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f13.net General Forums => League of Legends => Topic started by: tazelbain on October 06, 2011, 10:24:31 AM



Title: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: tazelbain on October 06, 2011, 10:24:31 AM
1) SO with Dominion with people want shorter games.  For me I want shorter lopsided games.  Slaughter rule: when every there is an ace or baron goes down or an inhibitor goes down, the game counts player kills and turrets kills x 2 if the difference between the teams becomes extreme say 20+ the game ends.

2) Flash should be split into to 2 skills.  Assault:  flash close to a enemy turret or player.  Small AP and AD boost with a offensive mastery.  Retreat:  Flash anywhere but you can't damage or CC players for 15 secs. Small AR and MR boost with a utility mastery.  These skills use the same timer or only one can be equipped at a time.

Please post your ideas to make LoL better.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Rasix on October 06, 2011, 10:49:51 AM
1)  Per character keybinds.
2)  Stat tracking for normal games.  If there's a way to see more stats and get a better gauge for your winning percentage, k/d/a ratios, etc, I'm not seeing it.  This would be nice and helpful.  Match history doesn't go back far enough.
3)  Replay function in client.  Ability to save and watch replays.
4)  Flash gone or as an escape tool only.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: K9 on October 06, 2011, 11:01:27 AM
Getting rid of flash, or allowing people to ban a summoner spell in draft mode might be interesting to see. Perhaps turn Flash into an instant recall?


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Chimpy on October 06, 2011, 11:02:51 AM
1) Some kind of multiple-keybind system (Maybe saved sets instead of per-character)
2) Adjustment of camera-scroll speed that is separate from general mouse scroll.
3) Ability to adjust game client settings in the front end client.
4) Allow Dominion surrenders earlier (I got stuck in a 4v5 from the beginning yesterday, could not surrender even though we had no chance of doing anything).


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Nightblade on October 06, 2011, 11:03:07 AM
Getting rid of flash, or allowing people to ban a summoner spell in draft mode might be interesting to see. Perhaps turn Flash into an instant recall?

If it were as simple as getting rid of flash it would have been done awhile ago; simply cutting it out would cause people (High level) to play even more passively than before, and destroy the capabilities of certain champions.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 06, 2011, 11:26:43 AM
Flash as it is, is fine. The problem is so many other spells are fairly useless. Perhaps work on buffing others up and you wouldn't see people always picking flash


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Slayerik on October 06, 2011, 11:38:45 AM
Man, I remember when flash had a huge ass range.



Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: statisticalfool on October 06, 2011, 12:48:22 PM
1) Zoom out.
2) Integrated 'build' system: able to set, per character, multiple keybindings, masteries, recommended items.
3) Zoom out.
4) Flash only usable when out of combat for 3 seconds.
5) Automated group matching (to describe: you pick three roles you're willing to fulfill, and champs for each that you can play: the game auto matches you into a group with one tank, one ad, one support, one ap, one wildcard) pre picked, and you go.



Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: K9 on October 06, 2011, 12:50:21 PM
2) Integrated 'build' system: able to set, per character, multiple keybindings, masteries, recommended items.

This would be great

4) Flash only usable when out of combat for 3 seconds.

Wouldn't this render flash functionally useless?


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Slayerik on October 06, 2011, 12:56:15 PM
Well, it could facilitate escapes still...you know when you are running your ass off and the guy is close, but not THAT close. Then flash to safety.

I mean, I'd just take ghost instead.....


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: statisticalfool on October 06, 2011, 01:16:13 PM
4) Flash only usable when out of combat for 3 seconds.

Wouldn't this render flash functionally useless?

Actually, I prefer: hasn't taken damage in 3 seconds. Basically, I think Flash would be really well suited as an initiation tool: you can flash in on people. Sometimes it'll be useful defensively, but you can't guarantee a defensive flash unless you flash early/juke/get some distance.

I've heard the counter argument that this would be a bad bad idea, because defensive flashes let people play a lot more aggressively. I'm not sure I buy it.

I think there are some summoners spells that need buffs (Rally, Fortify, etc), but that bringing everything up to Flash will require a lot of work. Also, I think nerfing Flash will increase the number of teleports, and teleport ganks are awesome and fun.





Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on October 06, 2011, 02:20:15 PM

Probably just what-came-first bias, but I think re: Flash that DOTA had it right. Just make Flash an item that you have to farm. Early game ganks become far more effective, cutting into the super-tedious 'farm period' of most high-level games; late-game initiation and crazy-skill-flashfests remain in the game, with heros who depend on Flash for effective play prioritizing the item, while others pass it over in favour of a faster build to something else, etc.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Thrawn on October 06, 2011, 04:48:48 PM
Man, I remember when flash had a huge ass range.

Imagine playing a current game with Old Flash/Old Cleanse.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Strazos on October 06, 2011, 04:50:42 PM
Flash encourages gimped/sloppy play and positioning - I'd just as soon see it gone, as people escape from me with it far more often than I use it myself.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Thrawn on October 06, 2011, 04:57:12 PM
Flash encourages gimped/sloppy play and positioning - I'd just as soon see it gone, as people escape from me with it far more often than I use it myself.

