f13.net

  link (http://www.pvponline.com/2011/07/22/oh-oh-its-magic/)

I don't know what to make of this.  I stopped reading PA quite awhile ago, because frankly those guys seem just... disingenuous?  With PvP it seemed better.   But with all of Scott's tirades against newspaper cartoonists (and Mike's invectives against political cartonnists) this "I'm pimping now publically for corps I like" feels... weird?

I've never liked Kurtz, to be honest, so grain of salt and all that.  But I can't say I like the idea.  I hate it when I see the blatant ad placement stuff (cars, Subway) in TV shows.  But then again, I'm already not a fan of him or his stuff, so it doesn't change anything for me.  I just have to roll my eyes a bit at his, "I don't have to feel like a sellout because I and my fans already like it!" 

I thought this was kind of bullshit, really. If Kurtz was less cocksure and more humble in how he thought through being a webcomics guy, it would sit a bit better. It's also interesting to see him doing this at a time when his comics work has gotten roughly as tame and predictable as Beetle Bailey, it just adds another element of obviousness and ho-humosity to the strip. I'm not in the least convinced that Kurtz thinks Magic: The Gathering is fucking awesome or anything either--his enthusiasm for games has been muted for a long time in the strip.

I actually still like Penny Arcade: those guys have long been way more honest about the ways in which they pimp shit that they really like, and they're often willing to bite various hands that are feeding them. Plus I honestly think they're pretty funny from time to time, and the artistic work has gotten quite good as well. Not that they'd be even close to my Top Ten of webcomics, but I think they're pretty authentic and talented and I don't get all the hate for them.

Kurtz has always been a greedy, self-important arse.  The PA guys seem like the actually enjoy what they do.  They like games and they like trying new stuff, as well as not discounting the potential of anything.  Even if you don't like their stuff, they've never come across as jerks.  Kurtz?  He's all about himself and how whatever opportunity makes him money.

yeah I'm not going to condemn/defend either PA or Kurtz, since it's a matter of taste or personal belief on some things.  But this kind of sponsored advertising seems at odds with the image of both groups like to portray.  Inauthentic?   It's probably not even worth typing or thinking about.

It's Kurtz' spin on something PA has been doing for years.  Only PA rarely (never?) used the Gabe and Tycho characters for the pimping and it wasn't included in the daily strip.   He's moved up there to hang with them, so he's not going to try and muscle in on the game mags and companies where they have their stake, so this is where he's going.

Does it detract from the work? Possibly, but that depends on what your viewpoint of what 'the work' is.  People tell me my work detracts from "Capital-A Architecture." My response is much like Lum's.   When you pay my bills, you can tell me what is or isn't valid.

There's always a group of people who will decide to hate something popular, because it is popular. Not that there aren't legitimate things to criticize also, but there's a strong element of frontrunner hate going on too.

While I don't get the slavish and rabid geek following, I think PA is generally funny more often than not.  Most of their non Gabe/Tycho stuff is pretty awful, but occasionally some of it is funny (the artwork is usually pretty good for their standards to compensate some, I guess).

PVP, yetch, I forgot Kurtz was still around.  People still like his stuff? I though he's been god awful since he pretty much ditched doing any panels about gaming.

It's apparent that there's folks who read it for the dick & fart jokes, and still find the characters entertaining.  I don't know who, because I stopped reading around 2007, but the guy's still making money.  Much like how Jim Davis still making money, he's found a formula and is sticking with it.

Dick that he is, I still admire him for being able to make it as a cartoonist on the web. That and providing a model so folks didn't continue to support shitty & shady places like Keenspot.

My sister-in-law has three basset hounds. She fosters rescue dogs. There was a great basset-related strip years ago. I wanted to reproduce it and get it framed. He was not selling prints of strips at the time. I emailed him and asked if could purchase a high-rez version of the strip. He utterly ignored my first email, so I sent a second one. Also ignored. I have an IP background, so I just found an alternative Xmas present. A few weeks later, he was selling reproductions of his strip. Fuck Scott Kurtz. I am sure he gets loads of email, but I made a good faith effort to not infringe on his copyright.

I am tempted to slog through his archives and nab the strip, get it enlarged and framed just to spite him.

