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Title: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Nonentity on December 12, 2006, 09:25:12 AM Title says it all, really.
Quote LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Red 5 Studios, an online video-game developer led by members of the team behind the wildly popular "World of Warcraft" game, said on Monday it has raised $18.5 million in venture capital. The funding from Benchmark Capital and Sierra Ventures comes as a rise in high-speed Internet usage in the United States and elsewhere fuels interest in online gaming -- the standard mode of play in many Asian countries. "World of Warcraft" from Vivendi's Blizzard Entertainment provides an online world in which thousands of players compete simultaneously. Revenue comes from game sales of about $20 per unit, subscription fees of some $15 per month, and downloads of add-on content. The game has obliterated former usage records with a subscriber base of more than 6.5 million globally, and forced U.S. video-game publishers to rethink online gaming as development costs climb. In the United States, games for consoles like Sony Corp (NYSE:SNE - news).'s PlayStation 2 and Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox 360 are dominant. Top titles sell for $50 to $60, and play time is often measured in hours rather than months. Mark Kern, Red 5's chief executive and former team leader on "World of Warcraft," said his California-based game studio will create original games for online game operators and distributors -- much as Pixar Animation Studios did in the movie world with its animated films such as "Toy Story" and "Finding Nemo." "Pixar really showed that you can have a content-focused strategy," Kern said of the animated film maker that is now owned by the Walt Disney Co. Red 5 is already working on a massively multiplayer online game for Webzen Inc. The South Korean company is financing the development of the game, which Webzen will distribute. Online games are currently sold at retail outlets or via Internet download. Benchmark General Partner Bill Gurley predicted that massive online games like "World of Warcraft" will become a dominant form of entertainment. "Major media companies are paying attention in a major way," said Gurley, whose firm's investments have included "Second Life" virtual reality game maker Linden Lab and mobile game maker Jamdat, which sold to video game publishing giant Electronic Arts Inc. earlier this year for $684 million. source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061211/wr_nm/financial_videogames_dc_3 I was still a GM for WoW when the first batch of people left ship to go to NCSoft. The head of the customer service area (he was 'Maleki' on the forums, IE Maleki the Pallid in Stratholme was named after him), who happened to be in my guild at the time, jumped ship to NCSoft. How many other people are going to siphon off of the freight train that is WoW onto other projects? Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Merusk on December 12, 2006, 09:30:06 AM I think they missed a few opportunities to whore the "Hey I worked on WOW" angle in that release. Then again, when you can't point to anything else, I guess using some of the shine of your former employer is all you've got.
Anyone know what Team Mark Kern actually worked on, and what he was really responsible for? ed. pwnd by spelling. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Trippy on December 12, 2006, 09:50:37 AM As the article said, Mark was the Team Lead on WoW. That meant, among other things, that he put together the WoW team at a time when all the Blizzard executives thought it was a bad idea (i.e. WoW basically started as a skunk works project) and to hear him talk about it lead many if not most of the important design decision meetings. So he was sort of more than just a Producer since he was involved with design decisions but he also wasn't a full blown Director since he wasn't dictating the design just leading the discussions.
As for missing a few opportunities, check out the Red 5 bios and you'll see that a lot of the key WoW people joined Red 5 so while you were probably being facetious they in fact did underplay the WoW card. Some of their earlier press releases played up the three co-founders Blizzard background's a lot more. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Nonentity on December 12, 2006, 10:44:36 AM As the article said, Mark was the Team Lead on WoW. That meant, among other things, that he put together the WoW team at a time when all the Blizzard executives thought it was a bad idea (i.e. WoW basically started as a skunk works project) and to hear him talk about it lead many if not most of the important design decision meetings. So he was sort of more than just a Producer since he was involved with design decisions but he also wasn't a full blown Director since he wasn't dictating the design just leading the discussions. As for missing a few opportunities, check out the Red 5 bios and you'll see that a lot of the key WoW people joined Red 5 so while you were probably being facetious they in fact did underplay the WoW card. Some of their earlier press releases played up the three co-founders Blizzard background's a lot more. Huh, didn't know that. Sounds like a decent business model, though. I'd trust the guys that headed the WoW project to slice off a chunk of the pie more then a newcomer. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Trouble on December 15, 2006, 10:17:29 AM They better make a good game or there will be beatings.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Jayce on December 15, 2006, 11:37:21 AM If nothing else, we get to learn whether the Blizzard charmed life is due to people, management, process, or something else.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: angry.bob on December 15, 2006, 11:43:39 AM So, do you guys think this talent drain accounts for why WoW has turned into the sad, directionless clusterfuck that it has in the last month? I mean, every aspect of everything related to the game has taken a complete shit in the last month, including the new cinematic. The one good thing they did (new pvp), they not only fucked for no good reason pissing everyone off, they managed to create a terrible problem doing it. And then they refuse to roll back and instead expect everyone to check every character they have and submit a report. WoW is a joke that even SOE can laugh at legitimately.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: geldonyetich on December 15, 2006, 12:29:42 PM Yes, yes, WoW's doom is slowly coming into place. <arches fingers>
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Threash on December 15, 2006, 12:49:00 PM So, do you guys think this talent drain accounts for why WoW has turned into the sad, directionless clusterfuck that it has in the last month? I mean, every aspect of everything related to the game has taken a complete shit in the last month, including the new cinematic. The one good thing they did (new pvp), they not only fucked for no good reason pissing everyone off, they managed to create a terrible problem doing it. And then they refuse to roll back and instead expect everyone to check every character they have and submit a report. WoW is a joke that even SOE can laugh at legitimately. Im sure they'll keep laughing once wow blows 10 mill subs. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Rhonstet on December 15, 2006, 01:25:42 PM WoW is a joke that even SOE can laugh at legitimately. From a great distance, crying can look like laughter. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: angry.bob on December 15, 2006, 02:07:53 PM Indeed, there is no greater barometer of quality than numbers, as evidenced by McDonald's, Walmart, or a hundred other examples of crap pandered to the subhuman lowest common denominator. I'd be surprised if WoW breaks 10 million subs unless no one puts out another (decent) MMO next year - and even then I'd still be surprised. Despite trying to reach the mainstream with cute Office Space ads and South Park, they're not going to draw in many more people who aren't already involved in the genre. Add in people leaving the game through natural attrition, disgust over pointless insults like the honor nerf, disgust at poor QA like a sloppy, rushed nerf randomly deleting one out of every eight object owned by players, or poor the poor CS in the way they've handled them both. the number of people seeing that ad during CSI and saying 'HOLY CRAP I HAVE TO GO TO THE WORLD OF AZEROTH TO ESCAPE DRUDGERY" and then actually staying with it past the free period is nowhere near the number of people seeing it and saying "What nerd crap for psycho nolifes was that?" or "What was he originally playing in that scene?"
Besides, they could have 20 million and it still wouldn't change that their QA, CS, art, design, and pretty much every other aspect of their company except raw sub numbers is in the toilet compared to where it was a year ago. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Trippy on December 15, 2006, 02:14:17 PM So, do you guys think this talent drain accounts for why WoW has turned into the sad, directionless clusterfuck that it has in the last month? I mean, every aspect of everything related to the game has taken a complete shit in the last month, including the new cinematic. The one good thing they did (new pvp), they not only fucked for no good reason pissing everyone off, they managed to create a terrible problem doing it. And then they refuse to roll back and instead expect everyone to check every character they have and submit a report. WoW is a joke that even SOE can laugh at legitimately. Blizzard has been treating their WoW customers like crap from day 1 so that's nothing new. Fortunately for them they have no serious competition so they can get away with that. Red 5 was founded in 2005 -- the press release was just about their latest round of funding -- so it's kind of hard to attribute any recent problems in the game to people having left for Red 5 a year or so ago. I do believe, though, that the lackluster BC cinematic is at least partially due to the former cinematics director leaving.Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: El Gallo on December 15, 2006, 02:21:31 PM No, I think that it is unlikely that some developers starting a new company over a year ago is the reason that the last patch had a lot of technical problems.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: HaemishM on December 15, 2006, 02:32:01 PM No, I think that it is unlikely that some developers starting a new company over a year ago is the reason that the last patch had a lot of technical problems. You can blame that on the sun coming up. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: El Gallo on December 15, 2006, 02:36:29 PM Shazam!
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: angry.bob on December 15, 2006, 02:53:04 PM over a year ago Ah, okay. Based on the thread title and the quoted portion I thought it was more recent, as in the last few months. A better thread title might have been "Red 5 raises 18.5 million". *shrug* Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Trouble on December 15, 2006, 03:11:40 PM From my perspective Blizzard has a pretty firm direction on where they want to take things, and seem to have a firm grip on how to get there. They've made changes that have angered a lot of customers, but on the other hand every major change you make to a game pisses people off and I think it shows that they do indeed have a specific vision if they're willing to make these changes as they have. I have not seen any specific lack of quality of what they've done compared to anything they've done in the past. A mix of good, bad, and bugginess that is as usual better than what most other games are able to produce. Seems normal to me.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Righ on December 15, 2006, 03:43:00 PM I think it shows that they do indeed have a specific vision There's that V word again. This can't lead to anything good. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Trouble on December 15, 2006, 03:57:08 PM Maybe Vision is a loaded word. Perhaps "direction" is more appropriate. They have a certain direction they want to take parts of the game in and they seem to be doing a good job of it, even if some people don't like what that direction is.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Jayce on December 15, 2006, 11:25:07 PM every major change you make to a game pisses people off Though also, every major gust of wind pisses some people off (*cough*angry.bob) Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Nebu on December 16, 2006, 12:20:27 AM I think these people are in for a rude awakening when they discover just how much having "Blizzard" on the box meant to that game's success.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Venkman on December 16, 2006, 08:34:11 AM Replace "Blizzard" with "SOE (of five years ago)". Same thing. The latter only had to change their customer relation practices and game design approach because someone else came along and handed them their shirt. Whether that was FFXI, GW or WoW is not really important. Other companies proved that better games and less antagonistic CSR are selling points.
Blizzard doesn't need fear someone else coming with 10mil subscribers. They need fear just another game of analagous style hitting the 3-4mil mark (no, I don't consider either Lineage analagous). Then you'll see them get all public with "under new management" signs about CSR and such. But angry.bob, I think you're overestimating the importance of the current issues the game is experiencing. If as many people really cared as you think care, they'd be in trouble. But they're not. New people put up with what we suffered five years ago because if you like this sort of experience, WoW is a best in class offering. Where are these people going to go? EQ2? DAoC? CoH? In the future anyone here think TR or AoC to WAR are going to drag away millions? Some have and will. But none of those offer the obvious mass-appeal alternative that is WoW, or they'd already be more popular. The Warcraft IP can only get people to come to the game. The game itself (and total experience) is what keeps them. And obviously those are working for people right now. There's a better chance of the next gen of players making Habbo or Maplestory more relevant through sheer mass of their numbers or average revenue generated per player than WoW getting dethroned by a new game specifically designed for us here. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Strazos on December 16, 2006, 10:17:40 AM Really, I think part of the reason so many people love WoW is because it's their first MMO.
Lets think back people. What was your first MMO? How much crap did you put up with in that first game, compared to the newer offerings of today? Personally, if you don't count MU*s, EQ was my first MMO. I played it...a lot. And as a rogue in that game, I put up with an inordinate amount of shit in order to play it - but I didn't care, because I thought it was awwwwsome. Well, until I started raiding anyway. Then I thought the game was boring. This phenomenon is interesting to observe in other people. Some time after I had quit playing the game, a few of my friends started to play. For them, it was their first MMO, but I had already played the game, in addition to a few others. They thought the game was fairly awesome, while I thought it was tired. All the neophytes that have flocked to WoW? Most of them will follow the same pattern eventually. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Rhonstet on December 16, 2006, 01:05:54 PM Really, I think part of the reason so many people love WoW is because it's their first MMO. Lets think back people. What was your first MMO? How much crap did you put up with in that first game, compared to the newer offerings of today? Personally, if you don't count MU*s, EQ was my first MMO. I played it...a lot. And as a rogue in that game, I put up with an inordinate amount of shit in order to play it - but I didn't care, because I thought it was awwwwsome. Well, until I started raiding anyway. Then I thought the game was boring. This phenomenon is interesting to observe in other people. Some time after I had quit playing the game, a few of my friends started to play. For them, it was their first MMO, but I had already played the game, in addition to a few others. They thought the game was fairly awesome, while I thought it was tired. All the neophytes that have flocked to WoW? Most of them will follow the same pattern eventually. I have to strongly disagree, but only with the first sentence. If WoW was a game that followed the regular patterns of casual players eventually getting tired and moving to other games, then we should have seen other games becoming more popular. I don't think what few metrics get collected bear that out. What the metrics seem to say is that WoW is not only getting more people, it is keeping the ones it has for longer, at an impressive ratio. People put up with more in the old games due to a simple lack of options. You took crap because it was all that there was. As more games opened, you had more people flitting from game to game. Then WoW dropped the nuke by setting a high standard. Suddenly a game exists that people don't want to leave, because the other games can't match the standard. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Strazos on December 16, 2006, 05:01:00 PM If WoW was a game that followed the regular patterns of casual players eventually getting tired and moving to other games, then we should have seen other games becoming more popular. I don't think what few metrics get collected bear that out. What the metrics seem to say is that WoW is not only getting more people, it is keeping the ones it has for longer, at an impressive ratio. See the word I highlighted. First, let me ask something...can we agree that a sizeable portion of the WoW playerbase is playing a MMO for the first time? If so, these players being newbies does not exclude them from being...hardcore. EQ may have been my first MMO, but I certainly didn't play it casually. True, a lot of the new players in WoW are casual players. But a lot of others are not. I believe the "WoW = New" factor has a lot to do with their numbers and retention. There are also other factors, such as branding (Warcraft, Blizzard) or polish (though I don't think it's as far-and-away better than, say CoH). But a ton of these people are going at an MMO for the first time - a lot of players hardly even know of other games outside of WoW. Sometimes you can even include games outside of the MMO medium. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Venkman on December 17, 2006, 06:47:36 AM Exactly. WoW showed the world there were more people out there interested in a hardcore experience than previously believed. "Casual" and "diku" do not necessarily mix in the broad sense. Obviously, at specific levels, it can, but that's not really the overall trend (imho of course).
WoW being the first MMO for a lot of gamers doesn't exclude the fact that a lot of EQ (-esque) veterans are also there. It's not a rigid adherance to one game, but it is mostly an intense interest in one type of game. Some of those folks will definitely migrate to LoTRO. Others who came to WoW for PvP may go to WAR. But it's all variations on a theme, the reason why games like Eve are and will for some time remain very niche in comparison to the aggregate experiences. They'll grow as the whole genre grows, but I never foresee a time when Eve-like games become the million-account games while diku is second-order. Even the hugely successful games now talked about here, like, say, Habbo, Maplestory, or Kartrider are fairly related to item-acquisition mechanics not wholly unlike WoW (just with different business models). There's two reasons for that: 1) It's a successful business model. 2) It's successful because lots and lots of people like it. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: stray on December 17, 2006, 07:42:08 AM People would probably stick with Eve if the combat was more visceral, and if the vast amount of things you interfaced with weren't just text and numbers on a virtual stock market ticker.
I don't think that because it's more of a "world", then that's the reason it's outshined by dikus necessarily. The activities in a world can be simulatory and player driven, as well as highly attractive to gaming sensibilities at the same time. It's just a matter of how they're presented and "played". And there is hope for that to happen eventually, I think. Some ideas just get off to a slow start. Look at educational games, for example. The first idea was probably just some drab program with animated flash cards. Kids didn't care one bit. But eventually, someone got smart and made a math game with a singing cowboy frog. And not only that -- a cowboy frog who presents those same old math questions in story-adventure-puzzle format. All of the sudden, kids are dying to learn their multiplication tables. So it will be with virtual worlds. Am I making sense..? No? Anyways... Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: angry.bob on December 17, 2006, 09:42:18 AM Exactly. WoW showed the world there were more people out there interested in a hardcore experience than previously believed. This is exactly the wrong conclusion that people use WoW’s numbers to make. WoW isn’t popular because the post-60 game is raid, raid, and more raiding and people are hardcore. WoW is popular because the 1-59 game is fun and as casual than you can get. Up until you hit 60, you can literally log in for 10 minutes and make progress. Then at 60 they swap out that game for another one that’s vastly inferior. If the game had used the same design theory for levels 1-59 as they did for 60, the game would never have broke a million subscribers. So why do people stay? 1)All other current MMO* are less casual than WoW’s post-60 game from the minute you roll a character. 2) All other MMO* are far less visually appealing. And it’s a damn wide gap. 3)They’ve already spent X amount of time building social connections and don’t want to leave them. 4) Leveling alts from 1-59 is still funner than any other MMO currently available. I’m on my 8th one myself, 7 of which are over 55. It’s still more fun than anything else available. 5) I can name about 20 more reasons that have nothing to do with being “hardcore” and wanting to “work” at a game but there’s no point really. The simple answer is that WoW keeps their numbers because as casual unfriendly it is past 60, there’s way around it, and even then it’s a much better time than anything else available by a factor of 10. Their design direction after 60 is still total shit, their CS is still shit, and their QA is still shit. I’m not in BC beta, but I’m willing to bet the new newbie zones are nowhere near the quality of the original ones. Why? Because the people who did those have probably left too, and the new ones were done by whatever twats are designing stuff now. A raid dungeon so big and l33t that it needs a flight path halfway through? What a fucking waste of resources. Anyway, I have lots more to write, but my wife wants to go to the German festival downtown. 60 degrees in Northern Oho in December…. And people say there’s no global warming too… Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Modern Angel on December 17, 2006, 05:16:57 PM The Dranei and Blood Elf newbie zones are better by an exponential factor than their OG counterparts. And words can't describe how much better the post 60 instances are than anything else in the game.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Margalis on December 17, 2006, 06:41:34 PM I think bob is dead on. If the entire game was the post 60 game it would have 1/10th the number of subcribers.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Morat20 on December 17, 2006, 07:11:21 PM I think bob is dead on. If the entire game was the post 60 game it would have 1/10th the number of subcribers. Judging by the expansion, it appears the Devs note this. A lot more 5 and 10 man instances, the "big raid zone" only being 25 man. Dungeons with difficulty settings, so you can repeat content for better loot.It looks like they're trying to make the endgame a lot more like the 1-59 game and opening up advancement (you advance via gear once you level cap, as usual) via PvP, raids, faction grinds, or running 5-mans. And even with the raids and instances, they're trying to cut down the required "time to advance" by breaking up raid zones into easier to digest parts. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: hal on December 17, 2006, 07:11:51 PM One has to wonder at what Blizzard actually is. After Diablo 2 Bliz north went away. And they weren't assimilated they left. Yet the warcraft titles were polished and cutting edge. By that I don't mean they were new thoughts but were very well done. WOW is the best at craftmanship we have seen yet. Is there a higher up bliz that is singing the it is done when its ready song? What does Blizzard mean and who is it? I am not sure what to pay attention to here. One could argue that a lot of talent would shine under the right direction. That the Dev's that left are better for the experience I would have to believe. But did the soul of Bliz leave?? I ask because I don't know.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Margalis on December 17, 2006, 07:27:39 PM They have the process down. That is the key, and if you read between the lines it is clear that is what they excel in. Great ideas? Not really. Great technical execution? Not really.
Putting out products of a certain threshold of quality is an institutional ability, not an individual one. That's why staff turnover hasn't mattered. I'm sure there are some key people but the institution as a whole just knows how to get the job done. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Morat20 on December 17, 2006, 08:06:53 PM They have the process down. That is the key, and if you read between the lines it is clear that is what they excel in. Great ideas? Not really. Great technical execution? Not really. Which goes back to my gripe a few months ago -- software process matters. Institutional memory matters. Good Devs are vital, but unless you've got some formal process supporting them, they're not going to live up to their potential. It's not just for Devs -- you need management (lower and especially upper) to at least grasp why this is important. Putting out products of a certain threshold of quality is an institutional ability, not an individual one. That's why staff turnover hasn't mattered. I'm sure there are some key people but the institution as a whole just knows how to get the job done. Blizzard strikes me as a professional shop -- in a way a lot of games shops aren't. Too many gaming houses are still too fond of the "five friends in a garage" style of development. Banking too much on personal flair -- when gaming software has gotten to the point where no single person can really carry the game by himself. You might be the most kick-ass designer in the world, but ultimately you're relying on an engine someone else wrote to showcase your design, using art by another person, netcode by another, database design by yet another.....and then you've got management. Management can sandbag process far worse than designers. If the guys that moved to Red 5 carried that process with them -- that professionalism -- then they'll do fine. Skill, talent and vision aren't enough -- it has to be married to a framework capable of delivering on that vision, that skill, and that talent. Blizzard isn't a genius coder, or genius designer, or genius art guy. (They employ them, however!). Blizzard embodies a developmental process. They do want to hire the best -- skill matters too, obviously -- but in the end they have a design process that works far better than their competitors. I do wonder how they'd do with truly original ideas -- would Blizzard even attempt something like Spore? They prefer to refine and polish, distilling the ideas of others into a solid and fun gaming experience -- but they still do innovate. I just suspect true innovation is probably harder for them, which is probably harder on the Blizzard Devs. Everything has to balance, I guess. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Merusk on December 17, 2006, 08:59:47 PM The Dranei and Blood Elf newbie zones are better by an exponential factor than their OG counterparts. And words can't describe how much better the post 60 instances are than anything else in the game. I haven't run the BC instances yet, but I concur on the Dranei and Blood Elf noob areas. The Blood Elf one is now my favorite noob area in the game. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Calantus on December 19, 2006, 05:14:52 AM Why does the game industry have so many people leaving their old teams or teams leaving dev houses all the time to make a new dev house or join a competitor? Why is there so much turnover? It's getting hard to keep up with the who went where and did what when.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: stray on December 19, 2006, 05:26:23 AM Mobygames is usually a good source to find where people are working.
I don't think it's that much different than the film industry (whether it be actors, directors, producers, caterers, operators, grips, etc..). Actually, it's more stable than that. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: UnSub on December 19, 2006, 06:21:21 AM Why does the game industry have so many people leaving their old teams or teams leaving dev houses all the time to make a new dev house or join a competitor? Why is there so much turnover? It's getting hard to keep up with the who went where and did what when. From an outsider's perspective, I think it's a case of you work on a few projects, that's 3 years of your life and you'd like to try something new. Perhaps it's being the big boss at your own development studio because you've got some ideas, perhap you move because someone offers you a pay rise, perhaps you move because your buddies are telling you that company X is a better place to work. I also think it's a factor of teams finishing a project and then looking around for something else to do. If your last release was a big hit or critically acclaimed, I'm sure it's not hard to get doors opened to you. Also: right now, MMOGs are the new messiah for venture capitalists. Got some ideas and a pitch for a MMOG? Go shop it around and get the money thrown at you. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Venkman on December 19, 2006, 09:50:22 AM Look at the type of positions that are being turned over. When there's no new character models to build or new graphics engines to write, what are those specialists to do?
Quote from: angry.bob This is exactly the wrong conclusion that people use WoW’s numbers to make. WoW isn’t popular because the post-60 game is raid I'm not talking about raiders. I'm talking about the concept of becoming nearly addicted to achievement in a world that has no intrinsic value. All of the activities that happened in EQ1 happen here. That tells me WoW succeeded in making the package more palpable for more people. That also tells me the underlying system works. For every player at 60, there's twice as many not. And 60 does not mean raiding, particularly if it took you two years just to get there. Quote from: Stray People would probably stick with Eve if the combat was more visceral, and if the vast amount of things you interfaced with weren't just text and numbers on a virtual stock market ticker. I don't think so. Eve as a concept is much more immersive, far more so than a lot of gamers want. The wrapping of that experience could look identical to WoW, but that wouldn't gloss over the alienating open-ended skills system, the ability to choose to do whatever you want without any real guidance, the loose-to-tough PvP rules, corps/alliances/ownable sectors, and everything else that makes Eve one of the most complex experiences to be had out there. Eve is just hard :) Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: stray on December 19, 2006, 09:55:04 AM Maybe you're right, but I've yet to hear one person who didn't like that game for those reasons. Every single last one of them disliked it because it wasn't Wing Commander/XWvTF/pew pew pew!!!. Including myself.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: HaemishM on December 19, 2006, 09:58:22 AM Eve could have done with a lot more PewPew.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Venkman on December 19, 2006, 03:36:47 PM Maybe you're right, but I've yet to hear one person who didn't like that game for those reasons. Every single last one of them disliked it because it wasn't Wing Commander/XWvTF/pew pew pew!!!. Including myself. Those are UI elements. They could have lowered the barrier to be sure. But even for games more akin to those than Eve (Jumpgate, Vendetta Online), they're just not enjoying appreciable success.Eve has a few main things that keep it niche. I contend chief among them is the immersion. Even if they got Linden Labs to handle their PR and started measuring their success to include everyone who's ever registered to download the client, they still wouldn't have broad appeal. The game is too deep for even the diku crowd, because it provides no clear direction and therefore no clear measure of success to reward time-in. And I say this as someone who loved the game, but realized they couldn't afford the investment it required. Being generic-IP sci-fi doesn't help. But that only serves as another attractor anyway. By itself, IP is not a retainer. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: stray on December 19, 2006, 04:18:37 PM Maybe you're right, but I've yet to hear one person who didn't like that game for those reasons. Every single last one of them disliked it because it wasn't Wing Commander/XWvTF/pew pew pew!!!. Including myself. Those are UI elements.Hah. I really hope that was just a bad choice of words on your part. I mean, would you consider the differences between FPS's and RPG's to just be a matter of UI? Because all space shooters were, in essense, FPS's. Or more like, vehicular precursors to them. The difference between WC and Eve is not UI, but a focus on pilots instead of ships. Quote The game is too deep for even the diku crowd, because it provides no clear direction and therefore no clear measure of success to reward time-in. Yes, the diku crowd are sheep (Sheep in the "like being led" sense. Not necessarily the derogatory/sucker sense....But really, that too). That's still not a rejection of depth necessarily. As for everyone else, I think you're forgetting how daunting even the most dumbed down diku game can be to newcomers at first. Recall your own foray. Many people still don't even understand when and how to put upgraded skills on a WoW hotkey bar. It's not automated, and there aren't any warnings when you're screwing yourself over. Many run around in crap gear without knowing better. Many don't even know that an Auction House exists. Many are both fascinated and timid at the idea of all the players running around. Many don't understand group dynamics. Etc., etc.. It's not like there's a lot of hand holding in WoW either. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: hal on December 19, 2006, 08:19:28 PM I can beat that one. I was working the prevoidwalker quest when a another warlock invited me to group. At pumpkin patch he was working on princess. Some one else pulled the mobs out of the house and I targeted the girl I needed for my quest. I got her but drew too much aggro and went down. I sent him a tell that I would be right back with voidwalker and he asked me how do you get a pet? A lvl 15 warlock and he has no pet. After we disposed of the princess I carried him to northshire pointed at trainer until he got quest then took him to the tent out back cleared the area and let him loot his book. Shaking my head all the while as "how could you be that clueless"?
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Strazos on December 19, 2006, 08:22:31 PM I thought there Was a lot of hand-holding. The quest people have a glowing sign over their head for crissakes.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Morat20 on December 19, 2006, 08:33:14 PM I thought there Was a lot of hand-holding. The quest people have a glowing sign over their head for crissakes. There is. IIRC, to get your freakin' pet as a Warlock you -- and this is a shocker -- take the quest to go talk to the guy. The very first quest you can take is a chain that introduces you to quests, and sends you off to another guy. Sooner or later one of these guys tells you to go speak to the bloody pet trainer.Then again, I've seen level 20 hunters who didn't have a ranged weapon -- or didn't have a pet. It seems fairly obvious that the pet is there to keep the mob far enough away for you to shoot it. I got told to "learn to play" by telling a level 25 hunter he should ditch the newb gun he had and get both a pet, and a better ranged weapon. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: hal on December 19, 2006, 08:52:44 PM I am sure we can all amuse ourselves with stories about WOW players. But thats why I am not playing that game at the moment. I consider COX community to be much better but I have met more than 1 mastermind that pl ayes without pets. "I beg your pardon??" But hey. Its your game, you can play it how you like to.
Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: stray on December 20, 2006, 02:14:03 AM I don't blame those WoW players for being clueless though. It's the game. My only point to Darniaq is that a newb in WoW isn't that much different from a newb in Eve.
Sure, WoW has made better steps at handholding than others, but relatively speaking, it still falls short of what most people are used to. Putting question marks on people's heads is not the "height" of "dumbing-downness". Most people, coming from single player games, are used to NPC's telling them this or that (in audio and animation), how to use this weapon, how to drive this car, and generally just being guided along in a rich narrative. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Venkman on December 20, 2006, 07:35:40 AM Quote from: Stray Hah. I really hope that was just a bad choice of words on your part. I mean, would you consider the differences between FPS's and RPG's to just be a matter of UI? Actually, and you know me enough to know I ain't a troll, that is pretty much what I think. But first, to clarify "UI": it's not just the arrangement of buttons on the screen. It's the point of view, every method of interaction between user and every element, and the overall feedback provided by the system. This is where FPS and RPG differ the most: the method by which information is input and output.At the macro level though, FPSes have been getting compelling stories added to them and RPGs have been getting more action oriented. I understand why both genres were initially separated. But nowadays, there's more overlap than not, except in the players being attracted to each game. This is why I keep hoping something comes from Project Offset, or Tabula Rasa, or wish Planetside was done with some sort of player motivation in it. To me, there's no reason why an MMOFPS couldn't have compelling narrative in it, nor why it couldn't be fantasy-based, nor why an MMORPG couldn't get more twitchy. Look at City of Heroes. Quote Yes, the diku crowd are sheep (Sheep in the "like being led" sense. Not necessarily the derogatory/sucker sense....But really, that too). That's still not a rejection of depth necessarily. No, they're not. Forget WoW for a sec. Eve has grown mostly because the whole genre has grown. Their percentage of accounts across the genre has decreased though. And they enjoyed their spike because of the SWG:NGE fiasco. That is not because Eve is still waiting for its time in the sun. It's because of a clear preference by players that has nothing to do with being sheep. They are not to be ignorant. They just want play a game with clearly defined goals, measures, and rewards. Eve does not have that. I don't mind it. My first MMO was UO after all, which experientially is comparable (7xGM class-based-thinking came later). But Class-based games have been proven, time and again, to be more palpable.The reason I say "forget WoW" is because that does not define the success of diku/class-style games. It's just one part of the larger whole that includes even most "casual" MMOs and just about everything from the Far East. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: LK on January 04, 2007, 05:53:42 AM Besides, they could have 20 million and it still wouldn't change that their QA, CS, art, design, and pretty much every other aspect of their company except raw sub numbers is in the toilet compared to where it was a year ago. You don't really know anything, do you? Then again, with a name like "angry bob", I wouldn't expect positive, light commentary. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: LK on January 04, 2007, 06:06:46 AM Exactly. WoW showed the world there were more people out there interested in a hardcore experience than previously believed. This is exactly the wrong conclusion that people use WoW’s numbers to make. WoW isn’t popular because the post-60 game is raid, raid, and more raiding and people are hardcore. WoW is popular because the 1-59 game is fun and as casual than you can get. Up until you hit 60, you can literally log in for 10 minutes and make progress. Then at 60 they swap out that game for another one that’s vastly inferior. If the game had used the same design theory for levels 1-59 as they did for 60, the game would never have broke a million subscribers. So why do people stay? 1)All other current MMO* are less casual than WoW’s post-60 game from the minute you roll a character. 2) All other MMO* are far less visually appealing. And it’s a damn wide gap. 3)They’ve already spent X amount of time building social connections and don’t want to leave them. 4) Leveling alts from 1-59 is still funner than any other MMO currently available. I’m on my 8th one myself, 7 of which are over 55. It’s still more fun than anything else available. 5) I can name about 20 more reasons that have nothing to do with being “hardcore” and wanting to “work” at a game but there’s no point really. The simple answer is that WoW keeps their numbers because as casual unfriendly it is past 60, there’s way around it, and even then it’s a much better time than anything else available by a factor of 10. Their design direction after 60 is still total shit, their CS is still shit, and their QA is still shit. I’m not in BC beta, but I’m willing to bet the new newbie zones are nowhere near the quality of the original ones. Why? Because the people who did those have probably left too, and the new ones were done by whatever twats are designing stuff now. A raid dungeon so big and l33t that it needs a flight path halfway through? What a fucking waste of resources. Anyway, I have lots more to write, but my wife wants to go to the German festival downtown. 60 degrees in Northern Oho in December…. And people say there’s no global warming too… See I have a hard time with what you write. You hit the nail on the head with your first paragraph, and I think "Ok, there's a guy who gets it." But then you start dissing the hell out of the internal sections of Blizzard that you have absolutely no knowledge of. Really, I'd like what you're saying better if you kept it confined to in-game aspects and didn't say anything about stuff you clearly have no facts and only opinions on. Yes, WoW is extremely popular because of the 1-59 experience. Players are able to join the game and play a mostly solo MMO, only grouping when they want or have to (dungeons), but still keep progressing a character for months at a time. It took me 17 days of playtime (Playtime, not 17 real days) to get my guy to 60. That is way, way more than any other single game I have played. If you have someone who only plays for a little bit each day, they would be kept busy for a very long time. The experience in that section of the game is extremely refined, and no other MMO to date has duplicated it. There are many other aspects of the design (from quests to combat to UI) that *work* in this game that make the experience all the more enjoyable. Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Venkman on January 04, 2007, 06:16:25 AM Yes, but the numbers have only continued to grow after launch. Granted a lot of that growth has come from new territories on their staggered-launch approach (which sorta self-feeds success with a continual generation of hype). But if you take into account their continued growth and the percentage of their playerbase at 60 (at those sites that track things with addons), you can't help but wonder what all those characters at 60 are doing.
They're not all casually raiding ZG/MC They're not all hardcore raiding Naxx They're not all faction farming. They're not all in BG PUGs They're not all in BG premades They're not all playing alts They're not all running a resource-gathering business They're not all crafting But they're doing one or more of those things, or you'd not see so many 60s running around. WoW is no more successful for one reason than any other successful MMOG that came before or after them (since MMOGs are not just measured comparatively when assessing 'success'. You can have 125k subscribers and gain relevant profit if you've scale your business). It's the aggregate experience. 1-59 does not suck, so people don't mind doing it again. But that's not the only option for a casual player. There is life at 60 for the time-starved, if they're interested in finding it. And that's really the core success. They succeeded in making everything more approachable than their predecessors. Now, that's not to say they made it all casual. They just lowered the barrier in enough places to keep veterans in, and have enough content and polish to keep those to the genre interested. I have no idea what their attrition is like, but they seem to be outpacing it with new invites and retention. And I agree: arbitrarily casting aspersions at a developer is disrepectful. And if it is based on fact, then someone's violating an NDA anyway :) Title: Re: Some WoW devs leave, go make Red 5 studios, work for Webzen, profit...? Post by: Ironwood on January 04, 2007, 06:24:21 AM And I agree: arbitrarily casting aspersions at a developer is disrepectful. And if it is based on fact, then someone's violating an NDA anyway :) It's Angry.Bob : His spectrum of respect is different. And that's a good thing. |