f13.net

Gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6164659.html)

Catholic News (http://www.catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=22807) complete with popups

I'm pretty sure that buggering little kids + coercing them to keep silent about it is much worse than even the most tastless video game.

That being said, some games are bad for kids, yeah. That's what ratings are for.

Or more what the Pope said is game developers are evil.

So how many Hail Mary's is playing GTA worth?

Meh he's right about pandering murder4fun games to kids. I'm not sure he's entirely wrong about the kind of people producing overly violent games as having a shakey moral compass. However, I do know he's doing the typical religious institution crap of speaking in absolutes about society that have no base in scripture.

He's the freaking Pope.  He doesn't need a basis in scripture.

The irony, she is delicious. :-D

Just finished reading the complete version of what he spoke about for the 41st World Communications Day, in its entirety at the Vatican's website (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/communications/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20070124_41st-world-communications-day_en.html) (which is predicting the future and has the wrong date at the top).

The main part of his message was directed at media in general, and of course parents, and their responsibility to protect children.

I didn't say I disagreed either, just heard this blurb on the news terming video games and media that portray violence or sexuality as perversions and then wondered what the board community would think of being called pervs.

Anyways, most of these games AREN'T targetting children (or movies, or music, etc..). Someone should clue him in on the average age of gamers. Link (http://www.theesa.com/facts/top_10_facts.php)

I will say that I'd actually prefer more games that uphold positivity (not "religious" mind you.....I mean, Mario and Kirby are bubbly and positive, right? Or hell, even Star Trek games are positive). Not everything should revolve around blowing off people's limbs or ripping out the spinal cord of your opponents. But adults are adults. Adults are self guiding creatures. And the Catholic church (and evangelicals for that matter) pretty much has zero "moral" credibility to speak to the public about anything at this point (maintain your own house....then come back in 20 years. Maybe people will forget your douchebaggery by then).

He must have been pissed when I tried to whack him in M II:TW.

You guys are reading a hell of a lot into what he said.

He didn't say that all games are aimed at children and furthermore all games are evil.  He said essentially, games that are evil* are bad, and especially when they are aimed at children.


Interestingly, he doesn't say not to play them.  He says not to make them.  Presumably (if this communication were in a vacuum) you are free to play all you want once they're made.


*ie, promote evil as the Church sees it; to wit, trivialization of sexuality and anti-social behavior.

Religion is the bad kind of silly. Stop it, already.

Violent video games exist because there is a market for them.  It all goes back to the consumer.  As for kids playing them, I blame parents... whether they be the child's parents or the parents of the child that my child is sneaking over to the house to in order to play them. 

Video games (TV and dvd's) are entertainment, not babysitters. 

I'd say we're all pretty used to being called pReVert degernate scum.

I know I don't mind anymore.

Ho Ho!  :evil:

Way to contribute to the thread, hoss.  :roll:

Edit -- quotes are hard

ETA -- Just so I actually contribute and whatnot....I don't see the big deal.  The Pope (who is kind of a crap Pope) has said, "Hey, aiming violent games and shit at kids ain't cool.  Cut that out."  It's kind of hard to refute.  Kids are curious about games.  People with kids should probably keep an eye on what their kids do.  At the same time, people who aim that kind of shit at kids aren't doing anyone any good.  Meh.  I know games are a sacred cow and all, but I really don't see the big deal.  If you're not Catholic, why should it matter what the Pope says?  Do the Catholics have some kind of stranglehold on the games industry of which I'm unaware?

Regardless of whether the Church has issues (and it does), his point is valid.  People who make violent/sexual games AND market them to kids are shitty people.  See, part one of that statement needs part two to equal "shitty person."  So, yeah.  The knees can stop jerking.

I'm having a hard time thinking of one potentially "evil" or "corrupting" game that's targetted at kids though.

Even the kids games that some might consider excessively violent (say, the Ratchet and Clank series), by virtue of them have weapons and shooting, are still pretty innocent. It's very cartoony, in a Wile E Coyote way.

Sure, instilling in children the idea that beating on a bad guy with a Plasma Whip isn't exactly what St. Francis would do, but c'mon...It's not GTA or Soldier of Fortune, and those games were never meant for kids anyways.

Who gives a fuck what the pope says about anything?  Fuck him and his "quickly becoming strictly Third World" religion.

Well, meant for and marketed to are two different things.  I don't particularly think that they were marketed to kids but I can see how someone NOT a gamer would see it as such.  (Kids like games, violent games appeal to kids (not just video), all games are at the same store, ergo marketed to kids.)  Also, keep in mind that this dude is from Germany...and they have a bit of a hangup about violent games over there right now.  So this is also likely a cultural difference.  I just don't see the big newsflash, I guess.  He's an old dude saying that something he's not entirely informed about is uncool.  He's partially right and partially off-base.  Whether he's the Pope or a politician or a crazy old coot on his front porch shouldn't matter all that much, IMO.

I think he falls under the category of all three  :-D.

I'd tend to agree, but I've been non-thrilled with this guy since he was chosen to replace JPII, who was rather kickass, IMO.

I don't think he's Palpatine or anything, but yeah, JPII was much more....Hmm, what's the best word? Millenial? Progressive? Not completely out of touch? Heh.

I mean, he was an ex actor, and very well read. Just being in touch with the arts like that, no matter how insignificant, says something. And he wasn't archaic about it either. Like the Dalai Lama, supposedly he was a big fan of cinema and Hollywood too.

Actually he doesn't say that at all. From the vatican's website (also here, but I checked the website to be sure):


You will notice that the bold part added by myself (EDIT: as in, the bold was added by me, the actual words were already there) is in addition to the statement of perversion. The "fact" that they are "directed at children and adolescents" only adds to the perversion. He also didn't specify marketing, just that they are "directed". I'd like to see him come up with a so called perverted game that is, you know, actually directed at kids. I know when I was beating hookers to death with a baseball bat in GTA3 my character wasn't an 8 year old (but I couldn't sleep with them until GTA:SA, because sleeping with a hooker and then killing her for the cash is a SEX CRIME and thus not allowed in Australia... or was, whatever, I can't be expected to understand stupidity).

Oh wow.  You caught me.  A man whose job it is to teach tolerance, love and peace has a problem with violence and sex being sold as entertianment.  Stop ye olde presses.

Newsflash, he even hates it more when it's directed at kids and adolescents.  Adolescents, you know, teens....the kind of people who play console games a ton.  Wow.  Shocker.

This is such non-news I don't even know why it got its own thread.

I actually had a laugh when I first heard the newsperson say behind me the Pope saying things about perversion. This of course was the message that was appropriate, from the Pope celebrating Communications Day in Europe, but what is the shocker and what makes it news is that the purile, ignorant religous types already have a confused and bias view of video gaming.

I didn't think the Pope calling it a perversion was incorrect, in fact some of the games I enjoy like FPS shooters and paganistic magic RPGs (+MMOs) are not proper for kids, but do I feel unclean or perverted for enjoying them (or R rated movies). Answer is HELLS NO!

Creating the games that fall into the category of violent or sexual may cross an imaginary line, but are they a perversion if say.. I am recreating history battling in Call of Duty 2 on the front lines of an actual violent event of our history? (or like in WayAbvPar's response about Medievil 2 Total War, and killing the Pope) Games are already having enough bad press, where the ratings and parental responsibility are what should be discussed.

So the Pope saying this to me is funny, especially when you become an observer of religion from the outside. Belief is where religion finds it's begining, and believing the media images one views(enjoys?) and not being able to seperate oneself from them, is where possibly it is a perversion. Do I need to ask forgiveness of anyone, or myself for viewing/enjoying them? I don't think so, because I'm a responsible adult.


HAHAHA Why does Vanguard deserve 3 threads (one of them with some 30 pages)?? I really think you should've kept with your original sentiment about if you're not posting something to contribute to the discussion, but that would make sense (or something). Honestly, I debated whether this should've been possibly in "Politics", but other than that, I think it's totally relevant, and freedom + speech or something.

The pope is discussing them -- why aren't you?


There are basically two main thrusts to his statement.  The first is that the people who are responsible for raising children (parents, with assistance from school and church) should keep an eye on what they're watching and playing.  The second is that the people who produce media should try to cut back a bit on glorifying sex and violence, especially if that media is likely to be picked up by children.  Many of us probably disgree with the second part of his statement, or at least view it with a concerned/skeptical eye, but is the first part that objectionable?

Note also that he aims the statement about media production at media producers, NOT governments.  Which makes it okay with me.  I don't mind in the slightest if someone verbally encourages someone to produce less violent media (even if I do personally enjoy the violent media), as long as they aren't pushing for legislation against it.

(edit) Other things that set this statement apart from the usual anti-video-game rhetoric:
1) Video games are not being picked on to the exclusion of other types of media, like movies.
2) He is not saying that all video games are violent.
3) He is not saying that all video games are marketed exclusively at children.

Compare and contrast with, say, the usual Jack Thompson tirade.

When the tagline on the news ignores the obvious parental responsibility slant and only includes the single perversion of violent/sexual video games and movies, makes it a perversion of the Pope's message too. Perversion is everywhere!! UNCLEAN.

All of you who are reading this thread suffer from perversions. The intraweb R 3vil too! Ans Foosball is the debil.

Edited to clarify a pronoun and correct my perversions

That one made me chuckle. Kudos.

So, basically, you're off your meds again, eh?

The man wasn't even trying to dictate rules for Catholics let alone the world.  He was expressing an opinion.  The media chose to only report one part of his opinion.  No shocker there.  So who is a bigger asshat?  Him for saying it, or you for being so knee-jerk that you assumed the two-second sound bite was the entire statement?  Games are just another boogeyman, just like heavy metal was in the 80s.  Sooner or later they'll be replaced by something else for people to worry about.  That's why this is non-news. 

As to why Vanguard got three threads, I'd assume it's because people started them.  It doesn't really mean that they're necessary.

So now you want to contribute actual discussion to the thread you called not worthy of a thread? Make up you're fucking mind. And you called me psycho and off my meds over on Corpnews. Hypocrite lawyer much?

You should've just used Boog's tactic and said something about my missue of bias in my reply that I left on both forums for you.

Don't you have a dev to stalk?

Who would have thought a religious-toned post in the Gaming Forum would cause a flame war?

Shocked, I am.  :heartbreak:

The pope is hawt.

The headline says, "Pope decries video games, films that exalt violence, trivialize sexuality" not "The pope things moving pixels are the work of the devil."

I've been playing computer games all my life, and will probably continue to do so as long as I'm able to send the necessary nervous impulses to make this happen.

I've come to understand that sex and violence are just this: Dressing.  They don't make better games.  In terms of artistic impression, they're two very limited channels, nothing more.   

What good are they?  They seem to bring a lot of stigma down on my little obsession.  They might even promote wrongful thinking. 

No, I don't think I'll lose much sleep if games that "exalt violence" and "trivialize sexuality" are put under much heavier restrictions.

Game Violence -- It's equivalent to the pen when it touches paper for a writer. Or a finger when it touches a fret on a guitar. Anyone who takes it more seriously than that has problems that even 3 year olds have gotten past. It's not the games. Violence is just a means of interacting with the gameworld. Arguably, it's the most shallow means (I'd much prefer more Phoenix Wrights and Grim Fandangos in the gaming world), but it's not exhibiting violence so much as it just simple, easy to understand interactivity.

Sex -- Show me the sex games. There's not enough of them I tell you!

Oh, you mean Lara Croft's boobies? Big deal. Boobies are what makes the whole world go 'round. I, you, and the Pope wouldn't be here if there were no boobies. And depicting boobies is as old as civilization itself (http://www.livescience.com/history/060214_cave_art.html).

Sure, I wouldn't mind more Jades from Beyond Good and Evil, AI Feminazi SHODANS, Yunas, and Ms. Pacmans, but most game developers are basically still juvenile males (in mind, if not in body). Want to get rid of Lara Croft and DOA? Encourage more females to become game developers (or more sensitive males). It's pretty simple. Spouting off about "evil" and "OMG the children!" isn't going to do much good though.

Except that when it comes to the Crazy Christian Minoritys (you know, the ones with the loudest screams, and the greatest capability for harm) the Pope's opinion is "THE WORD OF GOD".

Except not, since the majority of the so-called crazy Christians aren't Catholic.

And even then the Pope's opinions are only "the word of God" if they line up with teh crazy's opinions. See how many of them would tow that same line if the Pope decided gaeity was cool and women should be allowed to be priests.

Unless you believe in different make-believe. Then we kill you all unless you convert! Or maybe just bask in the glow of knowing we will go to the happy magical place while you burn and suffer for all eternity. Tolerance, love and peace my ass. The very core of the religion is exclusionist, borne from an even more exclusionist religion so they could encompass non-jews.

Yeah, sorry I can't contribute to such a stupid thread. It's what I do. Luckily I was dunked in the magic pond.

EDIT -- Bah, no coffee = overreacting.  It seems sad that you get so up in arms about people's beliefs.  Seriously though, I guess I just don't get why it's necessary to vent bile on the idea that some people believe stuff that you don't believe.  I could give a rat's ass what others believe...so long as they don't vent it in a shitty way.  Heck, it was all I could do going to college in the Bible Belt to not flip out on the ridiculous fundies that tried to hand out food wrapped in tracts on the strip on a Saturday night.  It wasn't that they were trying to spread a message, it was that they would try to walk up to your car and bother you while you were, you  know, trying to drive and not run down pedestrians.

I never said the Pope did a GOOD job, just what his job is supposed to be.  Moreover, there hasn't been a crusade in hundreds of years, so that's a bit of a canard these days, bud. 

I liked the first version better :)

I didn't.   :-P

Jeebus told me to change it.

Unless you are an Unitarian Universalist in which case you think everybody's going to Heaven! Whoopie!

(http://www.catholicpressphoto.com/servizi/2005-12-21-udienza/images/thumbs/DSC_3186.jpg)

(http://www.nbc10.com/2006/0906/9795508_240X180.jpg)

(http://www.catholicpressphoto.com/servizi/2005-12-21-udienza/images/thumbs/DSC_3145.jpg)

When did the Vatican get a rodeo?

When the Boy Scouts came through.

FIFY.   :-D

Well played, sir.

The majority of the so-called crazy Christians believe that the Pope (not the person so much as the institution) is evil incarnate.  Maybe if the Pope says video games are bad, the fundies will decide they're good!

(edit) Obligatory Jack Chick link. (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp)

I'm guessing if I could speak directly to God with lovely conversational responses, I'd probably ask about things other than the current state of electronic entertainment.

If that sounds sarcastic, it is. Religious authority is between you and God. Don't let someone else take that away from you in the guise of salvation.

PS - I hate these threads.

In light of this I've decided to declare the pope evil.

This thread has proved useful. I no longer think CmdrSlack is an idiot.

The rest of you though. Aiee.

Hmm? So you go around here thinking everyone is an idiot by default? Everyone starts at negative numbers, and Slack has the honor of being a "0" now?

That's not necessarily a bad starting point. Even at negative numbers, most of us will have the unwashed masses beat hands down.

I am completely open to the possibility that the widespread commodification of trivial sex and semi-sanitized violence in media I have consumed since infancy have made me a much different, and quite possibly worse, person than I would have been otherwise.  I don't really find that possibility personally threatening or intellectually out-of-bounds.  It may not be true, but it is at least plausible.

The whole "I am an adult and therefore am completely unaffected by anything that I recognize to be fantasy" line is premised on a naive psychological libertarianism that is incompatible with the underpinnings of an essentially communitarian religion like Catholicism, so he is hardly being inconsistent. 

And yet, we see less appalling acts of violence than we did two or three hundred years ago. Our executions are highly sanitized, and more importantly, not met with public cheering. The French Revolution alone is something completely alien to behavior in the modern western world. People don't DUEL anymore. We don't sell and enslave other human beings. Etc..

I'd take the average Die Hard watching American over one of those crazy fucks any day. If the media is doing something bad to people, then it still isn't doing as bad as whatever the fuck those people were drinking.