f13.net

How are you finding the Shattering changes in BGs and PvP generally?

Haven done very little since 4.0, but one thing that does stand out is mana is a lot less of an issue. Used to go OOM constantnly, now it's pretty easy to keep a workable amount of blue in the bar. Loss of Pursuit of Justice is a big issue, however. Otherwise, about the same. Easier to keep shield block up, but somewhat less effective than it was (no totally blocking rogues with oddles of +block gear). Just keep in mind that all the PvP I've done lately is world PvP: i.e. ganking clueless idiots that are flagged for whatever reason when my protection pally runs across them.

It's gotten a lot better at 1200+ resilience, at least I live long enough to kill people again.  Assuming I can catch them, that is...Tuskarr's just doesn't cut it for closing with an enemy.

Best luck seems to be building a stack of holy power & waiting for Sacred duty to proc.  Toss avenger's shield, hit with the shield of the righteous guaranteed crit.

Oh, and feral druids suck.  I'm used to not being able to kill casters or healers, but a dr00d in cat form?  That ain't right.

Yup.  Can't die and rip you up, literally.  My druid is resto mainly and can't be killed by any less than 4.  I have a boomkin spec but only use it when in Strand of the Ancients since healing there is just needed in occasional spots.  Otherwise, DPS CC DPS CC....

My gear just isn't up to snuff right now to use Prot for PvP.  I've been up against some prot pally's with killer gear that are just nasty, so I know it is a very viable spec.

For healing, I'm ok, but the patch really nerfed that option too.  I used to be nearly unstoppable.  Now, I'm completely stoppable without better gear. 

I'm pretty sure Ret is still pretty bland so I've been concentrating pvp on my other alts right now. 

Yeah, I'm usually 2nd or 3rd in overall damage (sometimes #1, but that's more from other people sucking than me being totally awesome). 

What's depressing is when I'm simultaneously #2 or 3 on the healing charts. 

But then, I'm a dorf pally, and the Alliance just doesn't have a clue most of the time.

I'm alliance also.  So, yeah, I hear you.  It is what we get when we have the side with the masses that are now poking their heads into BG's saying, "What's going on in here??!!"

I really wish they would change the BG system to do some kind of healer balancing for groups.  Far too often I get put into a group that has one or zero healers.  Fail, everytime.

Nothing to do with protection PvP, but since the thread is drifting already, lets not waste it.

As for alliance...umm...cluelessness, lets say, yeah, that describes this last weekend pretty well. I finally resurrected and re-equipped my night elf rogue for bracket PvP. Took about a day to get her retuned for an assassination build and it was off to the BGs. Level 58, twinked to the 9s (of course), weighing in at a svelte 5400 hps. Considering I haven't played this character seriously in 4 years and then as combat, I don't have a clue what I"m doing. She was a veritable engine of destruction, albeit easily distracted and somewhat slow on the uptake. Fear sucks a lot worse for rogues than warriors, I've discovered.

My fellow ally however, couldn't pour piss out of boot even with the instructions in hand. Despite a kill count like a roll of Brawny paper towels and umpteen flag recoveries (WSG, of course), we still lost 3 to 1. I had fun and got a ton of honor, but I mean really. One rather annoying thing was the horde teams seemed inordinatley composed of shadow priests and warlocks. Bloody annoying, but killed a metric ton of them nevertheless.

Generally, I look at alliance BG play as if a large portion of them are like my son, age 10.  He loves to play BG's.  He has no clue how to min/max or what skills/powers/etc. to use when.  He just likes to go in sword ablaze, die, and do it again.  Over and over.  At the end he looks at the list and finds it interesting but doesn't use it to do anything different.  I liken his attitude towards playing an FPS on our PS3.  He doesn't really take pride or feel a connection to his character really.  He also doesn't read well enough to really pay attention to what is being said in chat either.  He'll actually be in the middle of a battle in the middle of a BG and just turn to talk to me about something he did at school that day.  Meanwhile, I'm repressing my urge to tell him to PAY ATTENTION!

I think you have an imbalance of these players (9-10 year olds) playing on Alliance because they are the nonugly/evil group.  So, you are faced with having teamates like this against opponents that don't (not 100%, just skewed away from it.)  Then add in all the issues you get with having the unwashed masses on your side and you get what we get.