Step 1, nerf flash so that it can't cross terrain (like Vayne's tumble).
Probably wouldn't need a a step 2.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Strazos on October 06, 2011, 05:06:46 PM
I'm actually OK with Flash crossing terrain, and wish Vayne could do so with her tumble since her range sucks and she's so fragile.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Teleku on October 06, 2011, 05:26:55 PM
Yeah, flash is pretty much a requirement to play.  If not for attacking, then for counter flashing to get away from heroes who try to flash in on you.  In all the games I play, almost every single person takes flash.  Its become a standard part of the game.  So either let everybody get it for free automatically, or get rid of the damn thing.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Mosesandstick on October 06, 2011, 05:42:52 PM
I think at this point the main problem with adjusting flash would be having to balance so many champions in response to that change.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Malakili on October 06, 2011, 05:54:18 PM
Its no surprise really.  Almost every single competitive game I can think of highly values mobility because it has a very high skill ceiling.  There is a reason, for example, why TF2 leagues see pretty much only demomen, scouts and soldiers (in addition to medics for obvious reasons).  The same reasoning applies here, Flash gives you an edge in mobility over someone that doesn't have it, and keeps you even with someone who does.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Megrim on October 06, 2011, 08:25:54 PM
1. Replay function,
2. Change Flash into a buy-able item, with a 3s no-damage conditional. Up range slightly,
3. Allow a player's Runes and Masteries to be viewed in-game,
4. Rework Ignite somehow,
5. Stop releasing every melee champ with a gap-closer, an aoe and a defensive skill. Especially the gap-closer part.

 * Edit, because I forgot a couple.

6. Rebalance wards. Put a limited availability on them, restocking by 1 every x minutes. Increase regular ward price and decrease stealth ward price and reduce their sight radius slightly,
7. Courier.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Mosesandstick on October 06, 2011, 08:56:19 PM
They'll just have CC reduction instead  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Furiously on October 06, 2011, 10:12:15 PM
Editable item builds per character would be the bees knees. Also a summoner skill to allow build items to be delivered via creeps or something. So you don't have to return to base. Course it would make consumables and wards a bit more powerful.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Furiously on October 06, 2011, 10:17:33 PM
Something in the ui which informs you when your daily 150 is going to reset.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: statisticalfool on October 06, 2011, 11:43:21 PM
Latency monitor in AIR client.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Rokal on October 07, 2011, 12:25:42 AM
To be honest, I'd love to see runes removed from the game. Alternatively, the game would be improved by having them free for all players so that it really was about customizing your character and not grinding for a minor advantage. If Riot needed to make sure there was a good IP drain so that the average player didn't buy every new champion and nobody ever had incentive to buy Riot Points, they could just increase champion IP costs a little bit. This would be preferable to leaving runes in the game.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: K9 on October 07, 2011, 09:53:29 AM
Hats


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Kirth on October 07, 2011, 10:38:44 AM
Hats

 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Ashamanchill on October 07, 2011, 01:42:19 PM
Aside from the 'can't use flash 2 or 3 seconds after being attacked, I would like to see some sort of diminishing returns on ccs, of the same type at least. Getting chained stunned is about as much fun as it is in any other game, which is to say zero.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: DLRiley on October 07, 2011, 03:38:38 PM
Its kinda funny in a forum where a good number of people are nostaglic over DAOC and half plays EvE that you guys are terranovabad at making suggestions for a competive game.

The first and only thin worth address is the "remove/nerf" flash suggestions that make no sense and ranege from  :uhrr: to  :ye_gods:. From the prespective of a mid level player, and knowig most of you are either mid to low level, flash impact is negliable. People are generally ignorant when it comes to this subject because flash is either blamed for the reason they died, or the reason they failed to get the kill. In either case, flash true relevance is in higher level games where the infrequency of ganks and team fights allows flash to be off cooldown in half off all engagements. This is NOT the case in mid level games at all, which combined with a lot of other things that plague low to mid level games, makes flash "just" another summoner skill in the long run no more responsible for the reason people lose or win a game.

But you will argue that flash allows for bullshit escapes, bullshit ganks, but do realize that mid level games are plagued with several problems that high level games, where clutch decision making happens less often, don't suffer from. To name them;

1. Ignorant/Bad champ picks
2. Bad team composition, due to bad champ picks or selfish picks
3. Horrible laning composition (how many games you played where champs like master yi and trynademere are laning together. if you had several of those games, your elo is possible in hell)
4. Bad position, ignroanc of the minimap, which plagues low level games and mid level games alike.
5. Ignorance of champs strengths and weaknessess in skirmish situations, accounts for plenty of deaths in mid level games
6. Poor/non-existant communication
7. Low reaction time

Because high level play doesn't suffer from bad champ picks and understand what laning composition means, the super passive bot lane farming phase hapens in relative peace because there is nothing major to take advantage of usually. Mid level games in comparison, there are ALWAYS weaknessess is the other teams composition to exploit, last hitting takes second seat to plain harassing the other team and zoning them out of the lane. Bad positioning, which hasn't gotten much better at the mid level, accounts for far more deaths and failed ganks then the use of flash. Where ganks are far more important at the higher levels of play due to low number of kills and team fights, how many times have you watched a 10:2 game in the first 10 minutes term into a fustrating lose for the team leading in kills early. If you been in that game, you are mid level player.

