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Title: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Sheepherder on April 19, 2009, 01:30:15 AM
Just throwing this out here (so it can be torn to shreds):

Gear reliance is an issue with MMOs, largely because progressing through the elder content requires you play previous content, which stratifies the player base pretty badly and hits the newbies and casuals pretty hard, because if you aren't putting out [big number] DPS this late into the [elder content] you must be bad.  It also makes it difficult to precisely balance any given class when you have over a half dozen variables which can drastically impact player performance.  Blizzard already has made one pretty significant leap of faith with their homogenization of raid buffs, which means you bring the player not the class... sometimes... once you got all the needed buffs anyways. :why_so_serious:

So here's the question: instead of buffs from different classes not stacking, why not have buffs and stats from gear not stack?  There are a few ways to do this: using hard caps on stats (which full coverage of buffs max out), using the larger of your gear or buffs contribution to a stat, or having the gear itself provide class buffs appropriate to level and gear quality (passively).  All options  effectively mean that while outside of instances your relative power is unchanged from the old way of doing things, as soon as you enter a place where you can expect class buffs you are effectively indistinguishable from people in full end-game gear.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: DLRiley on April 19, 2009, 05:19:39 AM
You have to actually know the problem to really come up with a way to solve it. Your just attempting to work around it, coexisting with it, and not expecting devs to take the easy way out when by their own design their game suppose to reward people with large noob pwning benefits. I won't be surprised if future games made gear so powerful you can just about say your literally carrying a nuke.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: IainC on April 19, 2009, 06:47:38 AM
The better solution is to have a less extreme gear curve so that the difference between a maxed out suit and average gear that anyone who plays the game at least reasonably frequently can get is on the order of a few percent not 50%+.

Buffs on gear not on classes is also a possibility but the main 'solution' is to not have such a huge disparity in the first place.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Fordel on April 19, 2009, 09:44:43 AM
Stat Caps, the end.

X cap for Gear
Y cap for Buffs


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Nebu on April 19, 2009, 09:54:34 AM
Stat Caps, the end.

X cap for Gear
Y cap for Buffs

This is a solid idea, but, particularly in pve-based MMO's, players need a carrot to keep chasing.  What's the point of continuing to grind encounters and faction if you've already capped your abilities?

Stat caps and flattened gear curves are the key to balance in pvp games, but they remove an important carrot for the pve enthusiast.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: IainC on April 19, 2009, 10:02:53 AM
There's also the D2 method where there are only a limited number of static items and most stuff is randomly generated.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: DLRiley on April 19, 2009, 11:01:34 AM
Stat Caps, the end.

X cap for Gear
Y cap for Buffs

This is a solid idea, but, particularly in pve-based MMO's, players need a carrot to keep chasing.  What's the point of continuing to grind encounters and faction if you've already capped your abilities?

Stat caps and flattened gear curves are the key to balance in pvp games, but they remove an important carrot for the pve enthusiast.

Well to be honest that's not really true. People will bitch and moan about the effort required to wear super bad ass gear that give no real stat increases. Dumb yes, but it has been done and been observed and the game did quite successfully. Its the cap that are quite lame in theory and in practice since your still saying gear matters but your talking the "but not that much" route which doesn't impress players at all except the fanboies.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Nebu on April 19, 2009, 11:05:02 AM
I can't argue with the dumb things that players will do.  I will say that a certain percentage of the playerbase will figure this out and unless the gear looks better, will opt out of going after gear they don't need.  I think this could have the effect of hurting retention in a pve title. 


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: DLRiley on April 19, 2009, 11:36:06 AM
I can't argue with the dumb things that players will do.  I will say that a certain percentage of the playerbase will figure this out and unless the gear looks better, will opt out of going after gear they don't need.  I think this could have the effect of hurting retention in a pve title. 

You mean make it more casual. Then again my case in point was guild wars, which has repeatable missions and no sub fee. I wonder how well easily accessible instances that are played for fun instead of loot would be received in a subscription game


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Nebu on April 19, 2009, 11:44:25 AM
You mean make it more casual. Then again my case in point was guild wars, which has repeatable missions and no sub fee. I wonder how well easily accessible instances that are played for fun instead of loot would be received in a subscription game

Fun is subjective.  Some people are killers, some explorers, and some achievers.  The explorers will enjoy the new instances for a fresh diversion, but you'll always leave the other two out in the cold. 

MMO's fall down when they try to please everyone.  If more titles would target smaller audiences, we'd all win.  You just can't print money hats this way... which is what all investors want.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: DLRiley on April 19, 2009, 11:52:17 AM
You mean make it more casual. Then again my case in point was guild wars, which has repeatable missions and no sub fee. I wonder how well easily accessible instances that are played for fun instead of loot would be received in a subscription game

Fun is subjective.  Some people are killers, some explorers, and some achievers.  The explorers will enjoy the new instances for a fresh diversion, but you'll always leave the other two out in the cold. 

MMO's fall down when they try to please everyone.  If more titles would target smaller audiences, we'd all win.  You just can't print money hats this way... which is what all investors want.

Well the problem is niche games being made with mainstream money. Once your budget is peaking way past the 1 million mark and struggling to stay below the 50 million mark than your no longer talking about a niche game. Achievers don't really need personal nukes as reward for grind, but then again you probably might want to avoid making your game feel grindy. i mean I'm sure that there is a balance between feeling like you earn something vs grinding for it....like in single player games... and appealing to the "I one shot noobs" crowd will generally lose you more money than you hope to gain from appealing to them.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Stormwaltz on April 19, 2009, 01:15:52 PM
I hate the idea of raiding for gear. Hate hate hate. You should raid because it's fun, because you enjoy raiding. Not because you need to play the same fucking content six times for every member of your guild to get everyone equipped.

I'd try replacing raid loot with crafting recipes that allow you to build the rewards as many times as you want. Each copy made might require a trophy that drop >50% of the time from every mob in the raid - not just the boss(es). Every copy is flagged bound to members of the crafter's guild (as the time of creation).


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Nebu on April 19, 2009, 01:30:22 PM
I'd try replacing raid loot with crafting recipes that allow you to build the rewards as many times as you want. Each copy made might require a trophy that drop >50% of the time from every mob in the raid - not just the boss(es). Every copy is flagged bound to members of the crafter's guild (as the time of creation).

LOVE that idea.  It makes raiding worthwhile.  It makes crafting worthwhile.  It allows those that don't wish to raid access to the gear as well. 

The only problem is that MMO players will jump through crazy hurdles to be a special snowflake.  All you have to do is to tie raiding to something that makes them unique without altering the balance of play.  Something like unique or faster mounts or capes that look pretty.  Trophies for housing are also a great option.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: pxib on April 19, 2009, 01:58:08 PM
Go over and look at Guild Wars, where folks grind gear for the challenge rather than because it's necessary for competitive play.

Armor is almost entirely about visual appearance and epeen. There's a little grinding for runes that improve it. Weapons are equipped for their specific, fixed enchantments rather than their stats and damage capacity, not unlike WoW's trinkets. The depth of improvement is shallow (few tiers) but broad (many options).

Other than that I second the comment that gear being more important than skill is actually a positive thing so far as many companies are concerned, since it allows a larger percentage of the gaming population to feel powerful enough to continue paying subscription fees.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Ingmar on April 20, 2009, 03:19:44 PM
I hate the idea of raiding for gear. Hate hate hate. You should raid because it's fun, because you enjoy raiding. Not because you need to play the same fucking content six times for every member of your guild to get everyone equipped.

It keeps an element of character advancement in the PVE game at max level, though. And if your end game is raiding, then the loot is just a means to an end anyway. You aren't really raiding 'for loot' except insofar as that's part of how they gate the next raid up.

It is really only crossover with PVP that gets people raiding who don't actually really want to be there (see: Trials of Atlantis, Kel'Thuzad weapons in the current WoW arena season, and vice versa in for example WoW's previous expansion.) That's the actual core issue that needs a solution; the raid/gear paradigm works quite well for PVE-only environments already and makes a pretty good number of people happy to boot, so I think it needs to be solved in a way that doesn't disappoint that already existing, lucrative crowd of people.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Fordel on April 20, 2009, 03:25:41 PM


It keeps an element of character advancement in the PVE game at max level, though. And if your end game is raiding, then the loot is just a means to an end anyway. You aren't really raiding 'for loot' except insofar as that's part of how they gate the next raid up.




No, I would say most people really DO raid for the fucking loot, the end.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Tarami on April 20, 2009, 03:41:30 PM
No, I would say most people really DO raid for the fucking loot, the end.
I know that quoting without adding anything doesn't, well, add anything, but;

This.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Nebu on April 20, 2009, 03:46:11 PM
WoW is an exercise in pushing the same buttons repeatedly for hours on end just to have a few pulls at the slot machine.  It's really about that simple. 


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Ingmar on April 20, 2009, 03:56:32 PM
WoW is an exercise in pushing the same buttons repeatedly for hours on end just to have a few pulls at the slot machine.  It's really about that simple. 

This is just going to devolve into a flame war rather than a discussion.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Ingmar on April 20, 2009, 04:04:22 PM


It keeps an element of character advancement in the PVE game at max level, though. And if your end game is raiding, then the loot is just a means to an end anyway. You aren't really raiding 'for loot' except insofar as that's part of how they gate the next raid up.




No, I would say most people really DO raid for the fucking loot, the end.

Because loot, in the 'default' form these days, is character advancement. Character advancement is why people play PVE MMORPGs. If they were just PVE games this would not be a problem at all. It is trying to graft PVP systems onto games that were fundamentally designed from day 1 as PVE games that causes problems. (Or, again, vice versa as was the case with DAOC, when they grafted PVE onto a PVP-centric game.)


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Nebu on April 20, 2009, 04:10:48 PM
This is just going to devolve into a flame war rather than a discussion.

I didn't intend that at all.  What I was trying to get to the heart of was that PvE-based MMO's, at their core, are little more than repetitive exercises that reward the player with a pull at the slot machine.  It's the pull at the slot machine that keeps players playing. 

It's not all that different from golf.  For the novice, it's often that "one shot" per round that will keep them coming back for more. 


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Ingmar on April 20, 2009, 04:21:46 PM
This is just going to devolve into a flame war rather than a discussion.

I didn't intend that at all.  What I was trying to get to the heart of was that PvE-based MMO's, at their core, are little more than repetitive exercises that reward the player with a pull at the slot machine.  It's the pull at the slot machine that keeps players playing. 

It's not all that different from golf.  For the novice, it's often that "one shot" per round that will keep them coming back for more. 

Hmm, maybe. My feeling is that it is the 'ding' of character advancement more than anything else that keeps people interested. In a game with levels, you can't just keep letting people level up infinitely really, so the 'ding' of a gear upgrade replaces the one from leveling up. There's definitely something else involved psychologically when you get the random nature of loot in the picture as well, but the various things put in to WoW (and WAR) to alleviate randomness, like the gear tokens and badges and such, tend to argue that the 'thrill' of the lever pull isn't really the major thing involved I think. After all, those systems were put in place largely because of player complaints about the randomness.

WoW's achievement system would be another good example of this. It even does the ding/grats announcement to the guild line for you, and people (myself included) will do them just for that feeling of 'I did something'.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Nebu on April 20, 2009, 04:24:30 PM
Hmm, maybe. My feeling is that it is the 'ding' of character advancement more than anything else that keeps people interested.

Keep in mind, for many players in many MMOs the subscription length to cap is shorter than the subscription length upon achieving cap.   This reinforces my assertion that the loot rewards outweigh the ding-gratz rewards though both are obviously very important in the grand scheme.  One to hook the fish.  The other to reel them in. 


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Tarami on April 20, 2009, 04:42:29 PM
Ok, I'll stop QFT'ing and try to add something to the discussion.

If we look at FPS'es, especially older, simpler ones like Quake, I think it's pretty evident that they work with "gear" (armour, weapons, power-ups and ammo) because you're continuously proving that you've truly earned the stuff you're toting. When you stop performing, it's taken away. Then if you start performing again, you get it back. I think this is an important clue that permanence doesn't work for gear in MMO PvP. Everybody you're fighting needs to know that you have your stuff because you're good, and not because you've, as Nebu put it, spent weeks at the slot machines.

In a game of old-school deathmatch, people won't bitch that you have the rocket launcher, even if you've had it the entire game. They'll bitch about the Earth being round and sun in the eyes and God knows what, but they won't really ever complain about the advantages other people have gained from being better players. They might because they're frustrated, but nobody of any skill will truly believe it. So gear isn't a problem in itself. They're even central to, what I imagine most people here think, more or less pure skill-based games.

I think this mindset needs to be moved to MMOs for PvP in combination with gear to be really successful. Fixing it with caps and such is, to me, just a band-aid and just makes it less obvious that it was material advantages that made the particular player win a duel. Somehow the players need to be constantly reevaluated and stripped of things they, contextually, no longer have rightfully earned to have.

Maybe you should just be let to loot complete sets of PvP gear from eachother, I don't know.

Edit;
Just a non-elegant idea that struck me;

How about letting people build two different sets of gear - one base set and one target set. Sets can be built from any loot you ever acquired and each piece has a cost in points. The base set is worth a fixed amount that's universal and can never be changed. Every player has the same budget for this set. This is the loadout you have when you enter PvP or if you die in PvP and respawn.

The target set is the set of stuff you want to "drop" from PvP. This set is budgetless and can be as cheap or expensive as you like. Every time you kill a player, they award you a number of points based on how many points they had acquired themselves. If they have no points, they're worth a small base amount of points. As you successively gain more points, pieces you have in your base set will start to get replaced by pieces in your (hopefully better) target set. If you stay alive long enough, you'll sooner or later end up with your complete target set and be able to kick major ass for a while, until the zerg gets you.

Ok, flame on folks.  :eat:


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Sjofn on April 20, 2009, 07:18:22 PM
If you're going to have PvP wedged into your game somewhere, you need to have stat caps. It's why I've completely given up on WoW PvP.

In a strictly PvE world, though, I don't see the gear thing as a big deal, although the shit I've heard about EQ1 sound like the worst case scenario as far as that goes, and I definitely think that should be avoided. :P


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Triforcer on April 20, 2009, 11:07:50 PM
As others have said, this doesn't really matter in a PvE MMO.  You need something to get people coming back.  Make armor with zone-wide shoulderpads and 1 billion stam and int, I don't care.


But the PvP situation is more complicated.  There are two ways (at the extreme ends of the spectrum, obviously most games will have elements of both) to increase chances of success in PvP:

(1) Have better gear (in a heavily-gear-based MMO)

(2) Have more skill, be it reflexes, tactical thinking ability, etc. (in a more skill-based MMO).

An FPS is (2).   Pre-BC WoW (hi2u Arcanite Reaper) was largely (1).  The problem is that sliding closer and closer to (2) ISN'T ALWAYS A GOOD THING FOR A DEVELOPER.


Why?  Because in a (1) type PvP game, everyone thinks they have a chance to be a PvP god.  And as long as they aren't completely functionally retarded, if they amass enough gear, they will be a PvP god compared to those without gear.  Its a bargain everyone can strive for and everyone can attain- more time spent=greater PvP success.

(2) is very different.  Its chess or Counterstrike or anything else where everyone has "equal" gear.  You may be able to get a little better, but you will hit a ceiling and those freaks above that ceiling will proceed to own you 99% of the time.  You can't stop it, and after a certain limited amount of advancement more time spent won't solve it. 

That's why (2) isn't the holy grail of PvP MMOs as some make it out to be.  You create what is functionally an FPS, and you'll lose the non-FPS crowd.  The downfall of skill-based PvP is that most of your subscribers have no skill.  Thus, give em gear to stomp the poor scrubs who don't have it.   


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Fordel on April 21, 2009, 12:53:36 AM
Because loot, in the 'default' form these days, is character advancement. Character advancement is why people play PVE MMORPGs. If they were just PVE games this would not be a problem at all. It is trying to graft PVP systems onto games that were fundamentally designed from day 1 as PVE games that causes problems. (Or, again, vice versa as was the case with DAOC, when they grafted PVE onto a PVP-centric game.)


You are completely underestimating the "haha, I am better then you, you loser" factor with gear. People don't sit around Dalaran on their protodrakes because it made their character more powerful.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: DLRiley on April 21, 2009, 05:55:20 AM
That's why (2) isn't the holy grail of PvP MMOs as some make it out to be.  You create what is functionally an FPS, and you'll lose the non-FPS crowd.  The downfall of skill-based PvP is that most of your subscribers have no skill.  Thus, give em gear to stomp the poor scrubs who don't have it.   

The Gaming Industry proves you wrong. 20+ years worth of wrong. Jesus christ, the people who don't want their ability to win AND lose based purely on skill ARE niche gamers. Only games it works remotely on are games that are PVE based like WoW and EVE which have a large number of pve'ers that eventually get bored and get their shit and giggles from occasional entering pvp with their uber tier gear and one shotting people who haven't "earned" their skill. Otherwise, your never going to make ANY money on a gear centric PVP game EVER and that has been proven for 6+ years.

Sjofn if gear matters in a linear way in your game, even if its just in pve, no point in attempting to add an extra layer of code in for pvp (and I'm sorta curious how that would work in a persistent world pvp). Your game will NEVER be taken seriously for pvp just by having a linear gear system AND pve'ers will bitch and moan that their hard earned shit is being taken away from them when they try out pvp. Your not doing yourself, or the playerbase any real favors.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: proudft on April 21, 2009, 09:54:05 AM
Keep in mind, for many players in many MMOs the subscription length to cap is shorter than the subscription length upon achieving cap.   This reinforces my assertion that the loot rewards outweigh the ding-gratz rewards though both are obviously very important in the grand scheme.  One to hook the fish.  The other to reel them in. 

I'm the opposite.  I keep leveling characters, get 'em raid ready, and then my interest in 'em tanks.  You go from getting a level every couple of hours or so - reliable whee! - to maybe a piece or two of raid gear upgrade per week.  That difference in pacing is a real bummer for me.   :uhrr:


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Nebu on April 21, 2009, 10:23:52 AM
I'm the opposite.  I keep leveling characters, get 'em raid ready, and then my interest in 'em tanks. 

I'm the same as you are.  I enjoy the trip to the end more than the end in most all games.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think we're the norm. 


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: IainC on April 21, 2009, 10:30:59 AM
Most of the people in my DAoC RP guild were exactly the same, they enjoyed nothing more than rolling an alt and chugging through the quests to 50. Despite the fact that most of them defined the term casual, they could still get TOAd up to a respectable level in a couple of weekends. Once they were 50 with the artifacts, quest gear and MLs they liked, they'd roll the next one.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Ingmar on April 21, 2009, 10:43:05 AM
Hmm, maybe. My feeling is that it is the 'ding' of character advancement more than anything else that keeps people interested.

Keep in mind, for many players in many MMOs the subscription length to cap is shorter than the subscription length upon achieving cap.   This reinforces my assertion that the loot rewards outweigh the ding-gratz rewards though both are obviously very important in the grand scheme.  One to hook the fish.  The other to reel them in. 

My point is that all getting a new piece of loot is, is just another kind of ding/grats, though.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Ingmar on April 21, 2009, 10:45:19 AM
Because loot, in the 'default' form these days, is character advancement. Character advancement is why people play PVE MMORPGs. If they were just PVE games this would not be a problem at all. It is trying to graft PVP systems onto games that were fundamentally designed from day 1 as PVE games that causes problems. (Or, again, vice versa as was the case with DAOC, when they grafted PVE onto a PVP-centric game.)


You are completely underestimating the "haha, I am better then you, you loser" factor with gear. People don't sit around Dalaran on their protodrakes because it made their character more powerful.

Sure for some people that is true. I don't think that is how the majority of people see it. I'm as much a loot whore as anyone, but what I actually care about is hitting those milestone numbers on my character sheet - 30k hp, 25k armor, whatever. Its the character advancement. Its the same thing for dpsers mostly- its not the particular item, its that it lets them climb the dps meter. Vanity items like mounts tickle a slightly different reflex I think.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: AutomaticZen on April 21, 2009, 12:49:26 PM
Because loot, in the 'default' form these days, is character advancement. Character advancement is why people play PVE MMORPGs. If they were just PVE games this would not be a problem at all. It is trying to graft PVP systems onto games that were fundamentally designed from day 1 as PVE games that causes problems. (Or, again, vice versa as was the case with DAOC, when they grafted PVE onto a PVP-centric game.)


You are completely underestimating the "haha, I am better then you, you loser" factor with gear. People don't sit around Dalaran on their protodrakes because it made their character more powerful.

Sure for some people that is true. I don't think that is how the majority of people see it. I'm as much a loot whore as anyone, but what I actually care about is hitting those milestone numbers on my character sheet - 30k hp, 25k armor, whatever. Its the character advancement. Its the same thing for dpsers mostly- its not the particular item, its that it lets them climb the dps meter. Vanity items like mounts tickle a slightly different reflex I think.

This is why, theoretically, any equivalent gear you provide outside of raiding needs to take longer to get.  Because otherwise, who wants to go through the shitstorm of getting together 25 people for the 'chance' to get an item?  Just better to grind that shit out alone.  It's why I was glad Blizzard added the 10-mans in Lich King.  Easier to get people together. 

Really, people only raid for the 'joy of the raid' until they're seen all the content.  So maybe once or twice through.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: DLRiley on April 21, 2009, 12:55:12 PM
Wouldn't that mean raiding is unfun and is a horrible game mechanic if it needs to be propped up with rewards? God mmo's are backward.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Ingmar on April 21, 2009, 12:58:18 PM
Wouldn't that mean raiding is unfun and is a horrible game mechanic if it needs to be propped up with rewards? God mmo's are backward.

If there's any content at all in a game that DOES offer a reward, you have to put a reward of some kind or another on everything if you want it to be used. Raiding could be the most fun thing ever, but it would be hard to stop people from grinding foozles to go do a raid if the foozles offered a more tangible reward than fun.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: AutomaticZen on April 21, 2009, 08:00:49 PM
Wouldn't that mean raiding is unfun and is a horrible game mechanic if it needs to be propped up with rewards? God mmo's are backward.

No, it just means that most people play through PVE content once or twice for fun.  Like if they were playing Mass Effect or something.  Add having to figure out the logistics of getting 10+ people together, and it becomes less fun.  Hell, getting people for a 5-Man in WoW can sometimes be a chore.  But if you did everything by yourself, you might as well play a single player game and save you $15.  And even then, I'm not playing Mass Effect again.  Which means in an MMO, they get no monthly fee.  They need you to pull the slot machine as many times as possible.

Raiding needs better rewards not because it's harder skillwise, but because it's a pain in the ass getting people together and keeping them together. 


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: IainC on April 22, 2009, 12:57:33 AM
Wouldn't that mean raiding is unfun and is a horrible game mechanic if it needs to be propped up with rewards? God mmo's are backward.

The first rule of MMO social design is that if there are two options in front of a player, one of which maximises fun and the other which maximises reward then the players will almost exclusively do the second while complaining that there is no fun in the game.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Fordel on April 22, 2009, 09:24:33 AM
The second rule is the developer will never put the reward on the fun activity.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: pxib on April 22, 2009, 02:14:07 PM
The second rule is the developer will never put the reward on the fun activity.
Not exactly. "Fun" is relative: what I enjoy, another player finds dull and frustrating. This wouldn't be a problem except that Rule One declares that whichever activity provides the reward will attract the players. No matter how much I might have loved it before, stuffing it full of people who despise it but are going through the motions in order to gain advantage drains the fun out of anything.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: AutomaticZen on April 22, 2009, 07:23:36 PM
The second rule is the developer will never put the reward on the fun activity.
Not exactly. "Fun" is relative: what I enjoy, another player finds dull and frustrating. This wouldn't be a problem except that Rule One declares that whichever activity provides the reward will attract the players. No matter how much I might have loved it before, stuffing it full of people who despise it but are going through the motions in order to gain advantage drains the fun out of anything.
Indeed.  'Grinding' is the repetitive task that you don't want to do to get to the reward you want.  The task changes from person to person. 

Raiding might be more fun if you could do it solo, but then a great number of people would.  Which would lead them to ask... why am I paying you?


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: damijin on April 26, 2009, 11:26:18 AM
didn't read the thread, but original post is all tail wagging the dog backwards.

I mean, for starters, gear reliance isn't a problem. Secondly, if it was a problem, it wouldn't exist because gear is somehow essential to MMO design, gear reliance exists because players want gear reliance (to a point).

They want to advance their character and get cooler and cooler shit that makes them stronger and stronger. It's a huge part of what makes MMOs fun. If you consider that a 'problem' then you probably consider levels a 'problem' too, and either shouldnt be designing MMOs, or are going to make a bland piece of horseshit.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Votan on April 27, 2009, 08:11:34 AM
I hate the idea of raiding for gear. Hate hate hate. You should raid because it's fun, because you enjoy raiding. Not because you need to play the same fucking content six times for every member of your guild to get everyone equipped.

I'd try replacing raid loot with crafting recipes that allow you to build the rewards as many times as you want. Each copy made might require a trophy that drop >50% of the time from every mob in the raid - not just the boss(es). Every copy is flagged bound to members of the crafter's guild (as the time of creation).

The problem with this lies in that you can only design so much content, players will always consume more content especially once a game reaches the point of maturity than developers can effectively put in the game.  You need something to keep players doing the content available till you are able to introduce new content.

You could design the raid instance of raid instances and give players the ultimate “wow” factor but that only last for a certain period of time, once players “beat” the content what is the “need” to repeat it, what is the carrot to keep players doing the same content till you can release more?   

While recipe drops and components is a good idea, if you have at a 50% drop rate or greater from every mob to drop the crafting component as your example, usable by every class, you have just made your ultimate raid instance short lived.  If you have it to where it is class specific and a low drop rate you are not really changing anything only replacing the grind for the leet glowey weapon of doom that has a 1% drop rate with recipes and components.

Unless you are super company and plan on releasing large amounts of content in a very short window on a very regular basis, this just will not keep players having the fun you are suggesting, because players will do it just for fun a few times, or till they have “beaten” it, after that it becomes the same old and no longer “fun” and you will have to have fresh content ready and waiting or you are going to start losing your player base to other games, and you may or may not get them back when you get to releasing new content.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Stormwaltz on April 27, 2009, 08:55:50 AM
You need something to keep players doing the content available till you are able to introduce new content.

Not to repeat what others have already said, but I think what should keep players doing the content is the content being fun.

If someone enjoys grinding for the sake of grinding, fine.There are plenty of Korean MMORPGs for them. I'm 34 now, not 25. My design goals have changed. I want to entertain players, not beat them in a contest of my level design vs. their ingenuity, or punish them with a marathon steeplechase.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: ezrast on April 27, 2009, 09:58:29 AM
So why hasn't someone made an MMO where the content (including gear) is procedurally generated? Conceptually, you could do away with caps altogether and just make a system that scales to infinity for a neverending supply of ding-grats. Realistically you would want some kind of cap, for PvP parity if nothing else, but there's no reason for content in MMOs to be as static as it is. At very least, randomize the loot tables so that if I need one piece of gear, I have more than just one boss to kill over and over to get it.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Stormwaltz on April 27, 2009, 10:32:30 AM
So why hasn't someone made an MMO where the content (including gear) is procedurally generated?

AC1 was overwhelmingly procedurally generated loot. As time's passed, it's gained more and more quest items.

Content is a tougher row to hoe, due to sheer complexity. AO experimented with it. Back in the day I designed a procedural task system for Ninth Domain (don't bother looking for info on it; it died in the first trimester and was mourned by few), largely inspired by the LucasArts Desktop Adventures games.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Ingmar on April 27, 2009, 10:32:55 AM
So why hasn't someone made an MMO where the content (including gear) is procedurally generated? Conceptually, you could do away with caps altogether and just make a system that scales to infinity for a neverending supply of ding-grats. Realistically you would want some kind of cap, for PvP parity if nothing else, but there's no reason for content in MMOs to be as static as it is. At very least, randomize the loot tables so that if I need one piece of gear, I have more than just one boss to kill over and over to get it.

I don't know how well Diablo-style drops (Boss X drops random loot from a huge table) would work with an MMO (speaking in terms of the 'fixed' loot in Diablo, not the random stuff.) I mean, if you're targeting one piece of gear, it might be better to take your 25% shot once per day than a .5% shot from every boss, in terms of your own time management. A world-wide boss loot table would be better for the people who spend hours at it a day, but significantly worse for the people who just do one dungeon a night or whatever.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Tarami on April 27, 2009, 10:59:51 AM
Procedural content is balls, that's why. Even Diablo 2 is not as procedural as it makes out to be. You're still in a specific act, killing a specific boss, which drops a certain range of items. All the interesting things in Diablo were fixed (Horadric cube, runewords, skills et.c.) It's just the same thing most dikus do, just turned on its head making people focus on the generator patterns instead of the game design patterns. People figure out what parameters they will have to feed the system in order to produce a benefical result. In short, if you remove all the hand-tuned and hand-crafted things, you'll end up with a dish of bland with sauce blandnaise. A system that always does everything "half right, half wrong" and never "mostly right" the way hand-crafted content can.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: ezrast on April 27, 2009, 11:08:31 AM
Honestly, the inclusion of so much unique loot in Diablo 2 always perplexed me. It makes sense for quest rewards and trinket-like things with special effects but I don't see the point in having such a wide variety of randomly generated items if in the end you're not going to be wearing any of it anyway. That is, I do see the point, I just think the point would be pointier if everybody and their armor maintained their unique snowflakeosity throughout the endgame.

Would Diablo 2 be better if the dungeons were handcrafted and the same every time?


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Ingmar on April 27, 2009, 11:16:05 AM
Honestly, the inclusion of so much unique loot in Diablo 2 always perplexed me. It makes sense for quest rewards and trinket-like things with special effects but I don't see the point in having such a wide variety of randomly generated items if in the end you're not going to be wearing any of it anyway. That is, I do see the point, I just think the point would be pointier if everybody and their armor maintained their unique snowflakeosity throughout the endgame.

Would Diablo 2 be better if the dungeons were handcrafted and the same every time?

But they essentially are - the only thing that really changes is the layout and some minor changes in monster assortment, and that doesn't change so much as to make the experience more than trivially different. The 'important' stuff is all fixed. This dungeon always has Mephisto in it, etc. The loot is all over the place, but then again I can kill Pindleskin a lot more times in an hour than I can Kel'Thuzad.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Tarami on April 27, 2009, 11:24:08 AM
Drops were 95% rubbish, 4% decent and 1% good. That was also 100% made-up statistics, but you get the point. So drops weren't very random, they were almost exclusively crap, which is very demoralizing for someone not in the mood for another twenty instance runs.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Nebu on April 27, 2009, 11:57:14 AM
Keep in mind that drops in any game only become rubbish when you get one of the good drops. Until then, all drops seem good.  It's an illusion of sorts.

It's like the experience in WoW beta where you would agonize over which green drop to use.  Then you'd get a blue drop and feel stupid that you ever worried about it in the first place. 



Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: ezrast on April 27, 2009, 12:05:05 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I think a little diversity goes a long way to keeping the game interesting. We're going to be doing 20 instance runs per upgrade either way; I'd rather run 20 different instances and find a sweet random thing that nobody else has than run the same instance 20 times, be the 150,000th person to get Bob's Axe of Wildebeest Slaying, and then never set foot in that dungeon again.

edit: Also, no fixed items means no absolute best in slot gear, which means even top geared players can still strive for better loot.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Nebu on April 27, 2009, 12:08:10 PM
Unique loot makes game balance more difficult than it already is.  It also penalizes players that come to the game late.  Why?  Unique loot implies that noone else can have the same item.  Once you get a unique item, that is like checking that item off a list.  If you're the 1,000th person to get a unique item, what does the next person get?


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Tarami on April 27, 2009, 12:09:02 PM
Problem is that while you might do twenty runs of one instance out of ten for one particular item right now, in a random system you'll end up doing two-hundred runs in the same or one of very few instance(s) that have the best time:reward ratio. Shortest distance to the first boss, most bosses per yard or whatever the criteria might be. See: Mephisto-runs.

Fake-edit:
I don't think he meant actually unique. I think he just meant "possibly unique" as the stats are random.

Real edit! Grammar snake!


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Ingmar on April 27, 2009, 12:12:06 PM
Random loot also takes away a balance tool from devs, it should be noted. When you can fully design loot with the exact stats and benefits you want to appear on it for a given class or whatever, you have much tighter balance control than you do with a random system it seems to me.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: ezrast on April 27, 2009, 12:19:18 PM
I've been using unique in the Diablo sense; that is, unique loot has fixed stats and is actually less unique than randomly generated loot. It was "unique" in Diablo because it could come with stat combinations that normal items couldn't have, not because there couldn't be more than one of them. In this sense, every purple item in WoW is unique.
Problem is that while you might do twenty runs of one instance out of ten for one particular item right now, in a random system you'll end up doing two-hundred runs in the same or one of very few instance(s) that have the best time:reward ratio. Shortest distance to the first boss, most bosses per yard or whatever the criteria might be. See: Mephisto-runs.
This is just a tuning issue, though. Drop rates can always be adjusted so meaningful rewards are plentiful and distributed evenly. Even if they can't, other means can be used to incentivize unpopular dungeons.
Random loot also takes away a balance tool from devs, it should be noted. When you can fully design loot with the exact stats and benefits you want to appear on it for a given class or whatever, you have much tighter balance control than you do with a random system it seems to me.
Yes, but it also creates just one more place to have flaws in the balancing. At least with random loot, when somebody out-dpses you you can just blame it on bad luck. Then it's neither your fault nor the dev's.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: IainC on April 27, 2009, 12:39:18 PM
Random loot also takes away a balance tool from devs, it should be noted. When you can fully design loot with the exact stats and benefits you want to appear on it for a given class or whatever, you have much tighter balance control than you do with a random system it seems to me.

If you have a class/archetype based system then you can get around that by having per class stat caps to prevent any egregious extremes. If you don't have any class or archetype systems then your point is valid.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: ezrast on April 27, 2009, 12:44:32 PM
stat caps
Gear is more than just stats, though. Caps can't solve the issue of balancing a 15% chance to drain 500 life over 10 seconds against +10% mana regeneration and lowering your target's armor by 100.

Yes, I'm arguing against my own side here.

edit: Oh hey, this point actually addresses the original thread topic, too. Score!


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Ingmar on April 27, 2009, 12:51:07 PM
Random loot also takes away a balance tool from devs, it should be noted. When you can fully design loot with the exact stats and benefits you want to appear on it for a given class or whatever, you have much tighter balance control than you do with a random system it seems to me.

If you have a class/archetype based system then you can get around that by having per class stat caps to prevent any egregious extremes. If you don't have any class or archetype systems then your point is valid.

But wouldn't stat caps plus random stats on gear create an optimization nightmare for players? I guess it depends on how complicated your stat system is to start with.


Title: Re: Gear reliance in MMO's, simple solution(s).
Post by: Sheepherder on May 05, 2009, 01:29:17 PM
I mean, for starters, gear reliance isn't a problem.

Ward gear.

If you want to troll here come up with something that isn't utterly shortbus.  And no, blurring the lines by using mechanics other than straight-up resistances doesn't help, it just means that players set arbitrary boundaries for exclusion when they're setting up a group when they don't have a "cap" or "requirement" they can use for exclusion.  Or are you going to inform me that splitting your player base is good in an MMO?

Quote
They want to advance their character and get cooler and cooler shit that makes them stronger and stronger. It's a huge part of what makes MMOs fun. If you consider that a 'problem' then you probably consider levels a 'problem' too, and either shouldnt be designing MMOs, or are going to make a bland piece of horseshit.

1. Guild Wars.  Because people will work for gear just for looks.
2. People want better, it doesn't have to be all the time.  See option #3, which rewards getting geared with drastically improved solo capability.
3. Levels are a problem.  See the sidekicking in CoX, proposed for Guild Wars 2, and scenarios in Warhammer.



The above few posts is why I like the idea of class buffs being placed on gear.  You could do it randomly, and it wouldn't hurt because you're sort of expecting those buffs, and if you play with the idea of similar buffs excluding each other or with the notion that similar buffs only stack a certain number of times (ten unique strength buffs in game, you can only have three at once) you can keep a modicum of sanity.  Alternatively, making it so that stacking a few stats across your entire set is impossible (maybe only weapons give +damage buffs, armor only gives longevity stats) would solve some of these issues.

And yes, really complex systems of stats are a pain in the ass.