f13.net

I did some searches and found the $1,500 PC thread, but that looked to be more about building a PC than buying a customized one from Dell or HP. That's good research for if I decide to go the build-myself route. However, I'm also looking into the have-someone-else-do-it one.

Customizing a PC at Dell.com these days is to me like trying to develop WoW Talent Templates without having played that Class. As in, I know what I don't know now after having tried my hand at a customized Dimension E521. It seems ok to me, and I'd probably just go 4gb of RAM, but I made just enough guesses I'm not confident with it. Here's basically what it's got:

• Athlon 64 X2 Dual-Core 5600+. I can't find out the sort of motherboard they're using. I don't even know what sort of expansion slots there are. Help?
• Vista Home Premium. Gonna need to take the plunge at some point anyway.
• 2gb SDRAM (533MHz). I'd probably just push to 4gb and be done with it, particularly for Vista and gaming.
• 250gb Serial ATA (7200RPM). Not sure how useful "DataBurst cache" is.
• 256MB ATI Radeon X1300 Pro. This was the max I could get on this config, but I'm assuming this'd be the first thing replaced in a few years.
• Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio. This sorta sucks, but as long as I've got an expansion slot, I can upgrade later when I'm able to use more than just headphones (kids asleep in the next room during gaming hours).

Stuff I'm thinking I need:

• I'd love to play FPS games with AA and AF and 30fps, as on my current box, I can't even have those active for WoW.
  
• I've got a 20.1" widescreen I'd want to continue playing at max res with (1680 x 1020 I think is the sweet spot iirc). I don't do dual-monitor anymore.
• I don't need MS Office (I have it already from a recent laptop purchase)
• I don't need crazy service plans. I manetane gud.
• I've got a Logitech wireless keyboard and mouse already.

Would that spec be fine for now and for at least 2 years or so? Is it based on stuff I'm likely able to upgrade down the road? There's really not much I can do with my current Athlon XP box aside from what's already been done (faster drive, video cards, RAM) as the processor is near the cap what the board can support.

one thing I'd be careful of, because I've always bought Dells, is the amount of preloaded and unnecessary apps they have.  You don't actually get to specify "do NOT put Symantec stuff or Dell's media player etc."  There is a particular "Support.exe" that I still can't get rid of.  So there is a fair amount of unnecessary stuff running in the background that's hard to turn off with Dell imaged box.  You can always check what is running and optionally turn stuff off with msconfig.exe.  Personally, my new box will be a generic component build, with pretty much similarl things like you have listed.  Don't forget to get a motherboard with PCI-Express, otherwise you will be fubared.

Thanks Soln. Already learned something. I thought PCI-express was just for video cards. I will definitely ensure to get that no matter which way I go.

And man I hear ya on the pre-loaded software thing. If I went this route, I'd actually assumed I'd get it, wipe the drive, do a clean install of Windows Vista and go from there. I went through the "packed with 200 useless things" period with my first Dell and I'm not going that again. Craps up my RAM and I'd rather not mess with whatever passes for msconfig under Vista just yet.

Dell used to have their MBs custom made and I would assume they still do. Download the manual and look at the pretty pictures to determine how many slots it has.

I'd highly recommend the Core 2 Duo line. It's just splendid ;)

Not sure on the specs of that video card. Most cards have 128bit memory controllers, and I've always stuck with 256bit and it's worked out just ducky (for my 9800pro, anyway). RAM should be fine if you don't intend on overclocking. If you're getting Vista, everyone is saying load in 4GB if you're used to 2GB in XP. And I've heard rumblings of higher RAM prices because of Vista reqs, fwiw (I don't speculate!).

I'd be wary of the power supply in a Dell. Also, Vista scares me, still. Been hearing a lot of griping about immature drivers, but that's natural. Something to be aware of, though. The audio...depends on who's doing the integrated chip. There are a few real stinkers out there, and none as good as the old Soundstorm chip, but with your caveats you might be ok.

I spent on the high side of my comfort level building a $2300 pc, but at Dell it would've been $5000 (I know, I checked!).

Dell has recently tried to pull some bullshit like not actually giving you the Windows disk, they put it on a separate partition which you can build from and if you do that it naturally has all the unnecessary crap already installed.  You might have to check an option to actually get Vista on a disk for another ten dollars and even then I'll bet it still has a lot of worthless crap tacked on to it.

Everyone is saying the Core 2 Duo is better than AMD right now too.  If the upgrade to four gigs of ram is reasonably priced I would take that since Dell would probably give you the cheapest two gig configuration by using up all your slots meaning you would be unable to simply add another two gigs later, you would have to buy four and waste the two in there now.

I have an anecdotal story that you may or may not take into consideration.  Just after moving to Atlanta, I took advantage of the giant asian computer shit-stores up on the NE side.  I had already figured out what parts I wanted, so I went in there and bought them.  This was before newegg.com existed.  The guy asks if I want him to put it together.  I say no, I'll just do it myself.  He says that he will do it for $25.  I shrugged and agreed.

