f13.net

Being new to the community, I wasn't sure if this was the most appropriate place to engage in discourse about community relations and marketing. Nonetheless, I will value any insight and feedback provided. Thank you!

Edit 1: That said, I should also ask you, "What is community relations to you?"
Edit 2: Removed article because apparently posting links to your blog is a no-no. Sorry.

I think you're off base. 'Community Relations' doesn't say 'word of mouth marketing' to me. Word of mouth marketing might be an effect of good community relations but it isn't the definition. I'd say community relations is the interface between users (the community) and developers (the organization) in an MMOG context. Community relation reps filter and translate the data between the two. Depending on how it is managed it can make your organization look good or bad which leads to good or bad word of mouth marketing out along the social network.


Once you have X amount of money you run out of things to spend it on. What might seem like truck loads of cash to you probably isn't truck loads of cash to the person making the donation. And the wealthy individuals usually do expect a return on their investment except that the return is measured in social capital instead of cash.

According to your "company" link, you do disruptive marketing. Whatever that hip phrase means, I have no clue. Suffice it to say, there's a difference between PR and community relations. And given your post, I don't even need to read the article to know that you're confusing the two. No article on CR should involve marketing of any sort. Community relations targets an existing community and the end "want" is retention of that community. Marketing is gaining new customers or winning back old ones.

Also, public relations is different from Community Relations and Marketing - THOUGH, PR can involve CR and marketing. CR and Marketing however should remain independent of eachother.

Edit: If that doesn't make sense, whatever, I downed a shitload of hot sake at dinner.

I completely agree! Community relations professionals are definitely facilitators, people who help the community and developers communicate better with each other. I think what I wrote was that effective community relations is characterized (not defined) by generating word-of-mouth feedback within the social networks of opinion leaders for a product, service, or solution. This feedback serves the purpose of analyzing the market for insights into consumer behavior and the purpose of passing along messages that advance positive perceptions of the organization. I probably wasn't clear enough though.

We should, however, distinguish between community relations (CR) and community management (CM). Community relations is a form of public relations that focuses on a single category of stakeholder, community and its leaders, to ensure that communication between other members and developers is neither disrupted nor corrupted. Community management, in my opinion, is concerned with reducing risks to retaining or growing the community base, such as by installing moderators to filter content considered inappropriate to this category of stakeholder.

This topic is too masturbatory, imo. As in, it's an argument over syntax. Community management is but a tiny subsection of community relations.

I think I'd know.

The marketing function in most companies, which are small businesses, is primarily performed by the sales force. This leads to thinking of marketing as a sales activity that exists only to generate and qualify leads for the sales force. In larger firms, however, the marketing function is separate from the sales function, and is strategic in nature. Instead of focusing on the Four Ps (Product, Pricing, Promotion, and Place), strategic marketing sets its beady eyes on segmentation, targeting, and positioning. Since I'm in the business of branding, I'm really not concerned with the sales end of marketing; I'm talking about strategic marketing, which plays a significant role in the ability of public relations (i.e., community relations) initiatives to connect with consumers, develop brand loyalty, and effect market growth.

I agree with you. I was hoping we could shift to discussing CR problems that people normally encounter, and how these problems could be solved or better solved.

I think that CR is part of MMOG marketing - it should form a core part of tools that are used to keep customers satisfied. I keep meaning to do a study that applies Hirschman's Exit, Voice and Loyalty theories to MMOGs (in short, having a community voice can build loyalty and reduce exit from the entity at hand, among other things). If CR can do that - provide feedback channels that help satisfy clients / solve problems, keep players involved where they may otherwise have quit - then it certainly falls into the area of marketing methods.

CR could probably be defined as any situation where the customer and the company meet, be it in-game or ex-game. In-game, it's dealing with petitions, helping players, running events and even just being there in-game to be seen at times. Ex-game, it's forums management, competitions, metagame information, providing player feedback to devs, fansite management / interaction and other other such activity.

Thus far, I don't think many (if any) companies really get CR "right". They may be strong in some areas but are weak in others. When it's realised that CR is something that can actually make a company money by reducing overheads (alternatively: the market matures so that few "new" players are available), I believe more attention will be paid to it.

What is cause marketing that isn't normal policking? Different terms, but largely similar agendas built upon similar motivators. CR kicks things off, CM either maintains or grows.

What was it that you were seeking to talk about though? Bad CR as it applies to MMOG (based on this appearing in this particularly sub-forum)? Good or bad cause marketing? Not sure what the conversation is here.

So, other than this company you both had about a year doing marketing in the real word?

Why do I get the feeling that this is all BS?  Why does disruptive marketing sound like message board trolling to my jaded ears?

Who is it you are working for or are you just trying to get your 'brand' out there?  Also, stealing the logo and name from an eight year old software game isn't going to score you any points for creative ability with people looking to hire you for your creative abilities.

In short, why isn't this in the Den where it can be mocked properly?

Screenshots of naked clients or they don't exist?

Edit:  this should of been a question.  It changes the meaning.  Le sigh.   :|

Morgan's for real Murgos.

RE: The topic... my reflex thought is "What isn't community relations?" It's a really catch all aspect of these gaming companies. The CM's primary role is to be that public interface between development and players because it helps ensure that communication is being effective and heard both ways, but that's definitely not where it ends. A good CM has to watch out for everything going out to the players (and prospective players) to make sure that it's honest, accurate, and will resonate with the community that is out there.

They are almost 'responsible for everything' and 'in control of nothing'  :-o That's a bit of an overstatement, but when anything goes down in/about/around a game and it's community, the CM is on the front line. So everything that happens, from the smallest and most innocent developer post to actual game design and future patch content, is on the CM's plate. They don't dictate future patch content, but they'd best know what's coming, and how the community is going to react. Throw in live events, fansite relations, forums moderation, and a whole lot of other interesting things, and you have a very big plate of things to mind over.

Then again, ask me in six months after I've been roasted a few times and I may have a better answer.  :mrgreen:

Where the hell have I been? When did Grimwell get hired by Sony?
And here I though I was pretty good at keeping up with these things.

Oh, and the CR guy is the guy that the devs throw under the bus known as official message boards, because they know that the people having fits on said boards only represent 2% of the player base.  :P

For real how?  Like, he trolls message boards for pay so he can perform 'disruptive marketing'?  No shit.

Anyone and everyone who tries to 'spin' and bias my perceptions is immediately under a cloud of suspicion.  That include's you Grim, what 4 years?  More? you have been trying to find a legit in to be a red name?  Great, now instead of pretending to be one of 'them' you are one of 'them' and I'm supposed to sign off on some trolls obscure world of BS (Fucking awful article btw) because you tell me he is legit?

You're doing a great job, keep up the good work.  Both of you.

Watch now as my heart breaks in fragile silence from your lack of love  :heartbreak:

I so desperately needed you.  :-(

I'm eagerly awaiting that study. I believe that marketers need to step down from the ladder and join the crowd. They need to join brand conversations as participants rather than oversee these dialogues as panel moderators. In so doing, they would earn credibility as people genuinely interested in the wants and needs of the people in the community. The results of such a study would have a tremendous impact on my approach to branding.

Those points where consumers interact with the brand (brand touchpoints) are what I'm interested in. Clearly, when there's nobody to represent the community, relations with the community suffers. When there are too many representatives, things just get confusing for everybody. (The Paradox of Choice) But when would you say that CR needs improvement? What principles would a community want their representation to uphold? Utilitarianism? Ethical egoism? What philosophy should guide CR activities?

Problem solved. Next!

:)

Just kidding. Basically though, I feel folks who want to espouse a brand must understand all interactions with that brand and its sub-parts, including the psychology of the person(s) doing so. There's ways to do this academically without losing yourself. You don't need to be addicted to something to build it. But you do need to understand it.

What I find trips up marketing folks a lot is this idea they can use consumer insights research as the sole input. That's valid as one source, but it's more reactive, something more useful in explaining why something became successful previously. It's not so hot at prediction. That I feel requires more lateral thinking. What are emerging trends across a number of different spaces? I use the iTunes/iPod example a lot.

There were MP3 players, online distribution services and client-side cataloging software before. But Apple offered a holistic solution that delivered the exact right thing at the exact right time. This won't last forever, but they won their money hats for a few years. The vision behind iTunes was not driven by marketing. That became an integral part only later.

And Murgos, what's your beef?

I used to work in marketing and yes, this is for real.

In general, there is nothing that can be said in incomprehensible jargon that could not be said just as well in plain English. Exceptions might include nuclear physics, but not marketing. This gobbledygook is not a sign of intelligence or knowledge, it's a sign of an inability to use the English language properly.

But this is how marketing people speak. The people responsible for communicating - especially if you include public relations and advertising as part of marketing - are usually the ones least able to do it in any business. An agency or consultancy which specialises in marketing is usually even worse than an in-house department.

Don't take it personally Morgan. I'm criticising the entire profession, not you.

I know I'd be better off ignoring this thread, but it brings back so many bad memories . . .

His business is to disrupt communities such as this one to create positive marketing for a corporate client.  He is the king mole of the moles.  Him or people in his pay almost certainly have posted to these boards under the guise of fellow gaming enthusiasts except that they aren't spreading their own heartfelt opinion but rather one they were payed to endorse.

A lot of the reason this is a community I hang around in is because people here go, "have you played X?  X is a great fucking game you really ought to check it out." and I can trust that.  People like this schmuck Morgan and the people who hire him like Grimwell and Sony are leveraging that strength we have all put time and effort to build into this community to make a quick buck.

That's my beef.

If he want's to interact with this crowd with his name in red text and a declared affiliation so we can identify his bias as such and factor that into our conversations that's one thing but to come in here as 'one of us' and use our trust to 'disrupt communities' well, fuck him and his fancy horse.

Ok, I get ya. Morgan sorta comes outta nowhere with a semi-suspicious post, conveniently timed with Grimwell going big time/selling out, depending on the point of view.

Personally, I can vouch for Morgan, from conversations we've had over the last two years, mostly at Grimwell's forums, in their heyday (I'm embarassed by my own post count over there ;) ). He wants to learn like the rest of us. He's just asking different questions.

Now, I don't expect my vouch to mean dick, and maybe it casts suspicion on me because this comes suspicously close to when I shut down my blog  :-D But I did want to mention it anyway. There's people I won't go to bat for because I'm suspicious of them. But I know Grimmy well, and I don't think Morgan's been playing me for two years ;)

Before we even go on. I really want to hear what the hell this Morgan guy actually does.

I consider anyone who gets any sort of job at all to be selling out.  You should all just flop around, like me.

Anyway, I kind of sort of mostly know who Morgan is and I blame God.

He mentions specifically and repeatedly focusing on and targeting leaders in a demographic to exploit the follower mindset and generate brand affiliation.

Schild got 48 pages of grief because he endorsed SWG's revamp and it turned out to be crap.  I believe that that was Schilds honest opinion at the time, we all know how gung-ho he is for teh new shiney.  This guy's business model is to take people like Schild (or you or me) and co-opt his status (i.e. buy his opinion) to generate income for a corporate client.  He may be here in this community at this time to try and discuss this phenomena openly and I certainly would rather have open honest discussion about the subject but I can't buy into the thought that it's not possibly one of the most reprehensable marketing activities I can think of.

The phrase 'Sell Out' has negative connotations for a reason.  The guy want's us to help him create better more effective sell outs.

Grim just jumped into the conversation at the wrong time, I have nothing against him.

I want his answer. I want to taste it.

eww.

Morgan's cool. A bit fond of big words for my style of writing, but he's been on my forums and whatnot. Further, he gave me a ride from the airport. Why's he here? Well I kinda shut down my forums and did suggest that this is once place where you can find good conversations, provided you have a thick skin. ;P

I'm not responding to you til I see his answer.

He does marketing research, no?

Hey, Get the fuck out of this thread.

Astroturfing is unethical and often illegal. I don't support, condone, or practice astroturfing. What I do support is the anti-astroturfing code of ethics (http://www.thenewpr.com/wiki/pmwiki.php?pagename=AntiAstroturfing.HomePage).

• "I will not fabricate a public concern by paying or coercing individuals to falsely act as concerned citizens. I will only seek to help give voice to those who already hold an existing concern and/or provide education to stakeholders that might be affected by a particular issue.
• When supporting grassroots efforts, I will ensure that I am transparent in all my actions and clearly and publicly state what actions I am taking and which organization or client I represent.
• I will never knowingly distort or falsify information to help my client/interest achieve a strategic/emotional advantage in a public debate.
• I will encourage all grassroots supporters to be open and honest in all of their communications, just as I will be open and honest in mine."

I appreciate that you see me as part of a larger organization, but in truth, my company is a small business (sole proprietorship) that consists of two people, two musicians. We don't currently have any clients in interactive entertainment. In the games industry, I worked in quality assurance at Sony Computer Entertainment America and Sony Online Entertainment on PS2 (NBA ShootOut 2006, SOCOM 3) and PSP (Field Commander, The Con, Untold Legends 2) titles. I was also the volunteer QA Manager at Wildfire Games (http://www.wildfiregames.com/0ad/) on 0 A.D. for a brief time until the team realized we didn't have enough resources for a comprehensive quality assurance program. I'm very much a gamer, but I'm a musician first (http://www.morganramsay.com/) and a scientist at heart.

I'm also a member of the International Game Developers Association (http://www.igda.org/) (IGDA), where I help run the San Diego chapter (http://www.igda-sandiego.org/); the San Diego Military Advisory Council (http://www.sdmac.org/) (SDMAC), where I just attend monthly breakfasts for now; and the Society of Digital Artists (http://www.cgsociety.org/) (CGS), where I'm organizing a leadership team to establish its San Diego chapter. I'm heavily involved with nonprofit organizations and activities, and I'm seriously interested in the common good. But there is that other side of me that's involved with branding. I thought my third-person biography (http://www.americanheretic.com/biography/) explained everything. I don't like talking about myself. I'd rather be talking about something far more interesting.

As Grimwell suggested, I'm here because he shut down his forums, which was a good place to go to engage in critical discussions about the business of games. I've participated in a number of business communities around the Web, but as palmer_eldritch said, the lexicon of business tends to hinder clear communication. I like straight talk, even if I'm sometimes guilty of the complete opposite, and that's why I posted here, to solicit usefully cynical commentary.

I strongly disapprove of financial incentives. From a discussion I had in a human resources management course, several of my classmates who were HRM professionals suggested that the workforce can be incentivized by monetary rewards to be more productive and loyal. I argued that these rewards actually create a mercenary environment in which members of this new mercenary force become more willing to pack their bags and leave for opportunities with higher rewards. (By the way, this type of environment is prevalent in many online games, by design.) Later, scientific research (http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2006/1116/3) (used to be a free article) proved my hypothesis. I argued that the challenge to HRM professionals who continue using financial incentives is to craft programs that transform teamwork into a personal achievement and therefore stimulate collaboration in the environment. This applies to community and its leaders too.

In other words, I'll never pay you good money for bad thoughts. Sorry. :)

Holy shit.

There's no answer in there.

Yes, I read fast.

Next time you're in San Diego, call me, and I'll treat you to lunch.

It all starts with a drink.

Damn straight.

And in most situations, you know. I'd be cool with that. But here is why I need some answers.

1. Not actively working in the games industry? How are you involved with (much less heading) the IGDA chapter down there?
2. Want to pimp your blog? Give me a reason why I should let that sort of behavior happen.

It's a brave new world forum. And as Grimwell said "provided you have a thick skin." Well, we're asking you to validate the first post in this thread. Or rather, I am. I know I'm not the only one who wants to understand though.

There are other ways to buy people than cash.  Some people can be bought with friendship and conversation (or perks or what have you, journalists often fall prey to the promise of access, it's still being bought), if you are doing it to sell an opinion you don't personally hold, you're scum.  It's simple, really, and there is a very visible broad line that marks the boundary of that behavior.  Cash in hand would be honest corruption, at least.

All the rest of your post said was that you don't have any game clients, atm.  Great.  Whatever that means. 

