/Frank%20Miller1.jpg)

Yeah, but that motherfuck IS crazy.

My hope is that they want to tie the character to the existing threats, Iron First, etc.... and thus have a somewhat story related reason to make the change. 

Q4 release for Jessica Jones, and they're looking to put shows out every six months or so now (presumably Daredevil season 2 would be next in sometime in Q2 2016).

Potential Season 2 Release Date: March 25th. 

http://comicbook.com/2016/01/04/daredevil-season-2-to-debut-march-25th-against-batman-v-superman/ (http://comicbook.com/2016/01/04/daredevil-season-2-to-debut-march-25th-against-batman-v-superman/)

Don't really see the upside of this for Disney if true. Unless they simply figured the clash doesn't matter at all. Which it probably doesn't.

To be fair, before, I'd have given the odds of me seeing BvS on opening weekend to be about 30%. If this is true, the odds dropped to about 5%. I'd rather watch Season 2 and wait a few extra days for BVS.

Netflix decides the air date for the show not Disney.  The reason they are putting it up against BatVSupes is probably a jab at WB for pulling all their movies from Netflix a couple years ago.

Even better: New Poster says March 18 release.

So does the teaser trailer (http://www.geeksofdoom.com/2016/01/07/daredevil-season-2-teaser-trailer-premiere-poster?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+geeksofdoom+%28GEEKS+OF+DOOM%29).

Nice looking teaser, well done.

EDIT: OK I found my way to a different trailer with no information in it. That one is better.

Netflix has just been killing it with their original shows the last few years.

Season 2 Trailer Part 1 (http://www.geeksofdoom.com/2016/02/15/daredevil-new-season-2-trailer-focuses-punisher?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+geeksofdoom+%28GEEKS+OF+DOOM%29)

Be there.

I'm looking forward to this, too.  The first couple of episodes got me hooked. 

I really ought to watch the first season sometime.

I need to finish it; I think I'm on episode 8. It's a little too rough for the kids to watch and the wife isn't into it, so finding time to watch it isn't easy.

Season 1 is the best Marvel Season so far - and I've been a fan of every season of every Marvel show (although Agent Carter has been the show that barely crosses the fan line).

Really?  You hide it well.

Subtlty is my middle name.  MY MIDDLE FREAKING NAME.

Subtlty doesn't start with a "g".

Nice try.  I know how to spell gubtlty.

You really ought to. For me, Daredevil and Jessica Jones have outdone all the other superhero series. I enjoyed them lots and lots.

Both are worth watching in the same way Breaking Bad or Dexter were worth watching. It has nothing to do with being superhero series.

Less than 5 hours to go.   :awesome_for_real:

So far I'm about halfway through and I am loving it.  Bernthal is easily the best Punisher we've had.  Also I was hesitant about Elodie Yung as Elektra but she's handling the part well.

First four episodes in. This shit is so good. Why can't more shows be this well done.

Same amount in here and god damn this is the right kind of punisher.

Punisher and the actor playing him are superb.  Pretty much as good as VDO as Kingpin. 

My biggest gripe about this show are the actors and characters of Foggy and Karen.  They have no arc.  They're not believable and the actors are just not that great.  In Jessica Jones, the backup characters of Luke and her young neighbor were lightyears better and more interesting.  I have to slog through anything with Karen and Foggy.

That's because Karen and Foggy are ridiculously good and wholesome people. Very little nuisance, Foggy is Matts wife character, a less shrill version of say the tv wives we see in shows like breaking bad, justified, and sons of anarchy. Foggys a better character but his job is to literally nag Matt into being a normal person and throw a hissy fit when Matt says no. Karen is a good character which I have a hard time pinning down why i don't gel completely with her. Its not entirely because she is salt of the earth type, though that gets annoying but not grating. I think its the weird love triangle potential that I'm just waiting to not happen.

The wife and I will be watching this at a rate of roughly one a week again, which I'm fine with. First episode was good, I really love the aesthetic. I agree about Karen and Foggy, even on the basis of just that one episode. They're definitely the weakest points in it.

"Who killed my familiy?!"

"Who cares?"


Oh man, wrong answer.   :ye_gods:

Great insights, thanks.  I agree.  The moralizing part of the 2 characters is correct, but they're so weak dramatically that it doesn't work for me as agents guiding Matt's conscience. All Foggy seems to be is a horny alcoholic frat bro who plays an altruistic lawyer because his best friend/wife has an actual conscience, and Karen is... I don't know what.  She's had the larger trauma but there's no growth in how she responds or acts.  Neither Foggy or Karen seem to have any agency without Matt.  For example, S2E1, Karen frets about their finances, but nothing happens.  It's a device to show how nice they are but there's no consequences to the characters (that we see).  Very comic book I guess.  But it seemed the sidekicks and secondary characters in JJ were a lot better.

I often fast-forward over the non-DD parts of the story and stay with Stick/Elektra/Punisher arcs.  I did that with S1 as well, and it was only Karen's one session with Kingpin's dude in S1 that was noteworthy (and that didn't need any dialogue).

I like both Karen and Foggy and think they play their parts in the story well.  They are the moral center that keeps Matt grounded and keep him from turning into a Punisher or an Elektra.  I think the writers are a little heavy handed with forcing that part on them though.  Foggy is a bit too emo with Matt but it's just him trying to protect his friend.  They make Karen just do some dumb stuff to put her in peril, but she can take care of herself in some ways.  She's just fighting with her past and what she did in season 1.

You're making this sound like Sex and the City.

Season 2 was great. A worthy second effort. Slightly ... very slightly ... more tied to the non Netflix MCU.

I don't see the issue with Karen or Foggy.

There the two normies who desperately want to help their friend, but ultimately can't because they are again, regular ass people.

You might be right. This show is great.  Episode 9 was terrific.

Finished bingeing this. It's great, easily lives up, if not surpasses the first season.

The weak point in my mind:

I liked the second season and Kingpin was even better than in the first season (and Punisher was good too). I have to say that the Hand was the weakest link since

You didn't miss it, but I think we're seeing a setup for the Defenders.