The point being is that the difference in skill level ad the style of play makes most suggestions to deal with the "flash" problem benfiet no one. Mid level play doesn't change, players will continue to die and lose games because of the various problems i listed. High level games however? Might as well remove SR and make Dominion the "real game". The game is far too passive to remove the one thing that encourages players to move beyond the river.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Mosesandstick on October 07, 2011, 05:18:49 PM
Hmm, think you might be wrong DLriley.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: DLRiley on October 07, 2011, 05:50:32 PM
Hmm, think you might be wrong DLriley.
Do tell.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: ezrast on October 07, 2011, 05:51:03 PM
He's actually not this time, not entirely. Most of the non-QoL suggestions in here are pretty bad; I only agree with 1) zoom out and 2) buff some of the shittier summoners.

In high-level games, if you gank someone and they get away with Flash, that is a successful gank because now they don't have Flash. Flash is what allows you to extend, initiate, and punish overextensions safely and effectively. It's a tool and a valuable resource, and knowing and managing what resources the enemy has at their disposal - which includes summoners, wards, jungle buffs, creeps, even teammates - is how high-level teams win games.

I don't know if this actually addresses people's issues or not, because nobody's actually said why they see Flash as a problem.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Mosesandstick on October 07, 2011, 06:14:28 PM
I don't have a problem with flash; I have a problem with people writing incoherent, incorrect, walls of text.

DLRiley's post quite clearly does not say what you just wrote. I'm not advocating what other people suggested either, I'm just pointing out that DLRiley's wall of text is full of shit. Flash is much more important at higher levels but it still affects a huge chunk of the playerbase. "Flash impact is negliable". How wrong can that statement be? How can he argue about problems with positioning when flash is the easiest solution to poor positioning (aside from its CD). What about "Low Reaction Time"? Is everybody who's not a high ELO player drunk?

If there is one "problem" with flash, it's that flash is nearly inherent in the game. Without it LoL would be a different game.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: DLRiley on October 07, 2011, 06:44:45 PM
Lolz high level games at this point revolve around flash in a way that mid level games dont. Play a game of Sr and count the number of kills. Now count the number of kills in any pro gaming SR match. If the number of kills is only twice as many as a pro game, Im wrong and your right.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on October 07, 2011, 06:45:11 PM
Strangely enough, not everyone said to get rid of Flash either.

I am sure having Flash from level 1 is not the only reason that early game competitive play is so incredibly boring -- but it's surely one of them. I agree that Flash is part of what makes the gankier mid-game more exciting, and allows for initiation and over-extension and all the rest. Mobility is great, it makes the game more exciting. Thus my suggestion to convert Flash into a buyable item -- the early game becomes more dangerous/ganks become more likely to succeed, and the mid-game remains much the same for the champs who really need it. But it also introduces some variety, since generally not every member of a team will buy it. Champs who are already mobile can either farm Flash to play to that, or parlay their advantage into buying a different item. Variety adds tactical interest.

Obviously I am inspired by DOTA, which uses this method and has been balancing and rebalancing the Flash Dagger for more or less ever. The difference in early game excitement between the competitive LoL and the DOTA 2 tourney I watched was really noticeable (though DOTA often has its own annoying farm-tastic lull in the mid-game, which tends to end in part when major initiators get their Flash Dagger -- which is an interesting data point as well, obviously.)
 


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on October 07, 2011, 06:49:53 PM

Also, DLRiley's rhetorical stance in that post pretty much amounted to 'you aren't good enough at this game to know how anything can be changed.' This is pretty much the same rhetoric employed in games when somebody is acting like an idiot and when you point it out they are like 'you're 0/4 shut up you noob'. You don't need to be a professional athlete to understand how sports work, and you don't need to be the twitchiest badass to discuss FPS weapon balance. One of the premises of this entire board is presumably that the people here are allowed to have opinions about shit in which they have only an amateur interest.

Of course that doesn't directly affect the actual content of what he said, it just makes me want to ignore it, the same way I ignore 'l2p faggot' from the 12-2-4 carry whose skill at the game has zero impact on his ability to be a civil human being.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: DLRiley on October 07, 2011, 07:36:38 PM
Meh Im the same level as the people "too uskilled to have a valid opinion", and flash removal or nerf wouldnt effect play at all. Fact is im mostly raging at the short sightedness of the suggestions, which amounts to "i dont want to face x, so remove it ok thx".

