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I have been toying with the idea of respeccing my 64 rogue (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-talents.xml?r=Steamwheedle+Cartel&n=Grishak). I feel like I have been wandering down the talent trees with no real goal in mind (as is evidenced by my talent dispersement). I would like to remain a dagger rogue, and I want to keep Improved Sap (good for instances). Other than that, I am open to suggestions. Any former or current rogues have thoughts?

Pointy end goes in the bad guy. 

Wish I could help, rogue's been mothballed since 60.  I'm not sure I have the stomach to level him up since I've just leveled a rogue-in-chain (shaman) and a cat rogue (druid) to 70 and 69 respectively.  I think I may be reaching my limit of thrash melee leveling.

Here is mine.  I'm completely a dagger rogue and this build has been very good to me.  Mutilate can be devastating.  I do a lot of stun, move around back, and mutliate action.  I have no problem cutting anything down very quickly and efficiently.  Just remember to use DOT poisons for even more damage.

Improved Sap is a must for any Rogue.  I have no idea why you would go without it.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-talents.xml?r=Whisperwind&n=Drenz

Haha Rasix @ rogue-in-mail.  That's actually the reason I canned my enhancement experiement @ L70 and respecced back to Resto on my shaman.

As for my rogue, Cerrano is currently L65 and I changed from subtley @ 60 to combat till 62, then to mutilate.  I'm running a 46/0/9 (or 8) build atm and love it.  Mutilate gives you more points to throw around, and like Dren said, lots of stunnage too.  Double deady poisons for PvE (big envenom's for solo'ing), wounding/crip for PvP. 

I'd like to end up with very near Dren's build @ 70, with a few minor adjustments (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?3053001052221325010512000000000000000000000000502530000300000000000) (Little bit of poison effects instead of remorseless, 2/3 gouge for some pvp filler).  Morphiend also has a mutilate build last I checked.  It's fun.

Edit: Dren is a gay night elf.

Actually, when I respec I'll probably leave improved Backstab out and use the points somewhere else.  I use Mutilate for my  backstab anymore.  It does more consistent damage and awards 2 points rather than 1.

You might want to do the same.  I don't know any reason to have both available except that many targets are immune to poison.  Mutilate would be reduced at that point, but I still think it does better damage overall than improved backstab even without the poison addition.  I don't have any data to back that up...just a feeling.

I'd put the points into Murder and top off Find Weakness to get even more damage overall.  Or I might top off Setup.  It is nice to get points from "nowhere" as your fighting.  I've escaped some hairy situations by coming up with huge suprising burst damage seemingly from nowhere over and over.

It's all about the points!

I like your build, Dren. I might tweak mine by removing the combat points to start and see how I like it. It will take some getting used to though; I use Gouge alot as an opener when I have to fight out of stealth. Since I got access to Deadly Poison VI I have become a big fan of Envenom too. I see that you skipped the poisoning skills (as I did)- have you experimented with maxxing out poison to see how it works? It seems like it would kick ass in PvP.

WAP - I'm running 5/5 Vile and 5/5 Imp. Poisons and it's pretty awesome.  The Vile Poisons increases your envenom by 20% which is huge.  My only problem w/ Imp. Poisons is it's still a percentage and you actually can go a span without applying any poisons.  But right now solo'ing, I can envenom and I'm back up to 3/5 deadly poisons in no time.

Good on you for keeping Imp. Sap.  There is nothing more worthless in a BC instance than a rogue without Improve Sap, because 90% of the time they STILL want to try to SAP and aggro the whole group.  Then they are flash/NS healed, and the healer dies, and a wipe.  its got to the point where if I am in a group with a non-Imp. Sap rogue I just leave.

Since Sap got 100%, it's a no brainer.

However, I too quit my Rogue at 62.

Bored.  So very, very bored.

Ill second Hats suggestion for Mutilate. Its pretty much the best way to have high DPS daggers and still have imp sap.

Mutilate is nice but not the end-all of dagger specs.

This (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fGecox0oiZZyMfc0hR0xo) is the spec I currently use. Its sustained (PVE) DPS isn't as high as Mutilate, but Preparation and Seal Fate make for a very potent PVP build. The boosted Rupture damage also helps you a ton against paladins and warriors, and the occasional bear druid.

Shadowstep is a fun PVP spec, though I think the talent is still lacking in some respects. Not a very good PVE spec, either.

Combining Mutilate with Combat instead of Subtlety gives you more raw DPS (highest possible of any rogue spec) at the sacrifice of utility like Improved Sap. Something like this (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=whecoxroidVoGcV0bV). Improved Slice and Dice rocks for any sustained DPS encounter, and with Precision you can afford to grab more +crit gear at the expense of +hit. Dual Wield Specialisation is the real boost there, though, because the increased offhand damage applies to the offhand attack in Mutilate as well.

[edit] Oh Dren, you might want to consider mainhanding Ced's Carver.

[oh look, quote is not edit. go me.]

I've got a pretty similar build,
Which is here (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?3253201050021325010510000000000000000000000005502500300000000000000) and like the others seems to work well enough for me.

Damn it.  Thanks Chenghiz.  I completely didn't not think of mainhanding Ced's Carver.  Total brainfart there.  :|

I think I was so excited from finding it that I dropped in the closest slot and was one happy Rogue.  Silly, I know.

Started playing Iron again and I just can't get a build I'm happy with at all.

Tried everything, but it's just not gelling well for me at all and I appear to be getting my ass kicked regularly.  Sure, I'm probably undergeared for my level, but whatever talents I choose don't seem to make a hell of a lot of difference to me.

The way I see it, you have 4 routes to take:

Alpha Strike (heavy sub/assassin): Big hits w/ openers + Prep!
Control: Hemo builds w/ lots of Combo builds ups (SF/HEMO)
Swashbuckler: Combat/Assassin build, best raw DPS
Poison Bitch: Mutilate build which is a bit more rounded, good CP generation + good damage, but not as much CP generation as hemo, and not as much damage as combat.

I'm the last one on Cerrano my L66 rogue.  I like it.  Lets me still feel roguish.

I just respecced last night yet again.  I was waiting for the new patch, but got tired of not getting the DPS I wanted in instances.  I was a poison bitch (using MrHat's desciriptions) and went with Combat/Assasination.  I wanted the higher overall DPS advantage that it gives.

While it gave me what I wanted, it certainly is not as rogueish as poison bitch, just like MrHat suggests.  Now I'm just fast and hit hard where before, I had to move around a lot and get the right shot in and build up points for that big slam of poison and double weapon strike.  It was more exciting and felt like you had to have more player skill for it.  I liked it.

I'm a slave to the instances now, so I'm giving that all up for now.  I'll probably respec in about a month.  That seems to be my attention span these days with specs.

Mutilate is lots of fun if you have really good gear as it requires lots of crit and TWO good daggers to be effective.  I've played with a lot of rogue specs and so far the best one i've found is 30ass/31sub.  Prep is just amazing, 5 combo point ambushes with master of subtlety followed inmediately by a cold blood evicerate will put anyone into panic mode the second you pop out of stealth.  The replacement talent for imp sap that gives extra range and lower energy cost to blind/sap is a must have a lot more than imp sap ever was.  I don't really give a crap about dps in instances or pve at all so this is purely a pvp/arena spec, but im sure its very competitive on the damage charts also.

Well, yes, for a pvp build, ALPHA STRIKE is the name of the game.

I was actually thinking about a Shadowstep build for the arena, using shadowstep to get an early sap in.

Shadowstep is all kinds of bad.  One of those 'cool ideas' that doesn't work.

I agree with Threash.  That build (the one I used to have) is a very good PvP build for massive damage as your opener.  For long fights though, not so much.  I do not PvP at all yet, so I went with Combat.  It gives me high DPS without so many huge spikes that draw agro.  Before, I was lower overall DPS for long fights, yet I was still grabbing agro when I jammed two daggers into the thing's back.

For some reason, MOB's don't like that much.

I too was going to wait for the patch but I ended up respeccing from my combat daggers build to a wierd 10/21/30 build with blade flurry and hemo. Its damage output is pretty sad really, but it makes up for it with the sheer amount of combo points it generates and reduced cooldowns on pretty much every major ability I have.

I do notice the huge dependancy I have on cool-downs now as combat-spec.  When I can use the cool-downs, I'm unstoppable.  When they run out? Weak as a kitten (still with claws, but you know what I mean.)  I need to send my rogue more potions.  Heal-pots are a must when I'm all out of tricks to pull.

Envenom.  Someone explain this to me.

You have to have at least one dose of poison on the target and at least one action point to spend.  It is a finishing move that goes up in damage relative to the number of doses of poison on the target.  With 5 doses and a crit, this can be a very devastating attack.  I do not believe it depends on action points (just need one,) so it can be attempted quite often depending on your spec for applying poisons.

It can be tricky in that if you don't have any poison applied (poison resistanct or immune mobs for example,) you can't use it.  Most of the time this works quite well, but I've been stuck many times.  You really have to be watching for those doses and if you can't seem to get them, go to a different finishing move.

Oh, envenom also uses those doses of poison, so you have to rebuild the doses in between each move.  It also means the DOT affect is off the mob too.

By poison, Dren means Deadly Poison.

By action points, Dren means combo points.

Why would you use envenom over eviscerate? -Envenom ignores armor and the talent Vile Poisons increases it's damage @ 5/5 by 20%.

Right, I get all that - Except the end bit, which is the info I wanted.

I'd been playing about with it and my Evis was doing about 1.5 compared to a 2k envenom.

It's the whole 'It Ignores Armor Fucknut' bit that interested me.

So we're saying that apart from the fiddly fuck trouble of actually getting 5 doses and 5 combo points, this should ALWAYS be your finisher if you have improved poison talents like me ?

Always is a strong word.

When I'm up against bosses, I like to bleed them out and keep SnD up instead of blowing envenom (cold blood works better on mutliate).

Both of my friends who play rogues prefer Hemo builds for doing pretty much everything, PvE/PvP/Solo/Group. Works pretty good for trash at least.

I  :heart: Envenom. As far as i can tell, it DOES rely on combo points and doses, so a 5+5 attack will do more than a 1+5. I will have to tinker around with it and double check, however. I like to use Cold Blood + Envenom on boss fights...building up the combo points and doses takes long enough that my 2700+ crit won't pull aggro off the tank 99% of the time. My Eviscerate crits are much lower...I want to say like 2100 or so.

I don't think you need to have 5 combo points.  1 is just as good as 5.  That's another advantage to it, especially if you have fast weapon strikes and high venoming probability.

I could be wrong though, but haven't seen anything that tells me there is an advantage to popping envenom at 1 or 5 combo points.

Yeah, I get terminology wrong in these games all the time.  Sorry for the confusion.  Hell I had to go look up exactly what envenom was, because I confuse it with that other ability (can't remember that one either) that gives you a combo point AND poisons (100% chance on hit.)  By the way, that skill helps with envenom quite a bit.

I had to go look it up-


That seems to indicate that you need 5 combo points to do all 5 doses. Whether it actually works that way is another story, however. I will mess around with it tonight (Gruul run! I am doomed).

You were serious about that raiding thing after all.  :-D

If it's your guild's first Gruul run, you'll have approx. 20 seconds to "mess around with it." Unless, of course, you meant on normal mobs.

I think the guild has tried it a couple of times, but this is my first trip. I will probably find some mobs to test it out on before we get going...I am guessing it will be like herding cats getting everyone together.

You need 5 CPs to use 5 stacks of poison. Thus to be maximally effective you need 5 stacks on your target and 5 CPs. Theorycrafting apparently indicates that the amount of damage you lose by not having deadly poison on your target after you Envenom is not at all outweighed by the extra damage you do by ignoring armor, and additionally not many mobs have enough armor for it to matter much at all. It's a pretty lackluster ability with far too many contingencies to be useful as it is now.

I stand corrected.  I basically loved that skill (don't use it anymore) whenever I'd see that big flashing 2500+ crit come up, but it was few and far between.  Plus, the number of times that I could have used a big finish, but couldn't do it because of lack of poison doses for one reason or another was just frustrating.  It was a big reason I went to combat.  I now concentrate on getting the highest crit rating I can and just go for Slice and Dice along with Eviserate.

The other 70 rogue in our guild has the same build (I'm trying to be like her.)  She has the epic daggers from the Scryer Rep and the (can't remember name again!...bandaged dudes in Negrand...dammit!) rep.  She got Mongoose put on both too.  She rips things up like you wouldn't believe.  She pulled agro off our guild's main tank last night in Kara, which is nearly impossible to do.  While I was laughing at her, I was also recognizing that THAT is the position you want to be in.  Have the ability to have TOO much DPS, but know how to scale back to avoid agro.

I'm working on my Scryer rep now.  :wink:

Morv - PVE Combat Daggers. Lots of Karazhan gear. (http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Tichondrius&n=Morv)

Also, dont worry about crit to much. If you do combat daggers, with decent gear and buffs you should be around 60-70% crit with backstab. Also, you want the fasted possible dagger in your offhand. I suggest getting the Arena offhand dagger. It should only take 3 weeks in a 5v5 arean team if you lose 7 or your 10 matches a week.

From what I've read, envenom can be pretty useful in pvp though, esp. against high armored targets. It also consumes the DOT on the victim, so you're free to blind/gouge without it breaking...


-- Z.

The problem becomes, why would you ever use deadly poison over wound poison/cripple wound/wound wound/mind mind/cripple cripple/cripple in pvp. with the options to equip wound/cripple, wound/wound, wound/mind, mind/wound, mind/cripple, mind/mind, cripple/cripple, the only time you'll likely be using deadly/anything is the rare chance of grouping with another rogue.

When you're partnered with another Rogue.

Thank you for that.

I've just been lawyered.

I don't disagree with you.  But you did ask the question.