I've been described as the glue that keeps everyone together. I own the domain name, developed the job board, manage the chapter website and job board and mailing lists, drive (or at least, I try to drive) momentum to keep people focused on growing the chapter, network with groups outside the chapter to find mutually beneficial opportunities (e.g., Art Institute of California, San Diego Filmmakers (http://www.sdfilmmakers.org/)), set up partnerships with businesses who share our vision, collaborate with the leadership team (http://www.igda-sandiego.org/web/facts/leadership/) to organize professional development events and social mixers, take photos of social mixers, and basically serve as the public and media point of contact for the chapter.

I've also been trying to get more involved with our parent organization, IGDA, through various initiatives. I've worked on, and am still working on, proposals for Marketing and Community Relations Special Interest Groups. I've also proposed an international directory of the games industry as a new member incentive, and there's significant interest in making this happen. I managed the IGDA Wiki for awhile, but we decided to change its purpose from a publishing platform for encyclopedic information on games to just a place for Chapters and SIGs to put stuff they want to share with others.

That's entirely up to you and the community. If you guys (and gals?) wanted, I'd be happy to remove the link to my article and not post any more links to my websites or associations. If I had to come up with a reason for why you should let that "sort of behavior" happen, I'd say that I want to contribute to the discussions in this community, and that I hope to eventually become accepted as a member rather than as a "schmuck" or a "troll". Grimwell's forums closed, so I pretty much need a place to hang out and shoot the shit whether on dastardly marketing topics or on the latest, greatest, and uberfun game, which I have yet to discover.

FWIW, I've also talked to Morgan a lot and know that he's not trying to be a jacktard.  Yeah, his writing is very jargony, but that doesn't make him a bad guy necessarily.  I told him that he'd probably get something like this if he posted here -- but for fuck's sake, don't hate him just because of what he wants to do for a living.  I've been wondering what the Time to Mole on this one was... :roll:

He's obviously not a mole. Moles can't be this transparent. He still hasn't explained what "disruptive marketing" is. More than that, there's a difference between being jargony and throwing out words to look smarter. And bullshitters can tell the difference. We have fuckin radars for it. I've no problem with him sticking around, attacking that sort of thing isn't up to me, it's the on the end user. But for someone in marketing, he didn't do a good job marketing himself and we called him on it. That first post was a real zinger. I couldn't help myself.

I mean, "What is community relations to me?" Comeon!

I agree with you. I have no qualms with rejecting prospective clients who I don't believe will genuinely adopt our strategic branding program, or who I don't believe have products, services, or solutions that merit our program. We do have a code of ethics, but more importantly, I have a sense of duty (http://www.americanheretic.com/2007/01/05/philosophy-of-thinking-and-doing/) to my family name that governs all of my decisions.

Thanks, I think...

The essence of the Heretic brand is "disruptive market-driving brands", not "disruptive marketing". A thorough explanation of what this means requires two articles, one of which is in draft form. Grimwell has reviewed it, and I'm still awaiting feedback from CmdrSlack. The first article is titled Introduction to Branding, defines branding and corrects common misconceptions, and should be an easy read for the layman. The second article will discuss how customer relationships can be strengthened through word-of-mouth marketing and strategic public relations. It will also discuss how these activities can differentiate and position products, services, and solutions into new markets of innovators and early adopters. As the name Heretic implies, we're concerned with disrupting the status quo, not dividing people.

The biggest problem I've found marketing folks have is being able to speak succinctly. I'm a deductive person by nature, only speaking inductively if I absolutely need to. We're not starved for bandwidth on the web, but many do crave an easier explanation. There is always one there, if the participants are willing to find it.

The dissertation I'm sure will be fine and all, but can you not break it down to 20 words or less? Are you talking ARGs?

Wow. Great thread. More esoteric than Hildegard of Bingen's panty size (if she had been born during the time of panties, of course).

No one is stupid enough to compete with 4orty2wo. He's not talking ARGs.

This is sort of like showing up on an MMORPG discussion forum where no one knows you, linking some article that doesn't fit with our understanding of MMORPG community relations, spewing a bunch of crap that is mostly unrelated to the games we play, and then giving us a lecture on marketing theory. The only reason you're not banned is most likely because we haven't finished laughing at you yet.

he seems nice, just so big talk words

Off topic comes to mind. You would probably have been better served in the game design/development forum if at all.

This has to be the oddest thread I've read in f13. Not in a good way, mind you, just in a strange, uncomfortable way. Sort of when you're at a friend's party, and some guy shows up that noone seems to know, but he's jovially chatting away. And then he starts handing out business cards.


Someone tell me how this isn't in-your-face viral marketing?

This thread needs a kitten. Sadly I don't save pictures of kittens on my hard drive. I did find this to be an acceptable substitute. I hope you agree.

(http://www.grimwell.com/staffimgs/grimwell/Hello_Vader.jpg)

(http://www.acc.umu.se/~zqad/cats/1167241077-1167231639-1167231311-wasted_kitty.jpg)

(http://glasgow.invocas.com/ext/lfld.jpg)


My Daughters considered view of Marketing and this thread in General.

What do you DO at SOE now, Grimwell ?  Genuinely interested.

EDIT :  Never mind.  Found the EQ2 post.  Suddenly not so interested.  :)

I waited a while to see if Schild would get an answer, but I am so totally with Murgos here: this whole thing stinks.  The post itself is marketing: self-promotion.  Just very, very bad marketing since he didn't bother to read around and see that coming here and kicking off with an article that should be entitled "Look at me!  Look what I wrote!  Reds, hire me!" was going to be read as offensive by some.

Morgan: "I do disruptive marketing"
Schild: "Just what is that?"
[Long delay, prevarication, noises off]
Morgan: "I'd need a couple of articles to describe that.  Hey, we should get together and do lunch some time, yah?"

If you won't describe the thrust of what you do in Darniaq's 20 words or less, then you're just playing marketing weaselry.  The document on your site is equally content-free, other than, as Murgos points out, the high point: a logo ripped off from an old game and a company address that's a house (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=13821+Frame+Road,+Poway,+CA+92064).   None of which is a criminal act in and of itself, but in the context of your other claims, it screams"shell game!"

So, since you won't tell us what disruptive marketing is, let's see what the survey says.  It just means "Oh, look at us, we do offensive shit (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/games/archives/2006/07/05/sony_ad_casues_white_riot.html) just to get media coverage."  Search engine optimisation is disruptive marketing (http://www.dannedelko.com/disruptive-marketing/) (i.e. making sure that your company appears at the top of google listings, not some neutral wikipedia entry, God forbid!).  Weaseling into the confidence of opinion formers (http://marketing.openoffice.org/strategy/v0.5.pdf) (warning, large pdf) in order to virally spread product information is disruptive marketing.

And yes, turning up on a community website and spouting only-tangentially-relevant marketing BS in order to get people speaking about you, if only to call you a prick, is disruptive marketing.  Touché.

Nice work, Endie.

So Morgan runs a two-man "company" out of his house, has no job within the industry, wants one badly enough to spend his time being the coffee & donuts bitch for the local Game Developer Social Club, and has already managed to start the most "me me me" thread seen here since the days of SirBruce.  Yeah, someone is trying to show off for the industry types.

Schild is probably too laizzes-faire to banninate him for being a mole who moles in plain sight.  Let's just grief him.

Wait a fucking minute.  If that's all true, then most of you should be accepting him with open arms because it's no more nor less than half of you do.

Yes, I'm being serious.

Now now, it's only been 12 hours. Sure, I spam the refresh button both before and after logging out of whatever I'm playing for the night. But I always thought that was just me :)

I like the kitten/catnip image. And man Ironwood, I swear I have almost the exact same picture of my first kid at that age, down to the two vertical stacks of CDs in the background. Gotta see if I can dig it up. The upshot of digital cameras is the less expense in printing. The downside is you keep everything...

Is she flashing me gang signs?

Don't take any chances.  Cap your monitor, now.

He said something about not wanting to use monetary rewards for people's opinions.

Morgan:  this is a gaming site, not a marketing site.  Meaning, the common interest of people here are games, not marketing tactics.  As such, most people here have a very strong dislike or distrust of marketing of all stripes.  Redouble the truth of that for any sort of self-promotion.  Hell, even Haemish (an ex site admin for F13) has been given lashes by the community for propping up his personal site.  The only reason that Raph, Lum, and others like them get away with it is because they're devs - the people who make the games that the people here care about, and because mostly, their blogs are less about self-promotion (although Raph has done that a few times for his book, but he gets a pass) and more about discussing games, game design, game production, etc. 

But you're not discussing any of these things.  You're discussing how to make people like me like whatever game you are promoting better.  Unless you trick a friend/family member into buying me a shittastic game, the only way I buy a game is because I've read about it on a half dozen sites as well as a couple dozen people who've gotten it early, and even the harshest critic can't dampen my desire for it.  Marketing tactics do not appeal to me, except as far as they may be amusing to watch.  SWG probably had some of the most amusing community-based marketing for it in a while.  I also never bought it, because I knew enough about it to know it wasn't for me. 

In any case, you don't bolster customer relations via "word-of-mouth marketing".  You do it by being honest about the product and sometimes tossing around freebies because we like toys (hold a contest to give away game time, autographed tshirts, beta access, whatever) for whatever product you sell.  Except that, you're not selling a product.  You're selling your ability to sell a product.  You're selling your ability to outsmart the customer, not your ability to work with the customer.  Nobody here is buying.

She's giving the fingers to the camera at that age?  Jings.  She must be from Glasgow, yes?  It's just a reflex there.

Word of mouth marketing and creating (supporting is better - I'll get into that later) evangelists is PART of Community Relations, it's not the definition of the field.

Community Relations should never just be an extension of marketing and especially shouldn’t just be responsible for creating word of mouth – and I say that having a marketing background spanning 5 years before doing Community Relations. I’ve done both, and the difference may be subtle to some, but the differences are extremely important. If your player-base sees the OCR person as nothing but a marketing mouthpiece, that OCR representative will lose all credibility.

Now onto evangelists – which the author calls opinion leaders. If you have a good product and a good message you will create evangelists. It’s up to the OCR representative to identify, nurture, and support the evangelists (whether they are websites or individuals) they feel will do the best job of helping spread the message. Community can also reach out to potential evangelists (such as guild leaders and fansites) to further spread the word. Evangelists that spawn from the community naturally are FAR more effective than those that are "created". Again though, all of this is ONE PART of what OCR does for a game. It’s an important part, but I wouldn’t say this is the definition of Community Relations. Not even close.

Good Community Relations consists of a lot more than that. It’s part marketing, part customer service, part technical support, part PR and part its own field. As Krakrok said, Community Relations is really about the interface between your customer (or potential customer) and the various teams (development, QA, Customer Support, etc.) Doing that well DOES create good word of mouth. But effective Community Relations can also have a direct impact on the game’s development, on corporate policy, and a whole lot more.

I don't know if this was part of his original point, but to me, there's a link within what you said here:

There are specific marketing tactics that can be used to get those couple dozen people to do the right kind of talking. Not all of it is as obvious as writing some so-stupid-its-easy-to-spot marketing speak at Ask.com. It's the essence of viral marketing to get something started and let the people take over the conversation. You obviously need to have a high degree of confidence in what you're offering though, because once you release it, you can no longer control the propogation nor the message.

Also, while I agree with schild that Morgan's not talking about ARGs, the bulk of activity in this space is like the Ilovebees stuff. For profit, for companies. It wouldn't work for people here, but that's mostly because this entire genre is fairly inbred when it comes to message. And that is because MMOs are not fire-and-forget one-off experiences. The history of the games, developers and players has had such a close integration between supplier and consumer that any attempt to not do that is immediately met with suspicion. As a result, they can't really do traditional marketing for MMOs unless they are trying to capture people not here. And even that is risky because the people who ARE here know way ahead of time when something is coming, and still assume that by virtue of it being an MMO, it must be for them at least in some way. :)

Wow, I hope Schild never demands I justify MY existence.

Also, chiming in to agree with Calandryll (which is usually a safe bet when CR is involved) and to emphasize: Community Relations and Public Relations are very different. The markets involved are different, the way you speak to them are different, and the objectives are different.

PR: Sells you a new game. Tells you how cool and froody their client is. Wears nice suits.
CR: Gathers, filters and sanity-checks communication bi-directionally. Canary in the coal mine. Curses amusingly.

Could you tho ?  Just for fun ?

I got Schild and his f13 posse into a party once.

There is vagueness in terms, so I'll define for the sake of my post.  They can have other meanings.

Viral marketing is where people talk about your advertisement.  People are interested in the advertisement for the ad's sake; it's funny, unique, creative, and overall entertaidning in its own right and is in some form that people can share (download, link to, etc).  It merely contains product placement of some sort.  

Word of mouth is where there is talk about the product itself.  I like X, so I tell my friends about X.  You don't buy word of mouth.  You can fake it (fake blogs, etc), but when discovered it tends to go very poorly for the company.  Dishonesty tends to not win friends.  Certainly some people do more to promote a product than others, and it is natural to want to target them.  Be careful, because favoritism is a grey area that can put off some people.  Further, if you are too selective in giving access to people it creates substantial doubt as to the legitimacy of it all.  A prime example of this is any closed beta where community press releases are allowed, but only after review; otherwise everyone (including these authors) are under NDA.  Such press releases without NDA tend to be called Previews, not Reviews.  This is ok and common already; see reporter access to playable demos at E3 and so forth.

If word of mouth is what you want, create playable demos for public download (or for online games, public traial period).  If you can't do that and have it go well, your product isn't working.  There's not really a trick to this though; get the product into people's hands and let them try it out.  If you do try to inject a trick of some sort, the community will figure it out and roast your ass for it.  The real work is in figuring out your target demograhpic, and how best to get a product into their hands to play with.  But this isn't new, and Moran isn't offering any new insight into how to do this, just that he can do it better.  Because he says he can.  There's no content, and that's the whole point of word of mouth; it's to look at the product's content and see if it's worth something.

So... yeah.

But remember, you almost weren't let into the party.

My point was a little more baseline. Sure, someone can say "X Game Has Great Community Relations" and the game can still suck balls. Basically, the product has to be good before you can pull off bolstering word of mouth about the product. No one ran out and bought Death by Degrees for the PS2 because adavertising was everywhere (and i mean everywhere). Hell, most people don't even remember the ads. And with a good product (see, God of War - it's just a really great example), with zero marketing, word of mouth spreads like wildfire and the game sells a couple million copies. Word of mouth is just one of those things that can be prodded by marketing types, but can also exist completely in a vacuum. And the only reason I latched onto it in this conversation is because he used the word "disruptive."

Hey, grimmy posted hello kitty vader. That's my job!

Hello Kitty Vader won't throw us off point on this one.

I had to reach deeply into my vader collection, but I can rebut the kitty vader with pink vader:

(http://www.fantagraphics.com/blog/uploaded_images/PinkVader-718019.jpg)

I have to admit it's one of my favorites.

I won't let you derail this thread.

How about portapotty vader?

(http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,586117,00.jpg)

I think the entire idea of moling for games is pretty vile. Portapotty Vader just expressed my feelings on moles. See? Right on topic.

It's also pointless.  If someone is going to take the time to wander around a gaming forum to read up about games with the intent of purchase, it is likely that they are genuinely interested in the product (otherwise, they're not likely to listen to some random twit on the net about it).  So... put efforts out to showcase your product.  If it's any good people will create the positive word of mouth for you.  If it isn't, one or two moles isn't going to change the overall oppinion.  Best they'll do is bring more discussion to the product, which is majorilly negative, which hurts anyone in marketing who might be trying to dress it up.  I can't see where you *want* to bring discussion to a mediocre or bad product in a room of cynics.  You don't want the public to control product perception in those cases, and all a mole would do is encourage them to.

The Word of Mouth Marketing Association (http://www.womma.org/) (WOMMA) has a very good introduction to word-of-mouth marketing (http://www.womma.org/wom101/). And since I'm not interested in reinventing the wheel, at least in terms of communicating what I do, WOMMA provides some nice descriptions:
In the simplest terms, combine those and you'll get branding. In my opinion, community relations involves all those things.

Again, that's true. But saying Community Management involves all of those things and defining Community Management by those things are two totally different statements. So I still don't agree with the statement that Community Management equals Branding. Again, having done both, they're quite different.

You are defining Community Mangement like this: Community Rep ---> Existing Community ---> Potential Community.

When Community Management actually looks like this: Community Rep <---> Community <---> Potential Community.

The feedback in the other direction is a vital part of Community Management and it goes far beyond the four things you outlined.

I'm defining Community Relations as the system of activities that develop consumer loyalty to the brand. I'm characterizing the processes of Community Relations by the "phenomena" (e.g., word of mouth, memetics) that supports Community Relations activities. And I'm claiming that branding drives, or should drive, the Community Relations system of activities.

I'm very much in agreement with you. Feedback is extremely important. (I created a diagram that illustrates the basic communication cycle (http://www.americanheretic.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/basic-communication-cycle.gif) awhile back.)

But I'm not defining Community Management as a system of activities. I'm defining CM as a CR activity, CR as a function of PR, and PR as a branding activity. I'm using the term "public relations" as Joe Marconi describes in his book, Public Relations, "Public relations is an umbrella term that covers a variety of areas and functions, including communications, community relations, customer relations, consumer affairs, employee relations, industry relations, international relations, investor relations, issues management, media relations, member relations, press agentry, promotions, publicity, public affairs, shareholder relations, speechwriting, and visitor relations."

Speaking strictly in terms of games, do you consider the "Brand" to be the game itself? the development house? the publisher? what exactly?

And on that note, do you really believe there is or can be significant brand loyal gamers in a subscription based world?  I wouldn't think so;
Brand loyalty implies a willingness to stick with a brand even though there may exist a cheaper or better, alternative.  Apple vs Microsoft, Coke vs Pepsi, etc,

Games are an entertainment business and as such are disposable, trendy, and a very fickle market.  Even though it seems like there are a lot of MMORPG's out there, I wouldn't call the market well established yet.  Which means we are very much still in the "first to market wins!" for a lot of new ideas.  Whether it was EQ's first 3D ORPG status, or WoW's casual play to 60, being first a something in this genre means a LOT, but doesn't guarantee you any brand loyalty.

Community management for mmorpg's at least seems to be about only two things:
a. Communicating what your game is about so people who already like that sort of thing know about it and are interest enough to try it.
b. Keeping existing customers satisfied enough to continue to pay for their monthly service, even when bad stuff happens, and that is mainly beating the development team into giving the customers more stickyness to each other.

But no matter how good your CM is, it's a moot point if the game service you offer is lousy, else Star Wars Galaxies and the Sims Online would be the biggest games ever.  Brand names are most valuable for well developed markets with many interchangeable choices or products/services.  I don't think games fit that mold yet.  Hell, I'd argue people have much more Guild Loyalty than Brand Loyalty at this point.

And as a side note, for pity's sake please stop spouting business school jargon.  It's even more devoid of meaning as most semantic oriented discussions on Terra Nova.  I swear if i start seeing phrases like "we've got to think outside the box", "we need to empower our cusumor partners to develop creative synergy", or "we need a new community management paradigm" I'm going into Dilbert-goes-postal mode.

This thread...  It fills me with something...  What is it?  What could it be?  Oh yeah, now I remember.

(http://www.nationmaster.com/wikimir/images/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/ca/Kefka_Hate.png/256px-Kefka_Hate.png)

This Morgan character seems to be a rather grasping wannabe overachiever. That's snide jargon for "wanker".

Calandryll, when was is in your years of Marketing/CM that you lost the ability to communicate with people? (That first post was a shocker, you have to admit)

This thread saddens me.

Edit. Because I thought we could do with some more humor in here:

Oh god, it's a chart!

CHART THREAD!!!  Fuck yeah, here we go!

(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1854/prepostrensm0ym.jpg)

Yes I know that what Morgan posted was more of a diagram than a chart.  Don't piss on my fun.

So now that the defintion is down, what is it that you'd like to discuss Morgan? Where the barriers exist and could come down? Where things go wrong and could be righted?

Quotes from books aside, I think this is the crux of our disagreement. You see Community as a subset of PR. It's not. Community is it's own function. It supports PR, just like it supports development, QA, customer service, etc. Limiting OCR to a function of PR is just that - limiting. It misses a lot of opportunities.

Oh and WindupAtheist - that's still my favorite chart of all time. :)

I'm not sure we can salvage this with any discussion. That said, Vader would like to know more about CM if you are willing to show him.

(http://www.grimwell.com/staffimgs/grimwell/Vader_Phone.jpg)

Brands represent the experiences of every person who has interacted with the brands since its inception. Branding connects these experiences to engage, empower, and encourage people in conversations. These conversations are relevant and useful to the people involved with the brand, and, by a lot of poking and prodding, lead to a certain five-sense perception of branded offerings. In a sense, the brand is the spirit of the game, developer, and publisher, and that spirit is communicated by the people involved with the game, developer, and publisher, to other people.

Yes. Frank Magid Associates unveiled its research at the MI6 Game Marketing Conference in 2006 that identified brand loyalty as the leading purchase motivation for gamers. comScore Media Metrix, along with several other market research groups, confirmed these findings. A good parallel to MMOG subscriptions are magazine subscriptions. The content of each magazine affects the spirit (brand) of each magazine, and subscribers are affected by the spirit of "their" magazine in terms of whether they want to continue subscribing, or write a letter to the editor expressing their outrage or thanks. How often do you hear gamers talk about the games they play as "my games" and "your games", or the characters they create in virtual worlds as "my characters" and "your characters". In shooters, "You killed me!" "I killed you!" With recent psychological research (http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0000039) suggesting that what happens in virtual environments is very emotionally real to the users, I have no doubts that there is, and can be, significant numbers of brand-loyal subscription gamers.

I feel that this is mostly due to the level of sophistication in this industry's marketing practices, and part of the reason why I want to establish a Marketing SIG of the IGDA. Being first is a way to set what you're selling apart from the competition, but it's not the only way. Jack Trout, who fathered the Positioning concept with Al Ries, wrote a book, Differentiate or Die: Survival in Our Era of Killer Competition. It's a very well-written book; that is, you don't need a marketing degree to read it. He describes a number of ways to add unique flavor to offerings. I like this one quote he references in regards to being first, "As Thomas Edison advised, 'Make it a habit to keep on the lookout for novel and interesting ideas that others have used successfully.'" There he's referring to "borrowed firsts", such as TelePizza in Madrid whose founder used Domino's home delivery pizza concept to successfully launch a chain of restaurants in a different part of the world. I'm thinking of all those MMOG developers who are looking at World of Warcraft as a model for their products.

For the most part, I agree with you, but I don't think games will always not be that way. I'm looking to the future.

Terminology is jargon to people outside the field in which terminology belongs. I think I've used a lot less terminology than I could have used. And I don't want to assume that you don't understand what I'm talking about. That'd be much ruder than assuming you do understand.

I don't think it's limiting. I think it's... empowering. (Sorry, Xilren's Twin.) Look, the CEO is the primary spokesperson for an organization. He's the public relations chief, or at least, he's supposed to be. When you're your own function, like consultants, you're overhead. You're not necessary to the operations of business, and in an economic downturn, the rug can be swept out from under your feet in an instant. But when you're a component, a function, of public relations, you're vital and necessary to the business. The CEO needs you, wants you, even. And you'll get that much more support, and possibly even a chair in the boardroom. I just don't see the logic in embracing a secondary position (a la Will Stronghold in Sky High) when you have available to you a larger, primary role where you can do so much more.

Can someone ban him already?
 
I thought there might be more pictures or charts, but all we get is walls of meaningless text...

I would post some hobbit pr0n but I've been FORBIDDEN.   :cry:

Kill me.

Yeah, that makes no fucking sense. I'm not part of a brand.

That sentence really did take it to the XXXXXXXXXXXXXTREEEEEEEEEEEEEEME.

I am so confused now. 

X13 - usefully eXtreme commentary.  Maybe we can have an EXTReMe week - a cross between Raging Douchebag Week and Festivus.

You're confused? I don't even know what I do for a living anymore.

You can't define a brand by saying it is the experience of every person who has interacted with the brand. Interacted with what?

If people identify with their character in an online game, it doesn't mean they are loyal to the brand (whatever the brand actually is). It certainly doesn't mean they are loyal to the game, dev house or publisher. It might mean they want to keep on playing the game, but I don't think that's the same thing (incidentally, Bartle says identifying or caring about a character is not enough to keep someone playing - yeah I read Bartle's big book).

It's not an insult to think I have no idea what "a certain five-sense perception of branded offerings" means.

In an effort to be vaguely constructive, I'll give my vote to the idea that it is hard to encourage brand loyalty in entertainment. Personally, I think South Park is still hilarious but I don't watch it any more unless it happens to be on when I am flicking through channels. When it first started, I watched it religiously. I actually think it is funnier now, but I want new shiny. However, when it comes to boring old shampoo, I always buy the same brand and I don't even know why.

I think community relations in an online game is less important than we sometimes imagine. I almost never read the WoW boards or have any contact with the people behind WoW except logging into their game. It works, I enjoy it - I guess the fact that the servers usually work and the game does what it is supposed to is a form of customer relations, but in a very nebulous way. I know nothing much about Blizzard, never played Warcraft, and I bought Diablo but didn't like it. None of that makes any difference to me.

On the other hand, I hated Verant and SOE from the EQ (first EQ) beta. They hyped up the fact that there would be an open beta which "everyone" would be able to take part in. Everyone was what they said. In those days, these games were quite new and that seemed very cool and exciting. I was an EQ fanboi.

Then the time comes, the e-mail arrives "welcome to the Everquest beta!" or something, and there's a little note at the end - north America only. What did they think their customers would take "everyone" to mean?

Rightly or wrongly, it pissed me off. And we all know what their customer relations was like once the game launched, at least at first.

But it didn't stop me giving them money for two years, as I liked the game. I'm pretty sure I won't stick with WoW as long, as right now there is more shiny on the horizon and I like trying new things. I want to try Vanguard, just to see what it is like, and if I do like it I'll probably subscribe for a while and close my WoW account, nevermind Brad McQaid (sp?) and SOE's involvement.

Customer service is obviously important - the game must work, the bugs must be bearable, the company musn't charge your credit card twice, but I don't know if that's the same as community relations.

In MMORPGs community relations might play a role in getting people on board before the game's launch - setting up a message board for people to chat on, etc. Getting some guilds involved. But when Vanguard, for example, comes out, what is going to determine how well it sells? Personally I suspect it will be reviews in magazines and the big gaming websites, adverts in magazines, whether the box looks nice, where the shops actually place the boxes and the usual boring stuff. The overwhelming majority of potential buyers will not know or care what FoH or the people on this board or even the people posting on Vanguard boards over the past few months thought about the game (although I suspect a more significant number will make a decision during the kind-of-open beta period they now have going).

X13.NET is already taken. (Click Here for Details)

Maybe you would like...

X13ONLINE.NET
X13WEB.NET
X13HOMEPAGE.NET
WHATISCOMMUNITYRELATIONS.NET

F13thebrand.net

You are a facilitator that maximizes the synergistic potential of multiple communications channels for a brand.

You create synergy among possible high value brand identifiers in massively social spaces.

Personally I want to know if UO really has negative 55 thousand subscribers.

I've been on the EA payroll for years.

(http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/5633/l1283zc1.jpg)

This is for Morgan. I don't want anybody else to respond to this. I repeat. I do not want to see a response to this from anyone but Morgan.

Morgan, do you know what that image is from? If Yes, say what it is from and give me a description of the game. If no, just say no.

Edit: I just have to assume - now that I've seen you refresh a couple times, that you have no clue what it is. And that's ok. It is sort of embarrasing for you if you don't though. As it's one of those completely unique moments in gaming history - or really branding history (in any market). Nothing like it had ever been created. And trust me, that screenshot really says everything except the title. If you know, it's instantly recognizable.

Yes, gamers have relationships with game brands, dev studio brands and publisher brands, among others.

However, due to the very fluid nature of the gaming industry, most brands don't hang around all that long - it might be one game, or a few years at most. Then they die due to various reaons and leave only nostalgia behind. Or get bought out and what the brand means is changed (as a new example: EA Mythic... or maybe not...) or perhaps the brand means very little overall in the first place (eg EA).

But then there is also GTA, Blizzard, HL, Fallout - names (brands) which mean a lot more than just a game to a lot of gamers.

As for "what is CR" - you are currently arguing long on semantics, Morgan. Imo, PR and CR might overlap in some cases, but are quite different creatures due to their targets.

Okay, Schild, I can not respond to that, I think.

Jargon is bad.  The point of highly technical words is to make things clear within the field of discussion.  The terms are shorthand for years of experience.  That terminology works in the technical environment where people have that experience or the education in that experience, but outside that environment, it fails badly.  Worse, it makes people feel dumb, and nobody likes that. If you can't say it in non-technical terms to a non-technical audience, don't say it.

I do think brand loyalty is an important issue in this industry, but the best example is negative. SOE.  At this point, SOE could release a game that caused spontaneous orgasm for anyone with fifty feet of the player's computer, and it would still get bad buzz.  A lot of that was bad CR, and a lot of it relates to design choices.  Just as there has been a failure to incorporate other aspects of CS and CR into the basic design of games, so too has there been a failure to consider marketing as an integral part of the game.  I don't mean in game advertisements, I mean creating games that have broad appeal, that create positive experience.  That doesn't just mean making games with good technical functions, but making games that begin with ideas in the common consciousness, that are broadly understandable.

Most folks here hate that idea, since we don't want broad appeal, we want narrow appeal, we want our game, that validates our vision.  I think that part of what Raph is trying for with his 'dinosaur' arguments and his new company is that.  And I think that that is probably something like what Morgan is driving at.  But, dude, you need to sell it better.  You're the college boy talking to the guys at the gas station here, and that never works.

Actually, part of the big problem with what he's selling is he's selling it to a bunch of people who DO KNOW about branding and ESPECIALLY know about community relations. And somehow, he's confusing us. I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone when I say "Yer not smart enough to be talkin' like that HURRR HURRR HURRR and we can smell it."

Aye.

There are people here competent enough to enter into jargon filled discussions in a variety of fields

It's not that he's using jargon, it's that he's using it to hide the fact he's not saying anything (probably due to not understanding much). If you rewrite what he has said w/o the jargon it just adds up to a lot of insipid nothingness, so why do we want to get involved? Trying to use jargon to hide the fact you don't understand much only works when you're speaking to the ignorant (and in such situations it's pretty much fruad).

We're not ignorant. We're just poking fun and the fraudster who picked a bad spot to masturbate.

edit: Engrish.

Representation isn't definition. Brands represent the sum of the experiences of the people who interacted with them. What is perception? Perception is the system that produces experiences using the five senses, or processes, of sight, sound, taste, touch, and smell. The products of perception are unique experiences. Everyone sees, hears, tastes, touches, and smells their own perception of reality in a way that makes every one of us an individual. We're set apart by our history, our approach to living, the people we know, and the things we do.

You're right. You're not part of a brand. But every time you communicate your views about other people, products, services, etc., you're contributing to brands by allowing other people to share your experiences or at least understand how they fit into the bigger picture.

What I'm getting at, both here and with my article, is that there are a lot of opportunities where community relations can encourage people to take a game and say, "It's my game, and through my involvement I'm going to make my game into something I've always dreamed." That's what people are doing with Second Life. And further into the spectrum of games, that's what people have done with the games that have spawned GameSpy Planets communities. I want people to feel good about their decisions, about their purchases, and I want them to know they are getting something truly of genuine value in return for their hard-earned money. Community relations can do this, and the opportunities are there.

I never said that CR is PR. PR shares CR goals because CR is a form of PR. It's just PR for different stakeholders just as IR is PR for investors.

No. Looks like a pie chart made to look like a watch made to look like a countdown to global domination. Pretty cool.

I'm not trying to sell anything. schild brought up the topic about what I do, not me. I just wanted to talk about community relations with a group of people who have strong opinions about community relations.

That's interesting, schild. You do realize that you are now celebrating F13 as a community of marketers, right?

I knew it.  Sir Bruce Gimmick account.

I don't expect most people to know what that image is, particularly not the PC Gamers around here. BUT when you combine PC Gaming with your claims of knowledge in the branding field, there's simply no excuse. To put it simply, and without any jargon, you don't know enough about the history of your field if you don't know what that image is from - thankfully someone has summed it up better than I could. So I'll leave it to Hardcore Gaming 101 to lay down some knowledge (http://hg101.classicgaming.gamespy.com/segagaga/segagaga.htm). You may have some interesting things to say about games, but the sort of masturbation you've dropped on us thus far isn't really in the style of F13. It's more the type of shit you'd overhear at Terra Nova Avenue or Bruce Woodcock Lane or HRose's Engrish Emporium.

Well then, I suppose I chose the wrong community, and I will be leaving. So long, and thanks for all the fish. :wink:

In English, you want to give people a pat on the back for purchasing either A) something that's actually a PoS, but you'd rather people didn't catch on, or B) a product that actually is good...but if a product is good Anyway, why would the purchaser need your reassurance that it's good? The good qualities of the product should speak for themselves.

If your client is a game dev, and I've already purchased the game...what are you trying to do for me again? You already have my money.


Also, we're not marketers. We're not trying to sell Anyone Anything; there's nothing in it for us. If anything, the way things have been going around here lately, we're the anti-thesis of marketing - we're like negative marketing, raining down blows upon games from on high. And also calling bullshit wherever someone notices.

I want to punch you in the face.

I miss Morgan.   :|

You know, one of my biggest pet peeves when dealing with certain upper management types in my company and others is they have totally no idea how to communicate other than in business jargon, so they end of spouting off about "value added" , the dread word "synergy" (which both Trippy and Lum just had to say to tork me off  :x ), and talking about "empowerment" (which you used twice you bastard).  Rectal cranial inversion by over analysis and fluff speak.  You speak like the Pointy Haired Boss, and that's not a good thing.  I swear the next time one of our directors says in a meeting, "remember, we don't sell products, we sell value" im going to throw a Swingline stapler at him.  What's the value of a product that doesn't work again?  Oh yeah... Next time dont skimp on the QA wordsmith...

Is good CM useful?  Of course.  But until we get at least 5+ more years into the market where any new game can be assumed to be stable, relatively bug free, and feature complete because the market wont bear anything less, it's is of FAR FAR lesser importance than just getting a good design that actually implemented well.  Just look at the impending train wreck that is Vanguard.  The game's not even close to being done: classes missing, tons of bugs, missing content and major game system overhauls and introduction when just weeks from release.  It's going to do very poorly compared to the current market leader, and no amount of marketing, PR, CR, or CM is going to change that.  The people who had a good experience with the "EQ brand", or the "Game by Brad Brand", or even the "SOE Brand" are not going to say, "we've read, heard, seen with our own eyes the problems with the game, but damn that Abashi is a sweet talking devil who has added value to our constant server crashes!  Why just look at how much fun we have bitching about it on the Vault site, now with exclusive screenshots.  Sign me up for another 5 years!"

Now, I will say one positive thing about branding.  We WILL see the market start to show signs up branding when the concepts of the SOE station pass, or NCSoft multipass, or Turbine Taffypass are common.  One set monthly price for a suite of games to choose from.  However, i still dont think it will have nearly the impact of markets like automobiles, consumer products, and the like.

Damn, he left didnt he...

Holy shit, I just get to read this train wreck.  WUA, Morgan just took your spot on my "people I hate" list, sorry you are just nowhere nearly as annoying, so you are free to go.

Marketing (and all tools of the trade associated with it, like branding) exist for one purpose - to get consumer (aka sucker) to buy product (aka useless shit). If we lived in a world where fairly priced quality products were made and consumed in a socially responsible manner there would be no need for marketing.

Now there is a difference in knowing what you do and why and believing in fairy tales that you create as part of your job, Morgan clearly crossed that line waaaay into nutjob territory.

Oh, Morgan, welcome to F13 and fuck you, don't come back you cock sucking cunt.

The sad part is that he wasn't particularly ill-mannered, just brainwashed by his own crazed and mostly imagined business world. For his own spiritual salvation, I hope he gets kicked out of more places.

The sad truth is that he'll probably land a cush job in marketing somewhere, earn a bazillion dollars, and one day forget to tip WUA at the Starbucks counter  :-P

Morgan.  If you want to spout your ideas, one rule is do not refute the experts.  Cal is one of the TOP CSR's out there; you cannot refute anything he says.  Period.  He is the pinnacle of how it should be.  I told you to stop it.  Why did you not believe me?

Do not leave.  Step back, take a nap, post an apology, toss a e-mail to Grim, and then come back here and join us. 

This place is circling the drain, what next we let SirBruce back? Back in my day if you taunt happy fun ball you get gone and stay gone.

You have been a good boy and even virtually hugged WUN.  Hush.

To the people that knew Morgan prior to this, what things of value has he said or done before that earned your respect? I'm curious because I and I think the majority of people here have only seen jargon filled posts that have very little actual content to them.

It came from Grimwell, which was shit.  So does not matter.

Morgan is this guy (http://www.americanheretic.com/), not SirBruce. 

He first showed up on Grimwell's and immediately managed to rub me the wrong way as well.  Basically, Morgan's is God's gift to poor lost gamers looking to learn how the industry is like.  That's good unless you don't regard yourself as a poor, lost gamer, in which case he comes off as super condescending and surprisingly unwilling to hear anything you have to say.

But I may be slandering him a bit overmuch.  I am limited to just one perspective, after all, and am about as empathic as a rock sometimes.

Sinij, aren't you from the ex-USSR? A place with no marketing. Funny, that's one of the first things they added when they were free to.

Marketing by itself isn't necessarily evil. People like to know what options they have. Reviews are a form of marketing (which is why most game companies send out review copies gratis to media outlets).

I've talked to him a bunch.  He's a guy who really believes in what he says.  I have no idea if what he says is correct given "how it should be" with marketing because, well, I know fuckall about marketing.  I really don't think about people in the "justify your existence" sense.  We've had cool discussions about random BS.  He's not a douche, dickhead or jagoff.  That's good enough for me.


So will you be discussing him in your upcoming book, "Treason 2:  Doomcast Boogaloo"?

Just for that, you're getting a signed copy.

Its like saying amazon tribes added theft after meeting with first explorers and getting mirrors and beads as gifts 'when there were free to'.

If he didn't want to get eaten alive, he needed to come in here "switched off" and just talk.  As it was, he came in here spewing jargon and got the entire forum riled up against him.

I mean look, I've been on other forums where guys with science and engineering degrees were throwing around heavy terminology the average person isn't familiar with.  Nobody rose up and threw them off the board.

Why?  Because being a layman isn't the same as being stupid.  We can tell the difference between jargon used to quickly communicate complex ideas, and bullshit used to complicate things for the sake of making them sound more important.

So yeah, much as I've flamed you Morgan, go ahead and come back.

Just talk like a god damned human being if you do.

He might believe what he says but his marketing "bio" points to a one page Web site (if you can even call it that) with a PDF that has absolutely no real content at all, making vague mention of artists, organizations and companies that won't even let him use their names as references which is the same vague content in his bio. Really, he's an authority on marketing as much as we are an authority on game design -- i.e. not at all (our wonderful red names excepted) -- but at least we know what we like to play and can (usually) articulate it reasonably well. I mean if the guy had an MBA from a well-known business school and/or worked in marketing, corporate communications or a PR firm I might actually think he sort of knew what he was talking about.

This thread made me feel like I am at work.  Yeah, my company makes a product, but it's mostly marketing.  Makes my eyes glaze over after about the tenth made-up marketing word/phrase.  I don't even like going to the IT dept meetings due to this shit.

Anyway, as I was saying, come ahead ya wide-o's, ah'll pure chib the fuckin lot o yeese.

I fear we might need to provide some education  (http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/tv/chewinthefat/neds/neducation.shtml) on this one....

this thread needs more flair

(http://www.myteespot.com/images/thumbs/t_6653.jpg)

Sexy party vader!
(http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/darth_vader_heaven.jpg)

I have to take issue with the people who suggested, even very politely, that some of us would have been able to understand what Morgan was saying if we knew more about marketing or, ahem, had been a bit smarter.