The existance of baron is what makes the mid game exciting.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: statisticalfool on October 07, 2011, 08:23:32 PM
Do you even read this thread before posting? Go look back at this stuff. This isn't a whine thread. There is a lot of talk about flash. There's one person mentioning getting rid of runes. There's a few "buff these summoners".

And then almost every other thing is quality of life stuff.

And when you look at the Flash stuff it's not "wah wah, can't handle flash", it seems a lot more: why is the summoner spell system "choose flash and another" rather than "choose 2 spells." ? If flash can't be tweaked *at all* without the game just breaking in two or becoming much more passive, then fine. People have suggested making it an item. You could even just make it like blue pill, always there for everybody. Choose two other summoners.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Megrim on October 07, 2011, 08:59:03 PM
I don't know if this actually addresses people's issues or not, because nobody's actually said why they see Flash as a problem.

 ->

Its no surprise really.  Almost every single competitive game I can think of highly values mobility because it has a very high skill ceiling.  There is a reason, for example, why TF2 leagues see pretty much only demomen, scouts and soldiers (in addition to medics for obvious reasons).  The same reasoning applies here, Flash gives you an edge in mobility over someone that doesn't have it, and keeps you even with someone who does.

ergo Flash is a problem.

Its a completely mindless get-out-of-jail free card which is available for free, 99% of the time (if you aren't silenced, or whatever. But this is also just about a non-issue because wards. Hence my ward rebalancing suggestions). To put things in perspective, DotA, which is an archetype for these kinds of tower-defence games, for a long time had the Blink Dagger as a purchaseable item with no restrictions on its use (beyond some trivial cooldown). This lead to whole teams, regardless of composition, mass buying it - because whoever could get more of them first would typically win most engagements. Eventually, with feedback from those same high-level teams, the item was changed to have some conditions imposed upon it, because everybody in short order realized that positional advantage is everything.

Which is why, when I wrote about rebalancing Flash I also wrote about every melee champ having a gap-closer: it blurs the line between ranged and melee, and turns every fight and skirmish into a giant center-o-the-screen clusterfuck, and it lowers the skillceiling for champion use. Amumu missed his bandage? Flash forward and ult anyway. Fiddle mistimed his Crowstorm? Flash, etc...


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Slayerik on October 07, 2011, 09:57:29 PM
Just give everyone one or two flashes.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: ezrast on October 07, 2011, 11:20:36 PM
I don't know if this actually addresses people's issues or not, because nobody's actually said why they see Flash as a problem.

 ->

Its no surprise really.  Almost every single competitive game I can think of highly values mobility because it has a very high skill ceiling.  There is a reason, for example, why TF2 leagues see pretty much only demomen, scouts and soldiers (in addition to medics for obvious reasons).  The same reasoning applies here, Flash gives you an edge in mobility over someone that doesn't have it, and keeps you even with someone who does.

ergo Flash is a problem.
That doesn't follow at all, unless you think that high skill ceilings are a bad thing. I'm also not sure how you think Flash can be used to "mindlessly" compensate for shitty positioning 99% of the time when it's up less than once every four minutes, and when it's usually better used to initiate or secure kills. I mean, you can use it to compensate, but you shouldn't - it raises the skill floor, not lowers the skill ceiling.

edit: raises, not lowers


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Megrim on October 08, 2011, 07:56:00 AM
I probably wasn't clear enough. Basically it comes down to either everyone having equal mobility, ala Quake (and the ability to exploit it forms part of what differentiates player skill), or making above-the-norm mobility, such as a blink-type ability on a hero who does not normally have access to it, a resource to be measured and valued. As such, the ability to control this resource then forms part of a player's skill. Do I spend money on being able to kill harder, or do I make myself more mobile to be able to kill in a larger number of situations? Just think of how much there is in power differential between an Annie who has Flash, and one who doesn't. If the balance orients itself around Annie as-is, versus other heroes as-they-are, then the introduction of an ability which can wildly swing the power ratio in one direction - it has to cost something.

The problem then becomes even more complicated if you begin to introduce characters with in-built flash-like abilities, because their whole kit has to then be balanced around the fact that they possess mobility which other heroes do not. To give another simplistic example; think of Kog'Maw and his ability to dish out really big damage from a distance. But he is balanced, in part, by not having any (real) means of escape. If he is targeted by a character who has an in-build gap closer, Kog'Maw can Flash out... but the other guy can do the same to chase, putting Kog at a massive disadvantage because he simply cannot, mechanically, get away.

And, it is precisely mindless because you said it yourself; is my Flash up every x minutes? If Yes, then I can play like a retard because I have a freebie. I don't have to care about my own skill level, or this skill level of my opponents. I just press button. Sure, an Amumu might want to save his Flash for  initiating, but what about the aforementioned Kog? Does he just get to push his lane for free and rice it up because he doesn't need to initiate?


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 08, 2011, 08:06:19 AM
Side note, flash is basically worthless in dominion.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Typhon on October 08, 2011, 08:26:40 AM
He's actually not this time, not entirely. Most of the non-QoL suggestions in here are pretty bad; I only agree with 1) zoom out and 2) buff some of the shittier summoners.

