f13.net

Not the shitshow I thought it would be. Super-cliched and predictable as fuck, but I actually kind of enjoyed it.

Tivoed it but haven't watched it yet. I was hoping it wasn't terrible.

It was better than I expected, enough to at least leave the series recording intact for now. Darker than I'd thought it would be. Admittedly I never read Green Arrow really, but if this series is to be believed, he's Batman with a bow, and possibly less moral qualms.

Personally I always pictured Oliver Queen as British, not a playboy American from notVancouver.

Green Arrow is Batman if Batman was a raging liberal and a huge womanizer.

And willing to actually kill people. I do like the fact that a guy who uses a bow and arrow actually is willing to shoot bad guys with it.

It was entertaining but had some big plot holes. I think the series needs to establish A) how he learned languages, martial arts and archery on that island and B) where he got his specialized arrows. He has one arrow that is critical to the plot but it is never explained where he got it from.

Arrow picked up for a full season (http://omg.yahoo.com/news/arrow-cw-orders-full-season-action-packed-drama-230135824.html) (nine more episodes ordered)

I like the show so far and glad they picked it up for a full season. 

It is continuing to hold my interest. I find it odd that they have a beef cake shot in every episode yet other than that the show seems setup to appeal more to male viewers. I don't know if they just are hoping to bring in their usual female audience as well or what. Also, the actress who is playing his ex-girlfriend got some acting lessons since I saw her last on Supernatural.

Okay, so I watched two episodes of this and all I can remember are the parts where he worked out.  I just can't seem to get past it.  I even watched the first one over to catch more of the story but no luck.  Just the working out.  So now I just skip to the working out parts.  Just makes sense.

The other night we gave this a shot and ended up watching three episodes in a row. For what it is, it's not bad. Certainly better than most of the other sad offerings the networks gave us this year like Revolution. The fact that I'm shipping he and his sister rather than what I believe is intended to be the love interest is a little creepy, but what can you do.

As to the beefcake, neither of us was complaining, but I will say that the main reason I checked the show out was every guy on my Facebook feed watches it. And surprise, they're all gay.

The part I'm actually finding I like quite a bit is they aren't completely pretending this show happens in some non-DC bubble, with the costumed villians starting to show up.  Still pretending that there isn't a world full of super heroes already though.

My wife can't get into this because the green arrow from the smallville series is jammed in her head and she can't re-imagine the green arrow.

Tell her to do what I do (although I've never even seen the Green Arrow from that other show).  Just watch the bits where he works out, tune out the rest... your own story will develop in your mind.  Works for me.

This show makes me wish Dresden Files was true to the books.

<3 Blackthorne.

(http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTU4ODMyMjM1Ml5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwMjc2MjQ3._V1._SX214_CR0,0,214,314_.jpg)

Dresden was a product of having a really tiny budget, sadly.  The producer was pretty up front about this somewhere, think it was on Butcher's website.  They did do some interesting things though at least, and it wasn't a complete travesty.  It does make me sad that shows like this seem to get a larger budget than that did though.  I am glad that Blackthorne is starting to pop up in a lot of places though, he's actually a decent actor.

So this is back and its better than the Shield  :drill: Felicity is hot nerd chick done right  :drillf: Second season is looking mighty strong...and its basically apology letter to everything that happened a season before, normally I'd hate it but THIS show sets up the drama and the consequences just right that I can actually enjoy reading this apology letter. Laurie is still the most boring bland whitebread character in the series...but meh can't be all awesome. I honestly hope her "on heels" kungfu only happens once a season.

Her character is what bothers me the most, as well. Mainly because I just don't buy the acting from the actress. Its not that she's bad.. its more that she's just notably so much worse than the rest of the cast at delivering their characters. Still, I'm not overly thrilled with the whole 'refrain from killing thing', but that's always was a pet peeve of mine with comics and shows.

Also agree with Felicity; I really like her 'hot nerd chick' character, especially compared to the one in Shield. Primarily because the actress gets a number of mannerisms down that 'feel' right to me compared to the utter lack of such from Sky in Shield.

Arrow has done really well at delivering the corny in a respectable manner.

Felicity was Smoak'n!

I keep forgetting there's an Agents of Shield show, and thought you meant The Shield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shield).

This is probably my favorite show so far this season.  Felicity is awesome.

(http://i.imgur.com/EV7A4qU.gif)

(http://i.imgur.com/Rd34rGO.gif)

I love her slip ups on the show.  I laughed in the first episode this season when she puts Oliver's workout area right in front of her computer desk.

A chick gotta perv  :drillf:

They are doing this at least once per episode.  Best part of a great show, that girl is freaking perfect.  Also, am i crazy or did the change the blonde triad chick for one less asian looking? and who the hell is black wolverine?

China White is the same actress and Michael Jai White is Bronze Tiger.

I liked Arrow so far but I think that the whole no killing -thing might turn into something that will "sanitize" the show (which would be a shame in my opinion especially if the change in theme will affect the island flashbacks)

I think the island will remain brutal.... I don't know Ollie killing everyone he meets means no rouge's gallery.

We just saw him smash someone's face to bits with a rock on the island.

And I fear that will be the reason they'll have him changing his behaviour on the island just like his friend dying is the reason he isn't killing the bad guys anymore.

Just started watching this on Netflix. Wow it really is pretty good. Only 1/2 way through the second episode, but I'm already impressed.

Not reading anymore here until I catch up.

I think island Ollie and starlet city Ollie mirror each other. Remember first season when Ollie couldn't kill a chicken on the island but mascaraed kidnappers sent by his mom? Remember when how each episode racked up a kill count, but on the island Ollie couldn't hurt a fly and learned to fight reluctantly? Now the reverse is true, Ollie is going out of his way to disable criminals while the island Ollie just curb-stomped someone face with a rock for looking at his girl wrong.

This is shit.

For more insightful and verbose commentary, please visit my website.  www.thingsareshit.com

Better than buffy.  They do seem to be in a big damn hurry to use all the tropes.  I guess that is to be expected.

Not sure I'll call it better than buffy. I mean that show hit a few cords right that I'm not sure this show can. For example it gave us a persistent threat level for everything not just for big bads. Few times I feel that Ollie is struggling to do anything besides the season finale. While Buffy, she made it look easy but you kinda got the sense that one mistake leads to horrible death (and she is already a fallible person to begin with), which makes her taking out generic vampires far more interesting and visceral than Ollie mowing down arm gunmen. Olie is very much a force of nature in his own show which made much of the first season feel rather cheesy.

From my perspective buffy is unwatchable boring garbage.  Being better than buffy need not be high praise.

This show is crazy entertaining.

Except for the actress playing Laurel.  Good God she's horrid.

I may be extra high on this show, and I've said it before, but Blackthorne just kills it every time and makes me want Dresden back.

I got bored with Smallville in Season one and am struggling with Shield but I love this show.


The sad thing about Laurel is that she's improved as an actress since the first time I saw her which was as a recurring character on Supernatural. She was terrible back then. I remember seeing her in the first episode of Season one and I literally said out loud "She must have hired an acting coach."

I feel like the show has taken a large step back this year.  It feels like there is someone telling them to make it more family friendly...

The first season was rather silly.

Still really like this show.  I think the main character's effort not to kill people has been one of the most positive changes this season.  Not that a show needs to be bloodless to be entertaining, but him being mindful of the cost of his actions is a refreshing change.

It's surprising how many people are complaining he's trying not to kill. 

It's like the people who cheer in that Captain Phillips movie when a horde of US navy battleships descend upon three pirates in a rubber Zodiac.  Some people don't want heroes, they want bullies.

You might want to pick a better set of scrappy underdogs for your moral outrage.

--Dave

The episode he decides he wants to stop killing is also the episode that he brains that dude with a rock on the island.  I'm sure there is still going to be him killing, but just in the island flashbacks.

I wouldn't mind him trying not to kill indiscriminately, it pisses me off when he risks his life and whatever important thing he has to do to not kill someone who is obviously very very dangerous and trying very hard to kill him.  Like with black wolverine.  You wanna capture the nerdy murderer and send him back to prison? fine by me, but don't fucking go easy on the guy who is actually kicking your ass.

I think it's stupid because it's another Batman similarity in a character that's already like, 90% Batman.

To be honest, I don't think Ollie's arch makes much sense.  If he now thinks that all the murdering he did last season in the path of vengeance (including guys that were apparently nothing more than hired help), why hasn't he surrendered to the police to face justice?

Kind of missing the point.  I'm not morally outraged.  I just think attacking a couple of malnourished yokels with the full might of the US navy isn't exactly a "Mission Accomplished" moment.

I don't think he feels so bad about all the stuff he did as the Hood, that he would turn himself in and probably be put to death.  He was done with everything but was pulled back by Diggs and Felicity.  Tommy's death is really what pushed him into becoming a hero and not a vigilante.  He pretty much decided that if he's going to help Starling City he's going to do it in a way that honors his friend's death.

I see why you're a fan of agent of shield.  :oh_i_see:

The easy in-universe answer to jgsugden's question is "Because he still feels like the city needs him"

They're not making the show family friendly like you said in an earlier post. Black Canary is proof of that. I think she is actually partially in the show to serve as a mirror for Ollie. At some point he'll probably see her murder somebody and turn to Diggle and say "That was me last year wasn't it?"

What they're trying to do is take him from a vigilante who kills indiscriminately to more of a heroic character. Tommy's death is the catalyst and while I was sorry to see that character go in some ways (also surprised as I thought they were setting him up to be a new villain ala Harry Osborne) it works well as a dramatic catalyst for events in this season.

Looks like I missed the second half of the first season, how the hell did that happen ?

What, Tommy dying? From the season one finale:

Finally got caught up to last week. Really like the Black Canary look. As to her identity:


Really want to see Roy wear the yellow hat.  :why_so_serious:

Wow, I just had a mental 'click' as I realized the black canary's look besides being cool is also a major hint to her ties to other factions in the show. I feel silly for not having realized that before.

Since I don't watch the show anyway I went ahead and took a look on IMBD and noticed that Summer Glau is credited with a part.  This means the show will cancelled after this season.  :why_so_serious:

Are you talking about China White?

I like this season so far, only complain I have is that they have not turned down the Windows 8 product placement (enough).

Hawaii Five O was AWFUL for that.  Fucking Awful.

Heh.

Ii spite of that Glau curse, I think this is one of those CW shows that lingers for a decade.

I watched my first episode of this show, the 1st of the second season on demand.  Pretty good.  But it had a TON of commercial breaks.  Bleargh. 

How fun!

I have some problems with the show, but I was impressed with the acting by the girl playing Sarah -  she looked impressive in the action sequences and her acting wasn't the typical 'comic book' melodrama-esque acting we see in many scifi/super shows.  I am betting she is headed to the grave sometime this season, but I think she is going to break out and get a major role sometime soon.  She'd be a good Sue Storm.

Caity Lotz has some weird pouty face going on that bothers me, otherwise I think she is doing well as Canary.

She has a weird looking chin actually, but she is still hot and doing ok with the character.  Laurel is close to ruining this show for me though.

(http://photos.summerglauwiki.com/albums/userpics/10003/Arrow_2x04_Crucible__8.jpg)

This show is now cancelled.

Living up to your name, I see.   :awesome_for_real:

It's not a FOX show, though, so it still has hope.

I don't know, I see a couple of foxes right there.  :drill:

Now I have the two wilds me crazy guys sketch stuck in my head.

MALCOLM MOTHERFUCKING MERLIN  :drill: :drill: :drill: :drill:

I'm not sure i like where this is heading with Barry Allen and actual superpowers, specially since i assume whatever Oliver just got injected with is probably going to turn him into a super also.

I am wagering Oliver got nailed with a ton of tranquilizers. Also aren't people already people with super powers occupying the same universe as the green arrow?

I'm really enjoying the show.  The island story is interesting and weaves in pretty well with the main story.  A gripe I have is
Also hot damn Felicity cleans up real good!

He got injected with some of the ketamine he was trying to protect. 

As to the powers thing, it's what they've been building towards it all season, and with all the references to other stuff in the DC universe they've been dropping, it was just a matter of time.  I think that, outside the show, they've been saying they'd like to be able to bring in just about every aspect of the DC universe, but they're specifically limited from using certain characters, aka Superman and Batman. 

Well so far they are doing a great job of bringing DC characters onboard.  Had two origins tonight.  Was the big bad thug supposed to be Solomon Grundy?  They call him Gold, but Ollie mentioned SG so not sure.  They show walks a fine line between soap opera and superhero stuff.  Successfully so far.  I really like the interweaving between current events and The Island. 

It was actually three origins.. You get Cyrus Gold who becomes Solomon Grundy, You have Barry Allen getting Flashed, and Roy getting the serum shooting him towards becoming Aresnal.  You could even say 4 because you have Deathstroke's as well in the episode.

Just finished season 2 episode 1. Man that finale was fucking awesome. The first episode of S2 was pretty good, but something about the lighting or film seems different, maybe a little more clean. The dynamic of them now all being in the executive wing is funny (though I'd have set up Felicity as CTO or at least CIO), but I'm not sold yet on the no-kill thing yet. I get it though, and like the way they have been writing it in so far. Just not sure how it'll play out. Of course, all you do already because I'm only on episode 2 and it looks like they're up to Ep 11 for the season. This is the only show I've ever actually bought an iTunes episodes for. I need to at least catch up to where the CW app is :-)

I'm not reading the spoilered stuff in this thread, but I really hope they don't get into the mystical/magic shit. I appreciate this show is about Green Arrow, but the more they don't get into the geeky wonky stuff of comic books yore, the more I think they'll continue to succeed.

Caught up to realtime, US anyway.

Still strong to me, but I'm not a fan of the Laurel plot. And Queen for Mayor, really? Sure maybe getting caught doing drugs you can politically cover from. But blowing up a part of the city?

Starling is like Toronto, but more forgiving. 

Yeah, I've come to really dislike anything involving the mother and Laurel. Everything else though, I'm loving.

I really hope they don't kill off Sara and have Laurel replace her.

Still waiting for Laurel to go.

Yes. Though she wasn't terrible in the most recent episode.

Only thing I'm not liking now is that every time one set of the cast reconciles, another goes off the rails. However:

I loved the little Harley Quinn cameo on the suicide squad episode.  As much shit as DC gets for getting their ass kicked by Marvel this show is what Agents of SHIELD should've been more like.

Very nice episode tonight.  Deathstroke is really driving Ollie crazy.  Lots of revelations and wringing of hands afterwards!  Roy's 'you're screwing him' comment was abrupt and vulgar and gave this show a little nastiness I think it needed.

Why did people think this show was bad? We're about halfway through the 2nd season now catching up and it's really pretty excellent.

I'm 2/3 the way through S1 and really liking the series. Decent, solid writing so far and I love the flashbacks to the island. Decent writing all round. I definitely need to get caught up faster.

Wife and I just started watching this.  It's not terrible.

However, what it *is* is the male version of Revenge, which since I came to that realization has tainted my view of it a bit.

Tonight's episode was great.  Last three episodes of the season are going to be pretty intense.

The first few episodes are a slog, smallville wasn't too far away, and the analogiea to say Nolans batman was strong.

Caught up finally. Still loving this show. Loved the Suicide Squad and would watch a show with just them.

That's right, I totally forgot about that.

So that was interesting.

Wonder what next season's Big Bad/arc is going to be.

Green Arrow in the comics never had the greatest rogue's gallery (unlike The Flash, who has one almost as good as Batman's).

Prometheus might be a character they could fit into this show.

Good season ender. Wrapped some stuff up nicely and set the stage for next year.  Ollie's plan was a neat little trick. 

Maybe it's because I watched the last 3 episodes of breaking bad immediately before watching arrow, but I thought the rest of the season was better than this episode. It just felt flat and contrived. It just didn't hold my interest like the other episodes.

The one twist I was waiting for  

I liked it. Not quite as well done as last season's ender, but there were a SHITLOAD of irons in the fire. We've basically just watched a two-season origin story.  :why_so_serious:

Slade isn't done and we still have 3 years/seasons worth of flashbacks to work with on his background, as well as Argus and the island. Not sure about where they are leading Laurel, since she got real annoying this season.

I would SO watch a Suicide Squad show with Deadshot. I wasn't enthused with his first appearance but they did a lot more with him this season.

I think Laurel becomes Black Canary by the end of season 3.  Sara giving her the jacket at the end pretty much signaled that.  Also Thea and Merlyn possible season 3 baddies.  If they aren't going to kill off Thea, she could morph into Artemis on the show.

Oh wow, I think you're exactly right.  They keep calling Sara 'Canary' so when she dies Laurel can become, in classic comic fashion, 'Black Canary'. 

Also, Roy is Speedy correct?  I guess they won't use that name though, Roy might get pissed. 

Roy I believe is arsenal thea is likely speedy since that has been her nickname all show long.

Dude has a red bow a red hood and a red mask, that might be a hint as to who he is :P

Oliver called Roy "Speedy" one time to get him to think of Thea, but that was likely just fan service. They'll probably end up calling him Red Arrow.

Not sure I like them turning Laurel into Black Canary, since Laurel has annoyed the piss out of me this season. Also, BOOBS... as in not quite as busty as Sara.

It just struck me that there are 3 pages of posts for this  2 year old show - and 32 for the one year old MAoS. 

When I saw the pilot, I thought they needed to recast their future Canary.  I still think it is the best option.  She just does not look comfortable in the role.

People will more easily complain than praise.

I liked the first 2 seasons of Arrow probably more than MAoS so far despite having my moments of doubt when the arrow decided to go all mopey and not kill anyone anymore and all the island flashbacks that started to get irritating in my opinion at one point.

Arrow is probably my favorite show on TV ATM.  I watch a lot of junk, but rarely are there shows, like Arrow, where I hate missing an episode.

It's definitely my favorite show, but I only watch 4, and two only because I need treadmill fodder.

I enjoyed the finale except for the emo about not killing. Sure, yes, not killing was the theme for the season. But seriously dude, this guy gutted your mother in front of you. There is no turn the other cheek scenario there.

I like that Merlyn is back. I like the tie ins with Flash, and hope they do more with Suicide Squad, especially to establish the other characters more. DeadEye and Laurel are tied for characters that annoy me. And I'm assiduously avoiding looking up any comic book origin stories. You all have dropped names like Artemis and Black Canary and every single time I look them up on whatever wiki/wikia I land in, I can't get past the dumb. Yes I mean "dumb [to me]", but goddamn, if the only way to understand this crap means "I had to be there", I'm much happier being spoon fed by linear video.\

Truth.

I've been hoping they'd introduce Captain Boomerang for the SS.  It could be a huge train wreck, but I just want to see it attempted.

I can see it easily enough in terms of the aesthetic they've got going. I mean, they introduced Solomon Grundy for god's sake and did it in a way that probably nobody but the comics readers even noticed it had happened.

In terms of characters in Suicide Squad for the first 60-ish issues, they can probably rework:

Nemesis
Captain Boomerang
Maybe Nightshade, but that starts to move more towards actual superpowers than they have to date beyond the Mirakiru guys
Kobra
Dybbuk/Djinn
Rustam and Ravan (but they probably won't want to go there in quite the same fashion as the comic did)
Thinker

Probably not Vixen.

And Felicity is essentially already Oracle without the wheelchair--I keep wondering if the showrunners now have that idea in the back of their heads, considering that she wasn't intended to be a major character the first time she appeared.

In terms of the current new 52 version, which I haven't read, the Unknown Soldier is sort of the same schtick as Nemesis: a master of disguise. That would work well in the setting of the show.

-------

The challenge I think for the showrunners is that the best matches in the DC canon to the mood of the show are all Batman villains. They've pretty much already tapped out any villain distinctively associated with Green Arrow in any incarnation. The series Checkmate might provide some characters along with Suicide Squad, though.

Jim Gordon's daughter was Oracle right? I wonder if they try to tie that together somehow (Felicity become his daughter). I think even without that though, her becoming disabled and wheelchair bound would be something I'd expect to see in a season finale of Arrow, maybe by extension of a season of training to become a sidekick. Followed by a whole bunch of Oliver emo. And I don't mean derisively. For the most part, this show handles characters going emo fairly well :-)

I think the Gotham show has probably destroyed any more Batman crossover stuff with Arrow and Flash.

The characters can't really exist in the same universe unless Green Arrow is kind of a joke Batman (re: Brave and the Bold) or he's the comic-relief Marxist-blowhard of Justice League. Otherwise, Oliver is always just second-tier Batman. So they can take a few DC villains who have been both Batman and Green Arrow and/or street-level vigilante antagonists, but they can't take core Batman characters. Felicity reminds me of Oracle inasmuch as she was, post-Batgirl, essentially a geek girl whose main 'power' was being the best-informed hacker with the best computer gear she could buy (riffing off of Barbara Gordon, librarian). Oracle, of course, was also: formerly Batgirl AND in a wheelchair. But they've otherwise stolen most of what made Oracle the character she was save the wheelchair and former-Bat-hero thing.

In the universe of Arrow the TV show, Batman is the one DC character they could never introduce. Ever. Any other is ok, but not him.

They've made it official: The shared universe of Flash/Arrow is not going to be the same shared universe as Superman/Batman/Justice League.  http://www.blastr.com/2014-7-20/its-official-cws-arrow-and-flash-separate-universe-justice-league (http://www.blastr.com/2014-7-20/its-official-cws-arrow-and-flash-separate-universe-justice-league)

That opens some doors to include characters on Arrow/Flash that might have been precluded because they'd also be on film with high price actors.  However, I'm disappointed.  It looks like they're cutting off more possibilities than they're creating with this decision.

Of course, as this is a DC-ish setting, they could still do cross-overs using the 'multiple realities' angle.

Completely idiotic decision on all levels. The marketing possibilities being squandered alone are just insane. Not to mention the whole stupidity of having 3 different universes out there, some sharing characters (if you count the Gotham show on Fox which will have Batman characters but not be in either cinematic or CW universe). Just plain stupid waste.

