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Title: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: ForumBot 0.8 beta on May 14, 2007, 06:59:14 PM
The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online

The axe finally fell. It was only a matter of time, I suppose. And while many of you may try to spin this to make SOE look bad, apparently this wasn't really their doing. You see, SOE doesn't own Sigil. It doesn't own Sigil now and they won't own them tomorrow. But they do own Vanguard. What fate awaits that game? I don't know. Don't particularly care either.

But I do know that at approximately 4:30PM today, Sigil employees were told to meet outside. At which point they were terminated. On the spot. By whom? Doesn't seem to have been Brad McQuaid, if it was, nobody is talking. But that doesn't seem like something he'd do. But I suppose the executioner is irrelevant since most folks secretly want it to be SOE and it wasn't. As it stands, people were told to come back tomorrow to do their paperwork and some may get hired by SOE.

I contacted SOE since I'm not in the business of burning bridges or spinning news and they had this to say:

"...an announcement is forthcoming tomorrow."

Update: There's some debate over this being ALL employees or just some of them. Obviously, it's not ALL of them - after all, someone had to do the firing. Let's just say that - from what I've heard - they don't have enough employees left to update a casual game... like Snood.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Lantyssa on May 14, 2007, 07:38:07 PM
(http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/popcorn.gif)

I cannot wait until tomorrow.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Merusk on May 14, 2007, 08:10:37 PM
This thread (well, the article rather) has already been FOH'd.  'Ware.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Margalis on May 14, 2007, 08:14:51 PM
I cants hardly believes its!


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: schild on May 14, 2007, 08:16:50 PM
This thread (well, the article rather) has already been FOH'd.  'Ware.

Yea, by Cuppy Cake. Who I think is plugged into the internet like Neo.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Merusk on May 14, 2007, 08:23:22 PM
Said the man with 17k posts.  :-D


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Trippy on May 14, 2007, 09:14:15 PM
Who is Cuppycake?


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Cuppycake on May 14, 2007, 09:53:16 PM
Who is Cuppycake?


I have an RSS feed in my mind.... =/


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Drogo on May 14, 2007, 10:01:03 PM
Sucks for the employees at Sigil. I hope they all get hired somewhere soon.

On a side note, I wonder how long it will be before someone gives Brad a ton of cash to make another MMO? You know he will be back.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Cuppycake on May 14, 2007, 10:04:55 PM


On a side note, I wonder how long it will be before someone gives Brad a ton of cash to make another MMO? You know he will be back.

I don't see that happening for a long time....if ever.  Not a chance.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Nebu on May 14, 2007, 10:06:00 PM
On a side note, I wonder how long it will be before someone gives Brad a ton of cash to make another MMO? You know he will be back.

Let's see if any investors out there have ever heard of the term "box office poison".  

Looking back on an old thread, it looks like most of you saw this coming. (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=8995.0)  I do hope the best for all involved.  I'm sure a lot of long hours got poured into this disaster. 


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: schild on May 14, 2007, 10:17:14 PM
On a side note, I wonder how long it will be before someone gives Brad a ton of cash to make another MMO? You know he will be back.
I don't see that happening for a long time....if ever.  Not a chance.
Exhibit A: David Bowman
Exhibit B: Net Devil
Exhibit C: <This Space Reserved for Brad McQuaid>


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Kyper on May 14, 2007, 10:48:51 PM
I was never a Vanguard fan and I certainly saw them shooting themselves in the collective foot with some of their design decisions, but it really sucks that so many people are now out of work.  Hopefully they won't be unemployed for long.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: HRose on May 14, 2007, 10:49:07 PM
Exhibit B is Turbine.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Azazel on May 14, 2007, 10:55:36 PM
On one hand I feel bad for the people who suddenly lost their jobs, on the other hand pretty much anyone should have seen the writing on the wall, you know, several months ago, so I hope they were prepared, and if they weren't, it's kinda on their own heads.

I'd kind of like to blame them for creating that suckfest of a game, but then again it was Bradley's "vision" that drove the game into the toilet. Hopefully they and the rest of the industry will learn from the pile of suck that is Vanguard.



Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Engels on May 14, 2007, 11:26:26 PM
Dead beat CEO? (http://grouchygamer.blogspot.com/) I had a different picture of Brad, as a micro-managing boss, but considering how at sea the whole project seems to have been since launch, this depiction doesn't suprise me either.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Morfiend on May 14, 2007, 11:57:43 PM
Sucks for the employees of Sigil, but ummm... Vanguard.   :roll:


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: damijin on May 15, 2007, 12:13:45 AM
Wow, I figured they'd have significant cutbacks, but I didn't expect them to line up the remaining battered soldiers on the front lawn and execute them. That sucks, good luck to everyone with talent, the game wasn't *that bad*, may the future treat you better than the past.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Falconeer on May 15, 2007, 01:30:12 AM
That article is scary:

Quote
but I have been able to confirm that Brad hasn't even bothered to be at the office.

Since last year.

Reliable sources confirmed to me that Brad hasn't been at the Sigil offices save a couple of brief visits since December of last year.

What if he's already working on something else?!


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Ironwood on May 15, 2007, 01:51:36 AM
Why, you getting ready to rave about it for 15 minutes ?


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Falconeer on May 15, 2007, 02:17:24 AM
Actually, I hope he's already working on a new project. The drama/comedy material he provides is unmatched. But my entertainment makes me feel guilty for his employees (who, by the way, should know better).


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Ironwood on May 15, 2007, 02:24:20 AM
Speaking as a hard working father with a wife and five appetites to feed, I find nothing funny about this at all.

It's shite of the highest calibre.