Kurtz, from everything I've read that he's written, is an asshole in a similar way to Scott Adams. He's a self-important ass who thinks he's single handedly invented doing comics on the web and he's also supremely butthurt over print publishers and artists not acknowledging his genius and telling him to gtfo. Initially I assumed that was just because they didn't want to acknowledge webcomic artists but the more he wrote the more I think him being an insufferable probably played a part in that. This would all be fine if PvP was a great read and had some humorous or artistic merit but frankly it's pretty dull. Some people must enjoy it, which is fine, it pays Kurtz's bills and the man is clearly a competent businessman and a consistent worker.

Gabe and Tycho seem to me to be in the whole thing primarily because they enjoy the culture and what they do. I don't know if the comic is really even a prime focus for them but they figured out a way to use it to pay the bills and let them do stuff like PAX. I think that's the difference (from what I've seen of them) with Kurtz. I think he sees the comic as a way of making money while the PA guys see it as a way of letting them do what they enjoy, both understand that they need to make money from the thing in order to eat.

Well, that's part of the reason I'm not a fan of Kurtz.  His update schedule is horribly inconsistent.  If he wasn't such a monumental ass, it wouldn't be a problem though.  But, well, he is.  One of the last times he got all, "I'm revolutionizing the way comics works!" was when he was going to let his comic be put in papers for to show that the comic syndicates were no longer necessary.  Turns out he couldn't give his comic away for free to them. 

To echo what others have said, what makes PA different, to me, is that they seem to enjoy games and geeky stuff, and it gets reflected in their comics.  They may not always be funny, different strokes and all that, but it never comes across as a blatant "Hey guys, I know geek culture!  Buy my books!"  They keep their update schedule, while doing all sorts of stuff on the side as well.  PAX, their sponsored comics for games (that are kept separate from the main comic), and the Childs Play charity.  They handle their stuff professionally and make contributions outside of just their webcomic. 

Kurtz just seems to tool around looking for the next best way to cash in on something.  Which, hey, it works well enough for him and I'm sure he'll keep laughing all the way to the bank.  But I'll never get why people keep giving him money when he's such an inconsistent, flaky ass.   

This. Bitches got to get paid, 'cos ink and pixels taste like shit and are much less filling than steak.

He can put what he likes in his comics but that essay made me cringe. Explaining that you used to hold a position contrary to the argument you are putting forward but went on a journey of self-discovery is a debating technique. You are inviting the reader to empathise and take that journey with you. "Gee, I guess they do do it on Mad Men. And I don't object to it on that show..."

Does anyone know what he's talking about when he says that cartoonists (I guess this must mean any creator of fiction?) aren't meant to put real products in their stories? Is their really any legal impediment to showing Harry Potter using an iPhone without Apple's permission? Obviously there might be a problem if you say it causes cancer, but Kurtz seems to be talking about simply mentioning products at all.

If Magic:  The Gathering wants to sponsor my orthodontic office they can come in and do so at any time. 

I will gladly cash a 6-figure check to have "Sponsored by Preperation H" on my novel covers.  :grin:

When he references stuff like that, I always assume it's because someone on one of the Comic Writer websites has written a diatribe about it that got the community's assent.   Sort of like how we might reference catassing and everyone outside of the MMO-pundit community thinks we're talking about sniffing cat crap to get high.

As far as actual legal impediments, it might depend on if he was trying to defame or use the product's unique design for his own gain.  I think otherwise it's just fair use.

Scott Kurtz is Gaming's Jim Davis, except more arrogant.

I don't think anyone here is bemoaning Kurz's inauthenticity as a reason to shun him. We think he's very obviously doing this to make money (as opposed to someone doing what they want to do and making money from it), does it inconsistently and is also a tremendous ass. It's great for him that he's making money at this, I just don't get why the fuck it works.

I don't especially care for his work but I am confused as to what you mean by his inconsistency? I am under the impression that he is basically rock solid on updates, at least, which is like problem #1 for 90% of webcomics.

Maybe he's gotten better about it.  But last I was following it regularly, he was as far from rock solid on updates as possible.  The comics were never up at a consistent time, you'd sometimes go days without a comic getting posted.  Sometimes he'd fill in the days, some times he wouldn't.  And there'd almost never be any sort of note about what was going on.  And it's not like this is a hobby he does on the side.  It's his job.  Sure, he didn't just wander off for weeks like I've seen happen elsewhere, but it's still a pretty bad showing.  And it's a stark contrast to the majority of comics I read or follow, where they update every scheduled day by the morning, if not late at night.  When they can't, they'll at least put up a note. 

Because, like most things in life, people don't read the background or give a damn about who made it and just consume the product.   You're a 'net geek, you're too close to it.   Hell, just knowing he's a tremendous ass is being too close to it.   Do you thoroughly review the life and aspirations of the CEO making your toothpaste or preferred beverage, too?  No, you consume.  So do comic readers.

Hell, I'd love to see the stats of people who actually read the blogs any web cartoonist puts up vs those who skip it and read the comic.

Honestly, I thought Hard/Clay had the best take on this way back in 2005 when he bitched about the trend towards putting your comic behind a click-through blog entry.  Nobody gives a fuck. They're there for your work, not your opinion.


Yes, exactly.  If more people knew what a cynical, money-grubbing ass Davis was, Garfield wouldn't have been as successful as it has been. They don't, and don't care, so MONEY.

Mediocre sells.  It sells really fucking well because while it's not enthralling to everyone it also doesn't offend.  Geeks like us often forget this because we're geeks and our tastes are already skewed.


Last I read he was.  I heard he'd scaled back the # of updates, but he was always on time.   ALL of the successful web comic artists say this is the key.  Being consistently on time builds your reader base.  Even if it's only once a week, do it and stick to it no matter what.  As soon as you lose that consistency readership falls.  You have to approach it like a business, because it is.  

It's a feedback loop on the positive and negative side.  Keep updating and on time, even your bad updates will get you more hits.  As soon as you slip, you'll lose people.  (Which is why you'll see a "i'm sorry, xyz made me fall behind." on the good sites even if they can't get a page out.)  

Given that most are artsy types, they'll fail to hold that schedule eventually.  That then turns into a negative feedback loop as they lose readers, get discouraged and aren't jazzed to try and do the next update.  Which then loses readers... etc.

Were I to look at starting one the first thing I'd do is come up with a backlog of 100ish strips.  Just so you could get a head start and have some cushion for the inevitable slippage.   Watterson said the grind just gets to you eventually, but you know you HAVE to update or else you don't get paid.   I expect that from an artist like himself.  Guys like Davis, Keane, Walker.. Even Schultz.  They've got a formula and that's why they've been able to keep updating for 20, 30, 40+ years.  At that point you're not an artist, you're just another cynical dick looking for a check.

I knew he was no saint, but not that bad.  Got some linkage I can peruse regarding how bad?

Really, that applies to just about anything, it's just we have to relearn this shit on the internet for whatever reason. If your product is content, you need to provide that content at regular reliable inter-vaults. Be it webcomics, podcasts, youtube videos, magazines, articles, newspapers, regular old comic books.


The stuff I read religiously is also the stuff that gets updated religiously. When was the last time say, PA or GirlGenius missed a content update? There is always SOMETHING there come post day.

Or conversely, could you imagine how quickly a magazine would be mocked and fold if it tried to sell you a monthly subscription but only delivered every 1-4 months at random? Hell isn't that one of the big problems with actual comic books these days, monthly books ending up being bi-annual books.  :why_so_serious:

No direct link, no.  My assessment is built up over decades worth of following cartoons off and on, and watching specials and interviews. 

http://pressroom.garfield.com/jim_bio/index.html

That gives a general outline of his career. Being a Garfield site it glosses over a lot and portrays his choice of 'a cat who hates mondays' far differently that some things I've seen/ read, including directly from him.  You're left to imply what his college degree is in - marketing & advertising.  The dull choices of a fat cat who hates Mondays and likes gorging on lasagna are all based off of research, not some brilliant insight as is implied.

Each step in his career has always been about maximizing revenue streams and moving into other markets to keep Garfield - the brand - alive.  Sure, he hit a good combo but it was always the end goal to turn something he loved as a kid and was still popular - the daily comic - into a marketing behemoth.  Think about how many Garfield cartoons, movies, toys, plushies, cards, posters, etc. there have been over the years.   Do you think Garfield was really that much more popular than Blondie, Hagar, BC, Calvin & Hobbes or even the crappy Marmaduke? 

Nope. It's all about the marketing. ($750mil - $1bil per year, specifically)  He started drawing it in 1978 and it was on TV within 10 years of that.   Plushies, etc were selling before that.  I'm sure, had there been a web, "purists" would have been flinging the same insults at him we fling at Kurtz now.  It's all been a cynical, jaded scheme to generate money, not because he enjoyed some cat.

There's been times people have speculated he's hated doing it.  In The 9 lives of Garfield he kills him quite disturbingly in a life http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garfield:_His_9_Lives.  He also wrote the series of strips where it was implied Garfield was dead.   http://imsosorryforthis.blogspot.com/2006/08/dead-garfield.html    Davis has never said it was because he hated the franchise, but they certainly don't help to feed the idea he loves it.