Or in other words, LOLDC.

Eh, I think it actually makes sense to keep them separate. Arrow-DC is a Nolanverse: it runs off of some level of 'realism' where there is so far only one source of metahuman-level superpowers, which was a nearly-apocalyptic threat to a single city. Now Flash has introduced a second source of metahuman-level powers, along with a single metahuman-level hero to keep it in check. Maybe Ray Palmer's appearance in the coming season suggests we'll have a third metahuman vector eventually, maybe not. If you drop Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Superman and Cyborg into that world suddenly, then Ollie suddenly seems completely superfluous.

Not really, because the same rules apply to dropping Batman into the Man of Steel universe. How is a "regular human" going to beat a guy that can pick up skyscrapers?

Superior planning and preparation... :drill:

Arrow is no longer a Nolanverse.  It is a full fledged super world on par with Marvel's MCU.  They're setting up Firestorm and already have the Flash. It may be a step towards realism beyond what we'll see in the Justice League universe, but it will still be very grounded in metahuman ability.

I think it matters that it started as a Nolanverse and grew beyond that very slowly and through discrete events. That's still really different than the Justice League movie.

Frankly I also think the Arrow & Flash producers would be wise to stay the hell away from what I assume is going to be a trainwreck.

I think they could have capitalized on the promotion from being associated, could have had Wally and Oliver spend 20 seconds on film in a movie, and then ignored it.

I agree with jg; have them cameo.  But I am sure DC doesn't know what the fuck they are doing with their DCCU *snerk*.  And I'm saying this as a fan of MoS.

I am actually glad they are separate.  That means there is at least some DC stuff worth watching in Arrow and Flash.  It's better they don't get tainted by the DC Movies.

^ This. I thought the decision was stupid from a big picture perspective but assuming Arrow and the Flash stay good it can only be in their favor to be distanced from what feels like a Batman and Robin level cluster fuck coming over the horizon.

Oddly enough the one character addition that alarms me a bit is Firestorm, if they do that.

The Flash I think can be kept somewhat "street-level", in an odd way. They don't have to introduce the crazy overpowering--the vibrating through walls, the speed-of-light stuff, the time travel. He can just be really fast, with some kind of healing power. If he has his classic Rogues Gallery with some modernizing and updating, he also can pretty much stay contained in his own city, with just a bit of spillover into the larger world.

The Atom, if that's where the Ray Palmer character goes, can also just be a sort of quirky low-key hero who still fits into Ollie's world--basically a specialized espionage/recon guy who knows some science. You just have to stay away from shrinking down to atomic size and all that.

Firestorm, though, well. On one hand, it's one of the greatest secret identities in comics ever and totally underutilized as a concept. But there's really no way to make his powers stay within the frame that the show has established. If they introduce him, I'd assume that he will be a short-lived tragic character who will be gone by the end of the season (give him a "half-life", what the heck). Or they'll have to put major limitations on his powers and concentrate instead the more interesting character work you can do with him.

Basically there are five characters that I think you just cannot introduce into Arrow without wrecking the whole thing: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter. I suppose you could introduce Martian Manhunter if you really, really alter the character massively.

Alas, Time Travel (at leats) is in the cards.  We've already heard the story of how his mom seemed to have been murdered by a 'man in a blur'. That is a set up for something that relies on time travel.   If you look at the last season of Arrow, and the promos for where Arrow and Flash are going in their next seasons, it is clear that they're aiming to make these shows metahuman focused. 

Ah, right--that's clearly the Reverse Flash, and yeah, time travel--but I'm guessing it will be a one-off accident when it happens, rather than Flash routinely jetting around through time like Doctor Who.

Wibbly wobbly speedy forcey bullshit.

Not that I am trying to pick on anybody specifically, but I find it amusing just where people choose to draw their line of believability.

 Personally I'm down for time travel and metahumans but there's still gonna be a lot of hand waving bullshit going on to explain it all.  Par for the course in comics.

Supposedly they are pulling a lot from the Rebirth story arc.  I don't read DC so not sure that f I remembered you it right. 

As for Arrow news.. Roy finally gets a costume. 

(http://www.superherohype.com/assets/uploads/2014/07/arrow_602x800.jpg)

Either that's a terrible photoshop or that man's head is gigantic.

It's not really about believability at all for me. The Flash can jet through time when he takes a crap if that makes for interesting stories. But I think the jury is in--it generally doesn't. Casual time travel is okay for a kind of whimsy but it doesn't really help a superhero story gain traction. Kurt Busiek tried to tackle this problem a bit with Kang the Conqueror--basically, if he's got time travel, why does he *ever* get beaten, why not just arrive ten seconds before Thor punches his face in and kill Thor? Answer: it's a weird psychological hang-up he has OR (depending on the story) it's timey-wimey. Any character or situation that has time travel that isn't just about Bill-and-Ted level whimsy eventually has to either swear off of time-travel driven stories or set serious rules for them. Since The Flash is mostly about a guy who runs fast punching super-villains in the face, it might be a problem if Barry travelled through time every single episode to fix whatever it is that didn't go right in the first 30 minutes. Just as a matter of story-telling.

If flash's mom doesn't die he can never become the flash and the villain who killed his mom would have never killed her if not to get at the flash,  so it's a fixed point in time?

edit:fixed for paradoxes.

(http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/doctor-who-rain-sad.gif)

First episode of the Flash seems to imply time travel of some sort in the closing scene. Very watchable episode. The inner jury is out of S3E1 of Arrow.

Flash now has its own thread....

All I can say about Arrow is last night had the moment I knew was coming, but was not looking forward to seeing....

I didn't expect it so soon is the big thing.

I liked everything except the ending and the forced drama. The "I can't be with Felicity" thing is something he should have gotten over by the end of last season.

Yea I understand emo's gotta emo, but just once I'd like a whole episode that was happy :-)

I do like Routh's character, for however long he's on this instead of Flash.

Liked this episode a lot. Far less drama shit, more of the humor. And enjoying alot Routh's character. He's basically just billionaire Clark Kent, which is pulls off well. The dialog wasn't stupid either. Two seasons ago, Oliver would have

Did anyone notice that the schematics Palmer were looking at were labeled O.M.A.C.? Nice nod to DC fans or future villain?

You can never tell with that stuff on Arrow.  They have so many easter eggs littered throughout the show.

I started watching this on Netflix and thought S1 was good, not awesome.  Now I'm at S2:e9 and I really, really like it.  I'm going to stop watching to catch my wife up on it, then watch from there.

Yes, by season 2, it had really caught its stride. It's stumbled in very small ways this season, but I'm still digging it.

Still not as hot as the first Canary. I do dig that Wildcat is her trainer, though.

Yeah, they can't all be Caity Lotz!

(http://fat.gfycat.com/HeftyEveryEarthworm.gif)

You can't possibly do the source material any more justice than that.

Absolutely. I cheered when that shit happened.

Arrow's not as good so far this year for me.  Loved the boxing glove arrow though!  Looking forward to The Flash vs. Arrow.  Should be good nerdy fun.  Getting Brandon Routh was a masterstroke, always felt like he got a raw deal from Superman Returns.  Now he's the
Nice that Felicity is acting like the bridge between Arrow and The Flash.  They ever kill her off I'm done with Arrow.  She purty.

I like Arrow's supporting characters better than the Flashes, BUT right now The Flash is the superior show.  Kinda weird.  But Arrow brings Arsenal AND Diggle now and soon Black Canary?  Geez Oliver, scared to go alone?

I prefer Arrow to the Flash still. The Flash just.. eh. It's getting better, but I just don't care as much about the Flash. Probably because I've never been a fan of the Flash and find a lot about the character stupid (the super hero character, not the Barry Allen character), and just prefer the normal-ish human vigilante approach more.

Arrow would be one of my favourite shows of all time if they killed Laurel, though. Such a poor character/actress. She ruins almost every scene she's in, at least for me. Still, even with her and the whole 'not killing' crap which annoys me slightly (sorry, but in a super-hero-ish universe.. you kill your enemies because there's a good chance they'll get free later and kill people.. and that is on whomever had the chance to kill them and passed) I enjoy the show a lot.

Arrow totally wins on the midseason finale.   :awesome_for_real:

Holy fuck balls,

That was pretty good but

Really enjoyed the mid-season finale. Much better than the Flash mid-season finale; just felt better acted, better paced.. and with actual stakes (even knowing Oliver's plot armour is thick enough to keep him alive no matter what).

Will be interesting to see how the keep him alive and such without it feeling incredibly cheap, but I actually feel like they'll find a way, as they've done a decent job in the past.

I don't see how they come back from that, even when it is obvious they will.  When is this show supposed to come back?

Early January I believe. 

It does seem likely that the events of the episode will result in the Canary taking the field to fill the hole...  I'm just wondering if they'll give her the voice or not.

As for Ollie,

all the way. I don't think you can complain when it's already been referenced a couple of times and is an integral part of the character (Ra's) and his mythology. Plus it ties to Mirakiru in some interesting ways--remember that Ivo said he was looking for originally, and the negative side effects of Mirakiru are more or less exactly the same negative effects ofin the comics.

That was my thought as well.

I had a little squee when I saw the A.T.O.M. exosuit stuff.

I can even guess why--

Finally caught up with the season. Tense stuff. I REALLY love Palmer, and whatever his purpose get into the plot has been fun. My guess is like yours here, the next few episodes (which start Jan 21) are:

Sad Felicity makes me sad.   :sad:

I have to think eventually she winds up melding them together because she is starting to realize if these guys fight alone they probably will die alone. So they need to not be alone and have backup sufficient for the tasks at hand.

I was pissed off that they showed  in the damn promos.

Otherwise good episode.  It was good to see the supporting cast carrying the show.

Did you...did you not see that coming? Like, ten miles away?

She already wore the wig and costume previously, all she added was the sonic toys.

Saw it coming but didn't know when or in what context. 

I do like Laurel; two episodes of drinking and she's a drunk.  Two episodes of pill popping and she's a pill head. 

At least she is consistent.  2 and you're good to go.

Well..

Yeah, that's about the only thing I do like about adding her in this role--she hasn't just instantly become a bad ass.

It's a delicate thing in general--there is only so much "training up" they can allow for any of Team Arrow before you undercut Oliver to a fatal degree. There has to be something that his five years of hell did to him and for him that sets him apart from everyone else around him, much as Batman is always a bit more than any of his Robins because of the way he became what he is.

I quite liked last night's episode because of this.  The B Team, sucks, they know they suck but they are out there trying.  I have never rooted for Laurel and the whole Hee Haw gang like I did last night. 

Of course, it helps that they have an absolutely helpless mayor and police force. I like how Ray Palmer at one point said, "Um, National Guard?" and nobody even bothered to pay attention.

Oliver's flashback wigs are getting worse, which I wouldn't have thought possible. I hope they're going to give him a pornstache and muttonchops at some point.

