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f13.net General Forums => Guild Wars 2 => Topic started by: Kageru on July 10, 2013, 06:34:30 AM



Title: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Kageru on July 10, 2013, 06:34:30 AM
They seem to have given up on the world events. Thankfully. They probably should have seen that wasn't going to work on the drawing board but I guess they had to learn it the hard way.

What they seem to be moving towards is progression via achievements. Limited time events that have a bundle of (often pretty damn grindy) activities and maybe some progressive story behind it. Collect enough tokens or tick off enough activities and you get to see more stories and get titles, achievement points and skins. And people will put a surprising amount of effort into skins they probably won't use. MMO's are all about wasting time on some imaginary goal anyway, and the raiders who focus on gear progression aren't playing GW2 so don't have to consider them too much. And now with the latest patch the achievement points you gain unlock rewards and account upgrades plus can be tracked as goals for completionists.

Oddly, I don't really mind it. A bit of new content, some visits to old content and a bunch of stuff I can ignore if I don't care enough. It's quite an interesting model. You can see them trying to patch in discoverability, slowly and badly, because at the moment I suspect most people need an external web-site to decode what has actually changed in the world.

Here's a summary (http://"http://dulfy.net/2013/07/08/gw2-bazaar-of-the-four-winds-patch-overview/") for those who are not playing but want to see what I'm talking about.

(Edit)

An entire zone based around movement powers that replace your skills bar and jumping puzzles... As one Guild member said some of these zones are like them over compensating for all the complaints about no jumping in GW1. Pretty zone though, their world builders and texture artists are pretty good. Or they're using this to beta-test content that will be in the next expac.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Ingmar on July 10, 2013, 01:36:50 PM
I think the time-limited content is an awful idea. Recurring stuff is fine, and I don't really care about time-limited rewards as such, but the living story is pretty obnoxious, and seems like a waste of their time as well. Why spend development hours on something people will only be able to use for a short time? Why *not* make it available permanently? Most of the stuff happens in instanced missions anyway.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Numtini on July 10, 2013, 02:13:17 PM
I guess I just don't get it. They're not charging for this content. They're not going to do expansions. Are cash shop purchases really bringing in enough revenue to do new expansions and toss them away a few weeks later?


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Zetor on July 10, 2013, 02:30:15 PM
I think they're planning to turn either the aetherblade or the molten dungeon into a fractal, which is a start -- I think both of those dungeons were pretty great, myself.

Otherwise... eh. I guess they want everyone to keep logging in (and spend $ in the cash shop on the shiny-skins-de-jour) week after week, or feel that they're missing out. Is it working out for them? Who knows.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Ingmar on July 10, 2013, 02:37:22 PM
It acts as a negative incentive to me, I log in every once in a while, find that I'm halfway through some event that I can't finish in the time I have left, get annoyed, and log out. Maybe that's just a me thing, but it feels like it disincentivizes people who aren't playing it as their primary game.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Zetor on July 10, 2013, 03:25:25 PM
I agree -- it annoys me as well, and I'm currently playing GW2 as my main game. It hasn't been a big problem in the previous living story bits, since the meta-achievement was achievable with an afternoon's worth of playtime, and that provided a sense of closure. The Sky Pirates / Aetherblade event was where they changed it up a bit, as you pretty much had to do several jumping puzzles for the caches... meaning that you had to put in at least several days worth of effort (unless a mesmer was porting or you knew exactly how to do the JPs). The alternative (farming slowly respawning aetherblade mobs near the chests) was pretty heavily in fuck-that-noise territory for me.

The newest event cranks that up to 11. You NEED to do jumping puzzles to get the meta this time, and the zone itself is a (well-crafted, but still) jumping puzzle. The mario kart minigame is fun the first few times, but it's seriously annoying to play with any kind of latency (I play on US servers from Europe... ugh) and having to do 25 matches for the achievement is 3 hours of minigame time right there. Of course if you spread it out through a month it's not as bad, but... yeah.

Speaking of which, I actually think parts of the current event (the bazaar) will be recurring, considering how much the mario kart-like minigame resembles rollerbeetle racing in GW1. I seriously doubt they'll just throw away all this work for nothing.

So yeah. The content itself is fun, they've done a lot of great improvements to the game for free, and I dig the new achievement reward system. But when GW2 stops being my primary game, this 1-month content rotation is going to be a huge pain...


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Kageru on July 10, 2013, 04:45:54 PM

I'm not really sure on the psychology of the limited time content. But I consider it as an improvement on their original plan of "it happened once, shame you missed it" for world events. And it does provide a sense of urgency and focus on the content. I notice warframe has pretty much been doing the same thing with timed events giving unique in game items.

As I mentioned the other possibility is they are using these events to test new mechanics or zones that will become permanent as part of a content expansion. That was their GW1 model. They certainly are learning some lessons on better sign-posting the events such that you get fairly specific e-mails with a button to show it on the map.



Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Dark_MadMax on July 10, 2013, 05:18:38 PM
I get their angle on time limited content but I am not entirely happy . GW2 achievements are very grindy so I dont care for that anymore , what I do care though is that some of their good content only available for a month. If you miss it - well its gone...

 I just missed sky pirates dungeon entirely :(


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Threash on July 10, 2013, 05:47:50 PM
The sky pirate stuff wasn't around for anywhere near a month, couple weeks tops.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Tyrnan on July 10, 2013, 06:56:26 PM
Didn't they announce recently (before sky pirates I think) that they were switching to a 2 week update schedule?

Edit: the announcement (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/living-world-in-guild-wars-2/) was more recent than I thought but yeah, updates every 2 weeks from now on


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Nevermore on July 10, 2013, 07:13:19 PM
Non-recurring, expiring content is a terrible idea if you ask me.  It just screws people who might only want to play occasionally.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Threash on July 10, 2013, 07:21:56 PM
Not just that, it's just a huge waste of resources.  It has to take a fuckton longer than 2 weeks to make the content they are rolling out and then throwing away.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Setanta on July 10, 2013, 08:39:32 PM
Aussie latancy + a hatred of jumping puzzles - for the first time in 3 months I played for 40 min and logged out totally dissatisfied with the game.

Why the hell did they gate the area behind a jumping puzzle ffs.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Kageru on July 10, 2013, 10:56:51 PM

Yeah, more fun if you are a Norn too.. and the camera is ditzy. But Wildstar is picking it up as a good thing.

I don't really understand the economics of it. I guess their tools and asset pool might be large so it's not as expensive as it looks, or they have some plan for re-use in part or in whole.

But I think the psychology is they want you to stay active. Once people drift off from the game it's not easy to get them back. And if it's not timed content there's no incentive to keep active. Same reason warframe or PS2 will give you benefits if you log in regularly. I assume they also figure activity is a pre-requisite for people to notice the latest specials on the cash shop.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Zetor on July 11, 2013, 03:15:10 AM
Aussie latancy + a hatred of jumping puzzles - for the first time in 3 months I played for 40 min and logged out totally dissatisfied with the game.

Why the hell did they gate the area behind a jumping puzzle ffs.
Pretty much this. I play from Europe on a US server (because I'm in an international guild and apparently the GW1 approach with US/EU district switching is too hard to implement or something) and play with 500+ ping all the time. This is actually OK in pve and wvw, annoying-but-manageable in spvp (esp since I play a less twitchy build there), but a massive pain with all the high-speed movement skills in this new zone.

I *did* end up getting 40 air crystals, but the last 3 were... not very fun to get at all. I must have spent at least 5 hours on it total (1 hr on those last 3), and the novelty wore off after the second hour or so. I imagine it's a lot more enjoyable if you don't rubberband, your skills actually fire when you use them [!], and the lightning grapple actually moves you to where you aim it at (which was the case in all the videos I watched, but even if I did the same exact things, I'd either end up overshooting or undershooting the same spot. Gee, what fun.)

Sanctum Sprint is even worse. It's really fun getting knocked back by invisible bombs, the jump ability not firing at all, being slowed down by the waterfall even though I hit the light dash ability a second ago, and the 'anchored' lightning grapple ability misfiring, causing me to fall to my death. I did 25 laps for the achievement, and I'm pretty sure I'm never going back there again.

/angryface

That said, the REST of the game has improved a lot. In this particular patch, the new Celestial stuff and the various scepter / staff improvements for my ele are pretty great, as are all the achievement rewards (btw, they ninja-buffed the GW1 HOM rewards achievement-point-wise which bumped me over 5k, yay!).


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: March on July 11, 2013, 08:20:20 AM
It acts as a negative incentive to me, I log in every once in a while, find that I'm halfway through some event that I can't finish in the time I have left, get annoyed, and log out. Maybe that's just a me thing, but it feels like it disincentivizes people who aren't playing it as their primary game.
Same with me... I always feel lost with GW2.  Shame because it was the very best levelling game I've played.  The other head-scratcher is why after almost 1-yr there is nothing on the cash shop for new armor/weapon skins.  The itch this game scratched was exploring... why they seem to think that compressing that into a short window coupled with jumping puzzles is a path to victory, I just don't understand.  The good news is that it costs me nothing to not play; the bad news is that I gave Rift money because their cash shop actually pulls you in and catches you up.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Modern Angel on July 11, 2013, 08:25:50 AM
There are weapons and armor on the cash shop. They just tend to be time-limited as well. Exclusivity of your look is what the game is about and that's in keeping with it.

I dunno. I don't really mind the timed content. It makes the world feel like it's in motion. There are only really two ways to do that (and no, instanced content isn't one of them): player generated sandboxy shit or very large, very temporary creator generated events. We know how the former turns out; if that's your bag, sweet, it's not for a lot of people and other games are already doing it. But nobody's doing the latter other than Anet. So far I'm good with it. I'm willing to bet pops would be a lot lower without it, too.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Crumbs on July 11, 2013, 05:15:23 PM
These events I can take or leave.  Mostly leave.  I thought the Halloween event was the best so far, with a good short dungeon and insanely fun labyrinth instance.  For the most part, events have just meant a dozen stacks of 250 items (Zhaitaffy?) that I don't feel like spending on anything and aren't worth much on the ah. 

To me, the best part of expansions have always been new races and new classes.  If there won't be any Xpacs in GW2, will they ever have new races and professions?  If so, how will they roll out?


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Kageru on July 11, 2013, 05:31:55 PM

Why would you expect there not to be xpacs? That was their model in GW1 and they're spending a lot of money on content... though I would not be surprised if the cash shop is fairly lucrative.

Interestingly the latest event consumes any zhaitaffy you have, there is a vendor in the new zone that accepts it in exchange for a supply chest.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Crumbs on July 11, 2013, 06:19:49 PM

Why would you expect there not to be xpacs?

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/GW2-unlikely-to-get-expansions-Interview

Not set in stone I suppose, but they seem to be considering these frequent content updates as alternatives to Xpacs.

Thanks for the heads up on Zhaitaffy, I will check that out for sure.  Vendor in the new zone?


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Kageru on July 11, 2013, 07:16:23 PM
Yes, It's near the "important vendors" you need for the achievement.

That article is interesting. I guess the subtext is they're actually making some good money out of the cash shop. Given that putting out a substantial flow of content to keep people engaged probably is part of keeping that going.

I'm sort of saddened though. The idea of these small teams and short cycles is good but having another team working on a major new content in terms of land-mass and mechanics would also be nice. I'm not sure you can really do that without substantial time and I'd be happy to pay money for that. Though I guess it's not like GW2 is short of landmass to play with and they have added new zones.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: MediumHigh on July 11, 2013, 09:10:11 PM
Its ArenaNets way to silently work on a major expansion until its good and ready to be live while the small teams keeps the playerbase happy.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Modern Angel on July 12, 2013, 08:28:41 AM
Yeah, they'll come out with an expansion. They're just yakking. Expansions push boxes.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Crumbs on July 12, 2013, 08:53:44 AM
The RNG sales might be enough though.  Maybe the rest of us can benefit, and for those still buying chests I offer this:

(http://cnnfn.com/1998/05/08/investing/q_gambling/questions.jpg)



Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Kageru on July 12, 2013, 06:56:53 PM

Don't cure them! they're funding the game for me :)


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Modern Angel on July 13, 2013, 10:52:40 AM
I did the RNG chests for the Halloween event. Got the staff skin. Sold it for 20 gold or so. Decided to keep going. Ended up losing money when it was all done with. Never did it again.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Ingmar on July 13, 2013, 05:19:48 PM
That scythe staff skin sells for a lot more than 20 now.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Crumbs on July 14, 2013, 12:04:13 PM

Don't cure them! they're funding the game for me :)


Yea pretty much, I hate to say it but this could be a great thing for those of us who skip the gambling games.  Maybe one day they'll just patch in new races, profs and character slots.  Here ya go...BTW new items in Gem Store!


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Modern Angel on July 14, 2013, 05:54:49 PM
That scythe staff skin sells for a lot more than 20 now.

I am very, very, very aware.  :heartbreak:


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Ingmar on July 16, 2013, 01:06:08 PM
I'm still hanging onto the one I got, I should probably sell it before it gets too close to Halloween.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: murdoc on July 18, 2013, 08:56:31 AM
I sold mine for 22g, but it pretty much paid for all my level 80 gear on my warrior at the time so I was happy enough with that.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Threash on July 18, 2013, 01:01:09 PM
Stuff coming up (https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-guild-wars-2-in-2013/)


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: kildorn on July 19, 2013, 10:12:00 AM
Quote
Champion Rewards
Champions in the game will be updated so each will always drop a guaranteed reward box for any player that qualifies for a reward from the boss. This chest will contain things like crafting materials, skill points, unique skins, lodestones, and more. This change will make champions more rewarding, and will make playing in Orr and Southsun Cove (where events can scale up to add champions) more exciting and fruitful for guilds and players joining together in the open world.

.. THANK YOU. Christ, was that so hard, ANet?

Also, hesitant on the removal of Magic Find as a gear stat. Need more data on the replacement system to know if it's going to be annoying or not. Overall it looks like a solid direction for the game. I'm kind of happy with ascended gear going crafted.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Threash on July 19, 2013, 10:21:50 AM
Magic find as an item stat is a horrible idea, whatever system they come up with has to be better than having to give up combat effectiveness for loot.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Fordel on July 19, 2013, 03:01:55 PM
Agreed. Magic find is dumb.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: kildorn on July 19, 2013, 06:28:34 PM
I'm happy it's going away. I fear change and how exactly you obtain the new account boosts. So far the "salvage greens and blues for them" seems fine as long as it's not some 0.00001% chance thing.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Sjofn on July 19, 2013, 07:21:40 PM
I have confidence it's some horrible grind that will result in me not bothering.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Kageru on July 19, 2013, 07:39:42 PM
I salvage blues and greens just to keep my inventory under control, so if it's a side effect of that then fine. If it means I never need to feel any temptation to carry and armor-find set around then fantastic.

That said I think A-net are realising that their market (the non raid progression players) actually quite like having some sort of grind to keep them busy. I'm pretty sure crafting to 500 will be part of that. Also the growth of "daily" resources like the current event reward.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Fordel on July 19, 2013, 08:18:56 PM
I am pretty much the worst about gathering, crafting and salvaging.

If it doesn't immediately get dumped into my crafting vault with that command from the inventory screen, it gets vendored.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Threash on July 20, 2013, 09:12:56 AM
ATM it makes a lot more sense to vendor blues and greens than to salvage them so you are doing the right thing.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: EWSpider on July 20, 2013, 12:53:08 PM
ATM it makes a lot more sense to vendor blues and greens than to salvage them so you are doing the right thing.

I don't often take the time to do this myself, but you can auction a lot of greens for increased profit as well.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Sjofn on July 20, 2013, 03:46:31 PM
Yeah I glance at the AH to see if the greens'll sell. Otherwise I crush pretty much everything, because I like crafting, because I am weird.

Speaking of the AH, though, I still can't fucking believe I can't sort my armor searches by type.  :uhrr:


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: EWSpider on July 20, 2013, 04:06:39 PM
Yeah I glance at the AH to see if the greens'll sell. Otherwise I crush pretty much everything, because I like crafting, because I am weird.

Speaking of the AH, though, I still can't fucking believe I can't sort my armor searches by type.  :uhrr:

This boggles my mind as well.  If I'm looking for Medium Armor I don't even want to see fucking Light or Heavy armor.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Zetor on July 20, 2013, 04:08:08 PM
Yeah, salvaging can be annoying. It's not unlike GW1 in a few ways (only in GW1 you had to identify every level 20+ junk-quality item drop before vendoring them to maximize profit, which was kind of stupid).

My rules of thumb are basically
- salvage item, white item: salvage with the cheapest kit
- blue/green item: vendor
- yellow level 68+ item: if it's a weapon, check the AH price; if above ~20-25s, AH it, otherwise salvage with the master kit (the yellow one)
- yellow level 80 staff: store in my bank to eventually toss in the mystic toilet for a chance at a precursor  :why_so_serious:
- orange level 68-79 item: check the sigil/rune; if it's worth more than 1g, salvage with black lion kit, otherwise salvage with master kit
- orange level 80 item: if no alts need it, check if it's worth 2g+ on the AH and/or if the sigil/rune in it is worth just as much; sell on AH or salvage with BL/master kit as appropriate


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Sjofn on July 21, 2013, 12:50:19 AM
This boggles my mind as well.  If I'm looking for Medium Armor I don't even want to see fucking Light or Heavy armor.

Exactly! How shitty is your AH UI if I find myself pining for SWTOR's shitty GTN?!


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Kageru on July 21, 2013, 03:53:38 AM

It feels a bit like Arena-net are pretty oblivious and slow on the uptake. No LFG, the AH and the idea of one off world events all should have been blatantly obvious as flaws the moment they were put down on a design spec.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Fordel on July 21, 2013, 06:11:16 AM
Well Anet's always been in their own world with GuildWars and it's success. I am not terribly surprised at some of their missteps.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Yegolev on July 21, 2013, 07:33:10 PM
I went to the airship but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be doing.  I know I haven't played in several months but I don't have any of these currencies.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Tmon on July 22, 2013, 03:35:55 PM
Aussie latancy + a hatred of jumping puzzles - for the first time in 3 months I played for 40 min and logged out totally dissatisfied with the game.

Why the hell did they gate the area behind a jumping puzzle ffs.

I can't figure out the love of jumping puzzles in this game.  I suspect it's a plot to ensure that I personally will never finish any of the content they have created since even map completion has a few of the damn things.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Setanta on July 22, 2013, 04:59:43 PM
Aussie latancy + a hatred of jumping puzzles - for the first time in 3 months I played for 40 min and logged out totally dissatisfied with the game.

Why the hell did they gate the area behind a jumping puzzle ffs.

I can't figure out the love of jumping puzzles in this game.  I suspect it's a plot to ensure that I personally will never finish any of the content they have created since even map completion has a few of the damn things.

http://gw2.mmorpg-life.com/

Good walk-throughs there


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Kageru on July 22, 2013, 05:56:27 PM
I went to the airship but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be doing.  I know I haven't played in several months but I don't have any of these currencies.

They're getting better about sign-posting things, but a long way to go.

Dulfy.net (http://dulfy.net/2013/07/07/bazaar-of-the-four-winds-achievement-guide/) seems to be popular and pretty detailed for seeing what is behind the facade.

They do need to make it visible when the event ends though so people can see if they're going to have time to finish the achievements. And while I hate it I can't deny the power of the timed event. The pressure that if I don't participate I won't get the.... thing, even though I know and hope the thing won't have dramatic gameplay consequences.

That said their world building is still spectacular. This event made me find some hidden jumping puzzles I'd missed entirely and they're lovingly crafted.

I can't figure out the love of jumping puzzles in this game.  I suspect it's a plot to ensure that I personally will never finish any of the content they have created since even map completion has a few of the damn things.

I liked the "overcompensating for no jumping in GW1" line. But in reality I think they're trying to work out how exploration content can still be challenging and this was one of their answers.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Ingmar on July 22, 2013, 06:03:11 PM
Enough crazy misguided people seem to like it that Wildstar is putting them in, too.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Tmon on July 22, 2013, 06:25:24 PM
Walk throughs of jumping puzzles are useless to me, I seem to lack the manual dexterity to complete them.  I suppose I could eventually learn to do them but if I had an desire to do that I probably wouldn't have ignored every platform game since the release of coin op Donkey Kong.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Setanta on July 22, 2013, 06:48:35 PM
Walk throughs of jumping puzzles are useless to me, I seem to lack the manual dexterity to complete them. 

I thought this too, when fractal running I'm always last when it comes to jumping parts - I'm either getting old or my habd-eye coordination is shot. Then I decided I want map completion on at least one character and started doing the red triangle vistas. That set me up for doing jumping puzzles and while I'm still really dysfunctional with jumping, I get a real kick out of achieving some thing I didn't think I could do. My explorer is a Norn, I did get a vanity pack and shrank her as small as I could to fix the camera angles a bit. If I were to do it again, human/sylvari would be my choice as the camera feels right for them.

What made it for me was having an army of alts - when I got tired of a jumping puzzle on my main I'd log and play an alt for a bit and then go back to the half-completed puzzle.

The effort that went into the maps is amazing


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Sjofn on July 22, 2013, 11:25:04 PM
Walk throughs of jumping puzzles are useless to me, I seem to lack the manual dexterity to complete them.  I suppose I could eventually learn to do them but if I had an desire to do that I probably wouldn't have ignored every platform game since the release of coin op Donkey Kong.

Preach it!


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: proudft on July 23, 2013, 04:17:33 PM
That south Dredgehaunt Cliffs puzzle is like 10x harder than any of the others, I dunno what its problem is.  It should just lead to a fancychest instead of being part of the 100%.  I am normally ok at the jumping, but that one seriously took like an hour.  The one inside the mountain there looks harder than it really is, there are parts of it you can skip by jumping down to other paths and whatnot but that stupid scaffold is just nuts.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Ingmar on July 23, 2013, 04:25:08 PM
Yeah the scaffold was the hardest of the 100% ones I think, although there was a fairly annoying one in WvW too IIRC.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Lantyssa on July 23, 2013, 06:08:40 PM
Dredgehaunt took me a long time early in the game, but now I can run it in five minutes.  It's not that I've memorized it so much as I've learned what to look for when it comes to jumpable locations.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Fordel on July 23, 2013, 06:48:14 PM
Yeah the scaffold was the hardest of the 100% ones I think, although there was a fairly annoying one in WvW too IIRC.

The scaffold was hard because as a norn the camera just decides to reside inside your asshole 90% of the time while on the scaffolding.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Zetor on July 24, 2013, 12:09:46 AM
Yeah the scaffold was the hardest of the 100% ones I think, although there was a fairly annoying one in WvW too IIRC.
If you mean the one in EB (southwestern keep I think), then yeah. In general, precision jumps along thin beams can be frustrating... thankfully, since it's wvw, there's almost always a mesmer around porting people to the top. My personal #2 after that was the vizier's tower (I think?) in Orr, but that's just because whoever designed the vista was a huge asshole when it came to false leads and ledges that LOOK like they're part of the jumping puzzle, but are not  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Yegolev on July 24, 2013, 09:40:46 AM
This discussion is funny to me because jumping is a horrible gate to this group in the same way that working in groups to defeat bosses is a gate to me.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Ingmar on July 24, 2013, 01:18:13 PM
Yeah the scaffold was the hardest of the 100% ones I think, although there was a fairly annoying one in WvW too IIRC.
If you mean the one in EB (southwestern keep I think), then yeah. In general, precision jumps along thin beams can be frustrating... thankfully, since it's wvw, there's almost always a mesmer around porting people to the top. My personal #2 after that was the vizier's tower (I think?) in Orr, but that's just because whoever designed the vista was a huge asshole when it came to false leads and ledges that LOOK like they're part of the jumping puzzle, but are not  :why_so_serious:

Yeah, southwest keep in EB, that's the one. I did it maybe a month after release? Definitely no mesmers around at the time. In fact to this point in game I've never seen a mesmer portal (but I don't play very often anymore.)