Re:The Hand end series spoilers.

But so the right response. I almost expected a cheesy good-guy rage scene, not the actual response.

Now that I've distanced myself by a few days, I still love the second season, but do have a few problems with it:


All in all, I'm thinking this would have been better had they done a Punisher series (or movie) and then had him guest star in an episode or two of Daredevil after his origin story was complete.  Their stories were too distinct by the end of the series.  Pulling them back together at the end felt forced.

I am also still disappointed that Netflix, ABC and the movie folks are not coordinating better.  They talked a good game once upon a time, but (as most here expected - I was wrong, they were right) did not live up to it.  The NY skyline needs to show Avengers tower - it is literally a few blocks from Hell's Kitchen (theoretical address is 200 Park - the Metlife building) and it towers over everything when the movies or ABC series show it.  There are Inhumans showing up all over the world - and that doesn't even get a reference here or in Civil War (reportedly)?  There are a few superficial ties (a certain corporation that has been in the movies, ABC shows and Netflix), but I'm disappointed.  They couldn't have a brief reference at the newspaper about the global weirdness?  One reference by a character to Inhumans or metahumans to acknowledge this 'global threat' that the governments of the world are worried about?  There is a thematic tie between Daredevil series 2 and Civil War, but if they do not cross reference... poop.

I'm pretty sure the people who write for netflix don't have any love for the 1 hour commercial that is agents of shield or carter. And good riddance, the Movies have no obligation to the TV series, fucking Winter Soldier proves that and the tv series (the abc ones) are vanity projects with dubious intentions at best and no direction at worse. Also its pretty dumb that you can have the universes "connected" but none of the heroes cross over. There is nothing covert or undercover about whats going on in shield, yet we are to believe that said not so covert and not so secretive not shield can't call help from iron man or captain america or black widow or hawk eye or falcon, despite having all their numbers on speed dial. Its dumb. How would a MCU version of daredevil work? Captain American kills people without consideration or probably even registering that he super kicked someones spine in half before letting them drown in the Atlantic. Will he get a morality lecture from daredevil? Why does daredevil need to care about what happened in winter soldier? Or Avengers 2? Or that shitty thor movie.

OK JG I wanna go over your points and no, not to shit all over them but to maybe provide a fresh perspective and insight.  You aren't wrong on all of them either.


Also as said above, the best thing the netflix shows can do is ignore the existence of the network shows, lord knows I try to.

I... kind of have to agree with MediumHigh :ye_gods: :uhrr: in that I don't think the universes need to overlap much. One of the big, big problems comics have with the shared universe thing is that different characters really do better dealing with different issues. Street level heros aren't just street level because of their powers (though that is definitely part of it) but also because of the kind of dilemmas they face and the kinds of the challenges they have. Balancing your real life and vigilantism works if it's Daredevil, it's a lot less interesting if it's Tony Stark trying to run his multi-million dollar corporation and balancing his saving the world from terrorists with nukes versus attending charity galas to fund research into Zika. Likewise you can care about killing people when it's up close fighting, trying to put down gangs with conventional weapons. If Captain America was agonising over every alien invader or neo-Nazi in a tank he was taking down surviving it would come off as ridiculous.

They should go on concentrating on telling consistent stories for their heroes. A shared universe through occasional nods is nice but I'd rather they're doing something good with the characters and frankly the Netflix stuff is way better than even the best of the movies.

Question about the last episode and Punisher:

I'm on episode 6 or 7 - the Elektra parts are awful. The Wacky Adventures of Elektra and Matt just aren't doing anything for me at all, it feels very cliche and hokey and her character isn't working for me at all.


Just accept that the ABC shows are fucking garbage that exist only to make money and employ less-talented Whedons. If you were making major Hollywood movies or prestige Netflix shows would you want to tightly coordinate with shitty network shows that look like ass, are written like ass and acted like ass, and that rely on D-list characters like "generic strong black guy" and "captain mcdipshit"?

I'd wager that the vast majority of people working on Netflix and movies haven't even seen the ABC shows.

The worst thing the Netflix shows could do is make pointless diversions into Inumans garbage. Like, the show is supposed to pause for a bit so that the characters can discuss a guy with CGI skin covering his eyes that looks so amateurish that I thought it was a Netflix encoding problem rather than a visual effect?

The shows exist simply to make money. Not to tell stories worth telling, not to enhance the mythology, not to seed concepts into the movies - an accountant saw that the Marvel movies were doing well and figured TV shows could also do well. That's it.

Accept it! Not everything exists for grand creative vision reasons.

I enjoyed the season, but it definitely felt like it was an episode short of what it needed to properly address the various plot points and their resolutions. I liked it more than the first season, overall, but it didn't feel as well put together as the first.

Yeah I think the lost plot elements will be going into the next season/show.  They did the same thing with season 1 and them never explaining why the only reason the Yakuza was working with Fisk was for that one block.

I thought the first season started out well but then got a lot worse in the back half and I felt the same here. All the ninja stuff just doesn't do it for me.


I ended up feeling pretty much the same about the second season as I did the first - I think both would work better as maybe 8 episode installments, that were tighter and didn't devolve into Foot Clan shenanigans.

Finally finished binging this, but I am still going to put off RL productivity by joining this thread..

 :grin:

So many things done well. Better suit, great Punisher, Melvin, great storyline (again), so many others I'll need to spoiler.


Even though I've done the cliched internet thing of spending ten times the text on the stuff I didn't like over the stuff I did, the bottom line is that Netflix is still knocking it out of the park with its contribution to the MCU. Great job transcending comic book tropes to bring us a great show that totally stands on its own and also comfortably lives in the overall universe.

Really looking forward to Luke Cage now.

I think it's fair to say that DD's powers make no fucking sense.

He can somehow hear that a metal box is full of military-grade rifle shells, but he can't hear people running around....what? It's probably best not to think about it, because there's no way to make what he can and can't do make any sense.