All that, but he still apparently has something like a sense of humor about himself and his soulless beast, given he is cool with Garfield Minus Garfield. It may, of course, just be that he Understands the Internet unlike SO MANY PEOPLE, but I like that instead of going all frothy Cease and Desist, he embraced it.

The cynic in me says he realizes it expands the brand, and so long as it doesn't cut into that $1bil revenue he's ok with that.

I do find it odd he didn't send a C&D once G-G got around to publishing a book and actually making money, though.

I miss Berkeley Breathed.

Goddamnit, I do too.  And this Outland shit doesn't cut it. 

Ex-lax:  "It's the shiznit!"

PvP had its moments but I quit because it didn't keep me hooked.  PA is 50/50 and is the only webcomic I frequent.  I find it frequently hilarious though I skip a lot of Jerry's verbal diarrhea. 

PA's front page is probably one of the few I actually do read.



-edit- Probably? Do I not know my own reading habits.  :why_so_serious:

I really dig watching the live drawing of the PA comic and try to catch it whenever I can. Kurtz did a 'competing' webcast of drawing his comic and it ended up being a lot of cut/paste/flip from strips in his archive. It didn't seem like he was doing much actual drawing before I closed the window.

A story heading in a certain direction because of product placement is well within his right to do. I would have maybe kept my mouth shut about doing it though.

Who gives a shit?

You are ALL better than this.

All I can say is you first-world-problem-types better hope Wizards never offers me sponsorship for a quarter.

I'm all in favor of selling out, everyone should be so successful they get the chance.  Sometimes the quality stays up there, sometimes it goes down, for example the newest freddie wong stuff on youtube is certainly not as fun to watch since he got sponsored by games, lost it's edge.

It's all about the content.

Basically, yeah. Selling out is fine, but in some cases it's a sign that somebody's creativity is plummeting. In Kurtz' case, on one hand he's always been clear that he's looking for ways to monetize webcomics, so that's fine. On the other, he's also been really vocal about complaining about legacy comics in the newspapers and the way that they just recycle and zombify the same old shit and then sell licensed crap (Garfield, etc.). Since he's already been doing a lot of the same recycling, I think this is less a dividing line between "was good, is now bad" and more just a diagnostic sign of "is now bad". I honestly think Kurtz was pretty amusing in the early development of his strip, when it had much tighter thematic content and sharper humor. As it's become more about his characters, it's become tedious because his characters aren't very interesting. It really shows when he tries to pretend he's doing something profound and edgy by having the former one-note antagonist, now one-note secondary character come out as gay, which is just missing the boat by about 15-20 years when that plotline might actually have been relatively new.

Max Powers is gay?

That's incredibly lame, even by PvP's lowered standards.

Why? Who cares? Can't he just be a gay character without it being a "statement"? I mean, feel free to hate Kurtz because.. well, because he's a douchebag. But he made a secondary character gay. Big deal. I've worked with several people (effectively secondary characters in my life) who acted "normal" who later turned out to be gay/lesbian, and when I found out I didn't give a shit, because who cares? I mean, they were "out" but not out in terms of needing to wear a rainbow flag, they were just out in the fact that their partners were of the same sex, but acted like anyone else. So I treated them like anyone else.

Or am I way out of line here with my indifference?

I though Kurtz had run a whole thing with Max Powers way back when with a running joke about everyone thinking he was gay because of cleanliness, etc. stereotypes but he really wasn't. Or did I just imagine that whole thing?

I think who cares? would be a great story. But Kurtz seemed to be strutting around like he deserved credit for doing something daring, and then was a bit like, "Oh, you guys think this is an old kind of subplot? Really? Oh. Ok." Actually I'll give him that--he didn't respond with his usual aggressive "NO U" when a lot of people were yawning about the storyline.

Boring character in a boring comic suddenly becomes gay to make things more relevant and fails, news at 11.

I think today's comic highlighting aspects of the Wizards of the Coast (Lucille) / PvP relationship has made the storyline more interesting to me on a meta level as Lucille butts in more and more on PvP's business. I can't tell if he's being clever and making some sort of commentary, or just stumbled into the implications of his storyline and the sponsored advertising in the comic. Lucille's lack of professionalism (a necessary character flaw for an interesting character) ... could that hurt someone's perception of WoC's business practices?

Of course, it could all go back to "It's just a fucking webcomic."  :oh_i_see: