f13.net

Alright, all this talk in the top 10 MMO thread has got me remembering all my MUDs, so put up your favorite MUDs, codebases, etc, etc.

Genocide - One of the finest pure PVP muds ever made, still running afaik, I've got a regulator and a dev buried somewhere.

Godwars - A DIKU without the diku, pure pvp, no levels, xp trained hp/mana/skills, great fun.  Actually ran my own called Asylum for awhile, learned how to code there.

The Two Towers - LPMUD, afaik still around, father was one of the coders (if you played, he did Erebor), got my first glimpse at C.

Asylum(? Don't actually remember the name) - LPMUD, all the different classes were forms of disorders, pyromaniac, necrophiliac, kleptomaniac, etc, etc, I still remember hitting the north pole to get those antlers for some pwnage.

- Mud whose name I cant remember, pure team pvp, rounds lasting like 15m-1hr, goal was to get down and push the nuke button.  Most memorable quote would have to be when you finally found the minigun lying on the ground somewhere - MINIGUN! LOCK AND LOAD!

Theres probably others, and there were(probably still are) hundreds of GodWars muds out there, my favorite aside from my own would have to be Darkheart, they did some nice tweaks that I can't remember.

Haha that's funny you played some of the same ones I did. The PvP one you are thinking of is Ground Zero.

My favorite MUDs:

Kobra - Star Wars, PvP, actual factions, awesome hack-n-slash combat (including droids!), space flight and space fights, multiple planets, the bestest!
Ground Zero - Present day (tanks, guns, etc) round-based PvP game that allowed you to look down halls, throw grenades over walls, and hit The Button.
Genocide - I played this more to play the side games (checkers, chess, poker) than the actual PvP; I died a lot.
Avatar - Basic Merc mud, but met a lot of folks there that came over to my Smaug-based MUD later.
Tron - Tron-based PvP duels in various arenas with different weapons (platforms, cycles, etc), leader boards, and tournaments? Yes please.

Edit to add:

Thunderdome and Thunderdome ][ - ROM I think, ][ being a lot different than ].

I've played a lot of other ones, but those are the ones that stick in my mind right now. There are certain songs I'll hear on the radio that'll bring me back to those days sometimes.

See, the problem with this is that there were so damn many. :) I'll just mention a few, and leave out ones I worked on.

Worlds of Carnage.
MUME.
DartMUD.

Ah Batmud.  What horrible things you did to my GPA.   

Mozart MUD - It was a heavily modified DIKU, with a lot of custom zones.  99 regular levels and 11 avatar levels, plus enough immort level to reach 125.  Still DIKU at its core though.

I spent years addicted to this one.  I made several zones, touched up many more, and honed my now deteriorated coding skills here.  This place also taught me it is better to assist the people in charge than to be the one in charge.  I never would have visited Canada without a few friends I made here.

Really?  What was his handle?  I may have known him.

Ground Zero! Right on the tip of my tongue, I loved that fucking game!

Genocide had a hell of a learning curve, you really had to know 3 or 4 areas by heart and clear em fast to get enough heals to competive, but the ol' noob drop a s beholder and invuln was always good for a kill!

Why can't any MMOs have shit as fun as we were playing 10 years ago?  If WoW had a GZ arena where you all spawned naked and had to grab weapons/ammo/tanks/push The Button I'd be playing that right now.

I'm still waiting for someone to show up who actually played my GodWars MUD though, I'm fairly certain we were the only mud around that allowed players to launch ascii cows worldwide in pvp for massive damage.  (By catapult, if you were wondering)

Roac - Moki

LambdaMOO - still incredibly influential

Arctic - first MUD I spent entirely too much time on

Midpoint Void - MUD I settled on after wandering around for a bit after Arctic shut down. First real team-based PvP MUD I played on ("lighties" vs "darkies" until that got changed for PC reasons).

CircleMUD - worked on some of the docs for that codebase

PernMUSH - Only MUD I spent any time RPing on.

For some reason I never got into any of the LPMuds I tried. I liked how the ROM MUDs allowed you to create custom classes using a point system but I never got into any of those either.

I'm just going to say that my Mind is Blown that MajorMud doesn't have a linux conversion so people can run it on a regular webserver. I would by that on day 1.

As for standard MUDs, I built in more than I played in.

Oh really? I spent a lot of time in the Circle codebase when I launched my first MUD. I still remember how cool it was to get the Oasis Online Editing patch to work! :) :)

I spent most of my mudding days playing Battletech MU*.  They had a pretty nice, text-based, largely rule-accurate, but real time simulation of the tabletop game.  This was distributed around and formed the basis of what would eventually become dozens of different MU*, most of them quite short lived, some more improved than others.  Some had prescheduled scenarios, others were 24/7 simulated environments, some had a "sim" setup that involved grinding credits earned from matches for better mechs. 

Then there was Varxsis, which used the Battletech MU* code for a 24/7 environment, but totally did away with all of the Battletech designs and instead had various unique mechanics like "Crawlers" (mobile bases owned by player guilds), and special suits that ejected pilots wore.   I wonder what happened to the guy who was running that.

The only real Dikumud I sunk any significant amount of time into was Realms of Despair (http://www.realmsofdespair.com/).  I didn't get to a very high level - I apparently knew Diku-muds sucked even back then.  :oh_i_see:

Diamond - A Circle MUD and my first real foray into online gaming. However, 99% of the population was European, so between lack of players when I was on and the whole "English, mothafucka, do you speak it?" thing, I didn't stick around long.

Monolith - A heavily SMAUG modified with 100 player levels, this was the best online gaming I've ever had. Great PVP, many custom areas, constant clan wars, even exploiting to victory (getting drunk so force triggers failed ftw). When the admin left, a friend and I took over, but we were poor kids without access to mommy's credit card (or any coding experience besides HS-level VBASIC), so it didn't last.

DBZ[Prime] - A PVP heavy game where primary advancement came from sparring with other players. So, of course we macro'd the hell out of it. No world to speak of, but the combat was fun. Declaring the recall room as our clanhall (and violently enforcing it) was the best.

Act of War - Great ROM, 3 (then 4) faction PVP, most of the world was unique, and had a lot of cool features. Roped a lot of RL friends into this, which led to us all getting into MMOs, and we still speak with horror of the salt mines.

The only sorts of muds I ever really enjoyed playing or working on were lpmuds.  Discworld being my favourite, of course.  Batmud, eotl mud, lustymud, muddog... all pretty fun, some gone.  EotL was really weird.  It had all the old stuff like a humpbacked bridge and a go player, mixed up with stuff people seemed to make on the spur of the moment.  I think it's theme was clutter or insanity or sommat.  Most of the ones I played are probably gone. 

No more though.  I need pretty stuff and I like to see what I'm killing nowadays.

There may be many muds, but for me there can only be one: Genesis.
The inventors of LP-Muds, later changed to CD code base. Played it for 5 years or so. It's still active. Its where I got my user name that I've been playing as since then. A nice mix of different fantasy areas, with Krynn and Middle Earth most prominent. No default classes as a diku mud, but instead fun guilds such as the Knights of Solamnia, Blue and Red Dragonarmy, the Rangers of Ithilien, the Army of Angmar or the Morgul Mages.

They had some really advanced ideas that I think today's mmorpgs could learn from: Descriptions instead of numbers for stats. You did not know a players name until they introduced themself. Some fun half-allowed pvp, allthough the politics around it could get ugly.

I loved my MUDs

After my BBS days of Tele-Arena and MajorMUD I went on to play the following exstensively:

SojournMUD - I played this game before and after the first "wipe".  I played this game and Toril and Duris for years to come.  Toril and Duris were off shoots of the origonal.  My main character names from this game was Tykre and Tosk among a few others.

MidPointVoid - I played this PVP game a lot.  I even went on to develop or "build" for these games.  After MPV I went on to play Lands of Chaos and MPV2 etc.  They all had the same people playing.  My main characters there were Xrin.  It was an interesting game.  There were a core group of us that played this game and all of it's offshoots together but never really communicated outside the game itself.  We just followed to the next one.  I wonder if those guys are still out there.  I'm sure they're not playing those MUDs these days still.

An assortment of other games I've played:
Darkover
Shattered Kingdoms
Aardwolf
Arctic

There was one other game that I played that was coded built and coded? by a guy name Moag that I played a few Sojourn games with.  I can't remember the game though.  It was uniquely coded.

Any other MUDers out there that played MPV and all the other Emlen coded ones?  It would be cool to find some of the people I played with.

Edit:
Ground Zero was an awesome game!  I loved that thing.  I played it a long time ago and it always had a lot of people playing.  Went back years ago and there was hardly anyone there.  Shame.  I'd play a graphical version of that game for hours.

Ah, MUDs.    Most of the ones I played were WoT RP-centric ones, but I dabbled in others.  Most were ROM/ Circles and I tried SMAUG when it first came out, but didn't like it.

The two I spent the most time on were The Weave, and Waterdeep.  Waterdeep was interesting.. a mish-mash of standard areas cobbled-in with Final Fantasy stuff the 16 year-old admin was coding himself.  Usually pure crap, but it was interesting with a decent group of people  and a pretty large following (about 500ish regulars) for a random, fairly generic MUD.

I recall trying either Sojurn or Toril because I'd heard good things about them.  My name was rejected, however, and I e-mailed the admin at the address given in the "if you want to contact us to discuss why your name was rejected" response.  What I got in return was a 2-page tirade along the lines of, "this is my work address, don't fucking e-mail me here again. You think I have time to deal with you assholes..."

Yeah, needless to say I didn't try again.

I tried out a few GODWARS muds, too.  Lord knows there were a lot of them for a bit there. Don't think I stuck around for more than a few hours, though.

So who else used Zmud.. or were you one of those lamers who declared how MUD interfaces were 'ruining the games' and 'only for folks who "don't get" MUDs?'  and "provided an unfair advantage."   :awesome_for_real:

ZMud rules.  I loved the basic features it provided (aliases, triggers).  Didn't much like some of the more advanced stuff that let you bot, mainly because my sentiment is that if you bot, you're not playing.  There's a "play better" vs "play for me" line that I didn't like to cross, or see other people cross.  That's standard fare for online games though.

I used it.  I loved my Zuggy, and I hugged it and I called it Pinkfish.

zmud pish posh.

Raw telnet or later Tinyfugue!

When I was playing heavily I used TinTin++ to do scripting and colorizing (before muds did that themselves), I think I had whole scripts that would travel me to point x, heal heal heal, rest......ok go! Plus some other wacky stuff 'cause I was too lazy to type and watch it - true afk gaming!

I used Zmud extensively, particularly the database stuff combined with triggers, which could let you program a pretty inclusive state machine if you wanted. I mostly used it to track semi-invisible variables on muds that didn't expose all your numbers to you.

Anyway, the notable stuff..

CircleMUD, because I played a couple of these in the mid-90s and learned some C dinking around with them. Particularly some hard lessons about proper memory management and string manipulation. :uhrr:

Cryosphere, which introduced me to iDirt-derivatives and puzzlemuds. I wrote a few decent puzzles for this one, and I think it's still around.

DartMUD, which I still have creatorship on. Played this from '02 onward, I think. LPMud with permadeath, player politics/policing, deep crafting, huge world. Lots of stuff for explorers. Running a spy ring and infiltrating the major player-run political organizations was fun. Then I turned into a coder and wrote a bunch of stuff. Now I log in once every 3-6 months to say hi.

AVATARMud, an uber-Diku. Levelgrindily awesome back in the day, when I still enjoyed levelgrinding.

Oh yeah and...

Alan Lenton's Federation, a social/economic game originally back on the proprietary online services of the early/mid-90s. Now available to the general public, but I quit in '97 when it went from F2P (funded by AOL) to hourly. Playing the economic system and hanging around with random other internet people was fun and probably shaped my early relationship with the internet far more than is healthy.

What was your char names on Avatar?

Shit, I don't even remember. I played for like 2-3 months and never made Hero, let alone Lord.

Used zMud for a while, but then switched to MushClient.

I got to Hero with one of my characters but god forbid doing another 999 levels to get to Lord! For crying out loud!

Gotta go with tintin++ on my BBS's unix shell. 

After that I used hacked zmud programs or ytin+ or some other programs.

I've been known to use raw telnet programs associated with Qmodem via BBS telnet protocal.

I toyed around with MUDs in college and oddly enough didn't play one until after I had played Ultima Online/EQ.

AnimeMud: Again this was somewhat odd in that I had maybe seen 2 or 3 anime movies, so 95% of the references were lost on me.  It was a pretty solid DIKU.  There was a great auto questing system, a lot of customized gear (colorable also), solid room design, and at the time great mod/admin interactions.  Plus, I enjoyed the highly colorful, huge combat damage text. The PVP scene was very active. The admins/mods are really what made it great for me.  Heck, I even got to set up my own MUD-wide quest that filled in my character's background story. It was awesome with everyone participating.  It was like the crap they tried to do in UO/EQ with admin run holiday/event quests that never worked, but this one did. 

Unfortunately, the mods/devs are what broke it also.  I suppose that's what you get when everyone knows each other (all same college) and those relationships fall apart.  Sucks when your favorite mod gets demoted and a couple admins leave over who's fucking who.

DragonRealms:  A mud from Simutronics.  I had a lot of fun with this one even if I didn't get anywhere higher level.  It had a pretty oppressive grind.  Still, it had a great world, permadeath, a combat/damage/death system that I've never seen anyone better, and more depth than I've seen anywhere else.  The social atmosphere was great, but the roleplaying was pretty sporadic for a mud. There was a high powergamer contingent.

It was a pay MUD though, and when friends stopped playing it,  I stopped also.  The grind was just too much when your focus shifts to advancement.

Arctic Mud: A Dragonlance mud, so I wanted to like it.  However, every time I tried it, some higher level dickhead would PK me in a newbie zone.


I can't remember the name of the other DIKU I played a lot.  It had a really active PK/PVP population as everyone was open game from the start.  Had a terrific remort system as well, but I just can't remember the name of it.  Nija introduced it to me a long time ago, but I don't think he ended up playing there much.

Wheel of Time MUD (http://wotmud.org) - good eq based PvP and quality zones

I used to play a (bbs?) mud called Valhalla, which was a year or two before I got my own internet connection (i think it was in 1994).
As far as I understand, it was run by Michael Seifert, one of the guys who designed the original dikumud.

Anyone have a MUD recommendation for someone who's interested in exploration, not a fan of roleplaying, and not a fan of DIKU-style levelling up or grindy combat?

The first MUD I played, and really the only I could ever get into, were the different iterations of Gemstone from Simutronics.

I've played this one on and off for at least 10 years.

The Two Towers (http://www.angband.com/towers/).  There is leveling, but it's not too grindy, and the place is huge and has tons of quests.  Also, there has been considerable effort in keeping true to Tolkien's works, assuming you like that.

Heh, yeah. I remember "summon griefing" where a group would summon some unsuspecting victim into a room and then blind and silence them and hack them apart became rather common near its first end-of-life. Fortunately for me I never attracted the attention of such people.

Only MUD I really played was MajorMUD on some local bbs or other back in 88-89.  I also played around in Gemstone III briefly at some point.

Now you tug at the heart strings gang. Medevia and Battletech 3056 MUSE were my passion for many years. Actually I jumped across quite a few of the Btech MUSE iterations, loved em all.

I'm really disheartened by the lack of red named posting in this thread.

Mark Jacobs, I'm looking at you damnit, the people have spoken, and we want a groundzero arena in WAR!  I'm sure you can figure out how to work tanks and 'The Button' into the lore.  Oh, and airstikes, and napalm.  Thanks.

Medievia, blech. I was offered immortship on Medievia when it had a playerbase of four. The fact that they didn't know how to stop a basic dupe bug made me say no. Then i watched them become insanely popular.

The Susan Wu you always see in all the "VC funds MMOish thing" articles these days was on Arctic, that's how I met her.

EmlenMUDs! Never hugely popular, always broke to bits as the code got crazy, but some awesome innovative stuff! :)

I think I played (briefly) maybe 30% of the ones mentioned. Surprised nobody mentioned HoloMUD for a pure PvP experience.

Shades of Evil -- my brother was into this mud thing, and suddenly wound up with ownership of a fledging mud that crashed every 45-60 minutes.

Talk about baptism by fire--he knew I had a CS degree (I had not programmed in 7 years), and asked me "to help with the crashes". 3 years later ACK!Mud 4.3.1 came out, and I retired from mudding.

I tried several. I think I'm overly picky. These are ones I've played longer than an hour.

LegendMUD - Still keeps me interested after all these years.
Legends of War - Fun, mindless PK. Glad to see it's back.

Good times.  I remember how happy we were to get Mozart up times of several days.  And again when we pushed it to weeks and finally desired reboots.

MUD1
Avalon
LambdaMOO
MediaMOO

MUD1
LambdaMOO
Realms of Despair
Achaea
Dragonfire
TempusMUD (which I'm still on)

I'm surprised no one else has mention SojournMUD.  It's the basis of EQ and all of it's mechanics.  Brad basically copied almost everything from that game minus the lore.

I played Sojourn/Toril on and off for years. That along with SneezyMud were my favorites.

When EQ came out I was turned off by how much it was a complete rip off of Sojourn. Also, my imagination was way better than the EQ graphics!

Now after years of playing MMOs I can't go back to text based games. I tried to play Sojourn a couple weeks ago but I think I am just dumber than I used to be.

SneezyMUD!  That's the game I was trying to think about in my first post in this thread.  I loved that MUD.

I tried SojournMUD after Arctic closed down since that's where a lot of Arctic people went (different setting but still D&D) but I could never get into it. I remember leveling was really painful in the early goings (sounds oddly familiar) and I couldn't stick with it.

There was one pvp mud where you started out as a ghost in a room, waiting for a team.  I can't remember the name!  I used to play the lhell out of that game.  I'm not surprised people aren't mentioning a lot of good muds... there were, and still seem to be, SO many. 

Which muds arn't people mentioning that were "good"?

NannyMUD -the first mud I played
SumuMUD -the MUD I played the longest

Scepter of Goth!

Funny story. I didn't know that MUDs actually existed except for Scepter (played it in the mid-80's in the DC area). Some friend and I tried to license it so we could have our own Scepter world to control, but the business deal feel through; so we decided to write our own. We didn't even look around to see if there were others (and had never even heard the term "MUD"); we just assumed there weren't any, and a couple of years later we launched Tempest (later renamed Darkness Falls), which we had available in the DC area for a few years (dial-up: 1200/2400 baud) in the early 90's.

...which, Mr. Spielermacher is far too modest to mention, was the direct ancestor of DAOC.

No, really. It was freaky finding 10 year old comments in MMO server code.

I hear that--took us quite a long time to remove all the "If you see this, go smack Dave Moore" asserts from Torque.

There were a lot of smaller playerbase MUDs out there that were just plain awesome. I never played any of the big ones for long because they were either too impersonal, too grindy, or just didn't engage me. And then I started administering and coding (as I'm sure everyone has), and never really made it back to playing again.

Genocide was like that Signe, I'm sure alot of others were too.  Do you remember people saying nog alot?

nog was prevalent all over the MUD communities back then.  Forgot about it actually.

That was it!  It was a MudOS tester, too, when it switched over.  I think.  I have shit for memory.  Discworld, Nanvaent, Genocide and a few others is where I met most of my MudOS friends. 

Genocide was the one where different areas would randomly load every cycle, when it started you got dropped off in amain area and had to run around frantically grabbing shit to sell for heals and gear, then fight.  Winners got points, when you got 5,000 points you achieved regulator status, and got a dev char so that you could build your own area.

Big population made it much fun. Was very up and down in parts, but it had some great zones, a fun guild v guild system and fun CPK areas. For a while. Autoquests/MLRs/etc gradualy destroyed the fun and just polished the shit.

I played Achaea for a little while but aside from the politics system it was a bit bleh (and the politics system was a little bleh there too because of un-RP croneyism). Worst pvp system ever. Imperian was the same code but better politics, so I played for longer. (City and guild leadership stuff was fun and meaningful).

Probably played half the other mentioned here but I was never much taken unless they had a good population and political shenanigans so I didn't play much.

Because of this thread, I assume, someone edited my Wikipedia entry to mention that I played MUME.  :uhrr:

BSX Regenesis by Bram Stolk. The only graphical MUD on the internet 1991-1996 (well, unless you count crossfire and xpilot), and it was nonviolent too!! (because doing the graphics for fighting was too much work...) Bram also created Kobra - Star Wars, which already has been mentioned.  I believe Regenesis was hosted on the same computer as  NannyMUD on Lysator. And I'll tell you why I remember this. That's because the fucking morons nuked Regenesis whenever they felt Nanny needed more speed and memory...   :ye_gods: The name Regenesis is of course a tribute to Genesis the original LPmud. Cheers!

Act of War Memorable times on this MUD, as it was the first where I began to learn how to handle myself in an online world. It's where I created my dwarven warrior archetype, and still use it 10 years later. I played in the first iteration, when Nimbus and Warcry were the administrators.

I'm not the only one to call AoW!  :awesome_for_real: Not that I played anywhere near the beginning, I dont think...I played in Kael when I did. What kingdom were you, oh lurker?

Kael, then remade into a Balrog remort in Undermountain.

Is there a writeup on the web somewhere that explains how MUDs worked?

I don't mean technically, but from a user's point of view, things like:  you enter N/S/E/W to move, you enter a 'room', you read a description, etc.

I just can't picture how combat works with multiple players and mobs in a 'room' that isn't turn / positional based.

Look at the chat window for most MMOGs - that was what a MUD was.  It is positional based in that it's room based, with rooms being arbitrarily sized based only (or usually only) on the description.  It could be a closet or an entire field, but everybody could see/hear/attack everyone else in the room.  So if we're in the same room, you type "kill roac" or whatever, and we'd be at it.  After that, the numbers (or descriptions) of combat would flip by, with every round taking some predetermined amount of time, such as a second or so. 

Or you could just try one out to see what it's like.  Will take you five minutes. 
telnet towers.angband.com 9999
Make an account, skip the tutorial (say yes, you have played before) and e/n/s/w until you find something and attack. 

Simple mobs would attack the first player in the name list. ("look" to see what that was.)
Some muds had aggro control, apparently.  None of the ones I played did.   If the tank got in last, several muds had a "rescue" command that would "Pull" the rescued player 'behind' the tank.  You did this until you were at the first-in-room list.

  (Or if you were a tool, you did it out of combat because you wanted to be first on the room list.)

Any special skills had to be typed in.  'kick'  'trip' 'sweepingstrike'  They had timers and a countdown would show how long until you could do them again.

But yes, it was entirely like staring at the chat box in EQ/WoW/Whatever.  The upside was you learned to read (and type) fast, and fights tended to be a LOT shorter than even 'quick' fights in MMOs.

And that is why tintin++ was a godsend prior to folks embedding ANSI color codes in the text output - finding key words was a b!tch with hundreds of lines combat scrolling by. Color and triggers, all you needed to survive back in the MUD days!

I completely FORGOT about this game:

http://www.kaldana.com/index.php

Revelation

I'm playing this now at work.  Fun Fun Fun.

Wow, tintin++.  I forgot about that program.  Apparently there was a unix version before it simply called tintin, written in C vs C++ but I'm not quite that old school.

I played a little known mud named FredMUD, pure diku but modified, mostly in content.  It was also called HenryMud and JudyMud at different times, depending on where it was hosted (indstate.edu).  A professor there (who still teaches AFAIK) was the imp.

Battletech 3056 MUSE and most of the later Battletech MUSHes and MUXen
DuneMUSH
TinyTIM MUSH

Once you played on a codebase that allowed softcoding (MUSE/MUX/MUSH), you never went back to that Circle/LP/Diku garbage.

Clientwise, I still run TinyFugue.  Mainly to connect to IRC these days. 

Wow, you played muds with bad/plain vanilla Diku combat systems. :) Yes, of course there was aggro management on the better ones. One with decent mob AI would switch targets based on factors like damage done, targeting healers, etc. There were proximity systems, aggressiveness/defensiveness modifiers, and other stuff that games like EQ2 and WoW haven't done yet, too...

Well I tried one for 6 hours or so:  http://www.kaldana.com/  since it didn't have as much typing/reading as others...

Pretty much like the mainstream MMORPGs, except no graphics.   I never realized they were near-real-time client-shared-server type.    I doubt I'll play it much more, I miss looking to the distance, seeing a mountain / river / house and heading that way.  Also miss seeing a mob and avoiding it, instead of walking into a 'room' and being instantly 1-shot.

Try a few of the PVP muds before you give up on them alltogether, if it's still around, Ground Zero (as mentioned above) is wicked fun, has an almost non existant learning curve, and no /played benefit coded in, you're just as awesome as the guy who coded it, except he knows the commands better.

Genocide is also alot of fun, but the learning curve is a bit steeper, and it's stagnated over the past few years, it's mainly just the devs sitting around making racist jokes these days.

The Two Towers is also a great Tolkien MUD, heralded by most as the best of the best, drop by Tookland if you try it out, I hand a pretty big hand in coding that area, the baby killing was my idea.   :grin:

Also, I refuse to let this thread die.

Ancient Anguish was my one and only.  :heart:

I tried some other ones, but I kept going back to AA.