He can navigate around the environment, which means his "sonar" works on non-moving objects like walls and light posts. How then would it not work on people moving around, who both reflect "sonar" and make noise themselves?

It's obviously way too late for this, but I think it would be interesting if they had made an effort to think a bit more about his powers and made it so that he can make out shapes and movement, but not do things like sense an object inside another object. But that ship has sailed - his powers are really just magic, and the Hand dudes had anti-magic auras.

DD has super-smell and super-touch too, according to other incidents in both seasons; apart from the Hand thing many of the other power uses seemed to stem from using senses other than hearing. There was still a generous dose of powers working/not working right for dramatic purposes, though, just like in every other superhero movie/show/comic.

As for the Hand issues,

One really small issue I have about 4 episodes in, Charlie Cox seems to have forgotten to act blind.

Last year they went to a lot of effort to not have him indicate what he was thinking about by having him stare at something. This time he's glancing around like a crazy person.

I'm 9 episodes in, just watched the one with

The MCU has about as much in common with the main Marvel continuity as the Ultimate version did. Some characters are very similar. Others, not so much...

And some MCU characters have been written very differently over the years. She has been a bit inconsistent if I recall correctly.

I finally watched the 2nd season a while ago and just now got to reading this thread.

The Hand ARE magic. Fucking ninja clan, man. Of course they are magic. In Elektra: Assassin, it was firmly established that the Hand has some mystic "The Beast" in a hole somewhere and worships it, and it gives them mystical powers. It corrupted Elektra young (after she met and left Matt Murdock in college) and one of the stories after her first death in the comics was about the Hand (and later one of Stick's disciples, Stone) resurrecting her. So while they changed the timeline of how Elektra gets corrupted by the Hand, expect the 3rd season of Daredevil to be The Hand/Elektra vs. Daredevil with some Kingpin and Bullseye on one side of it and Bullseye to kill Elektra again.

I also expect a good deal of season 3's dramatic arc is Matt trying to rationalize his acceptance of Castle's violence. Also, hopefully the Punisher show will be Frank Castle On The Road. Bernthal as the Punisher was just the best interpretation of that character ever. He was perfect.

I'd be fine if they tied the Netflix stuff loosely to some of the Agents of Shield stuff, but I like AOS. It's also not really necessary as one of the things they seem to be saying with the Netflix stuff is "these are the places the 'Gods' of the Marvel Universe don't see and can't affect - it's too small for them" even when it isn't. Spider-Man would be a good bridge to that but that won't happen.

I was the most hopeful that they'd tie ABC, Netflix and the movies together. 

So sadly disappointed.  Netflix shows are great, but in relation to the MCU movies, they're just fan fiction.

Yep.

Agents is fan fiction.

Netflix comes across as an entirely separate continuity.

And I'm good with that. I only wish they'd stop shoehorning unnecessary film references into them.

My dream is that they do a Punisher series that basically translates the Punisher: Born comic into Afghanistan.

Netflix really seem more like side canon. They don't directly interact and its unlikely they're going to be making world changing events or similar that will end up with the movies contradicting them. Unless you were hoping for events in Netflix series to be referenced/actually effect the MCU? Unlikely simply because the co-ordination involved seems more than anyone would be willing to do even if it would be relatively minor.

It isn't the coordination that is a problem: It is the rights and money.  The coordination is an excuse.  They know what is going to happen in the movies far in advance.  it gets tweaked, but the broad tstrokes are there.  They could use that information when crafting TV.  Further, TV could plan out some things and let the movie folks know so that it can be referenced.  Hell, all you have to do is tweak a line or two in Civl War where the speaker has their back to the camera (no reshoot, just redub a line) and you'd have tied in Agents of Shield and the Netflix sufficiently with refernces to vigilantes in NY and a reference to the growing number of metahumans in the world addressing MAoS and the Inhumans.  It might have been slightly clumsy, but it would have been better than having the Civil War movie ignore something that should have been a key discussion point in the accords: The global explosion of powered individuals.

The movies are the MCU.  Netflix is good fan faction.  MAoS is like fan faction being written by dozens of different people.

You know, it's tricky. I have to say I have liked all three series so far and yet I haven't liked them. Part of it is that all of them have terribly dull stretches in the middle. But it's also that each of them is just slightly too afraid of the more florid or exotic dimensions of the superhero, which is possibly a production-dictated decisions as much as an aesthetic one. (e.g., the more spectacular/exaggerated a comic-book movie gets, the more your effects budget has to grow or you end up looking cheap).

I agree with this. Will have to wait and see how fantastical they go with Iron Fist (March 2017 IIRC).

I am pleased they don't do this - it would stand out like a sore thumb and immeadiately bring to mind a whole bunch of stuff from the tv shows that is not relevant to the story at hand.

I'm ok with them leaving out all the "we can't say mutant" stuff from Agents of Shield. As a 70s/80s kid who grew up on X-Men, it constantly annoys me. I wish Marvel could get its legal house in order, because mutants raise all ships; using mutants in the other franchises will not reduce butts in seats for their garbage X-Men flicks.

Having mutants wouldn't help the MCU at all. The X-Men in the current Marvel comic continuity have no real place or purpose for being there. It's pretty terrible.

Further, the biggest problem I have with Marvel comics right now is too many panels wasted 'crossing over' to find out what characters who don't matter to this story think about affairs.

If I were running things, I'd have taken the opportunity of the most recent apocalypse to wall mutants off in a separate continuity. Would have cut the crossover issues in half at a stroke.

Totally agree.  I really like the current Marvel Movie universe because it lacks mutants.  Superheroes are still rare'ish and special!  In the marvel comics, fucking half the population is powered now.  And yet, for some reason, people still act racist/prejudice towards mutants no matter what they do, but people who got their powers through crazy experiments or whatever are totally awesome!  The civil rights angle makes no sense at this point, and they water down everything. 

Putting them into their own universe where its just x-men/mutants and nobody else would do wonders for the storytelling.  So I actually like that it's happened in the movie world because Fox just owns the X-men rights.  They've done a lot of terrible shit (along with some good) with it, but it's a much better setup.