In high-level games, if you gank someone and they get away with Flash, that is a successful gank because now they don't have Flash. Flash is what allows you to extend, initiate, and punish overextensions safely and effectively. It's a tool and a valuable resource, and knowing and managing what resources the enemy has at their disposal - which includes summoners, wards, jungle buffs, creeps, even teammates - is how high-level teams win games.

I don't know if this actually addresses people's issues or not, because nobody's actually said why they see Flash as a problem.

Disagree. Zoom out breaks the game and I'm not sure why.  I think it's because you lose connection with your character.  The game just seems much less exciting.  If you have played Demigod you'll know what I mean.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: DLRiley on October 08, 2011, 09:18:14 AM
I probably wasn't clear enough. Basically it comes down to either everyone having equal mobility, ala Quake (and the ability to exploit it forms part of what differentiates player skill), or making above-the-norm mobility, such as a blink-type ability on a hero who does not normally have access to it, a resource to be measured and valued. As such, the ability to control this resource then forms part of a player's skill. Do I spend money on being able to kill harder, or do I make myself more mobile to be able to kill in a larger number of situations? Just think of how much there is in power differential between an Annie who has Flash, and one who doesn't. If the balance orients itself around Annie as-is, versus other heroes as-they-are, then the introduction of an ability which can wildly swing the power ratio in one direction - it has to cost something.

The problem then becomes even more complicated if you begin to introduce characters with in-built flash-like abilities, because their whole kit has to then be balanced around the fact that they possess mobility which other heroes do not. To give another simplistic example; think of Kog'Maw and his ability to dish out really big damage from a distance. But he is balanced, in part, by not having any (real) means of escape. If he is targeted by a character who has an in-build gap closer, Kog'Maw can Flash out... but the other guy can do the same to chase, putting Kog at a massive disadvantage because he simply cannot, mechanically, get away.

And, it is precisely mindless because you said it yourself; is my Flash up every x minutes? If Yes, then I can play like a retard because I have a freebie. I don't have to care about my own skill level, or this skill level of my opponents. I just press button. Sure, an Amumu might want to save his Flash for  initiating, but what about the aforementioned Kog? Does he just get to push his lane for free and rice it up because he doesn't need to initiate?

Its like sinji got another account. Give us some examples of retarded play, i mean every pro game has 5 flashes to a side so that shouldn't be that hard.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Megrim on October 08, 2011, 09:59:55 AM
Fuck off you twat.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 08, 2011, 10:11:45 AM
It's a LoL thread now  :awesome_for_real:


Obligatory " U mad?"


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Megrim on October 08, 2011, 11:06:54 AM
Good thing you're adding to the quality of the posts. I should just start spamming LOL I TROLL U image macros. I guess that will get the point across.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: ezrast on October 08, 2011, 11:47:04 AM
I probably wasn't clear enough. Basically it comes down to either everyone having equal mobility, ala Quake (and the ability to exploit it forms part of what differentiates player skill), or making above-the-norm mobility, such as a blink-type ability on a hero who does not normally have access to it, a resource to be measured and valued. As such, the ability to control this resource then forms part of a player's skill. Do I spend money on being able to kill harder, or do I make myself more mobile to be able to kill in a larger number of situations? Just think of how much there is in power differential between an Annie who has Flash, and one who doesn't. If the balance orients itself around Annie as-is, versus other heroes as-they-are, then the introduction of an ability which can wildly swing the power ratio in one direction - it has to cost something.

(snip)

And, it is precisely mindless because you said it yourself; is my Flash up every x minutes? If Yes, then I can play like a retard because I have a freebie. I don't have to care about my own skill level, or this skill level of my opponents. I just press button. Sure, an Amumu might want to save his Flash for  initiating, but what about the aforementioned Kog? Does he just get to push his lane for free and rice it up because he doesn't need to initiate?
Ah, we don't think that differently then. My main point of contention is that Flash is a resource to be managed in and of itself, along with all the other things I mentioned that come back after X minutes. The Kog still has to be careful with it because as soon as he burns his Flash, the other team reports "Kog Flash down" and then he is target numero uno for the next four minutes and 15 seconds, anywhere he goes.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: jakonovski on October 08, 2011, 12:33:34 PM
How about giving alternatives to Flash? As it is many summoner spells are downright useless, and the good ones (except Flash) are rather specialized.



Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Margalis on October 08, 2011, 01:46:20 PM
Yeah, I have no problem with Flash and I use it offensively as often as defensively. If there is a problem with it it's just that it's so much better than most other summoner spells.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: K9 on October 08, 2011, 04:28:59 PM
A summoner spell which revealed all enemy champions and NPC creeps for 5 seconds might be fun.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Malakili on October 08, 2011, 05:34:25 PM
A summoner spell which revealed all enemy champions and NPC creeps for 5 seconds might be fun.

This sounds pretty good.  Like others, I agree that the problem is less with Flash and more with a bunch of the others being so situational by comparison.  Give others than are more consistently useful and it wouldn't seem so powerful.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: DLRiley on October 08, 2011, 05:37:51 PM
Yeah, I have no problem with Flash and I use it offensively as often as defensively. If there is a problem with it it's just that it's so much better than most other summoner spells.

This.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: statisticalfool on October 08, 2011, 06:55:43 PM
I don't know, I still feel like Flash is the problem, not the other summoners.

Rally, Fortify: terribad.
Revive, Heal, Clarity: Clarity has a few specific uses, Revive has some weird niches. But mostly useless, need buffs
Cleanse: Needs buffs, although I think as little as: "cleanses suppression" might be enough.

Ignite: good enough early that lots of people take it: it could use a late game buff, but it's not a problem
Smite, CV, Exhaust, Teleport: working fine.
Ghost: I feel like if Flash were even a little bit worse, ghost would see more play. It feels fine to me.

Flash: too good

That looks like one OP, six about right, six wrong. Bringing other ones up to Flash's level: seems like a lot more work.

Just for funs, let me take a stab at reworking the bad ones: (probably bad ideas, but whatever)

Rally: Grant it an AD/AP/Move speed buff for flat. Double the health. Improved:  decreased cooldown, increase cast range by 1000.
Fortify: Decrease cooldown by 60 seconds. Increase bonus damage to minions to 3 (2?)xlvl.
Heal: 100 + (lvl x 40).
Clarity: When activated, gives 10% CDR for 30 seconds (halved to affected allies without improved)
Cleanse: cleanses suppression
Ignite: Improved: Your ignite lowers the MR of target by 15. When on cooldown, you gain 15 Ability Power.



Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Typhon on October 10, 2011, 07:46:40 AM
I think they should remove self-impacting combat centric summoner abilities altogether.

Leaving Fortify, Rally, Ghost (out-of-combat only), Teleport, Revive, and Clairvoyance

:) but that's just me


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Megrim on October 10, 2011, 07:58:18 AM
I probably wasn't clear enough. Basically it comes down to either everyone having equal mobility, ala Quake (and the ability to exploit it forms part of what differentiates player skill), or making above-the-norm mobility, such as a blink-type ability on a hero who does not normally have access to it, a resource to be measured and valued. As such, the ability to control this resource then forms part of a player's skill. Do I spend money on being able to kill harder, or do I make myself more mobile to be able to kill in a larger number of situations? Just think of how much there is in power differential between an Annie who has Flash, and one who doesn't. If the balance orients itself around Annie as-is, versus other heroes as-they-are, then the introduction of an ability which can wildly swing the power ratio in one direction - it has to cost something.

(snip)

And, it is precisely mindless because you said it yourself; is my Flash up every x minutes? If Yes, then I can play like a retard because I have a freebie. I don't have to care about my own skill level, or this skill level of my opponents. I just press button. Sure, an Amumu might want to save his Flash for  initiating, but what about the aforementioned Kog? Does he just get to push his lane for free and rice it up because he doesn't need to initiate?
Ah, we don't think that differently then. My main point of contention is that Flash is a resource to be managed in and of itself, along with all the other things I mentioned that come back after X minutes. The Kog still has to be careful with it because as soon as he burns his Flash, the other team reports "Kog Flash down" and then he is target numero uno for the next four minutes and 15 seconds, anywhere he goes.

Something like that, but I don't think an arbitrary timer is enough to balance something like that, nor does it make for compelling gameplay.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on October 13, 2011, 09:35:02 PM
Better stats pages. It still blows my mind that my profile page will tell me exactly how many creeps I have killed in total, but not how many I average killing per game. Since it doesn't tell me how many games I've played either, I can't even do the math myself. It will tell me how many times I've won, but I cannot actually get my overall win-loss record. The match history extends about 10% of the length any reasonable person could expect.

My impression is these stats get somewhat better for ranked games, but really. There is so much low-hanging fruit here it is amazing. Average cs per game? Cross-account comparisons to composited 'average' players of the same ranking? Slicing data by champion? By role? It seems so obvious.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Furiously on October 13, 2011, 10:27:52 PM
Clicks per second.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: DLRiley on October 14, 2011, 01:24:25 AM
A working pug system.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: kaid on October 14, 2011, 10:08:44 AM
Yeah, I have no problem with Flash and I use it offensively as often as defensively. If there is a problem with it it's just that it's so much better than most other summoner spells.

The biggest problem with flash is its so much better than all the options. When in tournaments 95% of people choose it as an option then its likely to strong or the other powers are to weak. If there were other viable options to picking flash for a summoner spell then you likely would not see the griping.

One interesting thing that I find odd is a lot less people seem to choose flash on dominion than they do on SR or TT.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: tazelbain on October 14, 2011, 10:14:11 AM
I think the issue is not just that is better than everything else hands down.  Its that it fundamental alters the balance of champs.  Even it was perfectly balanced, it still be required for champs.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Kirth on October 14, 2011, 10:35:25 AM
From watching a few tournament streams this is the current meta :

Everyone takes flash
jungler takes smite
bot lane support takes cv
solo top lane takes teleport
everyone else ignite

There may be some slight variations on the top lane/carries. Honestly if they gave flash to everyone or took it away you would prolly see more CV usage in SR.

and yes in dominion flash is terrible, ghost is the flash of dominion.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Typhon on October 14, 2011, 10:37:18 AM
I think the issue is not just that is better than everything else hands down.  Its that it fundamental alters the balance of champs.  Even it was perfectly balanced, it still be required for champs.

I was just thinking this same thing.  The developers have even stated something like, 'if we removed flash we'd have to look at Champs like X'.  Champs should be balanced independently of summoner abilities.

Summoner abilities should be strategic/logistic, not tactical (e.g. I'll take Clarity on ChampX so that I can buy an AP item early on to try to get early kills.  or, I'll take Clairvoyance so I can mitigate the cost of some wards).  


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on October 14, 2011, 10:52:00 AM
Another option for competitive play is to simply limit the number of players who can use a given summoner ability. If each team only gets 2 or 3 Flash selections, etc. you might see players developping new/better ways to make use of the other abilities.

But really, as mentioned, it's just that mobility is king and Flash is a completely open-ended ability, skill-wise. Heal will only ever heal x amount, no matter how good you are, but Flash gets better and better as you become a better player, because it has so many applications.

It also leads to awesome individual plays, which has always seemed like a plus to me -- same as in DOTA, where certain blinks/'jukes' in competitive games were highlight-reel material. Escaping a 4-man gank with the perfect Flash is exactly what the game should be about, IMO -- and it's just as glorious when you're chasing someone and they flash across a gap, only to find out that your teammate is waiting on the other side to finish them off.

It would certainly be nice if they could come up with some other clutch summoner abilities, that would produce similar moments of play. Clairvoyance can have a similar effect, but not really on an individual scale, which is why teams tend to only need one person running it. It surprises me that things like Rally and Fortify are not part of the metagame, since for example in DOTA the ability to make a structure temporarily immune to damage is a significant aspect of most play. It seems like tweaking the numbers on these might bring them back into the game.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: DLRiley on October 14, 2011, 12:19:15 PM
I think you guys aren't addressing the fact that Summoners Rift is boring and Riot seemed to resign themselves to breaking SR with new champs that exploit various things you hate to fight against in SR. This is where the debate simply falls short, when the only reason to not sit at your tower and wait for the incoming creep waves is dragon and baron, than any suggestion that doesn't fuck with that issue is mute.

A long time ago, we had Heal, Promote, and Rally, which made taking flash more of an option than a must have. They were nerfed during a time when support was a lot stronger than it is now.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Slayerik on October 14, 2011, 01:21:33 PM

A long time ago, we had Heal, Promote, and Rally, which made taking flash more of an option than a must have. They were nerfed during a time when support was a lot stronger than it is now.

I don't usually agree with you, but this line is dead-on. I don't think heal should be a bad choice (it is because of diminishing returns). If you face a heal team, a couple ignites and an Executioner's Calling on your AD would be a decent enough counter. Instead it's not even viable. I just like a little variance in my play, and I have become bored of the same champs in most games. Fuck Lee Sin, fuck Brand, Fuck Cait, Fuck Vayne, Fuck Singed, Fuck Morgana, Fuck Annie, Fuck GP, Fuck Akali. There are like 80 champs and basically every game I play has like 4-6 of the above. Zzzzzzz

I think mostly, I'm just a little burned out.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Ashamanchill on October 16, 2011, 12:20:03 AM
I hear ya boss. You know what's funny? This rank reset fucked me. I was much happier at low elo. There was actually different picks there, and sometimes zany strategies. I could even carry a game as Cho, or Galio. Being in an elo that actually uses the current meta, and sticks religiously to the accepted champions and their roles, has kinda burned me out for now.










Yeah, I'll be back.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: HaemishM on October 27, 2011, 03:56:55 PM
I'm not sure about summoner abilities, but the biggest problem I have with LoL besides the shitgobbling twats playing it is the fact that a disconnect can utterly fuck a team. Rasix and I duo'ed a game of SR a couple of nights ago. We stated our intentions in team select that we would do bot, and another pair of friends wanted top. So we told the Karthus to go mid. He starts pitching a bit of a fit and the Ashe volunteers to take mid. Get into the summoning screen, get all the way to spawn and the shitburglar disconnects, never to return. We spent the whole time trying to overcome a 4v5. At one point, Rasix and I were duoing bot (I was Ryze, he was Gangplank) against a trio of Rammus (who taunted me mercilessly into multiple deaths all game), and two others, I forget who. Even so, it still took around an hour to lose because it was a decent team.

I don't know how to fix the issue. Allow solo queue players to take the disco's place? I'm not even concerned with punishing the dick so much as making sure I don't spend 40 minutes fighting a foregone conclusion.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: tazelbain on October 27, 2011, 04:04:44 PM
> making sure I don't spend 40 minutes fighting a foregone conclusion.
This is what makes LoL unplayable for me these days.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: DLRiley on October 27, 2011, 05:00:14 PM
Remove the surrender limits. No reason why it should take 20 minutes to decide whether a game is over. I shouldn't have to listen to people bitch and whine for 40 minutes only to maybe win 6 minutes later  :awesome_for_real: If someone disconnects for more than 1-5 minutes, allow for a 3:2 surrender vote that results in a draw. Also if someone surrenders before the 10 minute mark, the game is a draw.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: K9 on October 27, 2011, 05:58:43 PM
That would get abused so hard by your typical draft dodging type it isn't even worth considering.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on October 27, 2011, 06:43:58 PM

I admit, the ability to control DCed champions is one thing from DOTA I find myself missing rather a lot. Even if it was part of a whole constellation of troublesome other capabilities. In terms of LoL I would at least like to see them adopt the mechanic where all the non-DCed champions receive boosted gold income (i.e. the passive gold gain on the DCed champion.)


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: DLRiley on October 28, 2011, 08:32:39 AM
That would get abused so hard by your typical draft dodging type it isn't even worth considering.

Considering I have no problem with draft dodging...


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Thrawn on October 29, 2011, 03:30:27 PM
Also if someone surrenders before the 10 minute mark, the game is a draw.

No.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: HaemishM on November 04, 2011, 03:59:05 PM
Looks like some of you guys are getting your wish in relation to Flash and other summoner spells (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/inside-design-summoner-spells-and-season-two).

Flash is getting reduced range and increased cooldown. Heal is getting a buff to be better in the late game. And other stuff.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Megrim on November 04, 2011, 08:47:04 PM
I'm not sure an outright nerf is whats needed, but eh, I guess we'll see how this goes.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Malakili on November 04, 2011, 09:49:13 PM
People will either stay with flash, or take ghost in its place.   Its not going to change the fact that movement is more important than other effects.  Nerfing the stats like range or duration doesn't solve the real problem, it just makes them less desireable.   

Doesn't really matter though, whatever is the new best will be used and people will complain those are now OP or too good or whatever.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: K9 on November 05, 2011, 04:08:35 AM
I like the addition of promote to SR, it always felt like it would fit better there than in Dominion. I'm less thrilled about the change to CV, this seems to be aimed more at high-level play than normal folk, unlike flash which is pretty ubiquitous.



Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: DLRiley on November 05, 2011, 05:25:38 AM
Riot realized a while ago that they are only medicore at balancing a game and figured that the community won't notice, because they are for the most part flaming retards or carebears. Latest attempts at changes doesn't disprove that.  Promote is just a laning phase skill, lolz, and it does nothing for the mid to late game or help end games at the mid game. Which was the whole point of any suggestion to bring promote back in the game in the first place. And lord the problem with heal is not the late game scaling but its crappy debuff that prevents teamplay revolving around this. So essentially none of the changes make the game end any faster, nor do they encourage team fights. But more laning, more farming, more sitting at rivier. Good Job Riot.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Thrawn on November 05, 2011, 09:59:01 AM
I like the addition of promote to SR, it always felt like it would fit better there than in Dominion.

Promote was originally in SR but was removed for being too good.  Your team took 5 promotes and a pushing team, then around 5-10min or so you all grouped up mid.  You used all your promotes, and pushed the lane almost all the way to nexus.  It was almost unstoppable if done correctly.  I'm assuming it will be more like Dominion promote now where you can only promote a nearby cannon minion or something to prevent this strategy.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on November 05, 2011, 10:09:35 AM
Dl, seriously now, deep breaths. 


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on November 05, 2011, 05:43:46 PM

Well, similarly, there was a period ages back where the SR metagame was dominated by heal/poking comps, which is why Heal has such a significant debuff in the first place. Of course there was also an item nerf involved (can't remember its name offhand) so probably they could un-nerf Heal quite a bit at this point.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Thrawn on November 05, 2011, 06:58:09 PM

Well, similarly, there was a period ages back where the SR metagame was dominated by heal/poking comps, which is why Heal has such a significant debuff in the first place. Of course there was also an item nerf involved (can't remember its name offhand) so probably they could un-nerf Heal quite a bit at this point.


Removal of Innervating locket?  Nerfing Executioners Calling into near uselessness?


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Chimpy on November 05, 2011, 07:01:14 PM
Spirit Visage was nerfed a couple of times iirc, which would have made heal more powerful.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on November 05, 2011, 08:06:15 PM
Removal of Innervating locket? 

Yep, that's the one.


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Thrawn on November 06, 2011, 10:54:12 AM
Removal of Innervating locket? 

Yep, that's the one.

Blame Udyr.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Ideas to improve LoL
Post by: Mosesandstick on November 06, 2011, 11:18:57 AM
Blame Guardsman Bob.  :awesome_for_real: