f13.net

The european launch of the PS3 will be with a new hardware revision of the console.

Biggest change: the hardware chip curently used for emulation of PS2 titles will be scrapped and sony will emulate all PS2 titles in software.

See sony's new press release (http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/release/pdf/070223e.pdf)

Some gems from the text:

"It also
embodies a new combination of hardware and software emulation which will enable
PS3 to be compatible with a broad range of original PlayStation® (PS) titles and a
limited range of PlayStation®2 (PS2) titles."

and

"PS3 is first and foremost a system that excels in playing games specifically
designed to exploit the power and potential of the PS3 system."

and

"Rather than concentrate on PS2 backwards
compatibility, in the future, company resources will be increasingly focused on
developing new games and entertainment features exclusively for PS3, truly taking
advantage of this exciting technology"

Later in the year american and japanese PS3s will also be changed to the new hardware revision.

compatibility with PS2 titles not currently suported will be achieved by way of firmware upgrades.

According to business insiders this will lower the production cost of each PS3 by as much as 40 dollars.

So the european PS 3 costs 30% more than the US or japanese version but we get less than them. Fuck you sony.

Earlier discussion. (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=8671.msg276071#msg276071)

So they are removing the EE then? I was under the impression that it didn't cost that much (anymore).

If so, that sucks. Won't be any better compatibility as the 360 has with the Xbox1 it seems. More likely worse, considering those 360/VPC guys have been working on it for quite awhile now.

Nah. The PS3 has more than enough power to emulate the entire PS2 library. Pretty sure it'll take less than a year to cover nearly the entire library. If an independent group can make a PS2 emulator for PC that's nearly full speed on FFXII on a modern computer, then Sony can make a perfect emulator for the PS3.

That said, man am I glad I got a PS3 from the first batch. Thing has been - most likely - the most flawless launch system ever. Odd considering it's a Sony. I've had my Wii crash and freak out more than my PS2s did. And my Xbox did crash a few times on certain games. But the PS3, not a freakin hitch.

Even with the hardware flaws and such, I've always been a big fan of the PS1 and 2. The new one though, I'm just not turned on by their arrogance, stupidity and price. I really think when I get my next console it'll be a 360. PS2/Box/GC still does the job for the moment though, and the Wii is different enough to get a thumbs up as well.

It's not arrogance and stupidity that jacks up the price, it's Blu-Ray.

Then again, you could say it is arrogance and stupidity for them not just trying to sell a game console. I could understand that. But in the longterm, I think what they did was a good choice. For both games and HD in general.

I'm sure the Sony execs will say the same thing....right up until they get fired from their jobs.

This actually *is* a step forward if they do it right.  PS3 should have more than enough CPU power to fully emulate PS2, and in emulation they actually have more options for post-processing the PS2 output.  I wouldn't be surprised if PS2 content on non-ps2-hardware PS3s ends up looking better in the long run (assuming sony puts even a little effort into this).  It may also make it easier to fix the bluetooth handoff issue (where you have to push the PS button on the controller to re-pair it every time you switch to/from PS2 emulation mode.

- Q

Fired? That would be going a little too far. These concepts were already being fleshed out by the time the PS2 was released. It's a little too late for firing. Those "execs" have also done little before this except make Sony the leader in the console market. Nobody is firing them any time soon.

It's also a win-win situation for Sony anyways. They'll win the HD disc format war because of this machine -- even if they sold a small fraction of the PS3's as they did the PS2, and utterly failed as a gaming machine (which they won't, and don't).

Hmm, what else to say to this?

Games are going to have to move to a high def disc format anyways. HAVE TO. As in, "not optional".

It has already sold more machines than the 360 and the PS2 in the same amount of time from their respective launch dates (not saying it'll pick up like those did, but still....). It's hardly the time for axing people.

[EDIT] I blame the New York Times.

I wasn't referring to blu-ray specifically, though honestly I don't give a shit at all about the latest sony proprietry format and I do resent their attempt to trojan-horse it via the console, since I'd rather just play games.

I was actually referring to the topic (I"m in Australia, you know, I'm part of "Europe") so as noted in the thread we're getting extra-fucked on the price, losing the hardware emulation, and also I've always thought that the "no-memory-stick slot unless you go PREMIUM" is both arrogant and stupid.

So yeah, fuck 'em.

You sure about that?  Even taking the European numbers away from the 360, that doesn't quite seem right from the numbers I've seen.

Hey, you guys decided to go with the non-American accent, you suffer for your decision.   :-D   As it is, Canadians had better watch this "aboot" bullshit or they'll find they're part of Europe also.

No it hasn't. It hasn't come close to the PS2 - reference (http://www.vgcharts.org/). It's ok to get your PS3 freak on, but please to do some factchecking. Neither in Americas nor Japan has the PS3 sold more than the PS2 in their respective launch timeframes. Please cite credible reference that says otherwise. And it's barely outsold the 360  (http://www.vgcharts.org/aconscomps.php?name1=PS3&name2=X360&type=0&align=0)in comparable launch to launch timeframes.

Has nothing to do with me getting "PS3 freak on". Time and again, you vastly overestimate how freaky I really am. Please don't go there (besides, comparing the PS2 and PS3 is hardly the best way of telling whether I'm a freak or not. I like the PS2 considerably more).

It just was an honest mistake. I went by a two month spread comparing it to the PS2, instead of a 3 month one (since that was the last time I checked).

The numbers there are:

PS3 - 760,000 units
PS2 - 667,500 units

A three month spread is:

PS3 - 1,035,500 units
PS2 - 1,309,750 units


So, my bad. :)

And either way, nobody needs to get fired just yet. It's just business as usual. That was the only point.


From the same chart (3 months):

PS3 - 1,035,500 units
X360 - 929,750 units

Gotcha. I understand. I don't like any of those things either.

As for Blu-Ray, I guess my only point is that one has to want it's benefits in order to get a PS3. There's no other way around it. They can not just look at it like their old game console, unfortunately. This is what irritates me when people bitch about price. Component wise, it's very much worth what you're paying for. Whether someone even wants those components is another story though - and that has nothing to do with price. That's just simple desirability, and not even being in the target market.

I was teasing about your freak-on, but at the same time I don't know how you missed all the press. Whatever though.

Oh, I'm just sensitive about that. :-P Schild actually wants me to fly my freak flag, you say I'm sucking cock --- But I'm really not anything like either of you think. I'm not completely objective, of course, but I don't even want to be teased like that.

Why are you guys complaining? You pay more for less functionality - sounds like a steal.

And no, this is not a good thing. First, trying to do PS2 emulation in software directly contradicts their press release which says they want to spend less resources on backwards compatibility. Getting a PS2 emulator to work properly is going to take a lot of time and energy, and require tweaks for individual games. Look at the 360, they still can't emulate all the Xbox games and have now given up AFAIK.

Second, if you leave the EE in you still have the option of using software emulation. Removing a component does not give you any options you didn't already have.

It is a purely cost-cotting maneuver, your system now comes with less functionality than it did before. Silly to pretend otherwise.

There wasn't really any hope for software emulation before though. If the chip costs $40 and they've sold ~1 mill units so far, then that means $40 000 000 to spend on PS2 software emulation. Not that they will spend anything in that region on it, but there's hobbyist emulators out there that can do pretty decent PS2 emulation.

The big question of course is, will they get away with poor backward compability? Personaly I have a pretty decent library of PS2 games and I'm not going to buy a PS3 before I know the majority of those function properly.

They aren't going to spend the money they are saving on an emulator, they are just going to save it. People have different expectations of hobby PC emulators and the emulators built into systems. Look at people complaining about MK64 how the ghost save on the memory card thingy doesn't work.

When people put a GC disc into their Wii or a PS2 disc into their PS3 they are expecting to play the original game, exactly. "Good enough" isn't really good enough.

I don't think this is a dealbreaker, but personally it means that if I do get a PS3 it will be further down the road. Right now there are more PS2 games I want to play than PS3 ones. I have a Dreamcast, Gamecube and PS2 hooked up to my TV and a N64 and an XBox sitting in the closet. I don't need yet another system.

I think we are at the stage where newer isn't always better. We've been at that stage for a while, but it took people a while to catch on. There are plenty of PS2 games I want to play like GOW2, Ico and Shadow of the Colossus, Silent Hill 2 & 3 (again), etc. Just like on the GC I would still like to play Fire Emblem, Killer 7 and Viewtiful Joe.

Just last night I had friends over and we played all of the systems I have hooked up. Hell last month my friends and I played NBA for the SNES! For someone like me who enjoys old games another new system that isn't backwards compatible is kind of annoying.

I'm not a retro gamer, I just like old games too. I will probably end up getting a PS3 but not until well down the road.

I'm enjoying the PS3, but I think they are really stretching it thin as far as appealing to the masses right now.

I have no doubt that there will be enough compelling games that will make it stand on it's own (with or without good PS2 backwards compatibility) -- I think it'll even have a great library just by year's end -- but this is just another in a long line of things that adds to it's barrier to entry.

1) You pretty much need an HDTV
2) The price point pretty much shuts out anyone who isn't a kid -- or his or her parents
3) Anyone who doesn't have a lot of disposable income
4) Anyone who might have that disposable income, but isn't hardcore enough about games or AV to spend it

Next to those 4 points, they now add in 5) anyone who only wants to play new games (not as damning as the other 4, but still, they don't need this).

Basically, the target market right now is late 20-ish unmarried gamers and av enthusiasts like myself (supposedly, that IS the actual gaming market these days, but I'm not entirely convinced).


There's no doubt that they can sell more PS2 hardware though (and PSP's for that matter). Perhaps that's the point behind all of this. To keep the PS2 a major player in the market? Then 3 or 4 years down the line, more average Joes will start purchasing the PS3? Kind of risky to push them away so early on (the companies that tried it before lost their asses), but I guess time will tell whether it was a safe choice.

[edit] revised

That would be a pretty bad plan, as 3rd party games could dry up really quick if hardware sales don't catch up to the 360 and Wii.  Sony needs to start looking 3 or 4 months down the line right now, not 3 or 4 years

On the other hand, they're not doing anything different than the 360 (bc wise).

Hell, you could say they're in even in a better position than Microsoft. One new gen console, with good looking games on the way. One massively popular last gen console that still sells extremely well. And a modestly successful handheld. It's a three prong attack.

So why am I not thrilled?  :-D

Honestly, at the rate Wiis are being pushed to the market place, and the 360 slowdown in the face of 2 new consoles (inevitable, even if it is the strongest console right now in terms of games), I wouldn't be surprised if for at least one month - if not 3 - the PS2 becomes the best selling console in America. I wager the guaranteed price drop to $99 + the double whammy of Persona for the hardcore folks, a handful of unannounced NISA titles, and God of War 2 along with ANOTHER Madden well.

Yea.

Everything is competing with the PS2 except the PS3. It's supplementary. And possibly brilliant. Maybe Sony does have a brain left.

Doubtful though.

As best I can tell from the tidbits I've gathered from a couple friends who actually work at Sony on PS3 and just general trends for these things, they've had the software emulation support in the works for a long time but it wasn't ready in time for launch and the physical EE+GS solution was a placeholder that's always been intended to be cost-reduced out.

That said, we won't know until they start shipping this next generation of PS3 just what the state of software emulation is.  Based on Sony's PSX emulation on PSP though, I wouldn't be surprised if they did a pretty good job at it.

-Q

The PS and the PS2 both have MIPS CPUs though.

Sure sure -- of course emulating the CPU isn't generally the hard part compared to emulating all the other funky hardware correctly.  The PS3 really should be fast enough to pull it off though.  I'm curious to see how well it ends up working.

-Q

I like how Q's glass is half-full.  That's what I like to hear.  I'd like to think Sony is serious about the BC, and really they seem to be so far.  Need to see how that software emu works out in practice, of course.  They have already fixed a nasty PS2 display problem via fw update, so I have no reason to doubt they are taking BC seriously.  What they are not taking seriously, as usual, is Europe.

So far Sony has made a good impression on me with PS3 -- I'm not certain I agree that blueray is worth the higher price they're stuck with, but overall the system is pretty nice.  The technology is good.  It's not nearly as complex as the PS2's *5* different processors and it has a hell of a lot more memory and general computing power to throw around.  There's still plenty of opportunity for them to screw up, but I'm not buying into the doomsaying just yet.

- Q

That entire press release seems to suggest otherwise.

So serious they removed it.

I read today that Europeans get to pay for GT HD.  That sucks.  I got it for free and I still feel cheated.

Weird. We're getting conflicting reports then (link (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=73530)):


Free GTHD, and they're even getting a Tekken a little cheaper.

I have since read that PS3 launch titles such as Resistance will be more like ₤39.99, so I'm sure you are right.

So, they're already promising BC for over a thousand titles at the Euro launch. Link (http://threespeech.com/blog/?p=301)

I guess I'll be more positive about this. Considering that they actually haven't screwed up too badly with promised features and fixes yet.

The PS1 emulator for the PSP is so amazing that I would wager that the software emulation will eventually result in better quality gaming than actual PS2 hardware. Sony hath proven me that even moreso than Microsoft or Nintendo, they are absolute masters of software emulation and backwards compatibility.

Total numbers are less important than whether or not the most popular European titles are supported.

Yeah, but a thousand titles already beats the fuck out of the 360's BC (a thousand titles would be close to 50% in NA. Not sure about PAL PS2 titles). I'm curious if that will actually be the case.

Not saying it's cool as including the EE though. I'm not a fool.

[EDIT] Wait a second, I was wrong. That's almost 50% of PAL games (http://www.scei.co.jp/corporate/data/bizdatatitle_e.html) (2,451). Didn't realize they had more than the US (1,375).


On a sidenote: Over 600 PSP titles in Japan? Geez...

Given the hard part of emulation is not the CPU/instruction set, but getting all the associated hardware calls/emulation right, for sound/graphics etc... It would seem to me that the PS3 could just assign a sub-processor the task of being a PS2/1 chip.  "Hi, you're now a sound chip, here's how to act like one.".  Rather than hitting the performance wall of emulating all those things on a single CPU, you've got several to pick up the load.

Including the previous hardware inside the box has been Nintendo's secret to success for some time now.  My GBA has the parts to both the GBA and a GBColor inside, which is how it understands both.  Part of why the DS doesn't do GB games that predate the GBA, as there wasn't room in the case for 3 pieces of hardware, as the DS and GBA hardware are both non-trivial in size, compared to the GBC hardware.  Miniaturization is amazing, given my old-school Gameboy is bigger than the GBA, which has a bigger screen, and 2 more powerful gaming machines inside the case.

--
Alkiera

I don't see why companies doesn't go with software emulation right of the bat with their consoles. I mean if they expect their consoles to be somewhat successful it has to be the most cost effective and also grant the possibility of software update and game enhancement.

Because software emulation is harder. Nothing is easier than including the original chipset.

Yea sure, but is it more profitable? Which I guess is the key factor.

Long term? Yea, no question.

Software emulation in theory only costs the price of the emulator development, whereas hardware emulation has a cost with each system you sell.

The reality is a bit trickier because a lot of complex emulators need special code to work with certain games. A true 100% perfect emulator should just work with everything but if you look at the 360 for example they had to do special work for each game they wanted to support.

Even then you are doing work per unique title and the up-front emulator work, not paying for every unit you sell. So in the end it may be cheaper - it also depends a lot on the cost of the hardware.

Assuming Sony believes (hopes?) they'll eventually ship 100 million+ PS3s, like they did with the PS2, moving to software emulation is pretty compelling unless the upfront (and ongoing) engineering cost is utterly insane.  The EE+GS chip is a pretty big chunk of silicon, and IIRC also needs external memory of its own (it certainly can't share the main ram with the PPC/Cell core).  I'd expect removing this represents a pretty measurable cost savings per-unit.

-Q

I just bought a second PS2. One of the newer, slimline ones. Now I just need to get it chipped, so it can play my Japanese and US games. (Although I've never had an issue with my existing machine, I find it's nice to have a backup unit of hardware as insurance for my games collection, especially in light of needing it able to play my imports.)

Go Me!


But, yeah. Next will likely be a 360, probably for Christmas, I guess. Or just after, depending on how the retail war on the hardware seems to be going.

Go Sony!

I would be very surprised if Sony hadn't developed a virtual machine for the PS-2 hardware during development for testing and debug purposes.  Theoretically they should just have to port that over to running on the cell and have a fully functional 100% accurate emulator.

The question is more along the lines of if the PS-3 can actually run the virtual machine reasonably well enough to provide an acceptable gaming experience, as it was almost certainly originally designed to run on some multi-million dollar hardware platform.

http://www.itnews.com.au/newsstory.aspx?CIaNID=47798

That's rediculous. Have the balls to either ship with the chip, or not ship until the software is ready to go. You can't just pull shit out of the console and promise to patch it in at a later date.

To be fair, that article makes no mention of whether or not their PS3 is running off the same version firmware that will be available come the European launch.

That's so sad, it's retarded. I love(d) my PS2, but every new news story about rthe PS3 makes me even less interested in the bloody thing...

That is unfortunate. At this rate, BC might not be any better than the 360's. If someone like me was living outside NA or Japan, I'd be annoyed, since the PS3 was also meant to replace my broken PS2.

But in the end, I will say that your main interest in the PS3 should be PS3 and Blu-Ray titles. That's what you'd really be paying for, and no matter how good this or that PS2 game is, you're going to be on the search for more PS3 titles once you get spoiled with a good one.

Also, in that respect, it's not on a bad track record. VF5, F1, Motorstorm, and Resistance are all pretty fun. Blu-Ray is what it is.  Secondly, the machines have seemed to be solid and stable across the board. There are very few horror stories with the hardware so far. So not everything is bad news like you think.

Just my two cents. Even without the PS2 compatibility, I still wouldn't feel ripped off. Just in the short amount of time it's been out, it could redeem itself on those issues alone.

I'm not in the least bit worried. Any problems will get fixed in an incredibly timely matter.

I'll wait here then. I have plenty of PS2 and other games still to play, and a 360 and titles to buy come Christmas. PS3 can wait a couple of years.

That's the issue, though.  Sony wants people to buy the PS3, but all of the must-have games are PS2 games.  I can say that I would not have bought God of War II yet if the PS3 BC was still as shitty as it was before mid-January.  Until they can get a solid PS3 library out there, they have to make do with what they have.  This means must-have-for-all games like God of War II and Final Fantasy XII as well as various other must-have-for-some games like Devil Summoner.  It is absolutely in Sony's best interest to have good BC, however let's not forget that the console industry hates PAL territories.

This is mostly what's pissing me off. It's not like they are releasing the PS3 without BC. It did have good BC, in the NTSC territories. They took it out for the PAL release and they have not given us a suitable replacement yet. It's not acceptable that they are going to patch it in later, because the only reason they need to patch it in is because they decided the PAL territories could do without a chip.

http://faq.eu.playstation.com/bc (http://faq.eu.playstation.com/bc) lists the backwards compatibility of the new PS3s, along with great tips like, 'Gee, how's about you skip the cutscenes, 'cause they don't display right.'  Unimpressed.