I used to think I'd like a job in the gaming industry.  I think now I'd sooner take a job as a fluffer in the gay porn industry for all the stability that gaming seems to offer.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Falconeer on May 15, 2007, 02:44:25 AM
Speaking as a hard working father and appetites to feed (not five) myself, I think, by assuming the above linked grouchy's article says the truth, Brad probably doesn't have any. Or he has other means to pay for food.
As I said, to this point his tales are entertaining. Those of his employees aren't, hence the guilt.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Ironwood on May 15, 2007, 02:49:50 AM
You misunderstand, I think.

I don't give a flying fuck about Brad.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Wolf on May 15, 2007, 03:15:16 AM
I don't think he is, either. He has a point that the drama bombs this guy seems to produce can be entertaining... untill you find out that he didn't bother to show up at the office when he saw where things were heading. Instead he stayed at home, posted on FoH and played a miniature game with super heroes (??!). Head in the sand sort of shit. He won't be getting any more work, if this thing gets _some_ publicity.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Ironwood on May 15, 2007, 03:18:21 AM
And, of course, if it's true.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Simond on May 15, 2007, 03:54:34 AM
Anyone at Sigil didn't see something like this coming is too stupid to be allowed to breed, anyway.

Hey, I wonder if this means the paid shills on FoH, MMORPG.com et al. have been fired as well?

Edit: Actually, this is an industry first by Sigil - they're a MMOG studio so bad that even SOE doesn't want to take them on.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Merusk on May 15, 2007, 04:10:49 AM
Anyone at Sigil didn't see something like this coming is too stupid to be allowed to breed, anyway.


It's very easy to say this, until you find yourself in that position.  1) We humans are able to lie our fucking pants off to ourselves about bad situations. 2) You don't know how much whitewash was or wasn't being passed around the office about the game's status and financial viability.   3)  Combine 1 & 2 and you're willing to listen to some sweet, sweet lies at times.    4) Games aren't exactly always-hiring, and it's a very small segment of jobs that's very competitive. Folks may have been looking for a while without finding things, and now they're boned.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Bunk on May 15, 2007, 06:10:34 AM
Having been through the experience of "Oh, by the way, we are having a department wide meeting at the end of the day. Oh, and the human resources director will be joining us." I do feel for them.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Sky on May 15, 2007, 06:54:24 AM
(http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/popcorn.gif)

I cannot wait until tomorrow.
Well I'm standing here freezing, inside your golden garden
Got my ladder leaned up against your wall
Tonight's the night we planned to run away together
Come on Dolly Mae, theres no time to stall
But now youre telling me...

I think we better wait till tomorrow...


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: schild on May 15, 2007, 07:12:21 AM
Actually, I hope he's already working on a new project.

Are you from Mars?


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Ubiq on May 15, 2007, 07:37:24 AM
Wow, I figured they'd have significant cutbacks, but I didn't expect them to line up the remaining battered soldiers on the front lawn and execute them. That sucks, good luck to everyone with talent, the game wasn't *that bad*, may the future treat you better than the past.
I don't know for sure, but what's going on sounds like some clever maneuvering which allows SOE to acquire the game and the people without acquiring the company Sigil itself, which is crucial if Sigil has managed to acquire a substantial amount of debt.  General gist is:

1) Company A acquires all rights and code to Company B's project.
2) Company B lays off almost entire staff due to inability to pay salaries.
3) Company A says "Hey!  What do you know!  Available people with specific knowledge and talent about this codebase we just bought!"  Hires many of them.
4) Company C, who loaned company B a bunch of money, never sees it again.

Again, I don't know if this is what is happening here for sure, but it's a fairly common gambit in the industry, and I would not be surprised if a significant part of the newly unemployed Vanguard team happened to get job offers in the very immediate future.  Brad's a good guy, and I'd be very surprised if he didn't find a way to be sure that most of his team was taken care of when negotiating the deal.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: LK on May 15, 2007, 07:48:38 AM
(http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/popcorn.gif)

I cannot wait until tomorrow.
Well I'm standing here freezing, inside your golden garden
Got my ladder leaned up against your wall
Tonight's the night we planned to run away together
Come on Dolly Mae, theres no time to stall
But now youre telling me...

I think we better wait till tomorrow...

Well I think it's kinda funny, (for all the hype)
Well I think it's kinda sad, (for all the employees)
that the dreams of Sigil dying are the best I ever had... (for the industry)
I find it hard to tell you, (if Brad's working on another game)
Well I find it hard to take, (if Brad is)
When Brad starts running PR circles it's a very very...

Mad World.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: schild on May 15, 2007, 07:54:08 AM
Stop with the (unfunny) lyrics, you tools.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: LK on May 15, 2007, 07:57:03 AM
Ok.  In all seriousness, I feel really bad for the employees at Sigil and hope they land on their feet.  I'm really interested in seeing what McQuaid does next, because if it's anything more than "nothing", then people are not doing the homework on the man.  I'm really, really glad I turned down the chance to meet him in person at E3 2005.  It'll be easier to forget him now.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Simond on May 15, 2007, 08:01:00 AM
I hope the decent (in both the capability and moral senses of the word) people do ok, and I hope that Brad McQuaid and his cronies take a long walk off a short pier.

Assuming they can even find Brad, of course.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Signe on May 15, 2007, 08:11:03 AM
Jobs, like Brad McQuaid, are overrated.  I seem to get along fine without either.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Ironwood on May 15, 2007, 08:14:47 AM
Most parasites do.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Signe on May 15, 2007, 08:17:05 AM
Gee, that was kind of mean.  I work hard for my husband's money, you know.   :|


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: HaemishM on May 15, 2007, 08:56:56 AM
So McQuaid didn't even bother showing up when they shitcanned all the employees?

Yep, I was right. Raging Douchebag of Day #3 he certainly is. I feel bad for Sigil, worse knowing that McQuaid probably has a pretty decent parachute of money from SOE to just go the fuck away. If anyone ever gives him money to so much as turn on a computer again, they deserve to have their entire fortune stolen by angry yard gnomes hopped up on bathtub crank and Viagra.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Morat20 on May 15, 2007, 09:20:19 AM
Wow, I figured they'd have significant cutbacks, but I didn't expect them to line up the remaining battered soldiers on the front lawn and execute them. That sucks, good luck to everyone with talent, the game wasn't *that bad*, may the future treat you better than the past.
I don't know for sure, but what's going on sounds like some clever maneuvering which allows SOE to acquire the game and the people without acquiring the company Sigil itself, which is crucial if Sigil has managed to acquire a substantial amount of debt.  General gist is:

1) Company A acquires all rights and code to Company B's project.
2) Company B lays off almost entire staff due to inability to pay salaries.
3) Company A says "Hey!  What do you know!  Available people with specific knowledge and talent about this codebase we just bought!"  Hires many of them.
4) Company C, who loaned company B a bunch of money, never sees it again.

Again, I don't know if this is what is happening here for sure, but it's a fairly common gambit in the industry, and I would not be surprised if a significant part of the newly unemployed Vanguard team happened to get job offers in the very immediate future.  Brad's a good guy, and I'd be very surprised if he didn't find a way to be sure that most of his team was taken care of when negotiating the deal.
That wouldn't surprise me -- however, I expect if that's the case that SOE hires less than half the team back, if that. They'll only need people with certain specific skillsets (people with in-depth knowledge of the engine, a few of the DBAs, etc) -- most of the people are replaceable. (If for no other reason than SOE is undoubtably going to take the game in a totally different direction).


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: LK on May 15, 2007, 09:23:01 AM
1) Company A acquires all rights and code to Company B's project.
2) Company B lays off almost entire staff due to inability to pay salaries.
3) Company A says "Hey!  What do you know!  Available people with specific knowledge and talent about this codebase we just bought!"  Hires many of them.
4) Company C, who loaned company B a bunch of money, never sees it again.

Curious.  Who's Company C in this case? Microsoft, or SOE? I thought Microsoft had already written off Sigil as a loss, but SOE was the one who funneled additional money to get the game shipped.

I mean if SOE was Company C in this case, then maybe Smedley wanted to destroy McQuaid's creation, or at the very least destroy the Sigil name since it's got a bad taste in most gamer's mouths.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Alluvian on May 15, 2007, 09:47:09 AM
I have to say this was quicker than I was expecting from the perspective of someone who has been trying to pretend Sigil did not exist.  I am half curious what the Vanguard boards look like these days.  Luckily the other half is keeping me well away from them.  Any brave souls able to report in?  Is it all mindless SOE hate?  Fanboys talking about how this AWESOME game will now die and how it will be the greatest tragedy of our days?  Haters saying good riddance, I was quitting anyway?  All of the above?

I could never work in the industry myself.  The total and complete lack of job security would never let me sleep.  When it comes to my job I really like going to bed each night without the thought of being fired in the morning.

I feel really bad for them, but it seems to come with the job description.

Final note, I really want verification of where the hell Brad was.  This was his baby, those lost jobs are on his head.  He should have been there to apologize in person.  Hell, he sell his money hat and help out their families until they find their footing again.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Ubiq on May 15, 2007, 09:52:29 AM
Quote
That wouldn't surprise me -- however, I expect if that's the case that SOE hires less than half the team back, if that. They'll only need people with certain specific skillsets (people with in-depth knowledge of the engine, a few of the DBAs, etc) -- most of the people are replaceable. (If for no other reason than SOE is undoubtably going to take the game in a totally different direction).
You never know.  When something similar happened to me, the company doing the buying picked up nearly all of the people working on the purchased project.  The people working on other projects were SOL.

Two other things factor into it:
1) Hiring people into San Diego is kind of a pain (people don't like to move to a one-studio town, due to the instability of the industry).  So Sony is probably seeing this as a primary opportunity to fill other slots on other teams.
2) Many of these people have worked with SOE in the past and may have history with it, for good or ill.  Sony may not want to hire some of them, and some key people may not want to go back.

Again, this is all speculation.  Every situation in the industry is somewhat unique.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Ubiq on May 15, 2007, 09:56:36 AM
Curious.  Who's Company C in this case? Microsoft, or SOE? I thought Microsoft had already written off Sigil as a loss, but SOE was the one who funneled additional money to get the game shipped.

I mean if SOE was Company C in this case, then maybe Smedley wanted to destroy McQuaid's creation, or at the very least destroy the Sigil name since it's got a bad taste in most gamer's mouths.
Company A is SOE.  Company C is whoever funded the initial development of the game.  Maybe Microsoft, maybe a venture capitalist, I've no idea.  I think Brad said the price tag of the game was $30M - there's no way picking up the game makes sense for Sony unless they manage to make that debt a non-factor.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Engels on May 15, 2007, 10:04:25 AM
Interview from Ten Ton Hammer with Alan Crosby of SoE (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/7846). Lots of fluff, but a small bit of VG's future.

Quote
The Future of Vanguard

While Crosby was unable to enlighten us as to how SOE will become more involved with Vanguard, he did offer reassurances.

“Vanguard isn’t going anywhere,” he said. “The game will go on. And there will be no NGE, or NVGE, or whatever. Vanguard will still be Vanguard, only, we hope, better.”

The next few weeks should prove to be interesting as news of SOE’s increased involvement with Vanguard becomes official. In uncertain times, one thing seems clear: Alan Crosby is a voice of reason and knowledge when it comes to community matters.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Furiously on May 15, 2007, 10:26:23 AM
Oh man - they are going to NGE the game.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Tmon on May 15, 2007, 10:44:04 AM
Oh man - they are going to NGE the game.

Who would notice if they did?


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Hutch on May 15, 2007, 10:49:32 AM
Oh man - they are going to NGE the game.

Who would notice if they did?
That's gonna leave a mark.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Morat20 on May 15, 2007, 10:50:53 AM
Oh man - they are going to NGE the game.
See, Vanguard needs an NGE -- it's a triple-A game pulling 40k subs. SWG was a triple-A game pulling 200k subs, and didn't need it. (And, of course, Vanguard is four months old and SWG was 3 years old and had just had a massive revamp).

Situation is hugely different.

On a tangent -- I've noted a lot of people treating the word "investment" like it was "loan". Maybe the games industry does it a bit different, but I was under the impression that people sunk capital into Dev houses in return for something specific -- percentage of box sales, etc. I don't think there are any creditors looking for their 30+ million out of Vanguard -- Vanguard's only real debts are probably operational and license based.

Still, selling the game to SOE and then bankrupting Sigil means investors probably can't come looking for a cut of any new Vanguard sales or sub fees, since any agreements they had to that effect were with now-bankrupt Sigil.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Abelian75 on May 15, 2007, 11:00:06 AM
Well, I sure picked the wrong time to be sending out resumes.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Simond on May 15, 2007, 11:04:24 AM
My only gaming-related concern is that SOE will take Gallenite off of EQ2 and tell him to fix Vanguard.
Seriously, Smedley, if you're reading this: Give any & all remaining VG subscribers an EQ2 account with a couple of months free play on it, then shut down Vanguard. Some things are just past saving.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Furiously on May 15, 2007, 11:05:53 AM
Well, I sure picked the wrong time to be sending out resumes.

It's ok - I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Ubiq on May 15, 2007, 11:23:11 AM
On a tangent -- I've noted a lot of people treating the word "investment" like it was "loan". Maybe the games industry does it a bit different, but I was under the impression that people sunk capital into Dev houses in return for something specific -- percentage of box sales, etc. I don't think there are any creditors looking for their 30+ million out of Vanguard -- Vanguard's only real debts are probably operational and license based.
This varies from deal to deal, but most deals involving a game publisher are, for all practical purposes, loans.  If it cost the publisher $5M to fund the game, the first $5M of revenue that aren't taken by operational costs go back to the publisher.  The developer doesn't typically see any money until the publisher is paid back in full.  Once that happens, THEN the publisher and the developer split the profits beyond that.

MMOs are a little different, only in that a little more cash is freed up to support the game (you can't keep the game going without a live team).  Even then, there are typically constraints on how big your live team can be.  If a company doesn't have another funded project lined up immediately, there's no revenue to support extraneous people and they are let go.

If it sounds like it's broken, and the publishers have all the power, well, that's exactly right.  It's the golden rule (he who has the gold makes the rules), and yes, it does result in some games going off vision due to inane publisher demands.  The only chance a developer has to break free from the cycle of dependency is to have a megahit, so they can fund their own games.  Many other developers are trying harder to acquire secondary funding (via VCs and whatnot) - VC funding is better because they tend to invest in a company rather than a game, and are invested in seeing the value of the organization rise.  Unfortunately, most VCs see games as too small and/or too risky to put bank into. 


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: tazelbain on May 15, 2007, 11:24:19 AM
Well, I sure picked the wrong time to be sending out resumes.

It's ok - I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.
Get with the times, grandpa, people sniff fermented sewage these days.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Soulslinger on May 15, 2007, 11:24:37 AM
I have been told that Brad checked out long before the annoucement was made. He has a nack of exiting quietly once corporate pressure starts to build. It happened at Verant after the SOE acquisition and it has apparently happened at Sigil. After watching Verant die at the hands of Sony Pictures, I'm sure Brad saw what was on the horizon. But who can blame him? The transition from a small dev shop to the monster SOE became is ugly and painful for all involved, save maybe Yair or Jeff Blake.

I hate the term "The Vision" because it's just not that simple. At SOE, Brad's opinions and artistic integrity were bought out. Thus, he had zero leverage and he hated it. I would have too. And climbing into bed with Micro$oft was just a bad idea from the get-go. They will fuck you in the drive-thru every chance they get. So he has some nice ideas but I doubt he will ever find the chemistry to make another EQ. And regardless of what anyone says, every dev wants a cashcow release. Maybe it's just not time to make another MMO. And maybe I'm wrong. 

But my guess is Brad's conscience eats at him a little and he will always try to snuff it, especially when he drives up the manicured driveway to his multi-million dollar home in his 360 Modena.

To all those guys and girls at Sigil... Sorry folks. It really, REALLY sucks to go out that way. Hopefully you got your name on a box or in a manual and you can use it to leg-up somewhere else. And to all those who left SOE to join Sigil... and trashed talked the whole time: Irony is a muthafucka, ain't it?  :evil:

-SS


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: NxJoeW on May 15, 2007, 11:44:11 AM
There were some seriously passionate and talented people on that staff.

Should they not be taken up by SOE, I am sure many of them will have some success if they look toward their old friends.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Lum on May 15, 2007, 12:02:47 PM
Yep. There's plenty of projects going on. If nothing else, if anyone from Sigil is reading this and feeling unsure about their future, drop me a line and I may be able to connect you to some folks. sjennings-at-brokentoys.org

The gaming industry's a lot like the Mafia. Once you're in, it's hard to leave.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Morat20 on May 15, 2007, 12:10:31 PM
Yep. There's plenty of projects going on. If nothing else, if anyone from Sigil is reading this and feeling unsure about their future, drop me a line and I may be able to connect you to some folks. sjennings-at-brokentoys.org

The gaming industry's a lot like the Mafia. Once you're in, it's hard to leave.
Well, if you leave out the man-man kissing and the occasional horse's head, you've convinced me. Where do I sign up for my money-hat? :)


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Nija on May 15, 2007, 12:17:35 PM
Brad should take Raph's old job at SOE.

On with the promotions! To obscurity and beyond!


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Ixxit on May 15, 2007, 12:34:20 PM
Gamespot interview with Mr. Smedley (linked from Silky Venom) has some more details.

Looks like Sony picked up both Sigil and Vanguard.  Over half of the VG staff was maintained:


http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?s=3e4fe456970a39a1d2679313022c65fe&t=21056


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: schild on May 15, 2007, 12:36:55 PM
Hm.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: schild on May 15, 2007, 12:59:33 PM
Quote
May 15, 2007 San Diego, CA – Sony Online Entertainment LLC (SOE), a global leader in the online games industry, today announced that it has completed a transaction to purchase key assets of Sigil Games Online, Inc. Through the deal, SOE now owns Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Sigil’s tentpole property, a highly-successful massively multiplayer online game. The Sigil acquisition also builds on SOE’s successful strategy of cultivating game development studios around the world to further boost the company’s capabilities. The announcement was made by John Smedley, President, Sony Online Entertainment. 
As part of the acquisition, a majority of the Sigil team will join SOE, integrating into SOE’s worldwide group of studios which includes offices in San Diego, Seattle, Austin, Denver, Los Angeles and Taiwan.  The acquisition will strengthen SOE’s position as a leader in the online gaming space by expanding the company’s portfolio of gaming offerings.
 “With an unparalleled team and exceptional product, Sigil has been a creative force in the online games space. We look forward to continuing the vision for Vanguard and to continue to deliver some groundbreaking game play,” said Smedley.
In May 2006, SOE acquired the title’s rights and the two companies agreed to co-publish Vanguard.   The MMO launched in late January of this year and has sold nearly 200,000 retail and digital units worldwide.  Sigil CEO and Vanguard creator, Brad McQuaid will become a consultant with SOE as Vanguard Creative Advisor.
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes takes place in the fantasy setting of Telon, a vast and ancient world of magic, intrigue and adventure where thousands of players from around the world have formed a steadfast community exploring the grandeur of a world crafted by the seminal fantasy artist Keith Parkinson.  The game introduced many groundbreaking new features and an art direction second to none.

Too much to bold. So only bolded one thing.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: tazelbain on May 15, 2007, 01:04:47 PM
> Vanguard Creative Advisor
Double points if he wears a baret, dresses in all black, and speaks in rhyme.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Ixxit on May 15, 2007, 01:06:37 PM
Buried elsewhere at Silky Venom (not sure where it was originally posted):

Quote
Hello Everyone,

Today I would like to formally announce that SOE has acquired the assets of Sigil Games Online, including Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. As a part of this acquisition, we are bringing on approx 50 people from Sigil in order to insure that Vanguard continues to grow. SOE is dedicated to making sure that Vanguard is well taken care of and that we provide the same level of service we do for our other titles. In the near future we will come out with a publishing plan that will largely be driven by the strong player community that Vanguard has already built up. We plan on supporting Vanguard for many years to come, and you can expect many content updates as part of your subscription. Down the line we will of course be coming out with new expansion packs, but right now the focus is on making sure Vanguard is running the way it should be.

We are also officially opening up forums. In the past, our deal with Sigil didn't allow for this, but as with our other games we fill this is an important part of communicating with the playerbase. You can expect a strong presence from our community team as well as the development team members. While we realize that Sigil had said they wouldn't open up general forums, at SOE we fill this hampers our efforts to communicate effectively with the players. We will continue to support the fansites in a big way, and will be contacting many of them directly to discuss what this change means. By no means do we want to lose the strong fansite support by making this change, but we do think it's important to have a forum for players to communicate directly with SOE.

A few other items I wanted to mention

1. Brad McQuaid will be consultant to SOE as a creative advisor for Vanguard. Dave Gilbertson will be the person directly responsible for the day-to-day management of both the Sigil Carlsbad office as well as Vanguard.

2. We do not plan on making any major changes to Vanguard. Any changes are going to come from the team itself. We aren't mandating any big changes to the game. We've learned a thing or two with our experiences with the NGE and don't plan on repeating mistakes from the past and not listening to the players.

3. We do plan on spending a lot of time cleaning up legacy issues with Vanguard and making sure the game's performance improves.

By way of comparison, this team is approx. the same size as the EQ2 team and I feel like that team has done an amazing job improving EQ2 since it's launch. We intend to do the same thing for Vanguard and it is our hope that the players feel like we're doing right by them.

Smed

Most interesting that the team will be the same size as the EQ II team. 


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Lantyssa on May 15, 2007, 01:24:11 PM
About 50 people out of how many?


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Ixxit on May 15, 2007, 01:28:34 PM
About 50 people out of how many?

He said  the 50  was over half of the Vanguard team.  So 75-80, 90 maybe?


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: damijin on May 15, 2007, 01:41:41 PM
Today was significantly less fun than it should have been (maybe because I didn't hit up any Vanguard forums to see the sky falling).

But I place the blame solely on Smed's overpowered crowd control spells. Nerf him!


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: schild on May 15, 2007, 01:44:56 PM
Oh, trust me, I want to do more than nerf him.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Engels on May 15, 2007, 01:48:47 PM
I'm relieved. It was the only possible, yet possibly acceptable outcome, short of shutting VG down altogether.

I'm personally interested in the rather cryptic mention by Smed about 'Vanguard's legacy issues', whatever that means. He makes it sound like Vanguard has problems working with ISA 56k modems. Or are people now refering to 2nd gen machines as 'legacy'?


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Soulslinger on May 15, 2007, 01:56:36 PM
Sigil's Carlsbad office had 108 employees, assuming that includes reception and general office staff. Keeping 50 is not that bad considering the alternative.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Nebu on May 15, 2007, 02:00:45 PM
Sigil's Carlsbad office had 108 employees, assuming that includes reception and general office staff. Keeping 50 is not that bad considering the alternative.

It's bad for the 58 that they didn't keep.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Soulslinger on May 15, 2007, 02:13:08 PM
Point taken.

The industry is incestuous and I'm sure they will find work elsewhere. For those industry folks fresh out of work, here's a great place to start: http://www.gamedevmap.com (http://www.gamedevmap.com)


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Morat20 on May 15, 2007, 02:13:20 PM
Oh, trust me, I want to do more than nerf him.
I didn't think he was your type....


(Sorry -- couldn't resist).


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Mechastump on May 15, 2007, 03:18:32 PM
The Smed statements are vague and seem to dance around whether it was a full company aquisition or just selected assets, though the Gamespot interview clearly suggests it was the former.  Assuming Sigil have not managed to cannily write off the dev costs along the way, SOE has presumably just aquired a hefty chunk of the purported $30M development cost along with the company.  I'd expected them to pick it up cheaply minus the debt and either develop it or blackhole it a la MxO on the Station Pass.  But if the aquisition wasn't that cheap (total speculation), and they're throwing a 50 man live team at it and yaddering about expansions, they clearly think there's a sizeable market for the style of gameplay (which felt a lot like Everquest redux to me) - one that will produce a better return than just parking it MxO style, or gutting gameplay and starting over with an NGE (at the risk of losing the current subscriber base).  Of course if they have managed to pick it up cheaply, it begs the question of just who the hell has taken the hit for the development cost.  There's a $30M elephant wandering about in the room looking lost and i'm curious as to who owns it.

Given they have two major licenses quietly dying in a corner (well, being noisily butchered in the case of SWG), and that one of those was an aquisition in it's own right, I have to wonder just what the hell they see in Vanguard that makes them want to not only pick it up, but actively run with it.  Makes you wonder just how low their break even points are in whatever business model this is.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: SnakeCharmer on May 15, 2007, 03:18:55 PM
So, let me see if I understand something:

The same people that coded said piece of shit (and were subsequently chastized for here and everywhere else) are getting 'well wishes' and 'feel sorry fors'?  I understand the Bradhate, no question.

Everyone wants to blame management (i.e. Brad), but are giving a free pass to those that did the crap coding.

Doesn't make much sense to me.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Mike_Lescault on May 15, 2007, 03:22:08 PM
On a positive note, I'm sure most of those folks will have luck finding a home, given the number of MMOs currently in development.

To me, the downside is that people will cite this situation as proof that there isn't a market for harder core MMOs that aim somewhere north of the lowest common denominator, when I suspect the reasons the game wasn't more successful has less to do with the design philosophy then with other factors.



Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: d4rkj3di on May 15, 2007, 03:46:13 PM
So, let me see if I understand something:

The same people that coded said piece of shit (and were subsequently chastized for here and everywhere else) are getting 'well wishes' and 'feel sorry fors'?  I understand the Bradhate, no question.

Everyone wants to blame management (i.e. Brad), but are giving a free pass to those that did the crap coding.

Doesn't make much sense to me.

I'd say that a good number of the "without jobs" folks didn't have much to do with code. These are sound and art people. Stuff that doesn't need to be worked over hard to make the game properly function. In the largest example of irony this week, the ones that still have jobs are the ones that coded said piece of shit.

The really competent ones have been snatched to work on the seekrit squirrel MMO. My 'well wishes' and 'feel sorry fors' are directed to the people that I know for a fact are good at what they do, and out of work. 


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Cheddar on May 15, 2007, 04:00:21 PM
Quote
JS: I don't think there's anything cynical about what we do. We go where the talent is. It's that simple. Many of the people working at Sigil used to work at SOE, and they left to chase the dream of working on a new fantasy MMO of their own creation. We're bringing those people back into the fold and we're excited to do so.

/snicker


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Tcharels on May 15, 2007, 04:01:10 PM
Ubig got most of the main points across already. Deals vary from project to project, but this is typically how deals are structured, MMO or otherwise:

1. Company A(C:A) (Sigil) approches Company B (C:B) with game proposal (MS)
2. C:B signs title, sets up payment schedule for C:A based on milestone deliverables over the course of the project. Failure on any one of those milestones is grounds for non-payment of milestone or cancellation of the project, depending on circumstances and prior precedent.
3. C:B decides to cancel or otherwise terminate the project. At this point, if the game is never signed, C:A doesn't owe C:B a cent, C:B writes it off as a loss, and everyone moves on to the next big thing. Any future work on the project, or investment though, means C:B has to signoff and get payment of some sort.
4. C:A signs with C:C (Sony) instead, possibly with other outside investments.
5. C:A and C:C ship the project.

Now this is where it gets tricky. If the project never pulls in any profit (i.e. never makes more per month than operational costs), C:B never sees a cent. Otherwise, under most terms, C:B will continue to get a cut of ALL future profits until such a time as C:B's full investment is repaid in full.

This is not necessarily how the agreement was setup, but in all likelihood, it is pretty close. No company will write off a $35 million investment on a project that is going to continue development. They also are unlikely to sell that debt for pennies on the dollar for a short term capital recovery. If no money is ever made, they're not much worse off than before. If money is made, chances are, it will be much more than any short term capital recovery effort would have been.

This is an interesting thread, not just the initial post, but all the follow ups. I was very close to this project, and this is one of the few threads that is pretty rational and dispassionate in it's discourse.

It is very unfortunate that so many people will lose their jobs from this, and that their plan moving forward will, in my opinion, do nothing to help the future of the project. But, no one enters the games industry for it's stability. That would be delusional.

Cheers.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Fakaro on May 15, 2007, 04:37:11 PM
stuff

BTW.. I edited this post out of respect for my friend's husband who is trying to find work.




Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Engels on May 15, 2007, 04:43:48 PM
Now we're cookin!


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Venkman on May 15, 2007, 04:44:09 PM
Exhibit B is Turbine.
Err, actually, AC1 did ok and LoTRO is doing well. And the latter launched playable and good (wasn't there for AC1 launch).

To me, the downside is that people will cite this situation as proof that there isn't a market for harder core MMOs that aim somewhere north of the lowest common denominator, when I suspect the reasons the game wasn't more successful has less to do with the design philosophy then with other factors.
This is different from the NGE "virtual worlds don't sell" though. There was no real market expectation for a generic-IP fantasy-based MMO. The "built by inventor of EQ" started waning when their peak record was almost broken by WoW's first open beta. Getting dumped by Microsoft hurt. Brad constantly justifying the raft of exposed problems felt far too defensive for a product he had faith in. And VG launching in the same six month period as either WoW: BC or LoTRO was going to result in predictably low turnout anyway.

As such, VG really only proves that launching early a game that was entirely too long in development for what it actually turned out to be is A Bad Thing(tm).


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Trippy on May 15, 2007, 04:55:10 PM
Brad should take Raph's old job at SOE.
Which was actually the position (Chief Creative Officer) Brad vacated when he left to form Sigil.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on May 15, 2007, 07:20:16 PM
(posted in the active MMOG discussions thread instead)


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Mike_Lescault on May 15, 2007, 07:35:25 PM
VG really only proves that launching early a game that was entirely too long in development for what it actually turned out to be is A Bad Thing(tm).

All in all, it's really too bad for the folks who were really looking forward to that type of game.

Sort of like having your hometown hero show up to the Olympic Swim finals drunk and wearing water wings. You'd really love to see him win, but in the end you find yourself just hoping no one gets hurt.



Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Margalis on May 15, 2007, 10:24:57 PM
Nobody was looking forward to it. That was part of the problem.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Litigator on May 15, 2007, 10:59:19 PM
Wow, I figured they'd have significant cutbacks, but I didn't expect them to line up the remaining battered soldiers on the front lawn and execute them. That sucks, good luck to everyone with talent, the game wasn't *that bad*, may the future treat you better than the past.
I don't know for sure, but what's going on sounds like some clever maneuvering which allows SOE to acquire the game and the people without acquiring the company Sigil itself, which is crucial if Sigil has managed to acquire a substantial amount of debt.  General gist is:

1) Company A acquires all rights and code to Company B's project.
2) Company B lays off almost entire staff due to inability to pay salaries.
3) Company A says "Hey!  What do you know!  Available people with specific knowledge and talent about this codebase we just bought!"  Hires many of them.
4) Company C, who loaned company B a bunch of money, never sees it again.

Again, I don't know if this is what is happening here for sure, but it's a fairly common gambit in the industry, and I would not be surprised if a significant part of the newly unemployed Vanguard team happened to get job offers in the very immediate future.  Brad's a good guy, and I'd be very surprised if he didn't find a way to be sure that most of his team was taken care of when negotiating the deal.

Well, first of all, I expect that the selling and the firing are both being done for the same reason; Sigil is broke.

And, on Sony's part, it's not really maneuvering, so much as common sense.  There is no reason for Sony to have to buy the company to get the asset. They don't want Sigil's management. They don't want Sigil's offices. They don't want Sigil's. They don't want assignment of Sigil's contracts or other agreements. They don't want other IP Sigil may own. All the infrastructure that runs an MMO is already something SOE would have.

Sigil sounds as though it is a thoroughly failed business. Since Vanguard was both very expensive and very unsuccessful, Sigil's liabilities, by this point, must be significantly greater than its assets, because Vanguard isn't worth what the company borrowed to make it. There is no reason that Sony would ever want to buy the company and pay off Sigil's creditors, and if Sony were somehow required to buy the whole floundering company to get Vanguard, than any remaining value that Vanguard has would be totally wasted, assuming Sigil is worth less than Sigil owes. That's not good for Sigil's employees or creditors, because whatever cash Sigil can get for hocking Vanguard will go to paying off its obligations.

And no, of course they don't want Sigil's debt, and they don't want to be responsible for firing the employees or paying them severence. Sony wants a ready-made MMO for a fraction of its development cost and run it on a shoestring for a profit.  And yeah, Sony may be scavenging the corpse of this company, but in the end, they'll help the creditors recoup some of their money, employ some of the employees, and keep the game on for anyone still interested in playing it.

Edit: It looks like Sony is buying the company and I am talking out of my ass.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Trippy on May 16, 2007, 02:29:41 AM
Edit: It looks like Sony is buying the company and I am talking out of my ass.
No they aren't. Acquiring "key assets" is not the same as acquiring a company. Lots and lots of sites have their headlines wrong.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Faust on May 16, 2007, 09:04:57 AM
To me, the downside is that people will cite this situation as proof that there isn't a market for harder core MMOs that aim somewhere north of the lowest common denominator.

Shadowbane was proof that there isn't a market for PvP.
Oh, and Earth & Beyond was proof that nobody likes space games.
etc.

It's clear!  All things must be World of Warcraft.

 


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Litigator on May 16, 2007, 09:07:23 AM
Now this is where it gets tricky. If the project never pulls in any profit (i.e. never makes more per month than operational costs), C:B never sees a cent. Otherwise, under most terms, C:B will continue to get a cut of ALL future profits until such a time as C:B's full investment is repaid in full.

This is not necessarily how the agreement was setup, but in all likelihood, it is pretty close. No company will write off a $35 million investment on a project that is going to continue development. They also are unlikely to sell that debt for pennies on the dollar for a short term capital recovery. If no money is ever made, they're not much worse off than before. If money is made, chances are, it will be much more than any short term capital recovery effort would have been.

This is an interesting thread, not just the initial post, but all the follow ups. I was very close to this project, and this is one of the few threads that is pretty rational and dispassionate in it's discourse.


Well, either the B would be part owner of the IP, or it would have a deal with A over the revenue. If B owns a piece of the game, then C would have to buy out both A and B.  If B just has a payment deal with A, then C can probably buy the game without stepping into a deal with B.  Either way, if A shuts down the company, with an MMO that has to be kept online, that's a total loss for B. B would rather recoup some of its investment than none of its investment.  B is not going to be able to force any company C to step into the shoes of Company A by buying it and taking over its obligations.  My guess is that a scenario where A might sell the game would be covered in the original agreement with B, and B would get compensated out of whatever C pays A for the game.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: trias_e on May 16, 2007, 09:11:26 AM
Quote
Nobody was looking forward to it. That was part of the problem.

It did get 200k box sales out of the gate.  So I think it's fair to say that some people were looking forward to it.

And the thing is, word of mouth is a real big deal.  Look at the massive snowball effect in WoW (it's box sales in the first few months are just a small portion of it's overall sales)  Many people wait to hear about the game from friends or forums before purchasing.  So the 200k doesn't even represent the potential playerbase the game could have had.

If the game had been a well-executed polished version of what it was going for, it could have probably been a 400k sub game.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Litigator on May 16, 2007, 09:45:41 AM
On a positive note, I'm sure most of those folks will have luck finding a home, given the number of MMOs currently in development.

To me, the downside is that people will cite this situation as proof that there isn't a market for harder core MMOs that aim somewhere north of the lowest common denominator, when I suspect the reasons the game wasn't more successful has less to do with the design philosophy then with other factors.



I don't know how much I like "hardcore." Experience loss when you die and being robbed when you get ganked in PvP aren't really fun gameplay mechanics.  High death penalties discourage exploration, and other risks in games, punish people for taking on challenges rather than questing on "safe," dull, lower level monsters. I really don't see how a grind is made more high-end by implementing the possibility of actually going backwards.

I disagree with the design decisions to roll back a lot of the progress and innovations over the last few years. I think areas designed in tight, purpose-oriented ways is preferable to long travel times over empty terrain. I think instances for scripted PvE events are better than waiting for named mobs to respawn. Frankly, I think all these games benefit by having un-fun elements stripped out of them.  I don't want a game that punishes me for playing it. I know some players dislike WoW's innovations because they have reduced the level of frustration associated with progressing in these games, but I think lowering the frustration factor is not the same as catering to a "lowest common denominator."


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Yegolev on May 16, 2007, 11:03:23 AM
Too much to bold. So only bolded one thing.

I would have bolded "tentpole".  Good thing I'm not in charge.

Have I congratulated you on that interview in this thread yet?


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Xanthippe on May 16, 2007, 11:08:13 AM
To me, the downside is that people will cite this situation as proof that there isn't a market for harder core MMOs that aim somewhere north of the lowest common denominator, when I suspect the reasons the game wasn't more successful has less to do with the design philosophy then with other factors.

Why would that be the lesson people come away with rather than the clusterfuck management philosophy?


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Falconeer on May 16, 2007, 11:21:26 AM
Shadowbane was proof that there isn't a market for PvP.

The opposite. Shadowbane is proof THERE is a market for PvP. At the same time, it is proof that you need money and talent to craft a working client/netcode.

EDIT: Crap! I fell into the Sarchasm. Stupid fast reading while working. Meh me.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Murgos on May 16, 2007, 12:34:32 PM
Oh look Falconeer fell into the Sarchasm.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Sky on May 16, 2007, 01:24:15 PM
(http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/9471/sarchasm5zn.jpg)


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Margalis on May 16, 2007, 01:51:26 PM
Shit sandwhiches are proof that nobody likes sandwhiches.


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Furiously on May 16, 2007, 02:36:05 PM
Someone must like them, why else would people make them?


Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Daegarmo on May 16, 2007, 04:09:49 PM
Ever since the dramatic changes that pushed the raw, untamed PvP out of Ultima Online, many of the very old school PvPers have been looking for a home (To play, not to work) that has the best interest of the PvP community at heart, and more importantly in the original concept documents.  So far only EvE has come close, which is why I am proud to say I spend most of my gaming time there.

I honestly think that the next fantasy game that welcomes this community, with open arms, with at least an honest server ruleset that was planned from the very beginning, will be pleasantly surprised how many paying customers will show up, and stay loyal.

As for the entire Sigil part of this thread . . . no comment.  :nda:  :-D



Title: Re: The Short and Morbid Tale of Sigil Games Online
Post by: Murgos on May 16, 2007, 04:11:48 PM
Someone must like them, why else would people make them?

Or, people keep eating them?  Hey look!  We made an analogy to Vanguard, yuck, yuck, yuck.