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Title: Effing Cool Post by: Evangolis on November 29, 2006, 12:33:12 PM Stuff like this is just utterly cool to me. I suggest following the link, which has a couple of cool pictures, but I'm including the article since they will probably move the link in a week or so.
Ancient calculator demystified at last Greeks’ 2,100-year-old Antikythera Mechanism was used in astronomy (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15953550/site/3000001/from/RS.1/) Quote Scientists have finally demystified the incredible workings of a 2,100-year-old astronomical calculator built by ancient Greeks. A new analysis of the Antikythera Mechanism, a clocklike machine consisting of more than 30 precise, hand-cut bronze gears, show it to be more advanced than previously thought — so much so that nothing comparable was built for another thousand years. "This device is just extraordinary, the only thing of its kind," said study leader Mike Edmunds of Cardiff University in Wales. "The design is beautiful, the astronomy is exactly right … In terms of historical and scarcity value, I have to regard this mechanism as being more valuable than the Mona Lisa." The researchers used three-dimensional X-ray scanners to reconstruct the workings of the device's gears, and high-resolution surface imaging to enhance faded inscriptions on its surface. Precise astronomy The new analysis reveals that the device's front dials had pointers for the sun and moon — called the "golden little sphere" and "little sphere," respectively — and markings which coincided with the zodiac and solar calendars. The back dials, meanwhile, appear to have been used for predicting solar and lunar eclipses. The researchers also show that the device could mechanically replicate the irregular motions of the moon, caused by its elliptical orbit around Earth, using a clever design involving two superimposed gear-wheels, one slightly off-center, that are connected by a pin-and-slot device. The team was also able to pin down the device's construction date more precisely. Radiocarbon dating suggested it was built around 65 B.C., but newly revealed lettering on the machine indicate a slightly older construction date of 150 to 100 B.C. The team's reconstruction also involves 37 gear wheels, seven of which are hypothetical. "In the face of fragmentary material evidence, such guesswork is inevitable. But the new model is highly seductive, and convincing in all of its detail," Francois Charette, a researcher at the Ludwig-Maximilians University in Germany who was not involved in the study, wrote in a related article in the journal Nature. Discovered in 1900 Pieces of the calculating machine were discovered by sponge divers exploring the remains of an ancient shipwreck off the tiny island of Antikythera in 1900. For decades, scientists have been trying to figure out how the device's 80 fragmented pieces fit together and unlock its workings. Previous reconstructions suggested the Antikythera Mechanism was about the size of a shoebox, with dials on the outside and a complex assembly of bronze gear wheels within. By winding a knob on its side, the positions of the sun, moon, Mercury and Venus could be determined for any chosen date. Newly revealed inscriptions also appear to confirm previous speculations that the device could also calculate the positions of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn — the other planets known at the time. The international team, led by Edmunds and Tony Freeth, also of Cardiff University, included astronomers, mathematicians, computer experts, script analysts and conservation experts from Britain, Greece and the United States. The researchers plan to create a computer model of how the Antikythera Mechanism worked and eventually a working replica. The team's findings will be presented in a two-day international conference in Athens and published in Thursday's issue of Nature. © 2006 LiveScience.com. All rights reserved. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: stray on November 29, 2006, 12:38:03 PM I saw a documentary on that thing awhile back. "Effing cool" indeed.
It makes me sad on what the human race might have lost though. There could have been hundreds of ingenious devices like this documented in Alexandria. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Sky on November 29, 2006, 01:12:02 PM They were witches! Burn it all!
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Strazos on November 29, 2006, 01:14:18 PM Boo for no larger versions of the pictures.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: bhodi on November 29, 2006, 01:18:14 PM Yeah, it's very cool. I'm waiting for more information to come out of that two day conference (Nov 30th and Dec 1st), and no one is giving any details.
It doesn't say in that article, but It turns out that the new 3d scanner they brought in was able to read the actual instruction text that was engraved on the machine by angling correctly and making a map of the millimeter indentation of the engraving; they had previously translated only around half of the text, and with this new method all but small pieces were available. With that text, knowing exactly how it's supposed to work, they can reverse engineer the pieces they were having some trouble with. It's really cool stuff and way way more advanced than they had thought. I'm sure wikipedia's page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism) will be updated with the new information once it's released. It also has some pictures for you, Strazos. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Strazos on November 29, 2006, 01:26:43 PM I had a professor in college who is prolly nuts about this.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: HaemishM on November 29, 2006, 01:46:09 PM That does indeed kick much ass, geek style.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Roac on November 29, 2006, 01:56:57 PM Yeah, that thing is awesome. It's just one of dozens of things that the classical world had going for them that put them right on the damn edge of starting the industrial revolution 1600-1800 years before the real thing. We'd have had our flying cars by now.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Strazos on November 29, 2006, 01:58:50 PM And Holodecks! And really good Androids!
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Llava on November 29, 2006, 02:06:17 PM You guys know that thing is going to predict the day the world ends, right?
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Yegolev on November 29, 2006, 02:28:55 PM Jan 1, 2038.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Signe on November 29, 2006, 02:48:46 PM Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Riggswolfe on November 29, 2006, 02:53:41 PM December 12, 2011 according to the Mayans (if memory serves.)
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: stray on November 29, 2006, 02:56:13 PM "I don't know" according to Jesus of Nazareth.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: stray on November 29, 2006, 03:55:47 PM No doubt someone thinks I'm being preachy for even typing that. Haha.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: schild on November 29, 2006, 06:20:59 PM Signe is correct. NBC has registered NBC.tv through 18-jan-2038. Which is to say, on the 19th the world either ends or we're all going to be living beyond the thunderdome.
NOT SHIT! POWER! Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Trippy on November 29, 2006, 06:47:28 PM Signe is correct. NBC has registered NBC.tv through 18-jan-2038. Which is to say, on the 19th the world either ends or we're all going to be living beyond the thunderdome. Jan 19, 2038 is when Unix machines using a signed 32-bit integer to represent time will overflow and flip back dates to 1901.Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Viin on November 29, 2006, 07:02:01 PM Jan 19, 2038 is when Unix machines using a signed 32-bit integer to represent time will overflow and flip back dates to 1901. Awesome, Y2K again! Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: schild on November 29, 2006, 07:02:29 PM But, but, NBC.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Margalis on November 29, 2006, 08:48:28 PM It really is amazing to think that civilization could be very advanced, then backtrack for literally a thousand years. In some ways the Greeks were still more advanced than we are today. (Gays in the military kicking ass and taking names, for example) How the hell does the world as a whole lose huge advances in science, philosophy, medicine and government?
Greeks rule, and by extension so do I. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: stray on November 29, 2006, 09:00:24 PM Greeks rule, and by extension so do I. You're like that old guy in Big Fat Greek Wedding. :-P Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Ironwood on November 30, 2006, 01:15:24 AM The world will end for men on the 1st, but for women it'll take another fucking 18 days just to pick the right End of The World outfit with matching shoes and handbag. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Big Gulp on November 30, 2006, 04:42:22 AM Greeks rule, and by extension so do I. I'll take the Roman viewpoint on things. They may have been clever, but they were effeminate degenerates who deserved to pass under the yoke. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Signe on November 30, 2006, 05:25:49 AM The Romans invented the straight line.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Sky on November 30, 2006, 07:10:13 AM How the hell does the world as a whole lose huge advances in science, philosophy, medicine and government? Bush as president and a republican congress? At least in the modern age, he'll most likely have to step down in two years and end the mini dark age for the US.Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: HaemishM on November 30, 2006, 07:31:09 AM How the hell does the world as a whole lose huge advances in science, philosophy, medicine and government? Someone, somewhere has a vested interest in seeing that those advances are not passed down to the plebians so as not to challenge their particular power. In the Greeks' case, it was the Romans. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Strazos on November 30, 2006, 07:31:42 AM How the hell does the world as a whole lose huge advances in science, philosophy, medicine and government? Ever see Dark Angel? Imagine if the world was hit with an EMP - that would set everyone back pretty far. That's pretty much what happens when your collected knowledge is concentrated in a few people or places. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Ironwood on November 30, 2006, 09:06:13 AM No it wouldn't.
That wouldn't set the advances back, just the society for a bit. The problem is transmission of information in this case, not storage. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Strazos on November 30, 2006, 09:12:42 AM How wouldn't it? The vast majority of our information is stored electronically. Hit the planet with an EMP, and you lose all of it, in addition to the vast majority of anything that includes electronics in its operation.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: HaemishM on November 30, 2006, 09:20:06 AM How wouldn't it? The vast majority of our information is stored electronically. Hit the planet with an EMP, and you lose all of it, in addition to the vast majority of anything that includes electronics in its operation. No, a vast amount is BACKED UP electronically. The important shit is all on non-EMP susceptible paper/microfiche. The facilities exist to rebuild computers with blueprints, and though they may not be dual core monsters, they will be able to start us back up. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Strazos on November 30, 2006, 09:24:09 AM Ok, so we have the designs to rebuild certain things.
What are you going to build WITH when nothing works? You're going to have to rebuild, from scratch. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: HaemishM on November 30, 2006, 09:28:00 AM Hammers and nails, bitches. :-D
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Dren on November 30, 2006, 09:34:45 AM I don't know everything about EMP, but how exactly would it erase hard drives? My understanding is it would knock out anything electronic that is running at the time and that is it. My thought was that the information would still be stored. Just reboot and you're back in business?
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Strazos on November 30, 2006, 09:41:12 AM As I understand it, it wouldn't matter if the device was on or not at the time of the pulse - the pulse itself would fry the circuitry.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Yegolev on November 30, 2006, 11:25:40 AM I don't think you are being preachy... If you read some of the Apocrypha you might believe that Jesus kept some cards close to his chest. So, maybe he knew but wasn't saying.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Yegolev on November 30, 2006, 11:27:28 AM I forgot: SIGNE IS THE COOLEST.
After me, of course. And maybe Righ. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Roac on November 30, 2006, 12:18:14 PM I don't know everything about EMP, but how exactly would it erase hard drives? My understanding is it would knock out anything electronic that is running at the time and that is it. My thought was that the information would still be stored. Just reboot and you're back in business? It wouldn't remove magnetism on a platter, but it would kill circuitry in the disk itself, not to mention the PC it sits in. The biggest problem with a global EMP-like hit wouldn't be whether informaiton exists or not. Even if 90% of the stores of information were destroyed/inaccessible, that's still plenty of places to go to read about it, and I only need to see *one* store of information before I can learn it and teach others. The largest problem is that such a hit would destroy means of production and infastructure. No electricity. Very few cars would work, but no gas lines would transport fuel. No food. No running water. No lines of communication, so no functional government. Imagine New Orleans, but with no one ever showing up to help, and nowhere to evacuate to. No one would air drop food, or hijack a school bus to pick you up. A sizable, and most likely significant majority of the population would die within a few years. Social structure would collapse entirely, and with it almost all traces of higher education, trade, and production. Any books would be subject to burning to keep from freezing to death, unreadable, or simply unusuable. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Lantyssa on November 30, 2006, 12:20:31 PM Any form of EMP strong enough to devastate the world would likely fry humans and most other life as well, whether directly or from residual effects. Having back-ups of any form at that point is rather worthless.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: CmdrSlack on November 30, 2006, 12:22:52 PM Any form of EMP strong enough to devastate the world would likely fry humans and most other life as well, whether directly or from residual effects. Having back-ups of any form at that point is rather worthless. Ah, but you're forgetting the roaches. They could use that information to build a great roach society. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Strazos on November 30, 2006, 05:19:45 PM It wouldn't remove magnetism on a platter, but it would kill circuitry in the disk itself, not to mention the PC it sits in. The biggest problem with a global EMP-like hit wouldn't be whether informaiton exists or not. Even if 90% of the stores of information were destroyed/inaccessible, that's still plenty of places to go to read about it, and I only need to see *one* store of information before I can learn it and teach others. The largest problem is that such a hit would destroy means of production and infastructure. Thanks, that's what I was getting at. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Margalis on December 01, 2006, 02:52:29 AM You're like that old guy in Big Fat Greek Wedding. :-P Never seen it, I have no idea what you are referring to. I will assume the old guy was super awesome, smart, young and handsome. Quote I'll take the Roman viewpoint on things. They may have been clever, but they were effeminate degenerates who deserved to pass under the yoke. So the ancient Greeks were...liberals? Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Ironwood on December 01, 2006, 03:11:02 AM You guys seem to be forgetting about paper entirely. My point still stands.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: stray on December 01, 2006, 06:00:47 AM You're like that old guy in Big Fat Greek Wedding. :-P Never seen it, I have no idea what you are referring to. I will assume the old guy was super awesome, smart, young and handsome. Here are some quotes: Gus Portokalos: There are two kinds of people - Greeks, and everyone else who wish they was Greek. Gus Portokalos: Where are you going? Toula Portokalos: I'm taking a pottery class. Gus Portokalos: Ah! The Greeks invented pottery. Gus Portokalos: Give me a word, any word, and I show you that the root of that word is Greek. Gus Portokalos: Kimono, kimono, kimono. Ha! Of course! Kimono is come from the Greek word himona, is mean winter. So, what do you wear in the wintertime to stay warm? A robe. You see: robe, kimono. There you go! Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Sky on December 01, 2006, 06:55:03 AM You guys seem to be forgetting about paper entirely. My point still stands. But what about when the sun envelopes the earth and burns away all that paper? Huh? What about that!Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Strazos on December 01, 2006, 08:01:51 AM From a historical standpoint, paper is a problem because it can deteriorate over time, at least much faster than stone.
Different problem...just felt like pointing it at. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Roac on December 01, 2006, 08:10:01 AM You guys seem to be forgetting about paper entirely. My point still stands. No, I specifically referenced it. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Margalis on December 01, 2006, 08:01:02 PM Most of our knowledge also exists in the heads of smart people. As long as an EMP doesn't kill them we'll be ok.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Trippy on December 01, 2006, 08:37:13 PM Most of our knowledge also exists in the heads of smart people. As long as an EMP doesn't kill them we'll be ok. If we lose the schematics/blueprints/instructions/etc. we'd still be in big big trouble. It's one thing to have personal knowledge about how to, say, forge steel from raw materials. It's another if you are trying to build a semi-conductor fabrication machine from memory.Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: bhodi on December 01, 2006, 08:53:32 PM First, there isn't a pulse invented that could take out the world. It's a purely line-of-sight weapon. It doesn't go through the earth. The best thing we've got is a nuclear blast to create the thing, presumably we can create a casing to amplify the EMP effect. Now, effects in the lower atmosphere don't radiate much farther than a few dozen miles (air or groundburst at under 10km) so it probably isn't going to be your main focus when you're actually hit with a nuclear weapon. That leaves an orbital detonation.
To hit the west coast and the east coast of the US at the same time, you're looking at higher than the international space station, if it was detonated above Kansas. 300 miles. All major military electronics/installations are TEMPEST shielded (in faraday cages) and are not affected, and would switch to diesel generation with on-site fuel for days or weeks. Communication between them is handled by fiber, which is also unaffected. Satellites would almost certainly be damaged, except possibly military satellites that have been created to specifically resist the damage. If they are in line of sight. On the ground, anything with integrated circuits (computers, cell phones, power stations, etc.) are completely fucked, turned on or not. Fuel injected cars won't start. If anything has an antenna connected to it (any conductive wire of virtually any length) the effects are greatly magnified. It will induce a current in anything conductive, which includes coiled wire within a motor. Things like step transformers (a critical piece of our power infrastructure) would almost certainly explode, melt, or both. The current it induces can melt the material if it's strong enough. It doesn't have to be, though. Destruction of ICs removes our power grid and motorized transport. All solid information is heavily classified, but you can find some decent reports linked on wikipedia if you're interested. In short, if something like that hits, welcome to amish country for a while while the government rebuilds. Fortunately, a non-nuclear pulse generator's emission radius is very small, and even nuclear-generated EMP has a short (comparatively) range thanks to our atmosphere. It's only dangerous if a really big nuke was set off really far off in space, and while it could be as bad as New-Orleans in some areas, not only humanity but likely the US would survive. It's no superweapon; I don't think of 'devastation' but we would probably be crippled. The chances of that happening are obviously pretty fucking remote. As for the original point, data storage, remember not only is optical media completely unaffected and also that our major electronic manufacturing plants are, well, on the other side of the earth :) Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Strazos on December 01, 2006, 09:00:36 PM Well, sure the platters themselves would be fine....if the readers didn't crash into them. That's besides the point that all the stuff that would be used to read a hard disc would be fried.
Amish Country, indeed. We'd be boned. We wouldn't have the capability to do much of anything. Sure, the nukes might not get launched by accident, but pretty much everything else would be zapped. Also, since the bulk of financial records are stored electronically, most everyone's accounts would be wiped. Have fun with that. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Trippy on December 01, 2006, 09:06:11 PM I don't know everything about EMP, but how exactly would it erase hard drives? My understanding is it would knock out anything electronic that is running at the time and that is it. My thought was that the information would still be stored. Just reboot and you're back in business? Electromagnetics was my worse subject in school (apparently the right hand rule was too much for my brain to handle) so I could be off but basically a nuclear explosion generates a huge electromagnetic pulse which in case is a very powerful travelling electrical field. Anything that can conduct electricity that isn't properly shielded will generate a current when the field passes through it. In the case of semiconductors, the field, if it is strong enough, will cause the chips to heat up and short or literally melt from the current surge. I don't know if the magnetic fields that are created as the pulse passes through a typical PC case (electricity and magnetism are two sides of the same coin) would be enough to actually scramble the bits that are stored on a hard drive but like Stratzos said it would fry the circuitry if enough current was generated by the pulse.Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: bhodi on December 01, 2006, 09:07:16 PM Also, since the bulk of financial records are stored electronically, most everyone's accounts would be wiped. Have fun with that. Actually, if we got working computers, we could likely restore from backup a majority of our critical data. DLT tapes, for example (the most popular backup medium,) are not actually effected unless the field was unreasonably strong. They are vunerable to degaussing (think bulk eraser), but that is not the same as a single pulse. It's not actually enough to scramble the actual hard drive platters either. The hard drive circuitry would be destroyed, but the data would still be there, unable to be accessed. Most of the actual damage comes from inducing a current which causes the material to heat up, just like a giant resistor.We're actually lucky that we've moved to optical cable. Even the biggest EMP can't even take down the internet, not only because it simply can't do damage to a large enough area, but also because a lot of the hardware is shielded. It would take out local infrastructure, your cable modem, for instance, but even the internet would survive and heal. We are much less vulnerable than we were 10 years ago in that regard. Your cars are still fucked, though. You'll probably be more concerned with finding where to get food, but having communications infrastructure that survives is absolutely critical to the rebuilding. Edit: yep, I very much like working out disaster scenarios. I'm not sure why. I guess I'm morbid. I read the stand and then researched the minimum number of people that could survive (from a genetic diversity standpoint) if the superflu happened. It turns out that the math for a minimum viability index is dauntingly complicated, but the answer is we'd only need between 1k and 10k to repopulate the earth. We are pretty resilient. This site (http://www.armageddononline.org/) is awesome, if you've never seen it. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Strazos on December 01, 2006, 09:10:49 PM Ah, ok...
It's interesting to just think about what's ifs sometimes. Think of the Anarchy - it would be like the Rapture for angry.bob or something. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Ironwood on December 04, 2006, 09:04:42 AM Batman would save us.
Sigh. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: raydeen on December 04, 2006, 02:12:16 PM An EMP pulse would fry circuitry and destroy data. Ever leave a disk near a monitor or speaker? It was probably wiped a few hours later. Same principle on a larger scale. As for how we lost all that cool pre-tech tech? It was called the Catholic Church and the Dark Ages. Or just blame it on religion in general. You had a group of people who had power through knowledge and were afraid of losing that power so they kept everyone else dumbed down. It could also be that when the Roman empire fell, the economic and social orders collapsed in such a way that education wasn't feasible. Tack on wars, plagues, what-have-you, just trying to survive became the most important thing in your day to day life. It was enough to know how to build a hovel, grow a potato and have a kid or three. Granted, this only accounts for Europe. But had it not happened, holodecks for sure. And Inquisitor.
Now poke holes in my logic as this is all off the top of my head with no real research or study involved. I'm sure I'm wrong on something. Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Chenghiz on December 04, 2006, 02:46:16 PM Literacy through the Dark Ages was preserved almost solely by Catholic monks. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: Strazos on December 04, 2006, 06:25:04 PM Particularly Irish monks, who were some of the sole protectors of any kind of scholastic knowledge for quite a while.
Title: Re: Effing Cool Post by: schild on December 05, 2006, 04:01:31 AM I'll teach you to read if you do your learnin' from this here bible.
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