This discussion is funny to me because jumping is a horrible gate to this group in the same way that working in groups to defeat bosses is a gate to me.

That's a gate to me in this game as well, but really only because group PVE is so awful in this game.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: kildorn on July 24, 2013, 04:06:15 PM
Stop whining and come RVR with us. :P

edit: down side for me right now is that while I'm really into RVR again.. my computer is not, and keeps locking up or rebooting randomly. Stupid thing.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Fordel on July 24, 2013, 09:12:02 PM
Mesmer portals are always a surprise! Free loot bags or instant death, you never know till you jump in!  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: kildorn on July 25, 2013, 12:48:28 AM
I've kind of fallen in love with defensive use of portal entre. Even if I don't have a target to portal bomb, it lasts 60 seconds, and the entire duration counts as a Glamour field for purposes of blind and confuse spam.

I had a lot of fun on the keep walls with that. But beyond glamour spam and portals.. kind of meh on my mesmer's ability to directly engage in combat. Great at fucking with clumps of people who stay in one spot, but less so at engaging in any form of mobile fight.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Nija on July 25, 2013, 11:17:08 AM
Man, how long have you been RVRing? I went back out the other day and it was the same exact shit it was the first month.

I played the first 6 week and have about 24,000 WvW kills and it hasn't changed a bit! Also I noticed some shit about reaching realm rank 2? They didn't look at existing history and bump people up to the correct level?!

Shameful. That's something SOE would do. They really need to get with it.

They made a huge mistake by concentrating on the SPVP bullshit instead of WvW.



Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Threash on July 25, 2013, 11:23:59 AM
Man, how long have you been RVRing? I went back out the other day and it was the same exact shit it was the first month.

I played the first 6 week and have about 24,000 WvW kills and it hasn't changed a bit! Also I noticed some shit about reaching realm rank 2? They didn't look at existing history and bump people up to the correct level?!

Shameful. That's something SOE would do. They really need to get with it.

They made a huge mistake by concentrating on the SPVP bullshit instead of WvW.



They made the mistake of thinking world pvp meant "neverending AV".  They completely missed the point of what world pvp people want, there really is no fixing it now.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Ingmar on July 25, 2013, 01:12:57 PM
Man, how long have you been RVRing? I went back out the other day and it was the same exact shit it was the first month.

I played the first 6 week and have about 24,000 WvW kills and it hasn't changed a bit! Also I noticed some shit about reaching realm rank 2? They didn't look at existing history and bump people up to the correct level?!

Shameful. That's something SOE would do. They really need to get with it.

They made a huge mistake by concentrating on the SPVP bullshit instead of WvW.



They made the mistake of thinking world pvp meant "neverending AV".  They completely missed the point of what world pvp people want, there really is no fixing it now.

They didn't make that mistake - at least not in the way you think. They made DAOC RVR, and it's enjoyable in the same way that DAOC RVR was. It isn't world PVP, and people who wanted world PVP wouldn't be happy with it, but I don't think they set out to make world PVP in the first place.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Threash on July 25, 2013, 01:15:34 PM
I wasn't a big fan of DaoC but i think realm pvp was the point of the game, not something that thrown in that had no impact at all on the rest of the game just so they could check "world pvp" of a list.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Ingmar on July 25, 2013, 01:32:51 PM
I wasn't a big fan of DaoC but i think realm pvp was the point of the game, not something that thrown in that had no impact at all on the rest of the game just so they could check "world pvp" of a list.

I really don't think WvW is just something being checked off a list. The zones are well-designed for the most part, lots of people are participating, at least on the servers in the top half of the list, and it's generating the exact same kind of forum drama and lulz that DAOC RVR did. For me I'd *much* rather have this than any other style of world PVP.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Soukyan on July 25, 2013, 02:16:38 PM
Non-recurring, expiring content is a terrible idea if you ask me.  It just screws people who might only want to play occasionally.

Occasional players are not the target audience for the expiring content as they do not spend the money on the cash shop that constant, hardcore players do. The people who log in daily for an hour or more are the target audience, and who are the "whales", if you will. Somebody posted a gambling related pic in this thread, but it is apropos here. The cash shop model is exploiting a lot of the same techniques that casinos use to tap those who are prone to getting a physiological boost of hormones from these achievements. They are the ones who fund the game development for the rest of us.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Threash on July 25, 2013, 02:52:13 PM
Besides it doesn't actually "screw" you in any way as the events don't come with any power increases.  The only way it can screw you is if you actually wanted to play the content, in which case you would assume that people would actually login and play it.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Tmon on July 25, 2013, 03:05:23 PM
Which is why I don't get too worked up about the required jumping puzzle bit, it does annoy me on one level but since completing the event only gives out some cosmetic stuff and and one or two items that I can most likely get other ways it doesn't matter much.  The two week cycle may actually cause me to log in more often just on the off chance that one of the new events might be something I find fun. 


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Ingmar on July 25, 2013, 03:43:53 PM
The only way it can screw you is if you actually wanted to play the content, in which case you would assume that people would actually login and play it.

Except the way their limited-time content works is incompatible with how I at least tend to play games. I will binge on a game for a couple weeks then walk away for a couple months. Their model is much more along the lines of 'play for an hour every day but it has to be EVERY day' instead. If they made their temporary story content permanently available it could accomodate both kinds of players.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Kageru on July 25, 2013, 04:56:40 PM

I'm pretty sure it is based on the idea that once they drop out of peoples minds and routines it's hard to get their attention back. It's probably true even if their method of dealing with the problem seems a bit wasteful.

World-PvP seems to be working fine, people are still into it. They removed the ability to "win" a permanent boost for the winning side because eventually they get over their brain damage design decisions... mostly.




Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Nija on July 25, 2013, 06:13:32 PM
Put it to you guys this way.

I like big world PVP.

I've given SOE over $300 so far to play world PVP in Planetside 2 and I still have an active, recurring, 6 month subscription due to the perks of that game.

I bought the BOX for Guildwars 2 and I've not given them a cent since.

They fucked up and completely missed getting any money from me.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Sjofn on July 25, 2013, 06:40:14 PM
And that's fine? Because instead they have money from me. I haven't even given PS2 the courtesy of a download. It's like not all PvP is the same, and not all people open to PvP want the same thing out of it.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Nija on July 25, 2013, 07:07:46 PM
You have focused on WvW and you've gave GW2 money? That's the first time I've heard of that.

I'm just pointing out they've ignored a quarter of their game/market. If you split it up SPVP, PVE, Raiding, and WvW.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Kageru on July 25, 2013, 07:51:33 PM

I play GW2 for the complete package of which WvW is a part. I don't play PS2 much anymore because the fighting over meaningless forts gets tedious in either and PS2 has nothing else to offer.

The idea of paying 300$ dollars to play PS2 just confuses me, different flavors of gun don't really make the game that much more interesting. Buying advantage perhaps because SOE are bad at game balance?


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Phred on July 25, 2013, 08:07:43 PM
I wasn't a big fan of DaoC but i think realm pvp was the point of the game, not something that thrown in that had no impact at all on the rest of the game just so they could check "world pvp" of a list.

I don't remember RvR having much of an "impact" on anything in DAOC other than a minor boost to stats but oh wait, GW2 has that too.





Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Nija on July 25, 2013, 08:16:45 PM
The idea of paying 300$ dollars to play PS2 just confuses me, different flavors of gun don't really make the game that much more interesting. Buying advantage perhaps because SOE are bad at game balance?

Different flavors of guns make all the difference. I have basically everything for everything on all 3 sides.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: kildorn on July 25, 2013, 08:25:47 PM
The idea of paying 300$ dollars to play PS2 just confuses me, different flavors of gun don't really make the game that much more interesting. Buying advantage perhaps because SOE are bad at game balance?

Different flavors of guns make all the difference. I have basically everything for everything on all 3 sides.

While I'd agree that GW2's not setup to get a ton of revenue from store purchases from pvpers.. I don't think that's the point.

From a customer standpoint, I'm far happier with my GW2 purchase for WvW purposes than my PS2 store purchases. Because the difference is pretty much that in PS2 I pay to avoid grind. In GW2 there's not very much grind to avoid (which is why people were livid over Ascended gear initially: it was trying to add a gear grind)

The GW2 method is actually really similar to DAOC's earlier days in that there's a rather short ramp up from max level to effectively fully geared. It's also one of the reasons people revolted against ToA's Master Levels and leveling of pants. In PS2 while you can get everything without paying and there's a relatively flat power curve for the extra goodies, without paying there's a pretty massive grind to get it all even for just one class.

Different strokes and all that.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Kageru on July 25, 2013, 08:37:56 PM
Different flavors of guns make all the difference. I have basically everything for everything on all 3 sides.

Thanks for funding the game for me. I might play it again one day with the one optimal for my play-style gun I bought (on a triple station cash day).

That said I don't think the hardcore who would do something like that are GW2's target market.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Sjofn on July 26, 2013, 02:48:17 PM
You have focused on WvW and you've gave GW2 money? That's the first time I've heard of that.

I'm just pointing out they've ignored a quarter of their game/market. If you split it up SPVP, PVE, Raiding, and WvW.

You misunderstand why I paid them money. There's nothing on the store "for" WvW. That is a good thing. But when they release an armor skin I like the look of, or if I'm debating adding more bank space, or I want more character slots, it's a hell of a lot more likely I will pay them money, because I enjoy their product and am perfectly happy to support them.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Ingmar on July 26, 2013, 02:51:28 PM
Yeah making WvW someplace you could spend money would be the absolute worst choice they could make in terms of making the people who like WvW happy.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: kildorn on July 26, 2013, 05:20:35 PM
I've dumped a bit of money on cosmetics, bank slots, etc.

That's the kind of microtransactions I like: shit that doesn't really matter. Though to be fair on release the bank was WAY too small considering the special crafting mats didn't have a tab back then.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Sjofn on July 26, 2013, 05:23:30 PM
Amusingly, I refused to buy more bank space as a result, as a sort of feet-stamping sulkiness. Now they expanded the crafting mats storage? WHY YES I WILL BUY ANOTHER RACK OF SLOTS IN WHICH TO STORE RANDOM BULLSHIT.

I'd really like them to add dowels and crap to the crafting tabs though. Alas!


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Nevermore on July 26, 2013, 06:33:46 PM
Crafted food that is used as ingredients for other food needs special storage.  Did they ever add that?


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Ingmar on July 26, 2013, 07:06:10 PM
No. The problem with it is that they don't want it to auto-bank with the 'deposit all' button because you might want to keep it in your bag to use as food rather than turn into something else, I suspect.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Nevermore on July 26, 2013, 07:10:22 PM
If I remember correctly, there are bags that override stuff like that from happening, no?  Like bags that make the items in them 'invisible' to vendors or automatically filter craft stuff to them and such.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Nija on July 26, 2013, 09:23:07 PM
What, you guys wouldn't pay money to unlock Rifles as a weapon for your Necromancers? It's not only a WvW thing, even!

That's what you get when you spend money on PS2. Camo, and extra weapons. The extra weapons are only strong for the first week they come out. After everyone has bought 'em they get nerfed.


They need to make changes to WvW - I don't want to pay to win at WvW. I want to make WvW interesting and worth actually playing instead of something that everyone I know abandoned after 6 weeks.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Nevermore on July 26, 2013, 09:47:59 PM
They need to make changes to WvW - I don't want to pay to win at WvW. I want to make WvW interesting and worth actually playing instead of something that everyone I know abandoned after 6 weeks.

For example?


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Ingmar on July 26, 2013, 09:49:12 PM
I wouldn't want that. WvW is meant to be a level playing field; you get your fairly easy stuff capped out and you're set for life. I don't want money spent to equal anything useful for actual gameplay purposes at all when it comes to PVP. I already am pretty lukewarm about them bringing realm rank things to spend points on into it, honestly.

I think the zones are well constructed and I have fun when I go there. At least on JQ there are normally tons of people out there, it sure doesn't seem like something everyone quit after 6 weeks.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Setanta on July 26, 2013, 10:34:00 PM
WvW seems fine to me - jump in and have fun. It always seems populated Aussie/NZ timeslot and that's when our server is quietest. Weekends there's occasionally a queue to get in.

I think people might be playing more than the 6 weeks suggested.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: proudft on July 26, 2013, 11:13:03 PM
JQ Borderlands was full-to-queue at about 7 pm PST tonight.  Madness!


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: kildorn on July 27, 2013, 12:37:30 PM
What, you guys wouldn't pay money to unlock Rifles as a weapon for your Necromancers? It's not only a WvW thing, even!

That's what you get when you spend money on PS2. Camo, and extra weapons. The extra weapons are only strong for the first week they come out. After everyone has bought 'em they get nerfed.


They need to make changes to WvW - I don't want to pay to win at WvW. I want to make WvW interesting and worth actually playing instead of something that everyone I know abandoned after 6 weeks.

Unlocking new weapon sets via cash WOULD be a WvW thing: you're adding skills that are only obtainable via cash.

Camo is just cosmetics, it's the extra weapons that rubs WvW people the wrong way. The idea is a flat as hell power curve and add purely cosmetic shit via cash shop so you can show off.

Now, what WOULD be nice is some variety in WvW maps in my opinion. But doing that while maintaining some level of testing and balance is pretty unpossible, so we're basically stuck with what DAOC had: static maps we've all played 500 times on, and the variable is the other players. Which amuses me just fine to be honest.


Title: Re: New Patch: Experiments in alternative progression
Post by: Setanta on July 27, 2013, 04:03:50 PM
I didn't get the memo that said the wouldn't add maps.