Well, that would explain a few things. More than a few things, heh.

Ah, well. Frankly, I'm there just to kill people and rain on their parade. I'd rather not win (less xp, more time in the BG), but it offends my sensibiliities to see some of the truly boneheaded stuff going on. I've discovered my favorite thing on the rogue is lurking for healers and running down flag carriers like dogs.

I gotta say I do like the stealth. Interestingly, the night elf bonus to stealth seems rather substantial. When I'm on my other characters, when I see a rogue nearby in stealth (5yds or so), I attack the sneaky bastard. What I saw over and over in WSG were hordies basically stepping on my rogue, continuing to walk past, then stopping and attacking someone else--back wide open to me for the inevitable garroting/ambush/kidneyshot. So either they don't think rogues are worth the trouble (your body dead in 3 sec says otherwise...), or they don't see me even at very close quarters. Dunno. Regardless, it works for me.  I had fun. That's the bottom line.

The night elf racials are actually pretty serious in their own right.

Yeah, I have a lot of fun on my Rogue and he's nearly leading the pack of my 10 chars (one of each class) doing BG's right now for PvP equipment.  I haven't figured it out yet, but it seems to vary widely between opponents who can see me and who cannot.  Most of the time I can sneak around pretty easily, but the other day a feral druid kept getting the jump on me in cat form and cleaning my clock.  I couldn't figure it out.  Yes, my rogue is a nelf.

As to fun, I do have it even on some losses if they are close.  I get a bit frustrated after multiple huge losses in a row.  I've had nights where I've lost 9 out of 9 bgs as if we weren't even there.  It is weird how that goes.  Last night I had a great night with like 8 wins and 1 loss.  I don't know how that works.  Of course, only a few of those wins were easy.  Several were really close and hard to get, which I find to be the best ones (and most rewarding due to increased hks.)

My guess is that with the Wrathful PvP gear almost all open to non-arena players, Alliance, in general, are getting more competent.  I'm assuming this will continue to improve until Cata launches.  Then all bets are off.

Wrathful won't fully make up for players who just don't understand how to play in a battleground, but at least it takes the enemy a longer to kill them.

The matches aren't all bad...I finally got the defending the beach achievement in Strand of the Ancients the other day (the one for not losing any walls)

No, Alliance just has ALLL the carebears and has never, ever learned to work together.  There's such a history of losing that if things take even the slightest of stumbles it all falls apart and those who were trying give up.  They are the Cincinnati Bengals of PVP.  I say this after playing Alliance for 6 years now.   I transferred my Pally to Horde earlier this year and it's night and day in pugs.

For example, we were losing WSG as Horde, with people doing the usual fighting in mid bullshit. We were down 2-1 and one person said "oh for fucks sake get it together and group up, stop running in solo." and I chimed in with "I sense a lot of Alliance rerolls, go back to sucking and playing Rambo on that side."  Both such lines would have generated a 5 minute dickwaving session in chat on Alliance.. instead the Horde team actually pulled it together and won.  I was amazed it actually worked.  I'm still amazed.

I think we're saying the same things just in different ways.  Anyway, the giving up part of your argument is completely true.  If the first rush at ANY of the bg's is unsuccessful, 3/4 of your group will just sit at certain areas and pvp for hks.  They lose all desire to go after the overall objective and degrade into "See target, attack target, ignore chat."

I've also seen your "Horde come from behind" scenario play out from the alliance perspective numerous times.  We'll start out stomping horde for what looks like an easy win to see them all of sudden become a completely different group.  At first I thought maybe people /afk'ed out and were replaced with competent people, but I think your explanation makes more sense.  Horde players just seem to care about pvp and winning bgs that much more than alliance in general.

Any comment on what an alliance group should do differently to start winning is faced with insults and endless discussion about who is to blame for being in this position.  Classic responses recently:

"I'm rubbing my *#@$!"
"Why you mad brah!?"
"Well, this is a 1/3 Illidan premade anyway!  We lose auto."
"All you scrubs have too low GS!"
"Go back to PvE or uninstall.  You fail WoW."
"This is Alliance.  You all suck." (Notice it is never WE all suck, just everyone else.)

