f13.net

Press release:
FAIRFAX, VA - March 24, 2004 - Mythic Entertainment, developer and publisher of the award-winning massively multiplayer online role-playing game "Dark Age of Camelot," today announced that it will use EMotion FX 2 in all current and future games as the next step in the evolution of the player experience.

"We look forward to adding the EMotion FX 2 engine to our games" said Mark Jacobs, president and CEO of Mythic Entertainment. "This great piece of technology will both save time and add features to our games that will make them even better."

"Our clients use EMotion FX 2 to improve the realism and believability of their game characters to a level that gamers have never experienced before," said John van der Burg, President of Mystic Game Development. "Since the recent release of EMotion FX 2, we have had a growing number of game developer and software tool companies license our product. In this case, we are delighted to announce that Mythic Entertainment will be using Emotion FX 2 to bring gamers an enhanced gaming experience."

Worst idea ever.
DAoC is about large scale battles with nifty spell effect and its own styles for models and animations. It will turn in a laggy, photo-realistic clone of EQ2 wax museum.

Go to the developers site of this plugin and you'll see just boobs. This just to follow the stupid trend of Lineage 2. When the game is out of ideas you need boobs. Oversized boobs and thongs.

Obviously DAoC needs to specialize in large battles, scenery, armies and so on. Instead it will go with the emotes, facial expressions and other stupid features. Packed in a new expansion box with "The new frontier of grind" as a subtitle.

But look at that Bikini Line!

I blame Lum.

FIFY.

Quite frankly, I welcome some T&A in DAoC, especially if each realm gets Its own unique style of assfloss. The game is visually soulless and there is little to no difference between the realms – both in character and landscape. ToA ruined most of the game’s remaining appeal. Maybe this will do something to make leveling my Fool’s Bow at least mildly entertaining. W00t for h4wt redheaded norsewoman hunters.

My only questions are:
1) Will we be able to "redesign" the appearance of  current characters when they convert to the new engine, 2)How far towards "big" will the slider for my character's rack go, and 3)Does the engine possess Lineage 2's amazing ability for my character's cans to smack together when she runs?

All kidding aside, this is great for the game. It effectively moves the game from "2nd" to "3rd" generation without the cost or time of developing a new game. The result is that people will feel much less inclined to drop the game to move onto the next level of shiny since the shiny will show up at the feet of their current level 50 characters they've spent the last few years establishing in a community. With this engine upgrade, literally the only reason to switch games is if you hate the game itself. In which case it's doubtful you'd still be playing it. It's win/win/win for Mythic and people still playing DAoC, with the exception of people with extremely low-end PC's.

An appreciative golf clap at the cunning whoever decided to make this move.

Just because the developer has boobs doesn't mean DAOC is going to. I certainly hope not, it's one of the nicer games to play because you're not forced to look like a streetwalker.

I think DAOC is quite smart in upgrading the engine rather than releasing a new game. Particularly since with frontiers they're proving that they're willing to replace huge portions of their game.

Shame they can't do something real about bots.

ok, so from what i gather, this new tech also has something to do with the nifty facial appearances and high quality models that get shown off in Half Life 2.

If that is the case, how is this going to affect the system requirements for the game?

While it is a nice idea to freshen up the look of the game to keep the walking wallets in your corner, if your update also requires a new graphics card, more ram and a faster CPU, chances are you are going to drive off more credit cards then you keep.

My mmorpgs blur so I could be wrong.  Isn't DAOC the one that removed some taunt because parental figures were crying about its crudeness?  It was /crotch or something similar.

Yes.  It was players who complained.

I guess I was thinking 'parental figures' due to the fact that most of the posts were of the 'I will no longer allow my kid to play!' variety.  I thought the taunt was a stupid addition to the game but there were some serious headcases that came out of the woodwork due to its inclusion.

I kind of figured that the no-b00biez characters actually drew people (especially female gamers) to DAOC.

The most important thing about this proposed graphic expansion is whether we can keep using the old clients to participate in RvR.  Rumor has it that support for the Classic client is going to be dropped after Frontiers, I'd be sad to see SI get dropped and have to use the ToA client for anything other than ToA stuff.

I don't get why a new graphic engine makes it an eq2 clone.  If they draw the artwork like eq2 and texture and shade it like eq2 then okay.  But to my knowledge nobody has seen any of the new models.

Are they even making new player models anytime soon?

EQ has a new graphics engine rolling out in a few months as well, but the launch is intented to look exactly as it does now but just run better.  Then in the future they plan to slowly add more art that uses the new features.


I just don't see the big deal.  Boobs have little to do with the graphics engine and everything to do with the artists.

My beef with games that have a lot of T&A (like L2) isn't that they are there.  Heck, you all can play what you like and all that.  I won't burst into flames playing it either.  The main issue I have, as a parent (yes, here it comes) isn't that my kids will play it either.  I won't let them play stuff like that until they are older but that doesn't mean I have to force the devs to change their concepts/art.

My problem is that I cannot play games like this because I play my games with my family around.  I'm not in the basement in a closet with the lights off.  I'm right off of the living room in the open.  I play while the kids are watching TV or playing or whatever.  I do this on purpose because computer time is a replacement for TV time for me, but I still have to be available to my family.

As such, my kids like to watch me play the games sometimes.  They ask questions as I'm playing (non-stop actually but that is another story.)  My biggest fear is for them to see dark elf mistresses in stiletto's and thongs and ask what is that?  How the hell can I answer that one?

So essentially, I would play the games, but cannot.  If you put in T&A, great.  However, you will be excluding some people and not just because it burns their eyes!

UMMMM, WHAT THE FUCK? (http://www.emotionfx.com/protomgd2004/img/screenshots/ElectraPics.jpg)

I'm deeply disturbed by that image. Yet, strangely excited as well.

No, that was Anarchy Online. They removed /ass and /crotch (scratching animations relative to those parts of the body). They did add /adjust though, which does the same as /crotch used to do...

The answer is no. The change over from classic to SI as the base is not a rumor, it was announced in the last month. Inevitably this will cause the classic client to become essentially a free download or part of a bundle with SI for new adopters. I personally like the change to better graphics if they can hold up under the pressure, but odds are they won't on things like relic raids and major battles. Time will tell there.

DAoc also lost the /taunt emote. Or rather, they changed the animation for it from the typical "I've got a big tonker" to a wing-flapping "you're a chicken".

I don't mind a graphics engine upgrade unless they turn it into plastic shiney land like the EQ2 screenshots.

Or you could do like I do and say, "That's a Dark Elf. She's evil.. watch what she's about to do.."

Everyone has different levels of tolerance for different things.  I don't like playing gorefests around my daughter, but I don't have a problem with the Dark Elves in Lineage 2, etc around her.

From looking at the features listed (http://www.emotionfx.com/protomgd2004/features.html), it seems to me that the engine enhances animation, not modeling.  Meaning, you take the existing models and give them facial expressions and some new animations.  

I don't think it forces them to use L2-style models, or even anything with T&A.  The chick shown in the Emotion FX site is almost naked for publicity reasons, but what's important about the engine is that, with it, she (and the models in your game too) can SCOWL at you while kicking you in the groin.

And you think this will help? They will need to convert YEARS of graphic data, redo all the animations, all the textures, model every different type of armor and so on. You think they will concentrate on making chars more different?

This will simply turn DAoC's graphic like ass. I bet we will see different models and textures melted together to reduce the number of different models. And I've looked to the features too. I don't think DAoC needs lip synch.

It will turn in a "pop of detail" fest.

Every new "plugin" they add to Netimmerse brings its own, unsolved, issues to the game, I wonder what will happen with this one.

Two comments:

1. Without boobs, chicks are just crossdressing gay men.

2. After seeing the images on the dev site, I'm surprised that we're talking about boobs when over half the shots displayed some of the biggest cameltoe MMOGs have ever seen.

To be fair, my eyes often can't make it much lower than the nipple line when the breast is twice the size of my head.

Chicks lack prostates.

On a side note (just to not waste another thread on it):
Mythic has released the planned RA system:
http://www.camelotherald.com/newfrontiers/realmabilities/index2.php
http://www.camelotherald.com/newfrontiers/realmabilities/abilities.php

A quick glance at it (and a few discussion threads) shows that it's well planned but it's also aimed to catassing for teh win. It will produce a huge difference in "performance" between the casual guy and the tight RR8+ guild.

I can already foresee the hate produced in the long distance: casual players will hate the catasses because they cannot do anything against them (aside zerging), the catasses will hate the casual players because the combat is not "fair" and they will be zerged no matter of their power. At the end both will complain about the game not being "fun".

Just an example for everything else: An ability like Master of Concentration (which allows you to cast for 30 seconds without being interrupted) is now easily gettable for casual players. And it's a must due to how crappy are interruptions in the game mechanics. Well, the first common version will provide only 25% of the damage of a standard spell. Instead the third (for catasses since it "asks" you exactly 30 points. A LOT of points) will offer 75% in effectivity.

Summarizing, what I see it's an increased gap between the beginning of your RvR career and its end (RR9). And so between the players involved in the battles.

It also hints an endless rebalance and nerf, both before and after release. Another side effect is to make never solved balance problems even more glaring.

Considering the whole thing it's obvious as this whole problem exists because of another, biggeer and deeper one: fair combat.

- FPS offer fair combat because you enter in an instanced zone with equal team numbers and equal "starting conditions" (read as: same raw abilities).

- DAoC is umbalanced even in the structure. It offers an environment where you can "meet" a single player or an entire zerg. It also offers a deep gap in abilities and possibilities due to the PvP treadmill.

Till DAoC (and every other mmorpg approaching this structure) won't solve these basic issues it won't offer "fun" gameplay. Quoting myself from an old post:

" fairness of combat - diversity of the gameplay - fun

Still the same three issues.
Zergs, buffbots, realm imbalances and cheats are examples of non-fair combat (and they destroy the fun as a consequence).
Or Mythic starts to work on *game systems* that solve these issues or the whole new expansion will be 'fluff'.

The new RA system will damage directly the "fairness of combat" because of the increased treadmill. Mythic again plans a nifty system that won't solve anything important: "The time has come for us to unveil our proposed game plan for the new Realm Ability System. We understand that this is very important to the Camelot community and we realize that we're making some very large changes here."

Same trend of the whole industry, timid design that won't offer nothing new aside unexpected (negative) side-effects.

More summarization: They are building on top of a flawed system.

P.S.

They also lost another occasion to address another huge and well known problem, the insane combat speed. The early reports about WoW duels tell that PvP is a lot more solid, with fights not lasting just a few seconds. We'll see what happens.

Fixing game issues with RA's is and always was a mistake.

It's not simple. Actually they went back that path. For years they balanced the RvR using the RAs. Now they are going back because the system will become unified, with no difference between the realms (and dumbing down the game because the difference is one soul of it).

But, without addressing classes balance, they will simply make the umbalance more glaring with this unified system.

Instead what I complain is about problems even more at the roots of the game, which I summarized in three key points. Fairness of combat, diversity of the gameplay and fun.

In my point of view those problems are sticking with every game type which presents any form of PvP.

Hrose, I shudder to think what strained thought process took you from "Mythic is changing DAOC's graphic engine again" to "Mythic is reskinning Hibernians as big-titted, thong-wearing elf bitches".  If you actually do have a time machine, then post some screenshots of the new DAOC player models to back up your claims.  If not, how about waiting to actually, you know, SEE what Mythic's artists and coders produce before screeching OMG MYTHIC IS RUINING THE GAME AGAIN!!!!!!

Frankly, using this engine and keeping anything close to the current models is a waste and negates about 80%of the advantages of switching - and that's assuming they can even use the current models in it. Nevermind that the models are hopelessly dated at this point, their faces aren't designed move, and the model scowling without the skin going with it would look like there was a hamster crawling around in their mouth.

That aside, the game needs some spice, and 3 slightly different versions of 3 slightly different kinds of 3 different armor types would barely cut it. Crafters, myself included, have been screaming for the ability to chose from a variety of skins to mix and match when crafting armor, and this would be an excellent time to include that feature.

One thing this engine offers that THEY ABSOLUTELY NEED TO USE in RvR is collision detection. God, a shield wall that enemies can't just run through...

But that also requires mass and impact calculations, otherwise a 1-person-deep row of fighters can stop a whole cavalry division like a steel-reinforced cement wall.

And if combat included horses, that would matter.

The move to using SpeedTree when ToA was released was a great move as it improved the performance of the engine for large scale battles. If they can implement EMotion FX 2 to the game without degrading performance, then good for them. It'll be interesting to see what happens. Hopefully, New Frontiers will boost RvR a bit, but the barrier to entry for new players these days is really high still.

Then again, EMotion FX 2 may come into play for battles on ships and, as mentioned above, possibly mounts (note this is not stated anywhere by Mythic, but is certainly a possibility for the game)?

You aren't obviously able to part the cheap attack I made to Mythic from the true point. A character engine focused on facial expressions, morphing and so on isn't an engine that fits in a game about large scale battles.

I would expect a different set of features from this overhaul. It's obvious that (aside the graphic result) it will only make the game worst (I mean client lag and so on).

P.S.
Soukyan you are the first I hear to say ToA is faster than SI engine. Grab FRAPS and take some tests.

I have and it is faster. My friend has complained that it is slower, BUT that's because he is suffering from old EQ syndrome. Attempting to run newer expansions on an aging PC that needs upgraded in several ways. On a recommended or better system, the ToA engine cruises. But again, that's just my experience with the game.

I would not call what you describe as old EQ syndrome.  SoL engine runs like a dog on a system that has no client side lag issues with SWG at all with just as many or more avatars in the area.

EQ engine does not run 'well' on anything.  At least not as well as it should.  They are supposed to have their new engine in about 2 months though.

Yea, because nobody (http://www.everquest.com) has ever (http://www.uo.com) done that before right?


You have the tech to back this up? How much of this is client side? I've seen SB do some amazing shit. The worst "lag" seems to come from moving across or near zone borders. If 120 people go at it in a siege situation, I have yet to see unplayable frame rates. And this in an engine that was old when DAoC launches. And, SB Asia client rev from En-tranze is promising an entire graphic retrofit.

Seriously, first you're worried that New Engine = Tits, ignoring the fact that artists decide what shit looks like and the engine decides how much of it they can draw. Second, you're now implying that because the engine provides more details in facial animations that there'll be a penta-fold increase in server communication or graphical processing needs or something that ignores, just as hazardously, the realities of a client-side Options>Graphics window.

Screenshots don't tell a good story for MMOGs. Yea yea, another soulless near photo realistic image. Woot. They'll always show the best available on a system optimized for it. Or, something that only the top 1% of FPS players bothers building.

DAoC needs art. I don't care if it's three headed medusas in drag. There is no style to the characters. They've done some admirable work on world design, but the characters within are chaste beyond reason. The game makes Star Trek: The Next Generation look like a porno flick.

If new graphics means new ways to flex creative muscle, it can only help DAoC.

As to pissing off the parents? Well, I still accept Nick Yee's median age for players at 24, and given the IDC and NPD reports from the last few years, the smart money targets that. I'm a parent. I'll migrate eventually to living room entertainment (http://www.grimwell.com/index.php?action=fullnews&id=93) even if it's my PC hooked to an HDTV I'm still researching a way to justify ("here baby, how about carrying this big glass of water over there for awhile?").

But I don't play this shit while my kid is awake anyway. Way too much intense mental investment to split it that way. Unless I'm playing Eve ;)

This is by design.  EQ leaves some calculations to be done by the client, namely things related to character movement.  For some reason, doing this requires that everyone have the same, poor, framerate.  It's what lets hacks like 'gear' work.  If you heavily load your CPU while EQ is loading, then remove the load once you're in game, you get great framerates, even with large groups of people.  You also can outrun stuff you shouldn't be able to, and things like lev don't act quite the same (iirc, you don't sink like you should).

The fact that EQ runs bad on purpose is one of my problems with the game.  After one engine upgrade, that situation is still there, and I don't see them removing it in any future engine upgrade.

--
Alkiera

Why does everyone assume that anyone who doesn't want gaming to be some kind of cheesecake is a parent trying to impose their will on a game they don't play.

Frankly, the avatars were one of the nicest parts about DAOC. And the difference in how seriously women were taken in the game was very very obvious.

 I just figued they were looking at the morphing and other engine features for the RvR stuff.  Wouldn't it make sense to Morph from a non-damaged wall to a damaged wall over time as attackers damage it?  It would look pretty stupid to go from "perfect wall" to "10% damage wall" in a blink of an eye.

There. You don't need morphing or 3.0 shaders to destroy a fucking wall.
Walls have collapsed since forever and without looking crappy.

Most of what DAoC needs is about raw graphic inspiration and talent, plus a way to channel all this in a fast engine that allows the game to run smoothly during sieges.

This new stupid engine DOESN'T provide inspiration nor talent. It provides just tech. Tech made to LAG MORE, without adding a single feature I would judge *useful* for the game.

Because someone said above they had an opinion "as a parent". I was talking to that type of impression.

I'm sorry that the target audience likes anatomically impossible women. When you've changed prime heterosexual male psychology, give me a shout.

Hrose, I still think you're mixing things up. It's not causing more lag to change the graphics engine. It's making the game more marketable.

The games coming out in '04 and '05 are going to beat the crap out of anything released before. SWG is going to look tired by the standards coming, regardless of how scalable the engine is. And this domination is partly driven by stylistic concerns.

Anyone can do realistic. Realistic requires more coding talent than art. The height of the bar isn't being raised here.

It's being raised by more dynamic graphics, more flashy bangys, more over-the-top character models. And wherever people go, others will be compelled to follow.

DAoC needs to keep up at least in the area of deep graphics. It's gonna make people upgrade, but that's worked for SOE. Twice.

Edit: formatting

I don't see this happening. WoW is the best looking game to date, imho, and it offers an OLD engine technologically wise. They choosed to have the performance high on their priority list. So everyone will be able to play the game easily. And I support this choice. I will play 100 times better a game with more soul and less empty tech than something that shows nice features on the box and moves like a slide-show.

Again, I knew Mythic was going to remodel the characters. I expected them to just tweak what they had now, with the same engine (and still I was worried). If they choose to change the engine I would expect it is toward something useful, like optimizations created for battles and so on. Instead I've read a list of features completely useless.

I still think that SWG doesn't look good at all. I really laughed at peoples sitting on the void, shuttles flying through ceilings and trees and pets allowed in small corridors with 2/3 of their bodies out of the ceiling. The environment was just a good texture for the terrain, two sets for the grass and a few trees, repeating ad infinitum. The characters had a lot of personalisation but they simply looked wrong, terribly wrong when in action.

I still like a lot more what DAoC has to offer now than what SWG does, graphically (and I know *a lot* more players that didn't play the game due to hardware requirements than players that are sticking to it due to graphic beauty). Then again, this is about human graphic talent. When I hear about technical changes I would expect something in an useful direction, instead I've read a list of features that don't add anything to the game aside, probably, even more lag.

Also, I bet it's a huge work to convert years of art. Wanna bet that they will make things all look the same because they won't have the time to reconvert everything?

Perhaps I'll be wrong and they will be able to have more variation, along with a good performance and a boost in the graphic inspiration, but I'm not going to have confidence in this. They could still remade the whole think with models with thousands more polygons but looking even worst than now, killing both the performance and the graphic quality.

Also, if you think the biggest menace to DAoC is the graphic of their models, I'll really have to laugh.
Anyway, I'm all for a continued development. I loved DAoC mostly because it's the fastest growing game world on the market. They did a wonderful work with it. But I see the ambition dying and the game trying more to keep its condition than evolving. It feels like someone starting to show its age and not willingly to move so much anymore. Better defend than to attack.

I've seen it in action (not just screenies). Trust me, it's not old tech. They chose for it to look that way for stylistic considerations, but it's does some pretty funky stuff.


Have you been reading only what the engine seller is saying or how Mythic plans to use it.

You mention the effort again. UO and EQ both had a lot of work done to them. En-tranz's efforts with SB Asia will only be slightly less. EQ has had it done twice now. It's doable if it's worth it, and Mythic thinks it is.

I never said DAoC has a menace in its graphics. I said they were lookng to keep up with everyone else. That's voluntary. UO continuing to exist at all is proof that graphics are a "required" update.

I dunno man. I don't get the connection between what a company uses to advertise its engine, how a game will lose all of it's mature chastity to that engine and how this will hurt the players. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe DAoC toons will all become variants of the L2 Dark Elf chick. But right now it sounds like fear of change more than any actual analysis.

There's nothing in the press release that specifically says Mythic are going to actively favour boobies over framerate, or that the engine can't be tweaked to give benefits in one direction or the other.

But unfortunately, the history of both the SI and ToA engines was (from most players point of view) Mythic favouring too much of teh shiny over speed.  

As others have said - any change to better engines needs to focus on  large scale rvr framerate above anything else.



And that's fine - so long as they can do whatever they want to do at 25 frames per second with 100 players in view, and without me having to turn down functions that directly impact game play, like clip range or spell effects. If they can do that, then I'll be happy with any amount of plastic skin and basketball sized boobies.

Uh, no.  You'd be suprised on how many players use and still enjoy the 2D client.  On Im Por Yelm, for example, the majority of players still use the 2D version.

Now rather than argue why UO lost players or how it retains current players and the nature of graphics therein, let me just move onto the greater arguement - that being graphics are a very minor portion of the overall project.

Examples in favor of this idea are the relative popularity of Meridian 59, AC and EQ in comparison to the much more shiney AC2.  Really, graphics don't matter in comparison to gameplay and plain old resistance to change.

If your players have grown use to a certain format (UO 2d or the near cartoony DAOC), I don't see why you would feel the need to overhaul your engine with something that could easily create more problems (lag, implementation bugs/crashes) than benefits.

No, not surprised. That was my point :) Graphics do not need to be updated for the game to still be playable. I've hated every iteration of the *cough* 3D client of UO since I beta'd it. If I ever go back to UO again, I'll be playing 2D.

But to your second point, I disagree


Graphics overhauls aren't just for the current players. In fact, I'd argue that fans of a game are inherantly conservative about massive changes to it like this. They are comfortable with how things are, and I doubt anyone would claim they left a game because they liked for months and months due to the graphics.

Nah. These sorts of things are to enhance the marketability of the game to new players.

Wait. Noone use the 3D engine simply because it's crap. UO is the perfect example of a world left dying. I've played in it for more than two years and it's the *less* evolving world. From every point of view. There are bugs in the 2D engine still there after YEARS of development. If UO is going to loose toward the competition it's not because it's old. It's because they let the game world die.

The last year (it was last year or two ago?) they rised the price with tons of promises about new updates and so on. Instead the updates simply stop for nearly a year. This only to publish a patch allowing character transfers behind a price. I consider this more like a fraud than a mmorpg service.

I really don't think UO should be taken as an example. The possibility to play it on lower end hardware is.