Both DC and Marvel would be bad models for films and TV in this specific sense--a world with THAT many super-powered people has no excuse being portrayed as "mostly just like our world, only slightly different". Busiek's Astro City is one of the few conventional-ish superhero comics to recognize how thoroughly different a world like that would be even within fairly conventional genre parameters.

The kind of storytelling you have to do when there's one hundred or more superpowered people in tights running around Manhattan and the chance of getting hurt in a superhero battle is as high as the chance of getting hit by a car while crossing the street in Manhattan (unfortunately: high) is different. You can get away with it in the comics but not in movies that are meant to visually invoke "the world we live in"--think how much all the Marvel movies depend at least somewhat on the relatively exotic nature of the superpowered character vis-a-vis all non-supers they encounter. Doctor Strange doesn't work if all non-magicians are like, "Oh, pfff, magic, yeah I know all about that, the Weather Channel had a thing about Shuma-Gorath flinging deadly ectoplasm onto Baton Rouge yesterday and I wondered why the Louisiana National Guard didn't just cast the Flames of Faltorah at it". Spider-Man in the movies doesn't work if the kids in his high school all go, "hey I heard Darkhawk actually goes to our rival high school, and Nova too, big fucking deal that Spidey gets seen around here. Whatevs."

Did you guys see Fox greenlit an X-Men tv show?  :why_so_serious:

I mostly like what I was reading with the All-New X-Men and the whole Cyclops/Magneto/Emma Frost/Magik New School X-Men idea. I'm way less picky about comics than you guys, though.

Yeah, that book is dead now as is Cyclops. Don't worry - I haven't spoiled anything, as they didn't reveal how he died or how the new X-Men status quo was setup after Secret Wars. The X-Men books have all gone downhill since that one (and I didn't like that one much, but I did love the art).

I remember and X-Men TV series already with Banshee and Emma Frost teaching some retards.

But apparently I dreamt it because I can't find it on imdb or wiki ?  Have I gone insane ?

It was called Generation X. Fox tried to get it started as a series but they only ever made a pretty meh pilot 2-hour movie with Matt Frewer as the villain. I think I have it recorded on VHS somewhere but I think I only watched it once. It was based on the comic of the same name from the 90's.

There is also Legion, which is starting on FX in February. It's based on Legion (schizo son of Prof. Xavier) comics, but the TV version is not in the same universe as the X-Men so there won't be any Prof. X. It's starring the guy who played Matthew on Downton Abbey and is created by Noah Hawley, the guy who created the Fargo TV series. And again, it won't be related to the Fox X-Men TV show.

You wonder why, in some sense, they don't just independently go with the idea of a mentally ill person who has a thousand different superpowered personalities. It's not as if that's specific enough to bring a lawsuit--Grant Morrison's Crazy Jane character in the Doom Patrol had almost the same schtick as Legion/David Haller and they were introduced within about four years of each other. If there's no X-Men and no Professor X and none of that, they don't gain much of anything by using this character specifically. It's not as if the character is extraordinarily popular on his own.

It's such a delicate balance. Overpopulated superhero universes only work in the comics, not as adaptations; completely unpopulated ones are best re-imagined as something other than superheroes per se. (e.g., if you're going to just have one main superpowered character, then lose all the other trappings--the costumes, the secret identities, etc., so you're able to tell a story without heavy genre obligations.

Returning October 19th for Season 3 - Nice.  I expected we'd have to wait until December.  This will be the 4th season of a show released this year for the Netflix MCU.  It looks like they're aiming to put these characters out about once every 15 months going forward based upon when we've seen what we saw and how they're scheduling filming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIYGyzNUYtQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIYGyzNUYtQ)

Back and generally getting good reviews.

Marthoned this since the fiance isn't back in town yet :awesome_for_real: It was a hell of a step up from Iron Fist and even Luke Cage. I have 0 complaints beyond the pacing of the final confrontation being a bit rushed but even that kind of works. Just a damn fine piece of work and it makes me feel a lot less bad about them cancelling IF just because it highlighted what they could be achieving.

The 'annual' hall fight in Episode 4 was, technically speaking, Amazeballs.  Still in the first half of the season, but it is really good so far.  It is pacing as one of the best seasons of Marvel yet.

This is way better than the last season.

Fuck.

Reportedly canceled.

https://deadline.com/2018/11/daredevil-canceled-netflix-3-seasons-1202511521/amp/ (https://deadline.com/2018/11/daredevil-canceled-netflix-3-seasons-1202511521/amp/)

The character may live on, but how is unclear.

See, it's kinda fucked. One of two things are likely happening.

1. They're basing renewals solely on licence, which is not controllable by viewers. In that case, the entire Marvel suite is going to Disneyflix.
2. They're basing renewals solely on viewership, which is fucked because too many modern companies base their decisions entirely on data, not data+ response.

I haven't watched Daredevil S3 yet because I'm too busy. I will watch it in the next six months as I have time to commit, but not now. I suspect those immediate viewership numbers are all that matter to the groups that determine renewals. And if that's the case, then Netflix is pretty fucked in the long term.

Unless it's based on my #1, it's a dumb decision.

At this point, I'm going with Disney fuckery of some sort, even it it's just Netflix reading the writing on the wall. From what I understand even if Disney can't pull their contract for shows already licensed, they have no plans to license any *more* characters, which includes villains and sidekicks.

I'm totally just talking out of my butt here, but I was willing to accept that Iron Fist and Luke Cage were yanked due to viewership, but if Daredevil wasn't getting views then I don't think anybody is.

Either way, I'd expect Jessica Jones and Punisher to be cut after their respective next seasons (Punisher already filmed, IIRC), and Netflix gets out of Marvel altogether.

Damn shame too. I enjoyed (mostly) the whole shebang.

I expect they'll either move the shows to Disneyflix or reboot them on that platform in a few years. Of course, a lot of that may depend on what they do with the MCU after Avengers 4. If they do a significant reboot, I could see them making new Disneyflix shows that can cross over into the movies like they should have been doing all along.

Stop after 3rd episode.  VDO was the most interesting but it was all pretty cringy and Catholic trope boring.

Punisher and Jessica are obvioulsy canceled if DD was canceled.  They'll just wait to announce it until after their next seasons. However, as I bet they expect people to drop after watching those, I suspect they'll drag out the release of those seasons.

Marvel was charging a licensing fee too high for Netflix to continue paying.  From my perspective, this may transition me into a 'subscribe for the summer only' approach with Netflix.  There are still Netflix shows I want to see, but I am not thinking of any that I have to see right away. Altered Carbon, Black Mirror and Stranger Things are not exactly urgent needs for me... well, maybe Stranger Things.  Maybe that release date will determine when I come back.

My hope is that Marvel does a 'New York' show on the new streaming service that has runs wth various characters in NY.  You could do the Netflix characters, Spider-man (yes - I know - but I'm talking about storylines not appropriate for a big screen that they want to tell and can film quckly), Moon Knight, etc...  You could tell Damage Control stories.  You could bring back minor characters from Agents of Shield or a movie (Abomination returns to Harlem?). 

I suspect Netflix are confident enough in their product by now not to be afraid of people dropping subs for this.

They've had 13 seasons. A pretty good run all in all.

Nice article from Mark Hughes over at Forbes on the cancellations.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes ... 7364d7196c

In short, it has nothing to do with ratings, and everything to do with Disney's new streaming service (surprise surprise). Even if Disney is not playing hardball, the execs at Netflix know there is no way they are going to be able to compete with the Mouse here, especially if they are going to have to go head to head with MCU versions of the characters, plus the fact that they won't get any more. Jessica Jones and Punisher will go out after their upcoming seasons.

He does make an interesting final point about the fans. He suspects that there is a strong overlap between "Folks who like Marvel shows" and "Folks who can't live without Netflix." Basically, they don't expect to lose many subs due to this.

I'll add my own editorial point and say I hope Disney sends Netflix a nice fruit basket and thank you card for test marketing their IP for them...

Aside from that overlap, Netflix is cheap as fuck, I doubt they lose many subs when anything ends

I expect they are far better served by continually rolling out new stuff that encourages different people to try the platform for the first time.

It's this. They have so many people making shows that don't or won't get bought by networks or even cable, they aren't going to suffer too much for losing these shows.

And much of what they produce is quite good, or at least good enough for me that I won't soon lack for any content.

Still, I lament the loss of MCU on Netflix.  Even at its low points, it is still decently produced super hero fun.  I want to say that Disney can go fuck itself with its streaming service and that I will never buy it, but then it occurred to me that the live action Star Wars stuff will end up there as well.  So I suppose the more honest truth is that it depends just how much good original content Disney puts up there.  I could give zero fucks about the movie licenses, it is the serial content that matters to me.

Netflix is worth keeping for their in house productions, in my opinion. They have a lot of decent horror stuff you wouldn't otherwise see. That alone sells it for me. The kid stuff and wife tv are just gravy.

I think it almost inevitable that I'll end up subscribed to Disney-flix.

Anyone with a family is practically guaranteed to get value from it.

They, and maybe HBO, are the only content producers that get a pass on having their own subscription platform.

Everyone else, on Netflix or it doesn't exist.

I sorta want to agree regarding HBO, but I am an on/off subscriber for them.  I just think they need more content in general for a full time sub, which I believe costs more or less the same as Netflix around these parts.

Half my Netflix viewing lately has been foreign stuff: Hotel Beau Séjour out of Belgium, Transfers from France, 3% from Brazil - all quality entertainment.

We have Netflix and Hulu; if we decide to get Disneyflix, one of those is getting the axe. I generally prefer Netflix for their original content; Hulu is better for TV shows and the wife watches more there.

Yeah, Netflix turning hard into being a global platform for globally made entertainment was a really smart move.  Lot of good foreign made stuff on there now, and its going to win them a lot of money from outside the US.

The biggest problem Netflix has is that a lot of great stuff is buried where mst people will not find it.  They need to improve their recommendations so that I do not need to find out about a great series here.

Or they can just fix their shitty UI.

That would be swell.

The thing about recommendations is they are never likely to work in any family setting where (purely as a hypothetical example) someone's wife will watch literally any bullshit set between 1600 and 1900 or any show that involves a hospital.

Don't tell me about the 'who's watching' thing. No humans use that shit.

I tend to like Netflix's UI for when I already know what I want to watch and/or I want pickup something I have been watching very recently.  In all other cases, finding new stuff or going back to old stuff when a new season comes out or whatever....yeah, it leaves something to be desired to say the least.  If for no other reason than huge icons taking up so much real estate that you have to page through all manner of shit, and leaving only enough room for recommendations and stuff you've watched already.

It is also fucking miles better than HBO's.  Their shit can't even figure out where I left off from my last viewing.

You guys don't use separate profiles? Even my kids each have their own, so that the boy's Pokemon doesn't crowd the daughter's Liv & Maddie and vice versa.

The latest data from those Parrot Poop guys now claim Daredevil was something like the fourth most highest streamed show during it's first week for so, so even if the total numbers had dropped off the demand was still high.

So yes, it really does seem that any discussion of ratings or disagreements on the set are completely beside the point -- they were getting axed regardless. This does give me some hope that Disney might just license the shows over mostly intact. At this point Charlie Cox is Daredevil, and I would say the same for pretty much all the leads on all the shows.

As for the profiles discussion, I take that a step further and everybody in this house has their own machine. Keeps everything nice and tidy that way.

As far as Netflix profiles, the Netflix channel on some of the older versions of the Roku hardware didn't actually recognize user profiles, so everybody on the account contributes to the recommendations on that box.

But yes, Netflix's UI is garbage.

Me a few weeks ago: Netflix cutting marvel content from their platform is due to fallout from Disney
F13: wtf your talking about, its because iron fist and luke cage were under performing.

A few weeks later Netflix cancels Daredevil

F13: Well fuck, i guess that new exclusive Disney streaming service is having an affect on netflix after all
Me: :awesome_for_real:

The fuck are you talking about?

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=24609.msg1506467#msg1506467

And now look up several posts on that same page where both Cyrrex and satael mentioned Disney's streaming service even before you did, and the post directly beneath yours where Draegan mentions that Disney "are going to want all Disney/Marvel properties on their platform.". Nobody responded to your post let alone disagreed with it.

pssst, it's in his sig.  It's right there.

The sign of Slog.

Honestly, I don't think he was intentionally trying to troll. I think he's genuinely proud of himself for connecting the same three dots (Disney starts talking more about streaming service, announces MCU shows with actual MCU characters, Netflix starts canceling Marvel shows) that everybody else pretty much automatically connected.

Naw I remembered the conversation differently than what happened, I haven't looked at this forum in like 2 months soo  :why_so_serious:

So fuck off then, yeah?

You never know, but medium high does seem to accidentally make a lot of troll posts for someone with that signature.

You can take the troll out of 4chan, but you can't take 4chan out of the troll.

Well, are "I'm Right!" posts automatically trolling?

I mean, if I bragged that I was completely right about the ship's name Milano never being spoken in the second Guardians of the Galaxy, plus the ship was totally destroyed by the end of the movie (they had a new ship in Infinity War -- called Benetar by the way), would that be trolling?

 :why_so_serious:

I wonder if ABC has an option to pick up Daredevil, etc...?  ABC Studios does produce these shows. 

I could see ABC making a Marvel: Heroes for Hire show that picks up the threads of all the Netflix discarded shows... keeping the good and writing out the bad quickly. 

You have a much higher opinion of Network television than.... anybody, apparently.

I didn't say it would be good. Just that I could see them doing it.

I could also see the Summer 2020 season of MAoS move their operations to New York.

ABC TV is not going to put any of the Netflix shows on TV. Those shows are clearly too "mature audiences" for network.

Yeah, that.  The Netflix stuff came about because somebody wanted to do an R rated take on Marvel stuff.  So they grabbed the gritty street level heroes nobody cared about and had fun.

You can only do that on Netflix streaming type services, or HBO.  This is not something that could ever air on Network TV, and none of them would spend the money on it.

That is fucking ridiculous. 

There are a lot of 10 PM shows that are as violent as these shows and handle a variety of maure topics.  They could do these shows, nearly without change (other than run time) at 10 PM.  Further, they can take certain things down a notch while continuing these stories in the 8 PM hour.  Even Jessica Jones.

Crimany.  You act like we're still in 1984 broadcast tv land.   

Netflix said when they announced the cancellation that "the three existing seasons will remain on the service for years to come". With that being the case I can't see Disney/Marvel going too far out of their way to make any new content featuring this version of Daredevil. If nothing else it would be nice if they could work out a way to do another, smaller Defenders miniseries so they could bring some closure to the characters, but honestly I don't see Disney going through the effort (maybe if the last seasons of Punisher and Jessica Jones just completely knock it out of the park).

Apparently, nobody can use these characters until 2 years after cancellation under the contracts, so it is a moot point until late 2020 at the earliest without some accomodation to Netflix.  However, it is something that apparently will be discussed at Disney Streaming: https://www.gamespot.com/amp-articles/daredevil-luke-cage-and-more-may-migrate-to-disney/1100-6464080/ (https://www.gamespot.com/amp-articles/daredevil-luke-cage-and-more-may-migrate-to-disney/1100-6464080/)

Wow, that may have been the most nothing story ever posted.

Disney Exec: Yeah, we've talked about it but there's nothing to announce.

DUH?

On a 'you know, thread related note' I watched season 3.

It was good.

Saying it is on the table means it is not off the table - which was a distinct possibility. Many were assuming these characters were indefinitely shelved. 

At this point, I'd almost be surprised not to see this Kingpin in a Spider-man property in the next 4 years.

I'm not sure everyone in this thread understands what 'indefinitely' means.

Because these characters are quite literally 'indefinitely' shelved.

Yeah. "Indefinitely" simply means: until something definitive. Definitive could be 'tomorrow we decide to make a new Defenders on Disney'.

So, uhh...bump...

https://variety.com/2022/tv/news/daredevil-disney-plus-series-matt-corman-chris-ord-1235272299/

Looks like it's coming back, though no word on casting.

If it doesn't contain most of the original cast...well, good luck with that.

Yeah, I really hope they don't do something stupid like try to start over from scratch with this one. Take the good parts of the 3 seasons and say the rest (i.e. anything to do with Iron Fist) was in a different universe.

They just had Charlie Cox in the latest Spiderman, so I don't see why they would recast him. And Fisk was in one of the D+ shows too IIRC. Presumably they'd keep Foggie and Deborah Ann Woll, too.

I think the only question is whether they're going to recast the less important parts and whether they're going to chuck out some of what happened in the Netflix series (the Defenders team-up, Elektra, the Punisher, etc.)

I'm kind of thinking yes, they will? E.g., Daredevil will still have fought D'Onfrio's Kingpin, the basic contours of the characterizations on the show will hold, but the specifics will be scrubbed somewhat. As they probably should be.

I think everything that wasn't in the 3 seasons is a fever dream that didn't actually happen. Maybe they rehabilitate JJ, but Iron Fist is all bullshit.

--Dave

1. daredevil was in spiderman and wasn't some weird multiversal nonsense
2. daredevil netflix was a dc show

ok apparently rumor is it's a continuation, which is great, maybe they'll make it watchable (lol)

REALLY hope they bring Jon Bernthal into the MCU/D+ lineup. He defined the Punisher, hard act to follow. I'd also like to see Luke and Misty again.

I love Iron Fist the character, so I hope like hell they recast him. I didn't hate the actor, so maybe with better writing and direction? Either way, I want Heroes for Hire on D+ and I want it to be the avenue they use to bring in Ryan Reynolds  :drillf: (starting the MCU run as Deadpimp would be so perfect).

I would not at all object to Luke Cage being canon and the character/actor showing up. Same for Jessica Jones. I would just as soon they not only recast Iron Fist but rethink it, because Shang Chi crowded in on that territory some.

If they're going to do a Disney Plus Daredevil, I REALLY want an episode with Spider-Man reconfigured as a street-level hero, maybe with the Kingpin as the main bad guy. Spidey is much better as a ground-level New York guy who occasionally gets crossed into shit like Thanos rather than a guy who does Thanos stuff and occasionally gets involved in neighborhood business.

what a gross waste of tony stark jr

I thought Iron Fist sucked, and yet at the same time David Wenham as Harold Meachum was incredible and incredibly fun to watch as he unwound.  Also, I hope if they are going to resurrect/continue these shows they pull in Carrie-Ann Moss, she's also so very good.  ... jesus christ I'm looking at the Iron Fist cast and there are so many very talented people it's a crime that this script wasn't even a little bit better (or maybe it was the direction?  I have no idea, but I don't know how they made these folks look bad).

I have no point, just needed to say that.

I agree with Khaldun and Schild. Peter Parker should stay Tom Holland for a long time and he should be Tony Jr for MCU purposes. It's ok to let Iron Man rest for a cycle and use the Iron Spider, War Machine, whatever. Street level Spidey should be Miles and would be awesome with the Heroes for Hire. I'd also love to see the Superior Spiderman as a D+ series, Ock as Spidey was sofa king good in the comics, but I digress...

I think that in the right hands, the Hells Kitchen level stuff still has a ton of good stories to mine while the rest of the multiverse is fighting itself. Give some perspective to the bigger films and series. Hawkeye was a refreshing change of pace for exactly that reason.

It was hilarious in Marvel Heroes too, the first time I picked up an item and his line was "if I was a villain they'd call this looting" I lost it.

Rumors circulating that Jessica Jones is out for the new DD series (due to scheduling, so not out for a return sometime), and Bernthal's Punisher is in. I'm happy, as I didn't like JJ at all (I know she was popular here though), and I loved the Punisher stuff (Muldaaawny!!). But it sounds like you guys will get her back at some point.

Also, sounds like Colter won't be back as Luke Cage, which really sucks as he was awesome imo. That first season with Ali as the bad guy was one of my favorite Netflix-era Marvel things. Haven't heard anything about Iron Fist at all, so not sure if Cage will be recast or left off for a later reboot of Heroes for Hire.

Other rumors are that this is not a sequel show, but a reboot. Soft or hard, no idea.

All very tentative sounding rumors, so not linking sketchy sources.

I think punisher is the easiest of the other Netflix characters to work with as something other than main character. And the last thing they should do is fill it with all the defenders characters.

Wait what?

They aren't going to scrub anything. But equally they aren't going to wate time talking about it.

having now seen the shehulk episode about daredevil, they can do whatever the fuck they want with him and it'll be better than netflix

Ritter and Colter being out makes sense. Kristen Ritter is in the Orphan Black sequel show and Colter is busy with the Evil show which just got renewed again. I actually like him much, much more in Evil than I did as Luke Cage. He felt super arrogant as Luke Cage though that may have simply been the character as I never read his comics. (or Jessica Jones for that matter.)

Cage in the comics has ranged somewhat from being a one-note blaxploitation cliche to being a bit more layered, but in any rendition, he's confident don't-fuck-with-me. This is the dude who flew to Latveria to collect a small fee he was owed for work he did for Doctor Doom and proceeded to fuck up Doom's shit until he got paid off.

200 bucks is 200 bucks.

Fuck yeah, the real Frank is coming back!

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/daredevil-born-again-casts-jon-bernthal-punisher-1235342229/

Hopefully he gets his own show, though I don't really see Disney going in that direction.

MULDAAAWNY

I know he's busy but I hope they can get Mike Colter, he was absolutely perfect as Luke Cage.

He really was.

I hope they just completely forget that Iron Fist ever existed. I am 100% in favor of an approach to continuity that stuffs shit that was no good down a murderhole and embraces what works.

They could just recast Iron Fist. Or at least bring back Jessica Henwick.

Deborah Ann Wohl and the guy who played Foggy aren't coming back. This actually makes me less interested in this new Daredevil if I'm honest. Particularly the absence of Deborah.

Yea, agreed. It's going to be weird without them, and I'm not sure why Disney couldn't throw enough money to get them back.

I'm sure we'll get a better idea when the series launches but I'm guessing the reasoning is that they don't want to make this a direct follow-up to the Netflix shows. Sounds like they're happy to bring back some of the leads (there's but a lot of rumors about Ritter returning as Jessica Jones) but I don't think they're going to acknowledge those shows as canon. That's easier to get away with if you aren't bringing back all the supporting casts.

There have been times in Dardevil's career where neither character was a part of the regular cast, so it's not vital that they return. I do think it's a shame though, because I thought the casting on those two was quite good.

Yeah, I liked both of them in their roles. It just seems like the assignment was to make Season 1 of the MCU Daredevil show very clearly not make season 4 of the Netflix Daredevil show. That also seems somewhat backed up by the way Matt is portrayed in his She-Hulk appearance.

Also once they explicitly acknowledge any of the Marvel TV stuff as canon, they'll get bogged down in having to specify what is and what isn't and I don't think they want to bother with that. At this point it's just "We liked what these guys did as Daredevil, Kingpin, and Punisher and brought them back as different versions of the same characters".

I don't see how the netflix shows are not canon.

I'd really rather they don't get into giving a crap about what is and isn't canon. But I can't see how you bring back Cox and then say this is a different daredevil.

Everything is canon when you introduce a multiverse.

The netflix shows wouldn't be canon because Feige didn't have control over the Marvel TV stuff, and it had a bunch of crap like Inhumans shoehorned in. On D+ none of it is listed in with the MCU categories. The Netflix shows have a separate listing called The Defenders Saga and everything else like Runaways, Agent Carter, and Agents of Shield shows up under Marvel Series and Specials.

They seem perfectly happy to find ways to bring in stuff that they liked (James D'Arcy as Jarvis in Endgame, Anson Mount as Black Bolt and Patrick Stewart as Prof. X in Multiverse of Madness, working Deadpool into the MCU somehow), but it seems pretty clear at this point that they don't intend on bringing all of it.

Man, what did she do that got her blackballed by the industry? Just fucking odd that she doesn't seem to get any work.

The Heroes for Hire duo, DD, Punisher, JJ, and Defenders were Netflix. Agent Carter and AoS were ABC properties. Afaik most if not all the Inhuman stuff was kept in AoS?

NYC Defenders could be awesome, bring in Blade and Strange...I gotta go back and finish Midnight Suns....

Sure, there was stuff on Netflix, ABC, Hulu, and Freeform, but it was all made by Marvel TV rather than Marvel Studios. They could come out and say that just the Netflix stuff is canon (to date they’ve pretty much declined to say anything) but even that saddles them with stuff like Iron Fist and probably a number of other characters they’d prefer to redo. Even the actual tone of Daredevil himself it seems like they want to change a bit.

I would love it if they'd build a "street-level" tier in the MCU universe but they've already got the same problem that the two major superhero universes have. Like, ok, Batman is up against it because Bane has broken open Arkham Asylum--he's exahusted, at the edge of death, and he doesn't call in all his pals because why? DC once tried to address this when Gotham got cut off after an earthquake and the US declared it no longer part of the US--the Justice League spent all their time keeping supervillains from invading it, so only Batman was left to deal with shit inside Gotham. Come on.

I get that Captain Marvel isn't going to be available to turn the Kingpin into a burned-out crisp but it's still going to be hard to figure out why DD and Spider-Man can't put in a ring to Captain America, She-Hulk and Valkyrie if they're up against something more than thugs with guns.

The schilds of the world already get annoyed that Iron Man didn't show up in Captain America and the Winter Soldier to just solve the whole movie for Cap.

Everyone else just accepts that the other heroes are busy with their own shit at the time and this isn't their movie/show. Worrying about it is like worrying about every natural law most superpowers violate, or how inconsistent their power levels can be, or how even normal superheroes seem to recover from injury so quickly.

(https://i.imgur.com/SlMnILW.png)

I think the point is that if you're going to do street-level, you need to do one of four things:

a) characters who really don't play well with the powerful dudley do-rights (aka Punisher)  because they're willing to do things that other folks won't do (aka Clint Barton murdering half the world's crime bosses)
b) characters who don't play well with other children generally because that is just the way they are (Moon Knight, Blade) or have some other reason for avoiding other people (post-spell Spider-Man)
c) characters who are honestly dealing with shit that is so local (if meaningful) that it's genuinely a bad idea to call in a god or a national symbol to get involved--e.g. street-level heroes need street-level enemies.
d) characters who have such an ego/obsession going on with the sitch they're dealing with that they don't call anyone else in because it's THEIR PROBLEM. (This is basically Batman most of the time.)

All it takes is that you stick to those constraints. But the moment you've got Daredevil dealing with a threat to take over the entire world or whatever, that's when you lose the street-level thing.

Thanks to the multiverse, they can absolutely pick and choose what they want to have in MCU canon from Daredevil. Or they can just not explain it, and just assume that whoever shows up in MCU shows is now canon. It's comic books. Most of the regular fans won't give a shit (me included) and normal people really won't give a shit.

Just never explain it is definitely the right play here.

Trying to explain every little detail of every little thing is one of the things that kills comics/scifi/fantasy writing, IMO. I'm all about having a complete story that ties up most of the threads well, but goddamn. I do not need a story explaining why Iron Fist isn't even mentioned in the modern MCU. After all, I watched it - no explanation needed. Just bring Coleen Wing back and I'm good.

I could be there for some cameo of Ser Loras and Ward still just fucking around in bars in the far east somewhere.

I can't agree more. Every time a franchise tries to explain something it ends up making it worse:

Star Wars: Midi-chlorians
Alien: The space jockey was just a tall, pale, bald dude.
Willy Wonka: Willy Wonka's dad was a mean dentist.

Obviously you want to avoid plot holes but I don't need to know that Captain Kirk is like he is because his step brother was mean to him or something. This is the number one reason I am usually leery of prequels, they seem to be made to explain stuff and remove all intrigue and mystery from the previous movies and/or books. In this case, if they have to explain Iron Fist or whoever at all, I don't need anymore than a quick line in an episode. "Oh, he's off punching people in the face in LA now."

I'm still hoping for a season of 70s blaxploitation Heroes for Hire with Deadpimp guesting.

Part of the problem is that bad screenwriters and showrunners think that adding is the same thing as reinterpreting. Which it's not. To really reinterpret or reboot something, you gotta dig deep into the premise and say "nothing is quite what it seems". Alan Moore did one of the best examples of that when he wrote Swamp Thing. He didn't add a new complication, he said "everything you think you know about this character is wrong" and man, it worked. You can't do that without going really really all in on what you're doing.

You *can* add too in ways that are great but those additions need to be about something you didn't realize you needed to know but once you see them you realize you did. So Daredevil is a great example: for years and years in the comics, he just was this smart kid who was also pretty fit--admiring his boxer dad, somewhat secretively--and then he has a Superhero Accident and acquires supersenses (while losing his sight). Somehow he just trains up to be a fighter, he designs himself a billy club, and fights crime and super-villains. While also being a lawyer. But Frank Miller and a few other writers started thinking: wait, how did he learn to cope with blindness + supersenses? And fight so well? So that's where Stick came in, that's where Elektra came in, etc. and it all worked beautifully because it fit. It not only made sense, it made the character make sense.

At some point, you hit a limit of how much you can add that way. Comic book writers are more tempted than they should be because they are mostly forbidden to go in the other direction, which is to add meaningful things to the characters' lives by having new things happen to them.

Or, hear me out...we could also:

(https://retconpunchdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/dpool12_halftone21.jpg)