While I have some fundamental issues with premades.  At least while in a premade you won't be faced with this.  You'll have a group that can take responsibility for sucking as a group, figure out what went wrong, and use the information to do better the next time.  Vent and higher than average GS help too!

The upside is that rated BGs should help this. 

I will be Prot PVP for Cata...  looking forward to ideas here.

To be fair, the Horde isn't always adaptable either.  Case in point:  Warsong Gulch.  A fair percentage of the time I see the Alliance get camped at the graveyard, with the Horde either in the GY or sitting just below picking off people as they jump down one by one. 

However, all it takes is one or two people to sneak around to their graveyard and do the same thing to them, and it throws them (at least until half a dozen all respawn at once)

Since this is the general PVP thread now...

I see they've greatly increased the speed of the vehicles in SOTA; they're now snareable and rootable, but still. Every SOTA I've done in the 60s has been the offense blowing through all the gates and getting the relic within 2m. And since Horde STILL starts on defense 99% of the time, it's all losses. Queue times are in excess of an hour too. Sigh.

Yeah, Horde queue times are worse than DPS queue times for dungeons.  I sat in one for half an hour the other day before I finally gave up and logged.   You'd think since a smaller population of Alliance is queuing they'd get better via repeatedly seeing the same fuck ups screw things. 

A fellow guildmate and I were wondering about this too.  The only thing we came up with is that due to the longer queue times for Horde they:

1.  Do more premade activity, which is now down to 5 people max unless you get into the whole "1,2,3 CLICK" cross server thing.  This helps raise the probability of getting a win
2.  Horde just plain tries harder because they know they are going to be faced with a long queue time if they lose.  Alliance has really no wait, so win/loss, isn't nearly a big deal to them.

I never have to wait more than 2-3 minutes for any BG, random, or holiday, etc.  Having to put up with stupid people is far less painful than even a 15 minute wait.  It is also less painful than creating or finding a guild that likes to form 5 man BG groups, do cross server premades, etc.

So, I roll the dice, wait 2 mins (many times instant) and see what I get.  20 minutes or less later, I do it again.  I can get anywhere from 25-50 honor points for each loss.  So, assume the times above, while you are waiting on your hour queue, I made 75-150 honor just from losing.  You might get 120-140 if you win that one time, otherwise 25-50.  That is all assuming I lose everytime, which I don't.  In fact, my win ratio has been steadily climbing.  I think Alliance folks are getting better geared in general, while the Horde have pretty much capped themselves out.

If I was horde, I would only get 2 shots per night.  If they both came up losses?  Hell, I'd be finding ways to improve my odds right quick!!

Because this thread has deviated so much, I'll just post this question here:

PvE - If I roll Paladin Protection spec for 80+, do I use prot gear for leveling/questing/soloing?  Or do I still want two sets, one for tanking and one for soloing?  Does it end up really mattering?

I leveled as Ret and stayed Ret until now.  Have tanking experience on my DK, but never did with my pally.

Well, things aren't as they were so the difference in protection gear as oppposed to dps gear isn't as clear cut as before. The rule of thumb was protection for PvE and ret gear for PvP. Nowadays, well, dunno.

Personally, I'd still be inclined to go with that paradigm, but the horror stories I"d been hearing about Cata mob difficulty have yet to come to pass. Maybe at 83 things'll be different, but so far from 80-82 it's a walk in the park.

83 is a pretty big jump.  Mob HP pools move to 50k+.  84 is even bigger.  They hit 70k+ and they can crit for 8k easily on cloth.

Yeah, hit Deepholm day before yesterday. They start to toughen up pretty damned quick. I still wasn't having much trouble with them in my t10 and an offhand JC claw (300dps), but I was taking significantly more damage with the heavy stat degradation on the Northrend gear. I actually had to heal myself after fights!

Still, the writing was definately on the wall. I switched to a set of blue gear I'd been collecting--mostly 289 to 316 gear level--hit points jumped to almost 60k and a pair of the 320il JC claws had fur seriously on the walls in any encounter. Throw in the MW pumped insta-heals and my shaman is just chainsawing through this stuff. Looking forward to hitting 85 today or tomorrow. It's been a fun, if hectic, ride.

Oh, and a final aside, there's been some kerfluffery over the new belt buckles, but apparently the old eternal ones still work on >300il gear, despite the item description--for now.

I've only been playing for a month or so but I'm curious why one would choose protection instead of holy (that's what I chose and I'm 51 now).

Why would anyone level as a healer when not just doing dungeons? As Prot you can handle so many more mobs, and kill them all faster, than you ever could as a healer. Disc Priest is probably the only spec that's even half decent at doing quests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riyuG10B0Es

Well I can quest just fine and usually I go out of my way to get trains on me so I can make it a challenge.

I admit though that 6 even level mobs is the most I've ever had on me, and no way could I kill them as fast as that guy in Sheepherder's vid. That was awesome. How much does it cost to change talents?  :grin:

eta: the main reason I asked is that, based on my experience with other games, I'd say holy was op'd, but I guess there's op and then there's godly :p.

Your experience is probably from other games where attempting to kill a solo mob was a very difficult process. Holy paladins and Holy Priests are the two WEAKEST leveling specs in WoW; they are not OP by any means, they are just good at surviving.

Changing talents costs less than 10g for the first time. Hell, for 10g if you're level 30 you can buy a second spec, which you can switch between for free at will.

The Prot Paladin could probably handle more then that video shows, just gathering them all up in the right place can be tricky. You can even see in the video, at least one mob leashed back before the paladin could start fighting.

Prot Paladins also have the ability to solo shit they have no business soloing. Like Fel Reavers at level 66. Maybe it was 65, I don't remember now, the first level a reaver turns orange instead of red.


Prot Paladins are also currently overpowered like hell in lower level BGs. I've gone through levels 56-66 via BGing. The entire time I was a invincible whirling engine of death. Like, walk into a 1v5, walk out the winner with full mana and health OP.

I just played as a prot paladin. Dear God  :awesome_for_real:

Thanks guys

Ah those were the days.  I remember being able to solo the whole top floor of mobs outside of Black Temple, including an elite.  Good times.

Respecs now adjust cost based on your level.

Ahh, didn't know that but it makes sense. I had been wondering why the prices seemed all over the place.

Since starting this thread I've been collecting Cata greens for my PvP Prot Pally - mainly because I don't want to spend honor without seeing the new season PvP gear. I got a few green drops in the cata zone and picked a couple of pieces up at the auction house before the resellers got them. I find at 82 as Prot pally I can still destroy melee 2:1 easily and with a pocket healer I'm a steamroller with spikey wheels and wings. I run with resistance aura up and have eye for an eye 2/2 - not sure if I'll keep it as I may need the crit from other talents when I start reforging.

So even without resilience at 82, yesterday I came out of BG's with kills:deaths of like 17:3 (SotA), 14:0 (WSG) - this was the norm for the day not the exceptions. And even when my PUG faced a good premade where I was specifically assigned my very own hit squad to take me down (a rogue, a healer and a DK had me on /follow :p) I still got 7:4 in WSG.

So at least at 82 Prot Pally still has the tools to wreck.

However... I noted a marked decrease in the efficacy of WoG healing as a percentage of my total health. I'm guessing WoG may not scale too well from 80-85. Can any 85 shed light on this? I usually run with seal of insight and try to use my 3HP for those lovely SotR crits but now Ifind 1 point WoG is not much use.

Still - thus far I'm happy with Prot.

At 85 I have an average ilvl of 326 mix of blues/greens, with a couple of minor gems and the lesser of the rep shoulder enchants, putting me at 121k hp. 

A 3-holy power non-crit WoG is 12-13k.

In my average 232 gear from Wrath as Ret I was getting beaten on a bit in this xpac.  I've been unhappy with the addition of Inquisition into the rotation of Ret as it just feels like too much button mashing, so I specced into Protection yesterday.  I am a little worried about tanking for the first time, but as a solo player Prot blows Ret out of the water.  I can take on 3-4 mobs at once and end the fight at full health/mana.  As Ret, not so much even fighting one.

Good change, just need to get over my anxiety about tanking.

Ahhh... ok thank you.

So the scaling of WoG 80-85 is tiny. But, it appears that while Health pools have increased substantially and cata gear has insane stamina stats, that damage has not really increased that much from 80-85 (got this from trade chat) - in which case the fights will be longer and WoG heals as compared to incoming damage will be roughly the same as 80, at least in terms of effective damage control rather than as  a flat percentage of health?

If so, it looks like Blizz are trying to make fights last longer - which suits Prot just fine.

They are indeed trying to make the fights last longer, it was one of the things they'd said in the lead-up to Blizzcon.

I'm a bit worried about dps casters in pvp.  My priest is leveling up to 85 as shadow and I'm finding my mana dropping really damned fast now.  That's even with starting with like 56k (he's level 84 now.)  If a melee can last through a casters mana pool, they'll have their way with them unbarred.

On the other hand, healing will have the same issues.  I haven't been pvp'ing since Cata release, but it will be interesting to see what has really changed.  All I know for sure is, it will change.

Back on topic, I do predict Prot Pally's will do just fine.  Survive the initial spike damage and cc and you can wear everyone down eventually.  With Res items and cd's that shouldn't be a problem.

Prot's issue at 85 is being kited to death.


Caster/Healer issues at 85 is not being able to actually CAST spells and going OOM pretty much always and forever. Being a healer is particularly rough as you are beyond helpless now. Everyone DOES live longer admittedly, but there is no way to actually recover once your brought down a bit either.

What's happening is the DPS train is just getting longer on a target, while the healing just cannot keep up and/or is running totally OOM in 10 seconds.




Note: None of this applies to Frost Mages, they are as 'wonderful' as ever in PvP.  :oh_i_see:

Well, thus far I've sunk one point into Persuit of Justice (PoJ) for an 8% run speed boost - the second point will give me +15% run speed. Together with Seal of Justice I should be able to close the gap on runners - especially with the increased range of improved Judgements. Unfortunately this will only work if you can melee the bugger to proc the seal - it wont helpvs a mage free casting on you from that hill over thar... neither will it help vs anyone familiar with CD on HoF.

Still, with the 125k health pool he'll have to cast on me a while before I drop so maybe Eye for an Eyewill be more of a discouragment in a BG scenario...

This has always been an issue for protection. You need full PoJ and to use SoJ in PvP. Also, your main means of dealing with ranged is glyphed Avenger Shield and engineering toys. The latter is often an extremely nasty surprise to magelings and the like. I killed more than a few when they brought icelance to a pyrorocket party. The class that actually gave me the most trouble was warlocks. I had several rather memorable standoffs with them. They couldn't kill me (too many hps and EfaE), and I couldn't kill them (fears and the like).

The best way to deal with this is to bring friends. I normally ran with a DK and deathgrip was nice to have on voice command. Normally, most hordies assumed I was a holy paladin and swarmed me straight off. Most died before they discovered their fatal error in the victim selection process. Whenever I got snowed under I'd just tell my DK friend to kill so-and-so first (usually some damned stun-happy rogue). When the stuns wore off, we'd just mop them up.

Stuns are the other problem.  Past your bubble and a trinket, you are fodder for a couple rogues trading off stuns.

What class isn't fodder when jumped by two stun-locking rogues?

Mages escape stuns pretty handily.

I PvP with all the classes.  Yes, while 2 stunlock rogues is bad for all of them, I've found my paladin has the worst time in general.

The least?  Mages to escape and resto druids to survive.

Otherwise, yeah, it sucks.
 

No, there are still many more class/specs that have a harder time then paladins in that scenario.

I wrote my experience, not everyone else's.  I'm glad you have everyone's experience well in hand to speak for them.

Blood-spec DKs can be, depending on cooldowns (trinket the second stun away, Icebound Fort, death strike, thank rogues for giving you a 30K damage shield, watch a good three-quarters of them stand in shock when they realise you're not dead). But yeah.

Frost mages are who I despise right now.

Been doing 85 PvP as Prot these past few days new (that and getting my JC up for those lovely Chimera's Eye resil gems  :awesome_for_real: ) and I can safely say that burst is no longer there and I'm entirely dependent on 3-Holy Point SotR with the 100% Judgment crit to pose any kind of threat - and if they have any sort of healing I can forget killing them any time this week.