I'm not taking offence, but don't tell me you can see the emperor's clothes. He has no clothes. There was simply no meaning in most of Morgan's posts.

Xilren’s Twin:
"Speaking strictly in terms of games, do you consider the "Brand" to be the game itself? the development house? the publisher? what exactly?"

Morgan (in reply):
"Brands represent the experiences of every person who has interacted with the brands since its inception."

Brands represent the experiences of every person who has interacted with the brands . . . there's a problem with his answer.

In marketing, circularity is not a logical fallacy.  It is self-enabling internal synergy.

If you could have squeezed in the word "dovetail" you would have had a Dilbert comic.

I'm more concerned about the lack of Boobs on Sky's women.

I don't think this thread would have caused nearly as many problems if it wasn't in this particulary sub-forum. Probably more appropriate for the Game Design one (I always link the business of building and selling to the act of designing and developing)?

Otherwise, carry on.

Caused problems? We really have mellowed with age, haven't we?

A newbie posted a madlib, but filled with PHB buzzwords in attempt to pretend to be a game CR expert.  He was laughed off the board.  By real experts.  What's the problem?

No, Darniaq, it might have gone on for a bit longer, but the end result would have been the same. An uneducated brown noser spouting marketing jargon in a torrent of meaningless drivel may have attracted a bit less attention on another forum, but f13 has a long tradition of ferriting out exactly this type of tripe.

And giving them red names.

But not of spelling the word, "ferreting."


Who said you'd be able to understand him if you were smarter?  I'd sure like to see that post.

Nice marmot.

(http://www.handfulofsand.com/images/blog/lebowski.jpg)

You need to bring back the Jesus.  Or Photoshop the Jesus into the current avatar.

I can't believe this reached 4 pages without someone mentioning Veronica Mars.

Is that a college band?

Don't be such a weesil.

If he hadn't posted it in the MMOG forum with all those key buzzwords floating around I almost certainly would have let it slide.

Lets put this to rest, we are into cruel and unusual punishment territory.

The comment about the college guy talking to the guys at the gas station, but perhaps I did misunderstand that.

I suggest he do some market research on the phrase "wtfpwned" because that's what happened to him here.

Yeah, I think that was moreso an illustration of how jargon goes over the heads of laypeople, or at least means nothing...it's more of a "tips for effective communication" comment, really.

 :-D :-D :-D

I don't get it.

He actually has tips for effective communication on his blog (http://www.americanheretic.com/2006/10/06/delivering-messages-effectively/).  They're very revealing:

"Long known by creatives worldwide throughout the centuries... When your approach to delivering your message is consistent, you will be king, and your people will listen. Avoid allowing your delivery of your message to be derailed by naysayers and other ill treatment from hecklers in the crowd."

We hecklers and naysayers must feel pretty small for betraying our king.  Vayner (http://=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksey_VaynerAleksey Vayner) and him should get together and go bowling...

Edit: fixed link

Biography (http://www.americanheretic.com/biography/)

If you haven't seen Veronica Mars then, well, nevermind.

I made a Morgan Webb connection on irc yesterday, does that count?

Like most of the rest of his "bio" the reference was so vague it's very likely he was simply just an extra standing somewhere in the background at one point.

Just to address this, he is not credited on IMDB.com. Not for Veronica Mars, or "John from Cincinnati" on HBO.

Also, if you follow the little profile link (http://www.linkedin.com/in/ramsay), you can read his profile/resume for a couple of chuckles. I was most interested in his educational credentials, down at the bottom. First, I chuckled a bit when I realized he is taking 5 years...for two Associate's degrees. At my school, I'm fairly sure that would be wrapped up into a single degree (I worked in Academic Affairs while I was in school, so I've poured through lots of the paperwork behind different programs, courses, and majors).

Well, maybe he's doing this at a tough school or something. Heck, I took 4.5 years to do my undergrad work, so who knows. I have never heard of Palomar College, but it was easy enough to find (http://www.palomar.edu/).

Are you kidding me? Most people here could probably complete at least one 4-year degree at a county college without going to the actual classes. But 5 years? Just for AAs? Why am I not surprised at the uninformed nonsense he was spewing forth here?

Digging deeper still, I come up with this (http://www.palomar.edu/catalog/2006/pdf/section_5_pgs_107-158.pdf#page=5) (opens into a large PDF). Now, seeing that he was picking up the General Business AA and the Advertising, Marketing, and Merchandising AA, that only works out to 70 credits, max. That's 4 heavy semesters, or 5 average ones. Two to Two-and-a-half years. And those certifications? The "Retail - Management" and "Salesperson - Retail" (which he cites as Retail Sales) certs? Junk, and they mostly (if not completely) overlap with the AAs anyway, so it's not like he'd have to go out of his way to pick them up.

I mean, it's great that he's trying to get an education in his chosen field...but an AA only just begins to build a framework. I mean, clearly, part of the reason it didn't seem like he knew anything is because he hasn't taken classes that really taught anything (jokes about marketing/business programs aside); pretty much all entry-level courses. You don't really start to learn (IMO) until you step up into the junior/senior level courses. I mean, I learned things in my 100-level courses, but there's a huge difference between freshman courses and 300/400 level courses. I'm not even going to discuss "capstone"-type courses required to finish a major.

Welcome one and all to F13.net. Where we will cyberstalk you to death and then make fun of the corpse.

With charts.

Taking more classes will only make him less ignorant, he will still be a sorry mess when he tries to apply intelligence to what he hath learned (a generous term).

You know... at this point the thread has gone from "Woah did Morgan make a mistake here!" right into "Some of these guys are all stalker creepy."

I think Bunk said it best and the laugh that got out of me lets me start my working day with a positive attitude.

(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/GrimDysart/mchart.jpg)

You left off Trammel, WoW subscribers, ingame ads, and SWG crafting. Noob.

Fucking awesome chart WUA.  Awesome.

That's great. So what's disruptive marketing, then?

Er, he's gone mate.

not a fan of Douglas Adams?

Remember kids, slightly irritated and bored folks with high speed and google fu are only a step away from cyberstalkerhood. 
Be smart about the communities you manage to wander into...

Yeah, I was reading my way through. I didn't see him get ganked and then the corpse camping till now.

BTW, Grimwell.

Read WUA's posts for "what went wrong".

f13 is the chart fucking master of the internet.

What did he drop?

Can't check yet. Schild still has the corpse lootlocked.

If you liken the Politics forum to drunken brawls, then this thread is F13's take on villagers with pitchforks and torches.  Isn't so much stalking because no one here cares about Morgan.  The point is to make Morgan care about Morgan.

I wanted a thread to share my theories on Disruptive Stalking.

It's like normal stalking, but with bear-traps.

This thread looked boring as hell, then I re-noticed it at 5-pages.


Damnit, I missed all the fun.

Its not often we get to flay a newbie alive around here, and this opportunity was just too good to pass up.

Just FYI, I didn't even have to use Google. He had all the info I needed displayed in plain sight. I would think any reputable client or employer would do much the same in checking out his credentials.

I love you all as if you were my own!

I have to admit, I'm a little envious how Morgan's caught the attention of F13 vitriol two pages after he left.

Sometimes you just scream, "SAY SOMETHING MEAN TO ME!".  I know you do it on purpose, too.   :-P

Shouldn't you be in a group somewhere, camping something?

I'm sure you'll think of something, hoss.   :-D

You should leave f13 just to find out if you get the same treatment.

I don't really mean that, I just wanted to join the quote Geldon with a one liner club.

You'll love it . . . it's a way of life!  Resemblance to a Telefunken U47 (http://www.telefunkenusa.com/products/show_product.php?item=7&cat=mics) not guaranteed.

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. Know when to fold them while still holding them, kind of an origami-fu.

Shuriken, you die!

Heh heh, sometimes I think this forum needs a [tongue-in-cheek] tag.

No, all my past trolling as honestly been out of genuine blundering on my part.  I'm the Charlie Chaplin of forum snafus.

You just made me LOL  :-D