Yeah, and Brick isn't even a super criminal!  *boggle*

I'm not normally a big fan of grimdark but this show is pulling it off.  Laurel jumps onto the top of truck and nearly falls off, Laurel is barely even with street toughs, forget about beating Brick.  Her victory was saving lives and escaping Brick.  It felt realistic in the context of this show.

It seems like they are setting Felicity up to be the only person who knows who all the superheros are; she already knows two and will know the third.  I wonder if they are setting up a back door pilot.

I'd be Felicity's back door pilot.  :awesome_for_real:

Anyone else notice they changed the place where ollie got stabbed?

Looks like more of a mistake than a change.  The blood on the bandage is like 6 inches below the original stab area.

The bandage didn't cover the original stab area at all though.

FWIW, it appears that Starling City is somewhere in the upper Midwest, around Chicago or Detroit (or possibly Toronto). Flightplan from a few episodes back when they were tracking Merlyn, I finally got caught up.

--Dave

In season one they show a map, it's a west coast town.  When I read about it, I think it's supposed to be north of SF.  Central City is roughly St. Louis. 

The one thing I'm not clear about is why S1/S2 it was called Starling City, now they're referring to it as Star City.  I don't know enough lore to understand why.

Star City is the name in the comics. Starling City was what it originally was in the TV show, but Ray Palmer is spearheading the push to call it Star City.

I think they are setting up Felicity to be the TV show version of Oracle.

Yeah, she's been Oracle in her basic function since the first season, really, it's just becoming more official.

If they eventually spin off Firestorm and Atom and they're all hits, I think you can pretty much count on a few more following after that--or maybe a TV Justice League (or Justice Society, if they want to get cute). I'd keep my eye in particular on Dr. Fate if the Dr. Strange movie does well at the box-office, since I'm pretty sure that's why Ray Palmer and ATOM got the nod as an add-on to Arrow, as a way of getting DC's shrinking hero in the pipeline before Ant-Man shows up.

I'm doubting they'll put Dr. Fate in the CW-verse. His helmet has already shown up on NBC's Constantine.

I fucking love Dr. Fate and hate that I missed that little Easter egg!

Yeah, I saw a flightplan map that showed Starling City to be Toronto.  I guess it doesn't matter to the showrunners.

It was in the original teaser, which seems to have gone along with a pilot that was never aired (it had a different leading actress). So I don't know how much credence to put in an easter egg that never happened, as far as the current series is concerned.
Well, it would explain how Central City (normally considered a KC/St. Louis analog) could be a comparatively short train ride away.

--Dave

EDIT: Apparently, I am an idiot who didn't notice he missed the pilot. Still, doesn't seem to be much from it reflected in the series.

The pilot aired.  It was the first episode.

Routh's outfit as the Atom.

I agree w/Rob Bricken at io9: it actually looks good. They weren't afraid to put a little atomic logo on his helmet, even.

http://io9.com/brandon-rouths-atom-outfit-on-arrow-looks-almost-upsett-1683567563

Ya that looks pretty badass.  I am surprised they haven't just slated an episode for an Atom backdoor pilot.

So they turned DCs ant man into iron man? that's quite an upgrade there.

The suit is a mixture of OMAC tech and whatever he's doing. I'm not sure it's meant to shrink or not but it does look pretty damn good.

I think basically the one thing you have to count on is that nobody is going to wear spandex ever again in a super-hero film or series unless it's being played for laughs or it's animated. Not even Superman. It's all going to be armor or leather--to have an implied function beyond being colorful. Pretty much the Burton Batman films sent things inevitably in that direction visually, and Watchmen set them there narratively with its presentation of spandex-heroes as sex fetishists and weirdos. Not only are there just plain serious visual problems with spandex outfits in real life, I also think this is about stressing that superheroes aren't about public gratification or notoreity and they're not fetishists--they're people doing something that's pretty outre but also that's kind of practical, at least in their own minds.

Though one of the subtle implications here that nobody's really taken note of is that in all recent successful superhero franchises, there are no superhero comic-books. There can't be, otherwise everybody would be instantly saying, "Hey, it's that Flash guy, like those dudes in the comic-books.". There can't be superhero comic-books in the Nolanverse, or in the TV-DCverse, or in the Movie-DCverse or in the MCU. In every one of those settings, the characters have invented superheroes rather than looked at existing comic-books as their inspiration. That's actually another bit cribbed from Watchmen.

It felt like a bit of a stretch to turn the guy who is immune to everything EXCEPT arrows into a citiwide threat, but apart from that i really enjoyed the ollie-less episodes.  I hope they didn't kill boxer guy.

Did they ever explain, actually, why Brick shrugs everything off? It was established clearly in a number of scenes, but they didn't even really do the "he's just tough as hell" exposition.

It's actually annoying me that in the first episode when they got back together no one went:

"So guys, we shot him in the face and shot him with a couple of arrows and yet he brushed it off, what's up with that?"

He didn't brush off the arrows, the bullets bounced off but the arrows penetrated.  They even made a comment about it.  But yeah, not even a mention of why a guy is bulletproof is kinda weird.

Why don't he fucking die?

 :rimshot:

--Dave (google the actor if you don't get the joke)

... which is now canceled.  That is no longer an obstruction.

Yep maybe Supergirl will crossover too.   :why_so_serious:

The arrows penetrated but he still didn't act like he just took an arrow to the heart.  He just yelled, threw the guy out of the back of the van and yanked the arrow out (I think he yanked it out, forgot if they showed that).  By brushing it off I mean acted like it was no big deal.

Well getting stabbed right through the chest and kicked down a mountain takes about 3 weeks to recover from so a measly arrow just gets you a pat on the ass and a "walk it off".

I'm still kind of disappointed that the plan for Oliver surviving was "A guy comes and finds him and takes him to where his ex-wife secretly lives, conveniently close to where the League of Assassins does duels of honor, and she just uses some herbs on him."

I mean, Oliver was stabbed through the body by a very long-lived assassin, who presumably knows what he's doing when he tries to kill someone, and kicked off a mountain, falling enough of a distance to smoosh his organs into glue. I think something more than Ancient Chinese Secret is needed at that point to save you. The only way this is going to work really is if it turns out Ra's always meant for Oliver to survive, and so he stabbed him in a non-fatal location and put some mattresses on that cliff.

She wasn't living there Maseo told her to come, with him assuming Ollie would get wrecked by Ras, and they met at the League's cabin.  I think they needed to add a little by showing her healing Ollie though.  The only thing I can think is by saying things like "the area they are in is sacred to the League" is a way at hinting that there may be a Lazarus Pit around.  However that would only come across to the comic book nerds that know more about Ras.

I agree with you.  It feels fake and weird but maybe they'll address it beyond 'penicillin tea'.  

It was a good episode. I liked the return of Sin and her reveal to the detective.  Malcolm admits he's a killer, but his decision shows that Arrow is rubbing off on him.  Enjoyed his 'origin' story, that actor sure likes chewing scenery!  (Been binge-watching Dr. Who as well)

Felicity's dilemma was interesting, but it felt rushed, coming right after Ollie's return.  

Wasn't expecting Wildcat, so that was a bit of fun, surely they didn't kill him off.

As for Brick, I guess he has mild 'super powers' like Ollie and Arsenal.  He's a strange character, maybe he's from a comic or something.

Merlyn is evil Batman, basically he did what Batman did in Batman Begins and joins the league.  It's just that where Wayne didn't kill the thief that they wanted him to, Merlyn did.

The guy that plays Wildcat got cast on another show, so they are probably using this as a way for him to fade away.

And Brick is a metahuman in the comics but he's just supposed to be a normal human.. although a complete badass.  I'm assuming he's just really tough and maybe doesn't feel pain or something.

He got shot right in the face, it barely broke his skin.  When Roy put an arrow in him he said "i guess he is not immune to that".

The shot was a graze and not sure where you saw Roy say that. 

It looked like a graze because the bullet bounced off.  That was why he gave his henchmen guns before killing them and gave them a chance to shoot him, he knew they didn't have a chance anyways. They could not have made that any more clear really.

Umm no, it was definitely a graze.  I don't know how you can say he's that invulnerable when arrows can hit him and he gets pretty bloodied up by Wildcat.  He's just supposed to be a badass, but a human one.  Him giving the gun is because he's super confident in himself.  Plus, if Diggle is the first one to try for a head shot, then he's been just doing that maneuver with peons.

I actually like Brick. Keeps this show very "street level". We need the show to mostly be about badass normals with the occasional venture into the supernatural or high technology. So yeah while the B team floundered against Brick, I'm kinda happy we didn't open up the season with robot ninjas sent by the New Gods.

I agree that street level would fit the show but for some reason I'm really peeved off how getting run through with a sword can be cured with some tea and no hospital treatment fits into the narrative (I guess a perfect angle of the sword might miss both the lung and the liver but I'm not sure if that is even possible with a blade as wide as the one used).

and yes I am aware how it's just one particular detail I'm nitpicking over but for some reason it really bugs me.

It's interesting to try and devise good street-level bad guys who still challenge characters who are being portrayed as physical paragons with strong combat training. Especially when they also have a genius-level computer user/scientist working with them, and maybe soon also a multi-million dollar businessman and inventor. In some ways, Arrow is evolving into a show more like Doc Savage, where the team is as much the story as the main character.

Batman is pretty much the master-class example of how to do it.

*Characters who are schemers, plotters,etc.--where they set intellectual challenges that the physical paragon can't easily overcome
*Characters who are by their nature hard to confront or find: live in sewers or tunnels, are disguised as someone, are completely ordinary-seeming or have otherwise normal lives
*Characters who are obsessive and or mentally deranged to the point that they are impossible for an ordinary person to understand
*Characters who have political or social power that makes it impossible to fight them easily, even vigilante-style
*Characters who are a physical match for the hero(es).

The last one is easy to overuse, and generally results in having to up the ante on the hero's physical prowess or to have every fight be like the last match in a Rocky film, a sort of cliche of "he's down! wait, no he's up" etc.

Brick actually worked pretty well though as an example of that, partly because he also had a sort of schemer's intelligence. I just wasn't very clear what the source of his physical toughness was.

This is any villain's central advantage over heroesl. The hero can't really plan ahead because there's no way to know what the villain is going to do next, and even if the act itself is known there's still the question of when and where. Then the hero has to be there at that moment or the villain can simply leave... meaning most of what the hero does is cleanup duty.

Leveraging this is more about finding a satisfying moment for the villain to slip up, rather than worrying that the heroes won't be appropriately challenged.

We're getting caught up with S3, maybe six episodes in.  Just finished the Goth Felicity episode, and wow.  That was an awesome visual nod to Death from the Sandman novels.  Right down to the ankh.

There is apparently some discussion that an existing character may have a Super Hero role in their future...


If true, the entire Justice League could be right around the corner...  *if true*

That would be fucking awesome.

This is one of those situations I could totally see now that someone has pointed it out to me, but I totally did not see in advance.  I wish nobody had pointed it out to me and it was a reveal in the final scene of a season...

Yeah, actually. It's so perfect that now that I see it, I'll be really depressed if they don't do it. It would actually be a far better Green/Green team than the comics ever offered.

Though if they're having trouble handling the Flash in the same frame as the Arrow, GL is an even bigger challenge by far.

But I can see some highly constrained or limited versions of GL that might make for better storytelling anyway--something almost more like Mike Baron's Nexus character? Get weird visions and dreams from strange aliens about justice that needs doing, think maybe you're going nuts, have a weapon you don't really understand and that doesn't always work consistently? After all, so much of our minds actually don't operate off of conscious thought, a GL ring could be a bit of a curse if it was mostly interacting with subconscious or unconscious thought rather than conscious and deliberate will. Maybe that's what the "will" part is for--not for what it's used for in the traditional version, in focusing the GL's power and making his constructs strong, but in forcing yourself to control some of your unconcious and subconscious mind. I'd buy Diggle as a guy who could do that and yet no one on Earth could do it 24/7.

This is really starting to click for me. Honestly, their next series could be almost an anthology--there's Arrow, there's the Flash, and then there's the Tales of the Justice League. One week we check in with Atom/Ray Palmer, the next week with Firestorm, the next week with GL Diggle, the week after that with Zatanna or whomever they add next, with Felicity/Oracle being the shared element that keeps it altogether.

Keep in mind John Stewart was originally the backup Green Lantern, only given the ring when Hal Jordan was unavailable. They could easily have that happen to him for a 1 or 2-episode arc and then have him return to normal.

Eh, if you've got Diggle (or Stewart as he's developed, honestly), who the fuck wants Hal Jordan, who I think is almost invariably a dull character even if not played by Ryan Reynolds.

But yeah, they could do that too--have GL be Hal Jordan the space cop who almost never comes to Earth anyway, but who is incapacitated once and sends the ring to Diggle. That's a way to keep Diggle in the Arrow mix but give him a two-episode "very special" arc of some kind.

That could work - or just explain that Hal Jordan has been GL in secret for a long time and 'kill him off' so that Diggle gets the ring as John Stewart.  Maybe have Jordan be a former contact of his that called him by his middle name... which is revealed to be Stewart ...

It'd be real tough to do GL on a TV budget, but if they're tackling Firestorm...

We *have* seen a Ferris Air plane, after all.

Hal Jordon isn't dull. And he should never be played by Ryan Reynolds cause no. But John Stewart? Hell yes. Only because JL/JLU John Stewart is my favorite green lantern. I don't care so much about the comic book version of him though.

More importantly, I think Diggle as a character would make a good GL as his character already fits into the duty/responsibility issues that underlie a lot of the GL storylines: Where does duty end and personal responsibility take over.  I don't think they need to make a 'John Stewart' GL story out of Diggle - they just need to advance his story by making him a GL that they can echo with John Stewart trappings.

Enjoyed Arrow.  Glad to see Laurel going through her own crisis to become a hero.  I like this new Laurel, now to get her into fishnet stockings!  Thea was a nice surprise when the big reveal came. That was very welcome. Not too sure I like the direction they are going with Ollie and Thea, but we'll see how it pans out.  Poor Arsenal, that chump just can't win.  I would be very happy if the actor playing Diggle got a GL job!  When the Arrow was gone, now one in the supporting team had as much to lose as he does with the wife and kid and he didn't mope about it, he just did his job.

Roy needs a characterization boost in some way. Hopefully it won't be the original DC Comics version of shooting up heroin, though. Or worse yet ending up in an alley swinging a dead cat at hobos. Might be interesting if at the end of the season Roy ends up hooking up with Nyssa al'Ghul, which would be sort of a vague nod to his comics liason with Cheshire.

I'm glad the Arrow people are finally doing what the Flash cast has been doing all along, which is telling each other what they know. The only reason not to do that is because you're deliberately keeping a secret that's bad for essentially sinister reasons.

I am wondering if Oliver is waiting for Merlyn to come clean of his own accord with Thea or if it's yet another "secret I can't tell because because something bad will happen" thing.

They're adding a third series to the Arrow/Flash universe - A team up show with the original TV Black Canary, Firestorm, Atom, and at least 3 more heroes that have not been on screen before in live action.  No word on the 'Justice League by any other' name yet.  Interesting news, indeed...

I just started watching this. I saw the first few episodes when it first started airing, but have wanted to get back into it.

But Atom was just had his origin, how can he team up with original BC?  Wait, nevermind, this is the DC TV universe; folks die and get better from it all the time.  :oh_i_see:

I think the thing with current Oliver is that his crime fighting is based on the simple fact that he is the best fighter in the room. He is the smartest, the most tenacious, the man with the highest level of skill and the most to fight for. Without any of these assumptions...he's Roy or Laurel, something that psychologically Ollie will never be ok with.

I spent the last episode going "this is why nobody tells you a god damn thing Thea, jesus christ".

I get that Oliver needs to be the biggest bull in the room, but he should also be the smartest fighter by far among his friends. Taking Digg and storming a castle full of ninjas run by an immortal legend seems kind of low on the smart-fighter list. I genuinely assumed that Ra's was going to be up to something dire and Oliver was going to know it and that all of the fighting was about that. If it was just his ego, he should spend some time figuring out how to get Ra's in a mano-a-mano.

Plus what happened to the "I'm not a killer any more?" He might as well have dropped a few cruise missiles on Nanda Parbat before moving on to the hand-to-hand in terms of unambiguous kills dished out to ninjas, who don't even seem to be particularly bad ninja assassins as far as that goes. (So far I can't really think of anything especially awful the Arrow League of Assassins has done.)

I'm glad someone pointed out my one nawing complaint about the Arrow's League of Assassins... their not evil. There just implied to be evil. Like a symptom of the not very friendly world we live in. I get more the sense that these were the good guys before the the advent of modern western society and the relative morality that came with it. I mean they went after Malcom Merlin because??? He killed civies? Didn't the league threaten to kill civies to satisfy the vendetta against Merlin? I mean what makes Ra a super villain? Hundreds of ninja assassins that do what exactly? Being called The Demon? Not giving his thrown to his lesbian daughter? Offering Oliver Queen a job? I'm drawing blanks here.  

Thea and Laurel.

Thea no one tells you anything because you have the emotional fortitude of a toddler.
Laurel no one thinks you good things cause your not. You wreck anything you touch with high incompetence. Oliver cheating on you with your sister was a subconscious desire to run away, far away a lesson you need to eventually learn so you can stop being Laurel. For fucks sake. 

So do you think the pool Ras was bathing in was the Lazarus Pit?

I kind of see Thea's confession.  She does hate when Ollie keeps secrets so maybe it makes sense for her to deliberately spill the beans all the time.  

Lastly, I was surprised by Ras' idea for Ollie, that came out of left field.

Yeah the hot tub is the Lazarus Pit.

Oh god... :ye_gods:

I was sort of waiting for some bubbles to come up around him.

Once the offer to be Ra's came, I wasn't surprised at all--it just means they're going all in on Ollie being the same as the Batman who met Ra's (hairy-chested love god Batman, not yet borderline-psycho Batman).

TV-DC heroes sure do love their extrajudicial prisons, by the way. And they really don't seem to be into the idea of giving their prisoners anywhere to go to the bathroom or lie down or anything like that.

If the League and ARGUS aren't in cahoots in some way, I'll eat my hat--it's the only way for the flashbacks to make much sense. (It might also be how Oliver gets Maseo to break with the League--if it turns out Waller works for Ra's or Ra's works for Waller and it also turns out that Waller was behind the death of his son...)

That's definitely the Lazarus Pit, and we'll definitely see the original Canary back if that actress is going to be on the not-Justice League show. And I'm totally betting it's due to the Pit. Or at least that Pit, because we know Ra's has others.

Oliver was being a dumbass this episode (not as much as Laurel or Thea but that's some stiff competition) but I can see where he was coming from. He said it himself in the conversation with Digg in the cell. He got beat and Ra's got in his head and he's gunshy because of it. Hell, the whole alliance with Merlyn wasn't about what was right, it was about Ollie getting his shit pushed in by Ra's. If Ra's can beat him, that means Ollie's crusade is doomed to failure because he knows there's somebody out that that can walk into his city and fuck shit up and Ollie can't do anything about it.

Yes, it's machismo bullshit but perhaps its also part of Ollie learning to be more Batman.

I hope he doesn't go total Batman.  I don't want 4-5 episodes of showing them prepare to take down a bad guy in one episode.   :why_so_serious:

S02E08 - I was an adventurer like you until I took an arrow to the knee.

I don't know why you're all assuming the Hot Tub is the Lazarus Pit when it is clearly ...

The DC movies will have nothing to do with the DC TV shows, unfortunately.

I think he was assuming the character was removed so that it wouldn't be old news when used in the film. I think that is flawed for multiple reasons... the primary one being that we have not seen the last of him on tv.

They already had to pull Harley and stick with her one easter egg.  Hell they used Cupid in her role this last episode.  It's Harley that falls for Deadshot in the comics.  Stephen Amell has even stated that DC is trying to keep their brands from being watered down.  Which is the reason why some characters have been pulled from the show.  The fact that Michael Rowe has stated that he doesn't have an ongoing contract with Arrow is also a bad sign of him returning.

Too bad no one gives two fucks about suicide squad.

Right, right, just like Guardians of the Galaxy was a no-name property that no one was going to want to see a movie about. No one at all.

The fan base for Harley Quinn alone will probably make Suicide Squad money.  Let alone the new Joker and Will Smith.  This might even be the biggest money maker out of all the non Supes/Justice League movies. 

That you have any faith in a dc movie after their track record is borderline insanity.

Oh I don't have faith in DC, but hey.. People liked Man of Steel.

It's not faith in DC that I'm reacting to, it's the idea that the Suicide Squad is so obviously a dumb, obscure property that it couldn't possibly succeed. People should know better by now on that kind of point.

I actually think a smart film starring comic-book villains (Suicide Squad, Thunderbolts) is one of the more promising superhero concepts for film adaptation in the right hands, really.

We've been doing the suicide squad for most of the 90s. Either it works really well, or we end up with the punisher, a guy whose story we've been telling since the 80s.

There's a lot of reasons GOTG worked which SS(Those acronyms)  can't replicate.  First off is James Gunn, who went a long was in making that movie what it was.  Second is the lighter comedic tone and wild characters like a plant and a racoon that make it 'fun' so you can then pepper in jokes.  It didn't take itself 100% seriously and it shouldn't have because it's a ridiculous concept, as ridiculous as...suicide squad.

David Ayer is writing and directing SS and his credits are fury and fast and the furious...also the cast of SS doesn't lend itself to anything but the current grimdark DC theme.

How is a group of supervillains compelled to go on secret-ops missions by a cynical US government sillier intrinsically than a team of people wearing their brightly-clad underwear on the outside fighting crime and calling themselves "Justice League", or a team of superpowered mutants, or a team made up of a billionaire inventor, a Norse god, a chemically-juiced supersoldier, a sexy Russian ninja, a guy with a bow and a huge green rage monster? Sillier than Zen monks with laser swords who use a mystical power to fight moon-sized space stations? Sillier than vampires? Sillier than zombies? Sillier than killer robots sent back through time to protect a world-destroying AI? Sillier than an alien that is a perfect killing machine?

Marc Guggenheim just verified that Deadshot is gone from the show and it was Warner Bros. call that they were no longer able to use him.  This is also huge cuz that means we may never see Deathstroke or even Captain Boomerang again. 

I'm sorry I don't keep up on these dealings can you explain what you mean by that?  Are they headed to DC movies or WB grabbing the TV rights back or?

Suicide Squad is being made and the movies get the trump card over the TV shows.  So Deathstroke, Deadshot, Capt. Boomerang, and Harley Quinn are no longer able to be used by the CW for Arrow and Flash.  Their reason being wanting to keep the "brand" strong and not dilute the characters.

So, what, are they going to cancel Flash once he's showing up in the movies?  That's just stupid on their part.   

Yeah i think Flash's only saving grace was it came out before the movies were finalized.  Or just use the Wally West Flash and not allow him on the TV show like originally planned.

It has nothing to do with the characters and everything to do with the team of people makin the movie. It's all semantics though because even while it will be man of steel levels of shit, just like manic steel it will make enough money to keep the ball rolling.

Not wanting to dilute the characters? Don't make the movie which will likely suck anyway. Will Smith is going to turn Deadshot into...well...Will Smith.

This is ridiculously bad news. If they take this approach... the movies could ruin the shows.

No, the movies WILL ruin the shows if WB Movies decides that having the characters in two places dilutes the brand. Knowing that they killed Deadshot simply because the movie people want to be special unique snowflakes makes me really stabby. Zack Synder and his group of grimdrak shitheads can eat a bag of dicks.

It's the "Bat-Embargo" all over again. Which turned out not to be even remotely necessary.

Thats really bad news. Is there really that much more money in shitty movies than there is in good TV shows?

I didn't even know that the movies were the reason they killed deadshot and it was already ruined.  The way they had him killed was dumb.  He knew there was no one left to shoot and didn't even try to run even though it was clear and he had no reason to be there anymore.

If they had to kill him, I'd just have used it as another opportunity to have Ra's show what a badass he is...

I really fear that they'll cancel Flash because of the movies.  

I don't really support the idea of fan petitions to try to save a show from cancellation - but I might get behind one that discourages the studios from running shows into the ground.  Does anyone know if they've started one to try to get WB to treat the movies and shows entirely separate and independent?

...and it is going to be massively hypocritical of them to have Superman appear in Supergirl unless it is the movie Superman.

Going in the other direction of things, they've just announced that Hawkgirl and Rip Hunter will also appear in the new team-up anthology show.

The totally hilarious part of that? They cast Rip Hunter already: it's Arthur Darvill. (Former Doctor Who companion Rory, if that doesn't ring a bell.) Cast as a time-travelling comic-book character.

The casting of Rip Hunter means that the Blue Beetle show that was in development is probably shit canned.  Although that mess did at least give us Brandon Routh as Atom, so all is good.

Beetle might be part of a show yet...

Hopefully it was shit canned.  It was at SyFy.   :awesome_for_real:

I could see Blue Beetle appearing on that show.

Having Hawkgirl and Rip Hunter on the show, though? That TOTALLY means they are going full nerd with it.

Brandon Routh had something seriously fucked up with his right eye that whole episode, it looked like he had pink eye.

I noticed that. How could you not?

Wait, I just now realized, why the fuck doesn't Atom shrink?

Because that's too expensive on the CGI budget?  :why_so_serious:

He's called A.T.O.M. but he's more like O.M.A.C. with a little of the original (also non-shrinking) Atom.

I would not be too surprised if one of the ramifications of his power eventually is shrinking under some circumstances. Just like I think eventually Firestorm might reconstruct atoms. I think they're gonna do it the way the comics often do it: when you need something new and different, when the plots are getting stale, get a new power.

"I have a 140 IQ." I actually sat up and said "seriously?"

TV writers think that is a hundred points above norm.

I thought this was a great episode.  I also love how Flash and Arrow are different enough that I don't feel fatigued or tired of the superhero stuff because of it.

Yeah, I think this did a lot to tie stuff together and make some of the disjointedness of previous episodes pay off. The thing is that Captain Officer Detective Lance is pretty much right:

Well to be honest street heroes never do much more than put a dent on crime. Batman can fight superman evenly and defeat darkseid with randion bullets, but he can' t make gotham a safe place to walk at night. Or get rid of organized crime, or put away dangerous criminals without accidentally on purpose killing them... which of course batman doesn't do. And batman is the pinnacle  of peak human vigilante street heroes. So the theme of A for effort, but not really because these super freaks are now everywhere.

Say what you will about the CW, but at least the shows seem to have some permanent progression.

Except for supernatural  :awesome_for_real:

Purgatory is appropriate for that show.

Also, by the way, it's pretty damn clear as of this episode that the Atom will eventually have some kind of shrinking powers. I really like that they take their time with mythos-building.

I think the CW supers shows should be applauded because every season finale has been a status quo shakeup of some kind. As a result, the shows haven't gotten into any sort of stale formula (though Oliver's continual "not telling someone because it might hurt them" thing is becoming a bit formulaic). They've basically decided that Oliver is going to be the stand-in for Batman (dark, brooding vigilante, Ra's Al Ghul wants Oliver to take his place). I'm cool with that.

That's one of my main gripes.  "OMG Becky didn't tell me Kyle liked me cause Becky likes Kyle."  But that's CW I guess.  I also don't like how everyone knows about Oliver.  But we'll see where the writers take it.  And I am also glad they finally mentioned some 'shrinkage' to Ray's character arc.  Also, I don't know why they keep having the Hong Kong flashbacks since they only last 20 seconds or so.  I know it serves a narrative purpose to Ollie's current predicament of the week, but it's getting bad.  Shadow's twin.  Geez.

Weellllll, there's Batman 'in the real world he cleaned up the streets and created a sustainable market environment where everyone felt empowered and then there's Batman 'he's the cash cow so we better keep throwing villains to fight because comic readers keep getting older and getting married and their spouses want them to ditch all those moldy comics'.

Or said another way: Batman as a story telling device can't solve root-cause problems, because then there's no story to tell.

I love Brandan Routh in this show. He brings a Flash-like fun/optimism to an otherwise emo-of-the-week cast. He'll shrink at some point. I'm comfortable with however long it takes for them to get there. I'm not looking for movie-per-three years pacing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XE_jH2eQl4

Pretty awesome promo for the final Arrow and Flash episodes.   :drill:.

 :Love_Letters:

Awesome.

Lotta fun.

Really liked this last episode.  The Atom stuff and the ending was awesome.

Yes. Though it looks like finally the Lazarus Pit is coming into play.

Basically if they want Oliver to be TV-DC's Batman, this is a role that comic-DC Batman's fallen into pretty well: the loner who works with groups, the anti-team guy who trains teams, the guy whose motivation is so intense that it motives others but who also annoys others because of the intensity.

In addition, a jerk who sooner or later walks out of most of his relationships with other people because they don't do exactly as he tells them to do.

Well that was a great episode. I wonder how next episode will play out based on the preview. Agree re: laz pit

Crap I hate being behind by a week or two. That video promo was great. CW has nailed the shows, I wish DC would just continue focusing there, especially after that leaked trailer...

Wow, that was a good episode, even if the Arrow never showed up.  This season has been a bit weaker from the previous, or maybe it's because The Flash is so entertaining it's obscuring Arrow. But a nearly pitch perfect episode with Roy and Thea shockers and Ollie learning to lean on his friends. 

God created women, and than he created Felicity Smoke.

And the congregation said AMEN.

Individual story beats are really off throughout this season. I sort of like what they've been trying to do overall but there is some really bad sequencing of reveals/actions/reveals/action. This episode was a case in point of that. Don't let us in on Ollie's real state of mind before we get to the final sequence! It robs it of any suspense whatsoever!

I have still enjoyed this season but I think the whole Ras stuff has been kinda meh.  He's definitely not as fun as Deathstroke was last season.

We needed to have a sense halfway through the season of the cruel and evil Ra's who has shown up near the end. Waited too long to make him a genuine antagonist.

They probably had to stretch it out while the DC big wigs decided on how much they could do.  Apparently they aren't using Ras/League of Assassins in the movies any time soon.   :oh_i_see:

So far the Lazarus Pit doesn't seem to have changed Thea despite all the dire warnings.

They even wimped out and made it so she was never officially dead first either. 

I think we're supposed to forget that they promised an impact from the pit - so that when she does something shocking we're not expecting it.

Maybe on the flash but the arrow writers don;t get that kind of credit for foreshadowing.

Well she does have the Arsenal uniform now, and some training.

I think this season has had some good moments but the take Ra's place story hasn't really worked out well. Plus there's been entirely too much melodrama around the events. Even the end of last week's episode wasn't very suspenseful because we knew they were a red herring, which was confirmed 2 minutes later when we see the trailer for the finale.

We saw Amell's panel at Philly ComicCon last weekend and he pretty much came out and said, "with this many episodes in a season, we're kind of struggling not to repeat ourselves". I think that wasn't an issue in Seasons 1 and 2 but you can really see it here--a lot of convoluted moves designed to defer or delay the final plotline.

They need more villains. Or maybe break the season up into two major villain arcs as opposed to all of it leading up to one big bad.

Of course, I've never been a huge fan of Ra's Al'Ghul as a villain anyway.

Agreed 100%.  They should drop this concept of 'season storylines' and be more organic.  They can have three or four separate storylines playing out over a season, even. 

Yeah, I don't think the character benefits from a "Big Bad" by comparison to Flash. I don't mind the idea of a common theme for a season, but that takes some skill from the writers. (I suppose you could say that this season has been somewhat about the consequences of lying.)

Really solid season finale.. 

I enjoyed the finale despite

They are comic book villains thats how they roll.

OK - there are enough references floating throughout the seasons of Flash and Arrow ... I'm calling next season as the Season where we get Green Lantern - and I'm hoping they do it with Hal Jordan handing the ring to John Diggle (as we discover his real dad's name was Stewart)... There have been articles on the idea already, but I think they're setting it up.  Arrow goes full Super next season.

I dunno, I think they are pulling our leg on the GL thing.  I really don't see how a GL character wouldn't just totally outclass Green Arrow in everything.  I'd rather see him become like Guardian.

The Flash outclasses Ollie in everything... and Batman in everything... yet doesn't. 

I could see them introducing GL alongside GA.  The characters were partnered for a long time in the comics and it would be a nice nod to the comics as we move from the Longbow Hunteresque era to embrace the trick arrows and super heroics era where the show has moved...

I think Arrow followed the Iron Man moderl pretty well.  Start grounded with a battle against a guy in armor and slowly transition to wars with enhanced humans, aliens and robot armies...

So what are all this Green Lantern nods i keep missing?

The problem is not GL in that universe, it's GL on the Arrow specifically.  As we saw the Flash could take on the entire league of assassins in less than 5min if he really wanted to, I can't imagine GL having much harder of a time.  Arrow only works so long as he is fighting Arrow level villains, remember he's just a batman stand in and generally batman is not fucking around with superman's villains.  Could they make GL it's own show with Diggle starring? Yes definitely but it might be a bit of saturation.  I just don't think they can add GL to Flash or Arrow and not crowd them out.

I think at this point, when a movie for a lesser known property like Suicide Squad is making characters off limits for TV, they were very lucky to even be able to do a Flash series. I'm not sure they'd be allowed to do anything with GL now. GL's powers also aren't the easiest to do on a tv budget.

Tv version of John Stewart would be awesome. I think Arrow is the perfect show to do the Green Lanterns justice. The idea of a space military 80% hope and justice, 20% wtf Guardians, fits so well with John Diggles character it writes itself. Also pushing Green Lantern gives the show the extra push it needs into the fantastic and with it comes Green Arrow.

Read some interviews... they are going more super and less street vigilante. What fit in seasons 1 to 3 is not necessarily what will fit in season 4 or 5. Go back and read what was said about Flash on Arrow.... look at the clip of the pilot from Legends of Tomorrow. It is a new era.

Threash, the references to a disappearing pilot from Ferris Air was the most recent smoking gun. I am pretty sure we'll get some payoff from the GL references...

Legends of Tomorrow is a shorter season and even then Atom and Firestorm are the only members of the team with flashy powers. Aside from that you've got a martial artist, a woman who can fly, two guys with high tech guns, and a guy who travels through time but is otherwise non-powered.

Going more super and less vigilante seems to be exactly what they are doing on legends and exactly why Oliver will be the green arrow next season BUT having any super sharing a show with oliver immediately overshadows anything he can do.  Fuck, the flash could have solved the entire season in ten minutes if he wanted. 

Introducing GL on arrow is fine and if they do it, it'll be on arrow cause diggle,  however I doubt they would keep him on that show in the long term.

Amell has said that Coast City is going to be one of the main locations for season 4 and that he won't be Green Arrow til probably going into season 5.

You know, he can be Arrow anywhere BUT Starling, really. Which could be interesting. They have got to figure out how to fix the flashbacks, though.

One fix: Stop them. He could go back to the island to do penance and then give one more flashback to show why he decides he is ready to return  and become a mass murderer.

That's the main problem I have with the flashbacks.  We know he gets worse only to get redeemed later but that redemption is already in the past.  The flashbacks are taking him down a dark path from which he's already recovered but with each passing season the character is farther and farther away from it making the constant transitions to his dark past even more jarring.  The flashbacks are by far the worst part of the show and a plot device they should have dumped after season two.

After this season, I really hope they cut down on the flashbacks a lot. They just weren't very good or interesting in most episodes, and for as much as they were a part of the episodes, you could have taken them all out and compressed them into one flashback episode and been better off. Going more super in a different city seems like a really good idea. I thought it would have been a great series finale, as I wondered where they could go from there. And yes, I'll eat my hat if we don't see Green Lantern in some form by the end of season 4.

Unfortunately, I think the flashbacks are intended to go 'real time' with the show and are intended to cover 5 years... so we may get 2 more years of him getting back on the island and then suddenly going dark in the season finale flashback from Season 5.  I think it'd be hilarious for them to keep the flashbacks going in season 6 with 'b side' stories that took place during the first season but were not shown on screen.... Ollie getting ice cream.  Ollie making arrows.  Ollie finding a tailor to make his outfit.  Ollie catching up on a few years of sports news. 

We know he learns to speak Russian and how the Russian mob operates, at any rate. But I think unless they can make the flashbacks a kind of gonzo fun again, they have to drop them.

I'm also hoping they don't really mean that Damian Dahrk is a "big bad" for next season. I was struggling to remember the character at all and then I remembered that he featured in a few early Ra's al Ghul stories in Batman, more or less as an introduction to the League of Assassins/Ra's. Totally uninteresting character.  The only interesting part of the Ra's al Ghul mythos left is really Deadman and Sensei--Deadman would actually work really well in the Arrowverse.

I agree they need to stop the flashbacks.  This whole League storyline was a letdown after seasons 1 and 2.  Bit of a slog.  But at least Ollie exited the season happy.  For the love of god.  I've always liked Diggle, and if they are setting him up to be Green Lantern then that will be really great. 

Malcolm's surprise twist was pretty cool, as was Ray's.  I admit I'm a bit on the fence with this show, but maybe they are going lighter.  Also I have to watch it so the Flash's crossovers make sense.  They also need to drop all 'secret keeping/breaking trust' themes but it's the CW, there's little chance of that.

Liked it overall, but after so much of grimdark, I don't at all buy Oliver Queen actually being happy, and really thought it was hamfisted how he had to come out and say it. What, the convertible, smart funny hot girl, and driving along the coast in beautiful weather weren't enough to imply that?

I do love the cross overs, but how Flash blew through Nanda Pardat bothered me. Sort of the Superman problem when everyone else in the world is mundane.

I was also out of sync. I thought the episide where they beat Wells was the season finale (would be typical of that show to end that season on a positive note), but catching up on the other thread I had to stop reading. I didn't realize the beat-Wells episode was before Ollie returned to his city with Ra's.

Finally, I agree with others that a few things need to change:

• Fun flashbacks again. They still have two more years of them before the flashbacks catch up with S1E1 I think.
• Trust shit. One season is fine. Two was a stretch. Three's getting bothersome.
• Whiny Laurel. I liked her this season, she's almost there.

I get that it's hard to keep things interesting without unlimited budget for choreography and SFX. But it's becoming a soap opera. That's typical when the ideas run out. But they have decades of source to pull forward. It's difficult but it's not like they need to make it all up from scratch.

Green Arrows better or worse stories depending on how you view him, is the soap opera. The show didn't really pick up until the actual drama started and bee n pretty much carried by the show pushing the interactions between the cast. Except Laurel..... I mean she is the BEST of her type so she doesn't drag the show down as hard (and she is mostly counter balanced by Felocity  :drillf:) as say Lana or Iris (i'm really hoping they do something with her where her grief gets her off the damn show).

/sigh

Talking at MCM London today, Thea Queen herself actress Willa Holland revealed that the show's producers originally had big plans for Harley on the show - but were shut down due to David Ayer's upcoming "Suicide Squad" movie. She tells MTV:

"Pertaining to all the movies that are being made and stuff like that in the comic book world, it's also taken a side away from the TV shows. Because we had the Suicide Squad and these things inside of it, ARGUS. We were going really heavily into that for a minute.

And then, something must have come down from DC or some higher-up above that said 'No, you must cease and desist because we're going to make it into a movie and we can't have anyone spoil that idea.' We did get to see that little pigtail and the ARGUS uniform and the little treat of Harley Quinn, and it just got ripped away. So if we could actually have Harley Quinn on the show, that would be amazing. But it's never going to happen."

DC/Warners has been doing this for a long time now--their suits are apparently convinced that two versions of any character in any programming is too confusing for audiences. It's why Justice League Unlimited wasn't allowed to use Batman villains past a certain point, for example.

It's woefully stupid. I think they're using their own confusion and dimwittery as a guide to "the audience".

Fuck the Warners movie people. Fuck them in their earholes.

To be fair: How screwed would they be if the TV versions were better than the movie versions?  The movie people would get hammered...

Of course, they're already screwed if people walk away and say that TV Arrow is a better Batman than Affleck, if Supergirl is a better Super than Superman, if the Flash is cooler than Wonder Woman, and if the TV Suicide Squad they murdered was better than the movie version...

I'm fairly confident that will be the case anyway based on what I've seen out of the movie fucksticks so far.

It's official.. Green Arrow. 

(http://i.imgur.com/oNOeEcU.jpg)


Also Comic-Con highlight reel. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txwI81Gs7SQ)

It looks like Matt Ryan may show up on Arrow this season if they can get things worked out with DC and his schedule. 

He looks cool as shit.

It's about time, everyone else on the show had a cooler costume than him.

NBC might be the bug in the pickle jar. 

The contract with NBC for the show may not be completely killed by cancellation of the show, and it could have terms that limit the use of the character that survived the cancellation.  Also, even if the contract language didn't give them rights to stop it, the threat that NBC might sue, even without contract grounds to do so, may make it untenable. 

NBC's blessing would probably be necessary, and they could withhold it unless they can get some concession - although they might give it just to foster good will.  Who knows.

I doubt NBC has anything to do with it considering the show was being shopped to other networks.  Anyway it was the producer of Arrow that said it was up to DC.

That isn't exactly what I saw.  The quote I've seen:

“Yeah, we really want to do it. It’s something we've been talking to DC about and it's just a question of some political things, but also the actor's schedule. We're trying to work it out, but we don't know 100 percent if it's going to happen But we're really optimistic and we would love to have him.”

They're talking to DC, but it isn't clear that all the politics are in DC's control from that quote.  These deals are not simple.  We'll see.

Matt Ryan confirmed to show up as Constantine on at least 1 episode of Arrow this season.   :awesome_for_real:

They've said the Legends of Tomorrow cast evolve. I'dove to see him go there... and with Constantine comes Specter and Dr. Fate, potentially.

Well, both were foreshadowed pretty heavily on the NBC series, so I don't see why they couldn't add either character.

Give me a cool Dr. Fate goddamit! 

Diggle has become Blackneto!
(http://cdn2-www.superherohype.com/assets/uploads/gallery/arrow-season-four/coajnvmvaaa3itd-png-large.png)

Jesus, I thought that was like a Photoshop Friday joke. Holy fuck.

4th season trailer.

I dunno.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/herocomplex/la-et-st-arrow-season-4-trailer-20150904-embeddedvideo.html

What's not to like?

Other than Digg's helmet, I'm cool with everything I saw.

Damian Dahrk is not doing it for me.

Was nice to see Constantine though.

Ok, Damian Dahrk is actually pretty good. Better than Ra's al-Ghul as a big bad.

Mostly a pretty good start to the season. Makes me realize how patchy and weak last season really was. Never found its ground.

I wonder if losing the Suicide Squad people changed a lot of last season.  There was supposed to be a big story line for them.

I like the actor playing Damian. When he's allowed to really ham up the evil, he's pretty good at it.

Interesting note, he has voice acted as both the flash and the green arrow in the past.

Holy crap, he was fantastic. DUM DUM DUGAN IS A MAGICAL BAD GUY NOW AAAAAA!!!

I was skeptical about Diggs' helmet, but seeing him in action, it's not bad. Not great, but it doesn't detract from the character at least.


Overall, the first episode worked for me. The dialog is a bit more Whedonesque, which I appreciate. (Is "Whedonesque" a thing anymore?)

I liked it.  Especially liked how Digg kept saying he had to go 'he had a wife and child at home'.  Yeah we get it Digg, you're a real adult!  LOL

No but good stuff mostly.  New bad guy is interesting with his cabinet of Dr. Caligari.  Looks like mystical powers are entering the DC verse.  Well more overt than Rhas' super ninja-karate-mystical kung fu.

Only stumble; Ollie gets off the island then Hong Kong and he goes to...Coast City?  dafuq?  Laughed at that one.

Was an amusing Easter Egg in Coast City by the way, if you looked carefully.

I just figured that he felt ashamed at the shit that he had done and didn't want to go back to his family.  Hence apparently being The Hood and fighting crime in Coast City to redeem himself somehow.

True, but I was amused thinking back to the island with all of his angst to get back to Starling City.

It is still like 2-3 years away from the first episode in the flashbacks though.

The whole John Constantine stuff felt really rushed and didn't do any favors for the character's future prospects when it comes to television (or movies).  :oh_i_see:

Rushed and cheap. Didn't feel remotely 'special'. And that was possibly the least magical presentation of magic I've ever seen, and the dullest representation of a trip into the afterlife ever.

I agree that it was VERY rushed, but I still like that they used the actor for the character, and for the most part, got him completely right.

As for Constantine's future in TV - there isn't any. If someone hasn't picked it up by now, they aren't going to, not with this actor. I just hope they bring him back on the DC shows every once in a while.

He looks and sounds like Constantine but if they're going to use him again, it should really be as the con man, plotter and magnificent bastard version of the character, not as Mandrake the Magician.

I haven't read the Constantine books. However, I love the way this actor approaches that character. I watched that and immediately wished the CW would pick that series up and run with it. Or hell, buy the character from NBC and have him as a recurring character on another show. Something. I want more of that character.

Legends of Tomorrow is supposed to have a bit of rotating cast.... Constantine could go there so day if the stars align....

I could easily see Constantine getting a guest spot on Legends.

Is it just me or is this show really starting to suck?

It's never been wildly consistent but with last season some and this season a lot they just don't seem to be able to set a tone or figure out what kind of story they're telling. This isn't yet "Fun Liberal Oliver Queen Green Arrow" but damned if I know what the character really is at this point. He isn't even really the alpha dog of his own pack, unlike Batman with his little army of hangers-on, where you know that Batman is the BFG of the group and everybody else is not quite at that level. I don't get the sense that Ollie is the guy they all have to turn to for strength or support or leadership. I also think he lost a bit of something important when he lost that sense of being the sole survivor of five hard years--he's not doing the salmon ladder thing, and he's mostly just batting eyes at Felicity.

Felicity might also be the problem--she's gone from being amusing and cute to being actively fucking annoying. Diggle too has become kind of just a mess of contradictory story-telling hooks. Thea might be the only character who is making some degree of sense.

Star City *and* the Island also make almost no sense as settings--the world-building here is really starting to fall apart, after a pretty good first two years.  Why put Oliver back on the same island for these flashbacks? It would make as much sense to put him somewhere else that's crazily isolated.

He had to go back to the island at some point because that's where he's picked up at the start of the series.

The only thing that's really bothering me about this season is the inconsistency in the fight scenes. There seems to be a lot of "wave at and dance around each other" fights and then they go and drop something like the Speedy fight with Diggle's brother that had some really good cinematography.

I'm losing interest in this show as well.  Also thought they've had some good fight scenes lately, but the return to the island and dredging up old story lines (Digg's brother) is wearing on me.  Also think maybe they are sliding a bit due to introducing all their cool new characters for the Legends show.

Starting to feel bloated.

Thinking about it more, the focus on one big overall villain is probably hurting this show a bit too. If everything is just one long march to the inevitable finale against this big bad, it kind of lessens the impact of other episodes. I don't think they should go back to freak of the week type shows, but a nice 2-3 story arc about one villain not remotely related to Dark might be good. That's what I'm hoping for out of this Vandal Savage crossover thing.

I wouldn't get too excited by that, since Vandal Savage is the main bad and drive for Legends of Tomorrow if the trailer was anything to go by, so expect more of the same. 

...but we know he leaves it, or at least interacts with some people from off it, a lot more before he gets picked up.  The Russians.

Well that was unexpected. 

I'm wondering if it is a fakeout.
It'd be a cheap thing to do, but not a surprise.  

Well, according to the showrunners it's for keeps.

Also, they can be playing the long game and know they're lying when they say

I immediately thought it was a fakeout.

... and lazy writing. If Darkh wants to kill her, why stab her there? Why not in the eye/brain? Or heart?

This is not their best season. Both the island and the main story have felt like they're stalling....

We've stopped watching, because I don't think it's stalling. I think they legitimately have no idea where to take these characters now.

The thing is, Oliver isn't the unquestioned leader of the group any more. It's as if Batman trained all the people around him and suddenly everybody was as good as him and nobody really had that much of a purpose any more. And Batman lost his drive when that happened.

Oliver doesn't have anything that's really pushing him or motivating him to be better than everyone. Nothing makes him exercise fanatically, practice archery so he can be the best, eats away at him. He's doing the vigilante thing out of duty, because he's supposed to and because why not, it's kind of fun. And that's because the showrunners don't know what makes the character tick any longer. First they used the whole dad-told-me-to-save-the-city thing; then it was the power of all the secrets Oliver was keeping and the secrets being kept from him and the danger of a rival who knew him intimately; then it was vengeance. And then? Then it was, well, nothing really.

The show has always had laughable plotlines and confusing arcs, but it had a kind of raw fun to it from about mid-Season 1 through Season 2. It feels now like something that ended a while back but doesn't know it yet.

I think part of it is that Dark isn't really that interesting a villain. Neal McDonough is enjoying playing him but there doesn't really seem like the character has much meat. The whole vagueness of his plan and "Genesis" doesn't help, and having to stretch the whole thing out to a whole season and tying it into both the flashbacks and other "villain of the week" stories also hurts it. There needs to be more baddies in a season that are 1-3 episode problems that aren't tied to some overarching season long plot. Those kinds of things only work if the villain at the end is actually compelling. Dark is not. He's too powerful on an individual level and the HIVE/Ghosts are too much disposable foils for meandering fight scenes. A lot of the fight scenes feel forced without any real purpose, almost like the weekly car/motorcycle chases that infected the last few seasons of Sons of Anarchy.

So the season ended for this and the only thing I could think of is how awful the bad guys are at shooting. You'd think that the multitude of bullets fired from assault rifles all season long would have actually managed to hit someone...  :uhrr:

Shooting? like how when the Hive soldiers show up to fight with Darhk at the end against the civilians and instead of shooting they run up to melee?

Maybe they thought that since they can't hit anything with their guns they'd do better in close combat...only to be beaten by your average civilians in that too.  :oh_i_see:

This show has gone so far downhill. It is really a disappointment.

It's slid so far that the Arrow subreddit has re-themed to Daredevil.

https://www.reddit.com/r/arrow

Having never watched the show this thread is quite the rollercoaster.

Yeah, there were a lot of Stormtrooper Shooting Range moments in the last two episodes. Not sure where they go from here - whether the cast members whose characters left are just "off for the summer to get my head together" or whether they'll be back next season. I really hope they stop with the one villain each season arcs and go for smaller, tighter stories, with less pointless fight scenes with hordes of faceless henchmen. Some of the fights were more ridiculous than the parody fights on Venture Bros.

Amell hasn't been too happy with the last couple seasons either.  He feels that the show lost some focus while they were launching Flash and Legends.  Also the whole DC movie division stripping their Suicide Squad stuff away from them hurt as well.  He's more optimistic for next season as their aren't any new shows that are coming out and they have Geoff Johns in charge now of the DC stuff.

Supergirl is coming out.  Well not coming out exactly but coming in?

Yeah, but at least the show is established already.  Most of the work will be moving production to Vancouver.

I think they basically need to re-establish Arrow and his friends as a group of underground/in-the-shadows operators who aren't necessarily attached to a single city or place. There needs to be some set of threats that only they can deal with which they don't dare tell the other superpowered people about.

For example, go back to Eiling and Waller etc, and have them join an international conspiracy intended to infiltrate world governments and gain control over metahumans. Arrow and his pals find out about it, realize they can't let on that they know or go public, and so they find a genuinely secret base and go on a covert campaign to fight the conspiracy. Maybe they end up being framed for something, so you have a kind of A-Team thing going on that also limits their contact with the Flash, Supergirl, etc.  Make them a bit more desperate and ragged--they all feel kind of bored right now. You can sprinkle a few good street-level metahumans/costumed villains who might join such a conspiracy into the mix--the Shadow Thief, etc., and maybe even have a hidden big bad on the conspiracy's ruling council. (Ultra-Humanite, Thinker, or heck, Deathstroke).

But whatever they do, they've got to give Oliver in particular some kind of driving character motivation, and not just by fridging someone or blowing up part of Star City. It's got to be something equivalent to his dad's list.

Well they are doing the Oliver Queen as Mayor story next year.  I assume this will also lead to him coming out publicly as Green Arrow.  I don't see them moving out of Star City or anything though, that would be like Batman leaving Gotham... also in TV terms, expensive.

Star City is just such a painfully vague place, compared to Gotham. Oliver's strongest physical ties this point are to a not-dead guy's corporate basement that was his company for a while but eh, who cares? He doesn't have anything like Crime Alley, the show has more or less forgotten everything else that had any degree of mythic specificity about the city. It's just Generic City at this point. Ollie doesn't even really have a hang-up about it. His defining traumas happened elsewhere: on a boat, on an island, in Hong Kong, with a bunch of yet-to-be-met Russians.

Arrow Season 5 teaser. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxG7JR4-nCM)

Looking like a whole new team next year. 

Sad first half of a season.  They tried to echo the first season, but it was hollow... and the final "shock" of the midseason finale is something I was expecting.  So much wasted potential.

I thought this season so far has been a little better than last season if only because Prometheus works better for me as a villain than Damien Dark. It's still not as good as the second season mainly because the supporting cast is not as good - Wild Dog and Artemis are a bit weaker than Roy and Diggle, though I dig Ragman and Mr. Terrific. Horse-teeth reporter chick girlfriend though has got to go.

So, I recently picked this up and have been watching a few episodes a day on Netflix. When does the show go drastically downhill and is it worth powering through? I know there was a big falling out with fans of the show.

I'm currently in season 3 about 2/3 of the way through. It has gotten worse.. Laurel is annoying and shitty, Felicity can't stop crying/pouting/storming off/quitting, and Oliver just kind of sucks? I mean he pretty much gets shit on by anyone with any martial skill. At least Thea and Roy aren't terrible in comparison. Dig as always, seems to the rock, albeit the overly preachy and moralizing one.

4th season is where it kind of goes to shit. Even though I like the actor playing Damien Dark and the character has some nice quips, overall, his power level is out of whack and the whole storyline goes on too long and is too drawn out.

Finished season 3. It was OK. I'm sure Malcolm Merlyn won't be a total dickhole in his new capacity.  :oh_i_see:

The online ratings/reviews for season 4 are brutal. I am afraid.

Season 4 is a grind.

Bad start to this season.  Perhaps it is time to start winding this show down before it gets really, really bad instead of just bad.

They really need to have a Crisis-level Supergirl/Flash/Arrow crossover with the sole objective of purging all Laurels from all dimensions.