They tried some crap like that with me where they wouldn't ship the CDs but remotely fix any such software issues that came up. They hadn't installed my CD/DVD burner software correctly, and I found this out when trying to find the CDs.  I told them on the support call that this was unacceptable and the CDs for all of my applications including XP arrived in 2 days.

When I put together my Dell it was about $200-300 more than just the parts/software from New Egg and other sites.  I do not enjoy building my own machine.  I do not have the patience for it and I do not want to live with fucking part of it up. If I need to overclock something, I'm not going to bother.  So, this was acceptable.   

System's been running great with almost no problems. Since TBC, WoW likes to crash once a lunar cycle.

Noone should be buying an AMD machine right now. I love AMD. I wish they'd get their act together, but buying an AMD machine now is like buying an AGP motherboard; you're pushing your re-upgrade date back by a bunch.

Rasix very well summarized one of the reasons I started leaning this way: patience. As in, I don't have much of it, mostly due to time compression.

At the same time, accounts of Dell here give me pause. I'm not going to go that route unless a) I absolutely get the install CDs; and, b) I absolutely do not require they remotely fix problems. I don't want their vaunted service and support beyond them taking the machine back if it's busted. I didn't use it when I bought the first Dell. I didn't use it when I got my Alienware box (the current modded-rig).

Maybe Dell is overkill for me. I really want a competently-built machine I then take over the maintenance of.

I'll poke around Newegg and a few other places.


Why is that? In layman's terms :)

Don't buy a Dell, seriously at least try this first unless you live in bumfuck nowhere.

Build a comp with your choice of components, get the price from newegg.  Add 5-10% to that cost, this will be your target price.

Go to a couple of hole in the wall nearby computer shops.  Ask them if they can build the rig you've designed.  See how much they say it will cost.

Then compare that to a Dell of similar price, you may be pleasantly surprised.  Also most computer shacks are pretty cool (at least in SF) they know you, so if something goes haywire its less of a  bitch to deal with them then even the best phone tech support.

That's my 2 cents.

Because C2D rocks. Seriously. Cheap, cool (temps), fast. Layman's terms!

I'm also a big fan of AMD, and I've considered going C2D for my next upgrade.  My Athlon 64 was purchased just before they were really out there, and it's much better temp-wise than the Thunderbird Athlon I had before, but the Intel's of the current gen are very very nice.

I'm hoping AMD can come up with something to compete again, as I really prefer them; on the other hand, performance, price, etc.

--
Alkiera

C2D?

Ah, interesting idea. I'd actually probably ask my brother-in-law.

Still need to know what's up with AMD. I'd be ready to roll on this next week if I knew which CPU type with which to. I've heard Intel has gotten their act together, but I want to understand why AMD's fallen out of favor to Engels (and presumably others) first. My old Dell was Intel and my Alienware is AMD, narry a problem on either.

Is it that AMD is no longer bleeding edge? Or is there some sort of basic architecture thing in this generation of processors that make Intel better or more scalable (or both)?

I just got an AMD X2, but that was because my last upgrade I got a 939-pin motherboard, which at the time gave me the ability to piecemeal upgrade to dual core at a later date. At this point, going new, with the appropriate budget, Core2Duo seems to be where it's at.

If you want best-of-breed components, but not assemble it, look at mwave.com's or newegg's barebones PC setups. Pick the case, PSU, CPU, and RAM, and they'll assemble that. Everything else should be easy enough to do yourself... You could have them assemble full systems, but then it isn't as cost effective, IMO.

What can I say about F13?  It's really my favorite website in the entire universe!  I love the irreverent banter and sly wit these keyboard jockeys produce.  And I especially love the staff, they're AWESOME.

Core 2 Duo.

AMD lost the performance edge when Intel released the C2D this past Fall.  For your dollar, you get better performance and less power consumption.
They are also essentially at price partiy for a given amount spent.

This does not mean a new Athlon 64 is crap, but whey buy one when you can get something better for about the same amount?  For me, power consumption is
paramount, since I *hate* loud PC's and I spend considerable effort to use quiet fans, passively cooled GPU's, etc.  I found that I could use a much lower fan speed
and still have C2D only lukewarm to the touch in just about every setting.  Coupled with higher performance it's pretty much a no-brainer, a least for today. ;)

Ah ok Core 2 Duo.

Thanks for the mwave link! Never heard of them. I like their Barebones customize option, and in a second would go for the "Test/Assemble" $29 charge. So with the processor and memory chosen I'd be digging into their site for hard drive, other drives, whatever cards I needed right?

I'll poke around this weekend, research and whatnot, and post a potential build here if you guys aren't tired of me :)

Think Asus is a good place to start for case? It's the only name I recognized, so am very open to options.

I got a few Dell E520's for work, and one for home, and in my case I went for as cheap as possible (P4 processor).

The things that they've done are:

1.  They have removed all the damn legacy ports from the back of the computer.  You get a LAN connection, 5 USB connections, and that's it.  You want a LPT port,  you have to buy an adapter from somewhere else.  You want serial ports, same thing.  Luckily, I found nice adapters that work well with XP Pro from Cables Unlimited (purchased via tigerdirect.com).  They don't even have the usual PS2 connections for keyboard and mouse, it's all USB.  Anyway, if you have serial port devices or parallel port printers, or if you want to keep your old ergonnomic keyboard, it's extra headaches.

2.  These computers have 1 PCI-E slot and 2 PCI slots, that's it.  Internal bays can hold 2 CD/DVD drives up top, one floppy under that, and looks like 2 SATA hard drives max (one is usually installed).  For the hard drives, there are two connectors for power, but only one for data, so if you get another SATA hard drive, you have to buy another data link cable.

3.  The power supply is 305W, Dell custom.  Seems to have the ATX connectors, but I'm not sure if it has the exact ATX pinouts (it should), or if the holes for where it screws into the case correspond to any other standard ATX power supply.  I hear Dell offers a 340W power supply, a 370W, and a 700W, but I haven't actually verified this info.  Last time I bought a Dell (years ago), I specified I wanted a bigger power supply, they quoted me part numbers and prices for it, but shipped my system with the 305W one anyway.  Sucks.

Other than this, the systems seem ok.  I uninstalled all the crap, sort of, including Norton Internet Security and the trial version of Office 2003 (they put it on even if you don't specify), and bought my own Norton Antivirus (just AV) and Office 2003 basic from somewhere else.

There is a PS2 to USB adapter you can get which handles the keyboard and mouse in the same USB socket.

I believe the Dell AMD boards are nForce4's (or at least the X2 3800+ one appeared to be).

Also the most recent Core 2 Duo I bought from Dell had no IDE at all. Even the DVD-ROM was SATA. I think you get higher grade crap from the Small Business side of Dell but you pay more for it. Also I think they stick you for the extra 2 gigs in a 4 gig setup so if you wanted 4 gigs you may want to go w/ 2 and then buy 2 from NewEgg or something.


Never buy from Dell without a coupon or using one of their deals. Watch this page (http://www.techbargains.com/dell_coupons.cfm) until you see a good one pop up. But then my target price for buying from Dell is $600.

Even better, you can check out OTHER sites for stuff. You can potentially get a better price that way. Though mwave's prices are usually competitive.

What can I say about F13?  It's really my favorite website in the entire universe!  I love the irreverent banter and sly wit these keyboard jockeys produce.  And I especially love the staff, they're AWESOME.

Now we're back in the other thread :P

FWIW, the tech guys where I work are very negative on Dells these days, due to poor reliability. I've been buying all my machines lately (I buy about half a dozen a year) from a local custom-build company. The ONLY thing I like about Dell is their on-site same-day service, but I guess you said you're not interested in that.

If you think back to the Athlon 64 and the Pentium 4, the A64 had the advantage of being a more efficient design (more computing power per clock cycle) and it had "headroom" to spare, meaning AMD could keep bumping up the clock speed as their manufacturing process improved while the P4 was less efficient and running out of headroom (more accurately it was getting too hard to keep cool as Intel kept bumping up the speed).

Now the situation has reversed. The Core is the more efficient design compared to the A64 and has plenty of headroom left while the A64 is starting to reach its limit. You can see benchmarks here:

http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=2933

Notice how the X2 5600+ is about the same price as the E6600 but the E6600 beats it in all but a handful of benchmarks. This is the problem AMD is up against right now. AMD has been working on the next-gen version of the Athlon architecture (the Barcelona) which looks promising but it'll be a while before a desktop-version of that architecture is produced since the initial version will be a server CPU.

I like Antec cases.

Lian-LI makes some sexy cases.

Didn't see any on mwave, but I'll keep poking around. And I'll stick with them for now because of the $29 setup/test thing. I'd like to ensure something fairly quiet. My current rig scares airplanes away.

Quick questions:

1) Power supply? 750w? Or is that overkill?
2) Motherboard? Go with whatever is listed next to the C2D processor?
3) Memory? What's reliable? I recognize Kingston and think I heard something good about it once...
4) Video card? I'm taking suggestions.
5) Sound card- Seems like Soundblaster is just about the only show in town. As mentioned I can skimp, but I've long not been a fan of integrated anything. Maybe that's old school?

The rest of the stuff I'm thinking of just boosting from my current computer:

• 7200rpm 250gb internal hd- not super fast, but it's been fine, unless you guys say 10,000 or don't bother with the new computer
• DVD ROM
• CD-Writer. Not the latest and greatest but gets the job done.

Dq I am also buying (well bought) so i am compelled to try to answer as well as relate my journey. Point by point.

1), Power supply ( please don't skimp here) If your running 1 vid card and no more then 2 HD I got to think 750 is way to much. 500+ is your goal 28 amps on +12 V line and you should be good.

2) mother board. This is hard to recommend as it depends on what you are trying to do, I went with a 650i chipset as it has a lot of capability at a reasonable cost. my part #  Asus P5N-E SLI nForce® 650i SLI Chipset w/6-channel CODEC, Gb LAN, S-ATA Raid, USB 2.0, IEEE-1394 Dual PCI-E MB. Again you got to judge that against your needs not mine.

3)Memory, Kingston, corsair, Patriot theres a lot of good memory out there. For XP 2 gig for Vista consider 4 gig. if you go to the manufactures websight you should be able to enter your motherboard part number and get a list of memory that will work.

4) Vid card. Aye thats the nub Eh? I went with  NVIDIA GeForce 8800GTS 640MB w/DVI + TV Out Video ). Thats bascily the 2nd best (I tend to buy there. the best costs extra). Thats a no shit gaming card but thats why I am buying. YMMV and all like that.

5) Sound. I am going with interagrated sound but my current system has both onboard and a soundblaster card so thats my back up position.

I did my research, I came up with a parts list then as a reality check I saw what a custom builder would build it for. the answer was for $70. dollars less than buying the parts at newegg. I lose geek points by having the system built but I gain a 3 year warranty. any way thats my journey and my take on your questions.

Good luck and good hunting

Heres the full build

 Gamer Master      $1,757.00      1     $1,757.00
Case ( NZXT Trinity ATX Mid-Tower Case w/400W Power Supply Black )
Case Lighting ( None )
Power Supply ( Enermax EG565P 535 Watt Power Supply [SLI-Ready] )
Processor ( Intel Core 2 Duo Processor E6300 (2x 1.86GHz/2MB L2 Cache/1066FSB) )
Free Software/Game ( [Free] iBUYPOWER Aegis Case - for your Games, Accessories, Disks, Manuals ... etc. --- $19.99 value )
Free Software/Game ( Free Game - [Hero] )
Free Software/Game ( [Free] iBUYPOWER T-Shirt with Archlord Game Graphic on Back --- $19.99 value )
Processor Cooling ( [New !!!] iBUYPOWER Liquid CPU Cooling Fan System Kit --- [for INTEL CPU] )
Motherboard ( Asus P5N-E SLI nForce® 650i SLI Chipset w/6-channel CODEC, Gb LAN, S-ATA Raid, USB 2.0, IEEE-1394 Dual PCI-E MB )
Memory ( 2048MB [1024MB X2] DDR2-800 PC6400 Memory Module Corsair-Value or Major Brand )
Video Card ( [==New !!!==] NVIDIA GeForce 8800GTS 640MB w/DVI + TV Out Video )
Video Card Brand ( === High Performance === eVGA Brand Video Card Powered by NVIDIA )
Hard Drive ( 250 GB HARD DRIVE [Serial-ATA-II, 3Gb, 7200 RPM, 8M Cache] )
2nd Hard Drive ( None )
External Raid Hard Drives [USB 2.0/eSATA] ( None )
CD/DVD Drive ( [** Special !!! ***] 18X Dual Format/Double Layer DVD±R/±RW + CD-R/RW Drive Black )
CD-RW/DVD-RW Drive ( None )
Sound Card ( 3D Premium Surround Sound Onboard )
Speaker System ( None )
Fax Modem ( None )
Network Card ( Onboard LAN Network (Gb or 10/100) )
Floppy Drive ( None )
Monitor ( LCD Monitor ViewSonic 17" Q7B TFT LCD Monitor  )
2nd Monitor ( None )
Keyboard ( Logitech Deluxe Keyboard Black )
Mouse ( Logitech Optical Internet Mouse Black )
Meter Display ( None )
Flash Media Reader/Writer ( None )
Operation System ( MS Windows XP Professional w/ Service Pack 2 )
Media Center Remote Control & TV Tuner ( None )
IEEE-1394 Fire Wire Card ( None )
USB Flash Drive ( None )
TV Tuner ( None )
Video Camera ( None )
Headset ( None )
Power Protection ( None )
Printer ( None )
Printer Cable ( None )
Wireless Network Adapter ( [Special !!!] Wireless 802.11g 54Mbps PCI Adapter )
Warranty ( Warranty Service Standard 3-Year Limited Warranty + Lifetime Technical Support )
Rush Service ( Rush Service Fee (not shipping fee) No Rush, Ship Out in 5~10 Business Days )

Overkill unless you plan on going with SLI/Crossfire sooner rather than later.

It's better to decide on a chipset first and then pick a motherboard. You should check out the other two recent system threads:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=9025.0
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=9213.0

Unfortunately the C2D chipset situation is a bit problematic at the moment.  The most stable one is probably Intel's 975X but it can't do a full 32 lanes of video in Crossfire mode and it doesn't support NVIDIA SLI and AMD bought ATI so who know what that means for ATI Crossfire support on Intel MBs. NVIDIA's 680i is buggy but has more features.

If you are unsure look at Corsair first.

I don't like onboard sound so my current preference is something Creative Labs X-Fi related.

I don't like the selection at Mwave but here's what I would get if I had $1500 to spend on a C2D system minus the hard drive:

ASUS P5N32-E SLI nVIDIA nFORCE 680I SLI CHIPSET    $229.95
INTEL CORE 2 DUO E6600 (BX80557E6600) 2.4GHZ EM64T DUAL CORE W/4MB CACHE 1066MHZ    $309.00
CORSAIR TWIN2X2048-6400C4 2GB KIT (1GB x 2) PC26400 800MHZ MATCHED PAIR 4-4-4-12    $231.00
ZALMAN CNPS9500 LED-CU COPPER BASE CPU COOLING FAN FOR AMD (SOCKET 754/939/940) AND INTEL (SOCKET 478/775) PROCESSOR W/3 PIN CONNECTOR    $57.50
ANTEC SLK3000B (BLACK) SUPER MID TOWER NO POWER SUPPLY W/ FRONT USB CONNECTOR    $44.85
ANTEC NEOHE 550 NEO POWER EPS 12V VERSION 2.2 550W UL & FCC POWER SUPPLY FOR ATX CASES    $105.80
SAMSUNG 18X SH-S183L SATA+LIGHTSCRIBE w/SW (Black) (White box)    $37.90
CREATIVE LABS SOUNDBLASTER X-FI XTREME GAMER GET FASTER FRAME RATE MORE AUDIO POWER (Retail)     $84.36
XFX GEFORCE 7900 GS 256MB 600MHZ DDR3 DUAL DVI PCI EXPRESS (Retail)     $202.00
   
MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP PROFESSIONAL W/SP2 #E85-04135 (DSP/OEM)    $131.90
ASSEMBLY & TESTING    $79.99

TOTAL $1,514.25

I skimped on the video card cause 1) I wanted to hit the $1500 budget, 2) DX10 cards are too expensive right now for that price range and prices will come down when ATI (finally) releases their line of DX10 cards, and 3) it's much easier to replace a video card than it is to replace the CPU. You didn't mention whether or not your DVD drive can handle DL burning so I threw that in there, plus it's an SATA drive for less cable hassles.

1) 750W is probably overkill. Also, a good, reputable Power Supply manufacturer's 500W model will likely be better than a no-name 750W, as far as stability is concerned. With a newer system I'd go at least 500W, and maybe a little more.

ALSO: For newer video cards/PCI-E x16, the +12 V line is important to look at, both in the video card specs, and the power supply specs.

2) Look into it a bit more. Some companies put out better boards, but also check the different chipsets. Sometimes a couple of different chipsets support the same CPU families, but one is better feature-wise/stability-wise/Upgrade-ability-wise. Things like future SLI video cards, or number of SATA connections (for a future RAID setup) can affect this.

3) I've always gone crucial non-specialty RAM, without an issue (maybe not the best performance or overclockability though *shrug*)

4) This is an interesting decision right now, with Vista/DirectX10 hovering. Currently Vista and the new cards that are DirectX10 have some teething issues (the only card family out there that meets the requirements is the nVidia 8800 series, ATI will have a card out Real Soon Now), and there aren't any fully DirectX10 games until this summer/fall, most likely. So It can make a certain sense to suffer a while with less than optimal video performance, so that by the end of the year one can grab a DirectX10 card (thus being Vista gaming ready) and at a price that will likely be less since the two major competitiors will have models duking it out.

5) I use integrated, because I'm just not enough of an audiophile, so I can't help you here.

What can I say about F13?  It's really my favorite website in the entire universe!  I love the irreverent banter and sly wit these keyboard jockeys produce.  And I especially love the staff, they're AWESOME.

EDIT: Durrrr. See what happens when I ignore the already posted replies? It all gets said. RE: mwave, by all means, look around, they aren't the only one of their type of shop, they're just the one I've used for several years. The options may not be ideal for your system.

Listen to Trippy. And really, read the other thread over, we went over a lot of this iirc. Also,

1. I'm firmly in the camp of not skimping on the psu. I put a 610W in mine. As long as you aren't going to SLI/Crossover, 600-700W is fine.

2. I like my motherboard though I'm thinking of maybe attaching a fan to the bridge heatsink, it's gets a bit toasty.

3. I use crucial, I've literally never built a computer with anything else (well, maybe my 486 had cheap stuff because I didn't know any better). My current has the zomgleet Ballistix with ghey lites™, and it's higher bin than it needs to be. DDR2-800 should be fine, 533 is all you /need/ for C2D if you don't o/c.

4. Trippy might be right here, you might need to skimp on this now to get a good base pc. Then upgrade it this time next year with a nice dx10 piece (assuming there are dx10 games out by then...plus SP1).

5. I'd also say X-Fi, assuming you have a normal computer desk-style setup. Rackin-frackin limits on Creative hardware were the big spoiler on my recent pc build. But for you normal people, it's good stuff. I'm using an Auzentech X-Plosion, which is great for everything but EAX, it's one of the few (only?) cards that has a DD5.1 hardware encoder onboard (originally to replace my soundstorm on nforce2 which blew last year).

7200rpm drive should be fine. Get the samsung SATA dvd burner, it was like $45 (linked in the other thread). On scaring away airplanes: 120mm fans are your friends. Don't get less than 90mm for the cpu hs, either. My new case has all 120mm (4 total, probably going to put in one more), with two running at medium speed, two slow. Nice low hum, only thing I hear is my gpu during gaming, and it's not a high-pitched scary whine. Case - I like my Antec, but it's expensive.

tiny derail, but is there anything built right now that takes advantage of C2D?  I though Carmack, for instance, was critical of it.  All I do know is EQ2 doesn't support it.  But what does it support well?  :rimshot:

C2D works well when you have multiple resource-intensive operations running at the same time.

Carmack has been supporting multi-CPUs since Quake 3 Arena. He's critical of the Cell CPU (too complicatd) but he likes the 360's triple core design. CoH/CoX support multiple CPUs and you get a huge FPS improvement when running on such a system. There are a handful of other games that support multiple CPUs like CoD 2. Multi CPUs right now is more about runnng multiple CPU intensive apps at the same time. If you don't do that sort of thing then you don't get much benefit unless you are running certain specialized apps like video encoders.

I just want to give a warning to those considering Dell.

While I have not confirmed this myself (the only dell machines I order are through the Higher Education system for my job) I know of quite a few faculty in my department who have recently ordered dell through the regular customer site.  After they bought the machine we found out that they ordered the machine with Vista because dell did not give them an option to use XP instead.  So I'd watch out during the ordering process, unless you really don't mind Vista (though god only knows why you would want it).

That's not the case with small business, either.

After the week I've had, I am realizing just how much time I'm not going to have to really build this thing the right way (like in those two other threads). What I do have though is a bit more to spend on this than I thought I would ($2,000), so would like to revisit some stuff. I don't want to go Dell/Alienware because I don't need that service (and hear it's not all that great anymore anyway), but I also don't have $5,000+ for some of the crazier high-end gaming rigs from iBuyPower or whatever.

I'm ready to go with a variant on Trippy's recommendation, but have some general questions first:

• Trippy, you meantion the C2D chipset is a bit "problematic". Does "crossover" mean one chip draws power from the other if it needs it? And is the problem right now that this doesn't function 100% of the time? I ask because if most games don't utilize this feature anyway except those I don't play anyway, then can I buy into C2D now, upgrade firmware later when my types of games do support it?
  
• Further to this, is dual-core really a stepping stone and the world is moving quad-core?
• SLI or not SLI? This still seems like an option. I had originally thought SLI was the future and that's that, but it's sounding from these threads that this may not really be the case. What's the deal? Do I need SLI?
• My current 7200rpm HD is IDE. I was thinking of just moving that straight over to the new computer. But is it better to get a new drive when getting a new rig?

Any thoughts on a place that does the same level of bare-bones thing plus the assembly and testing? I'd rather have that happen on the supplier's end.

The Recommendation:

ASUS P5N32-E SLI nVIDIA nFORCE 680I SLI CHIPSET    $229.95 (Ok)
INTEL CORE 2 DUO E6600 (BX80557E6600) 2.4GHZ EM64T DUAL CORE W/4MB CACHE 1066MHZ    $309.00 (Ok)
CORSAIR TWIN2X2048-6400C4 2GB KIT (1GB x 2) PC26400 800MHZ MATCHED PAIR 4-4-4-12    $231.00 Should I go 4gb and be done with it?
ZALMAN CNPS9500 LED-CU COPPER BASE CPU COOLING FAN FOR AMD (SOCKET 754/939/940) AND INTEL (SOCKET 478/775) PROCESSOR W/3 PIN CONNECTOR    $57.50 (Ok)
ANTEC SLK3000B (BLACK) SUPER MID TOWER NO POWER SUPPLY W/ FRONT USB CONNECTOR    $44.85 Does this include the cooling system/fans?
ANTEC NEOHE 550 NEO POWER EPS 12V VERSION 2.2 550W UL & FCC POWER SUPPLY FOR ATX CASES    $105.80 (Ok)
SAMSUNG 18X SH-S183L SATA+LIGHTSCRIBE w/SW (Black) (White box)    $37.90 (Ok)
CREATIVE LABS SOUNDBLASTER X-FI XTREME GAMER GET FASTER FRAME RATE MORE AUDIO POWER (Retail)     $84.36 (Ok)
XFX GEFORCE 7900 GS 256MB 600MHZ DDR3 DUAL DVI PCI EXPRESS (Retail)     $202.00 Should I got 512mb RAM?
ASSEMBLY & TESTING    $79.99

Crossfire, not crossover. Crossfire is ATI's version of SLI but like I said AMD bought ATI so who knows how well Crossfire will be supported on Intel MBs in the future. For example if AMD comes out with a firmware update in the future for Crossfire will it be available for the Intel MBs? Probably cause they still want people to buy ATI GPUs but who knows? Usually, though, improvements to Crossfire and SLI are done at the driver level rather than the firmware level so you certainly can think of it as an investment in the future in terms of how well games are supported though of course by that time something better might come around.

As for the C2D chipset problems like I said Intel's 975X is probably the most stable "enthusiasts" C2D chipset but it only supports Crossfire and not SLI and in Crossfire mode it only supports dual x8 PCI-e channels and not dual x16 PCI-e. NVIDIA is still working out some kinks in the 680i, mostly having to do with its RAID implementation but it supports SLI in dual x16 mode. If you don't care about SLI or Crossfire none of the 16 channels vs 32 channels stuff matters.

Sure.

Dunno, do you?

If you don't mind wiping out your hard drive and starting over you can reuse it. I do not recommend trying to reinstall Windows on top of an existing installation nor do I recommend just sticking the drive in there and hoping things boot up. If it's a really really old drive it might be time to get a new one before your old one craps out.

Just have Cheddar build you one (with parts you supply) :-D Monarch used to be good but apparently they've been having issues. Probably best to stick with Mwave. Or buy a system from your local white box store assuming you live in one of the civilized parts of the country.

Do you have that many apps running simulatenously that you need 4 GB?

No. You'll need one or two 120mm fans (the front one has to be 25mm or thinner).

Well now that you have a bigger budget you have many more options including getting an NVIDIA 8800 card.

I've read somewhere that Vista with games runs best with at least 3 gig. Since the conversion to Vista is somewhat inevitable, it may be a good choice to buy 4 gig, with the understanding that XP doesn't really do much with more than 2 gig.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of Vanguard?

Yeah, the world is slowly moving towards multi-core systems; Dual-Core is just the first step. That being said, you can get good MBs that support both Dual and Quad CPUs (they use the same slot type).

Personally, I think Crossfire/SLI is practically irrelevant. Getting 2 nice cards now and running them in tandem is really overkill. It's a nice way to be able to upgrade in the future without such a big hit to your wallet, but this isn't the best option for everyone.

If you're building a system from scratch, you might as well get a new HDD. They're cheap nowadays anyway, and they're also using the new, sexy SATA interface. Also, you could still use your old drive as a storage slave drive or something.

I'm the sort of gamer that cancels as many processes as possible before launching a game anyway, generally leaving the game itself, TeamSpeak/Google Talk and Firefox open at most. I was thinking 4gb of RAM right now because it'd get it out of the way, particularly when I decide it's time to go Vista.

On the HDD, I'll just get a new one, since it seems like SATA is the way to go anyway. I bought XP years ago, but as I found out when I installed the new HDD in my computer a few months back, a full install and patch is only about an hour. That I have time for, and after having seen the various things going on with Vista, I'm going to wait at least for SP1, if not beyond. It's pretty and all, but almost everything I do on my gaming computer covers all that nonsense up anyway.

You're joking right? For not this thread, I'd have bought a cheapo Alienware box. :) It seems to me though that folks think SLI/Crossfire is a temporary measure until new cards come out and trounce those en masse. I can sorta understand that. What manufacturer would want to ship twice the components when one set would do, and how many consumers would really buy two for the price of two when they can get one for the price of 1.5?

I was jerking around at the iBuyPower, CyberPower, Alienware/Dell, and DigitalStorm sites just to see how they put stuff together. Between that, the other two threads Trippy mentioned, and this one, I'm actually beginning to understand stuff. It's a shame too, because I know by the time I've gained the confidence to configure/build a PC, the tech will have evolved yet again :)

Some more thoughts/questions:

1) I don't need SLI. I think I can afford the nVidia 8800. That worth it?
2) Is it worth buying a dual-core setup that I can expand to quad-core later? Are there boards that do that and work well?
3) Will I see a real-world difference between 7200rpm and 10,000rpm drives?
4) I'd like to partition the drive so C: is the OS and D: is programs and docs, so I can easily wipe C: later for Vista. How much space should I leave for Vista? 50gb?
5) If I go with a variant on Trippy's recommendation above, do I need WinXP 64-bit?
6) If I don't plan to overclock, do I need anything more than a bunch of fans?

1) Sure. Pushes your upgrade that much further out.

2) Yes it is, and there are boards that do it just fine. Some current quad-core CPUs use the same socket as a C2D.

3) Slight if any, I believe. Shorter access times.

4) 50gb sounds good, as obscene as it sounds.

5) I couldn't honestly say, though I believe you Have to use 64-bit drivers, correct? There are still some people hacing such problems.

6) Good airflow.

Ok, I'm doing something wrong, I just know it. Starting with Trippy's advice, here's where I'm at:

Template at mwave.com: INTEL CORE 2 DUO - 775 SYSTEMS (BLACK)
Case: ASPIRE X-NAVIGATOR (Ima sucker for pretty)
Board: ASUS P5N32-E SLI
Processor: CORE 2 DUO E6600 2.4G (1066Mhz)
Sub-total: $847.54

Components
Power: ANTEC NEOHE 550 NEO POWER EPS 12V VERSION 2.2 550W UL & FCC POWER SUPPLY FOR ATX CASES- $106.70
RAM: KINGSTON 2GB DDR2 667 x 2 (2gb total)
Video: XFX GEFORCE 8800 GTS 640MB PCI EXPRESS 500MHZ DDR3 DAUL DVI/TV- $439.00
Sound: CREATIVE LABS SOUNDBLASTER X-FI XTREME GAMER- $84.36
Cooling: ZALMAN CNPS9500 LED-CU COPPER BASE CPU COOLING FAN- $57.50
OS: MICROSOFT WINDOWS XP PRO 64X SINGLE PACK- $133.90

Total so far: $1,535.10

More questions:

1) I don't have an SLI card so don't need an SLI board right? If so, off I got to research, though am accepting advice :)
2) I would think I'd need more than just that one CPU fan. I'll add more, assuming it's just fans I need.
3) Only getting WinXP for the 64-bit compliancy stuff, assuming I need it.
4) Are there parts of this that are bottle-necks that'd mitigate the effectiveness of a component?

I'm looking to make the purchase by end of this coming week. Good times :)

Get a Seasonic power supply if possible. I've read several rave reviews at places like arstechnica.com.

What can I say about F13?  It's really my favorite website in the entire universe!  I love the irreverent banter and sly wit these keyboard jockeys produce.  And I especially love the staff, they're AWESOME.

That's what I use in my main rig but Mwave doesn't sell them. I have a Neo HE as well (came as part of my P150 case) and it's fine.

If you don't ever plan on going SLI you don't need an SLI MB. However SLI MB tend to have more features than their non-SLI MB counterparts which is one of the reasons why they are more expensive.

Generally you should have one rear case fan. You may or may not need more than that depending on your components and the airflow design of the case.

Getting your drivers working with 64-bit Windows XP may be painful.

Well, technically your video card is still the bottleneck -- moving to the GTX should give you a notiable improvement in frame rates assuming you like to run at super-high resolutions.

Trippy can correct me on this, but perhaps upgrading ram to PC2 6400 instead of PC2 5400 might be a better match, simply because your motherboard is built for 800 bus speeds. 

Oh yes, good thing you noticed that.

Ok thanks!

So:

WinXP Pro (non-64b), since I guess I don't need 64bit compliance stuff.
PC2 6400 RAM to take advantage of the 800 bus speeds
SLI board because of other features.
Review Seasonic power supply (Neo HE is fine though)
Rear exhaust fan only, others optional depending on case.

My case has 2 front intakes, a rear and a top exhaust. So air comes in over the HDD, and also blows towards the VC. Rear and top fans handle my CPU.

As far as I know, unless you're OC'ing, heat shouldn't be much of an issue with the C2D chips.

FIFY.

There are a few companies that produce drivers for XP64, they are mostly videocard and motherboard manufacturers.  You may or may not find soundcard drivers.  Most other devices, like printers, digital cameras, etc, just don't work.  WinX64 Requires 64 bit drivers before it'll understand anything.

Also, in my not especially scientific tests, there was no performance increase in 32-bit games, and 64-bit games are non-existant... Heck, half of the WinX64 utils are still 32-bit, running in emulation (WindowsOnWindows, indeed...)

In short, there's even fewer good reasons to go 64-bit OS than there are to go Vista, and even more bad ones.  WinXP>Vista>WinXP64.

--
Alkiera

There are 64-bit versions of Far Cry, and UT 2004 (I think), and...that's about it.

My personal opinion, and I'm by no means an expert, but that GeForce 8800 is basically the first of the DX10 cards, isn't it?  I need to get a new computer too, but I was going to wait till July/August, for basically the Service Pack 1 of video cards (cheaper, possibly less buggy versions).  But, you can upgrade the video card down the line, so it's not that big of a deal.

Yes.

Prices will drop once ATI finally rolls out its line of DX10 (R600-based) cards.

I think I would rather have 4 gigs of ram and take some money out of the video card or the cpu (downgrade to the E6400).  Not that I know much mind you.

Memory is a lot easier to upgrade than a CPU though, unless you have a gigantic heat sink which is blocking the empty memory slots in which case it's about a wash.

Thanks guys. Going to order this week. I've lived through enough "in a few months" waiting periods to realize the only way I'd save money is if I bought this exact setup in that few months... knowing full well what I'd really do is spend the equivalent cash on a slightly improved setup anyway. So buying now or later really don't matta to me :)

Any particular reason why?

I would prolly dump the most money into the CPU out of those three choices. Typically, I believe your max CPU options peaks sooner than for RAM or Video Cards; sockets change, and soon after it becomes difficult to find CPUs for that socket you have. AGP lasted how long? And RAM is just easy to upgrade or add more later.

The 6600 is almost $100 more then the 6400, the vid card he quoted at $440.  Neither seem necessary unless you are trying to avoid buying a new computer in 3 years, which is a fool's game imho.  I always end up with a new mobo/cpu every 3-4 years, no matter what I intended.  Also usually by then I need to pass down older comps to family members or parts are dying on me.  For video cards I tend to prefer to spend $200-250 about every 2-3 years.

So from my prior experiences, getting the 4gigs of ram now, will provide the most bang:buck over the 3-4 life of the rig.  But people are absolutely right when they say, putting in the other two gigs can be done whenever with no hassle.  My thinking probably makes more sense if you make the limited income I make and live in the stupidly expensive city I live in.