I do not have the Vengeful Glad weapon yet so my dps is not BiS - and I'm not sure I'll take this Prot into Arenas to get one. I can kill any melee class 1 v 1, even Freals are "doable". Casters who know their stuff are very hard to kill - Warlocks are doable but it's an epic fight and can go either way. Frost Mage? Forget it... root-root-pet root-stun-slow-iceblock-root-root-slow... you get the picture.

I'm basically good at killing melee, and I can be a real PITA for casters. I spent most BG's rooted or feared with no control of my character.

Being rather irritated yesterday after spending three BG's totally locked out or ignored by players with healers who know I can't kill them, I rolled a warrior to level 10, jumped in WSG and had a blast - only cc came from a Frost Mage nova and I killed the mage twice after I got free of the root, and a rogue's sap. The Rogue was level 14 and it was a good fight (which I won with 1% health  :ye_gods: ).

I may continue with the pally to get a full PvP armor set - but this will simply further polarize me into the corner "hard to kill but can't kill anything". Most of the BG kills I get these days are from HoW on some poor sap fighting over there... +1 for me.

Sorry to end this on a downer, but I guess the Prot just pays the price for all those 100%, 50%, 20%, 10% damage reduction CD's.

This whole expansion is pretty much heading down the TBCv2.0 road, and I'm not surprised to see protection pallies along for that ride. It was fun while it lasted.

On the other hand, bracket warriors are a hoot, aren't they? Mine is still sitting at 58 and might hit the 'Basin this coming weekend. I think it's AB weekend. Well, whenever AB weekend rolls around.

My account is not subbed at the moment, otherwise I'd be more certain in my talk about warriors.  But they have consistently gotten pretty fucking ugly mechanically nearing endgame due to stance restrictions, stance swap penalties, shield requirements for some pretty key moves, lack of ease-of-use fixes, and generally extremely high gear requirement.  I would wholeheartedly agree that level 20-ish is fan-fucking-tastic fun currently, but I'm not sure Blizzard has fixed the player vs. kludge yet.  So if shit starts going sour, shelve the character rather than doubling down in the hopes that it will get better, because I always end up grinding my warrior to cap and then getting pissed at myself for doing something that fucking stupid.

That being said, new tactical mastery and ability queue are promising.

AB is my favourite BG right now...it can be hilariously "Benny Hill Music Time" when Alli holds 3-4 bases and the Horde start zerging around with us re-zerging the bases they left behind.

 :awesome_for_real:

Anyway I decided to stick with my Prot to the bitter end. Alli actually got itself organised last night in IoC (gunship on gates, paratrooper in, seaform gate, kill boss, fast win) and then won Twin Peaks 3-0. I felt a bit better... though I really feel the lack ofProt damage now after going at it for close on 5 minutes none-stop with Blood DK - we both just stopped and went our separate ways.

At the end of the day I still have fun - and that's what keeps me subbing.

Arms Warriors got 3 amazing new abilities in Cata, Throwdown, Heroic Leap, and Colossus Smash. They usually tear up the BGs. I'm not really an expert on them though.

Actually, I ran into this before 4.0 when still playing in the 79 bracket on my protection pally. Blood was never a joke and had a lot of staying power. I recall a fight I got into outside the horde fort with a combat rogue and a blood DK. That was a long fight. The rogue perished somewhere in the middle of it from all the collateral damage, but I eventually wore the DK down and took her out with HoW after all her damned cooldowns finally ran out. It was quite the knock-down, drag-out fight and easily went 4-5 minutes.

Throwdown is cool.  Heroic Leap apparently has even more broken pathing than Blink does.  Colossus Smash is just a damage button.  Managing all your buttons is problematic enough as Arms, my warrior really does not need three more.  Oh, and they kept all the RNG bullshit that fucked Arms as a DPS class in Wrath even worse than the simulators indicated.

Colossus Smash leads to ridiculous burst in PVP.

I can imagine.  I didn't say it was bad, because I really don't know where they all sit, but it completely fails to interest me.  Bigger numbers.  Yawn.

It's completely broken atm, its leading to two shots  :awesome_for_real: