f13.net

Hey, lurker here :)

As most of you know, WoW gets alot of crap, mainly due to it's addictiveness, casualness and it's popularity.

I haven't played every single MMO out there, but I've had my fair share of experience in MMO's. I feel the general impression is that wow, well, sucks. And being of a compleatly different oppinion; I feel WOW is BY FAR the most polished MMO out there. I know it lacks here and there, but I simply can't get enough. I often feel like wife-at-home waiting for her favorite soap show, just I control how much and when I want to watch it. Self-created drama, the works, stuff to do, friendships to forge, and the best? I can log off whenever I want to.

Well, that's how I feel it, why all the downtalk? Sure it doesn't promote emergent gameplay, but I find myself breaking the game with my friends daily, isn't that emergent gameplay in itself?

Answers? Discussion?

I don't think WoW is bad .. it is fun, really. But for those of us who have been playing MMOs (MUDs back in the day) for awhile, we want something that has a bit more depth. WoW is fun, but I get tired of it after a going through the quests - there's nothing left to do once you reach 50ish except gang bang the same dungeons over and over.

And PvP isn't viable until higher levels and the catasses always have the uber gear.

If I wasn't playing Eve I might still be playing WoW on and off, but every time I *don't* play WoW I feel like I'm falling way behind - I don't like that. With Eve I can take a month or two hiatus (or even a year! which I did) and come back with a fresh outlook and jump right back into the fray.

Personally, I like PvP oriented stuff just because I get bored with pre-generated content after a month or two. WoW's PvP is weak (or was when I stopped playing and I don't want to grind to higher levels now) so it doesn't hold my interest. Same thing happened with CoH - fun for awhile, but the grind and missions got boring after a couple of months (this was before arenas and "light" pvp).

I can't answer as to why WoW sucks, because I enjoy playing.  I started playing muds long ago and have played a few other mmos.  WoW is the one that holds my interest more than any other. 

But WoW is not perfect, and not the best at any of the major components in MMOS, (other than the most important one - it works and it is polished).

The pvp is better in DAOC, imo, but the pve suck is too great a price to pay since ToA went in. 

The combat is better in CoH but the missions and world are far less interesting. 

The crafting system in SWG was better but the rest of the game... we don't want to start going there.

The economic game is (I've heard) better in EVE but I don't want to be a spaceship.  I enjoy the auction house game in WoW, although I do wish there was more of a trading element to it (maybe PotBS will come through on its promises).

After 2 years, I've been very happy.  The changes in the game have come at a slow pace, but the game is not buggy.

I think the reason WoW is so successful is because it pretty much delivers as promised.  Bugs are few and far between, as opposed to the normal state of most mmos.  It's relatively uncomplicated and easy to get into.  There's plenty to do solo, even if you're not a raider (I'm pretty much not).  It's kind of like the McDonald's of the mmo world.  The product may not be the best tasting, freshest ingredients, or most healthy, but the execution and delivery of that product is almost flawless (particularly since the server problems have largely been eliminated).

Even if a person doesn't like WoW, the upside is that Blizzard has raised the expectations of mmo players.

I've learned to dislike WoW after playing for over a year, but I freely admit it's well designed and well implemented game.

The relative popularity of this game has thrust the MMOG genre into the public light, moreso than any game of its kind. There's a spriit of individuality that seems lost when you're part of such a large community. It's a cold antiseptic feeling, and is the same thing that keeps me from going to Wal-Mart when I need groceries. It's that spark that's missing when granny's cookie recipe gets mass-produced and doesn't taste the same even though you used all the same ingredients.

This overwhelming popularity also attracts an inordinate number of new players, many of which are new to the genre entirely. As much as I dislike admitting it, I take my gaming pretty seriously. I spend time pondering my strategies and configurations and find myself frustrated having to interact with those who couldn't care less on a daily basis. The lack of monthly fee on Guild Wars had this same effect on the community and turned me off, as well. I want a game to challenge the mind in a way that attracts those who want to stop and think.

There's another part of me that doesn't want to admit that WoW is a great game because I want something different, something better. Continuing to play for the sake of 'progress' only validates the model WoW has polished and perpetuates the same design for future games. I want to believe that there can be a game that can meet all of my expectations, which simply isn't possible. But a boy can dream, can't he?

All of these reasons are more instinctual than logical, making them difficult to argue. On paper Blizzard has created the one game to rule them all, but it just doesn't feel right in practice. I'm starting to suspect I'm just one of many who can't stay in love with one game for too long. It's the clash of finite quality content and too much time to play.

Haha.

Maybe you've been reading the Vanguard boards too much -- No one here would criticize WoW for being too addictive, casual, or popular. We are not masochists. Those are good things.

At this particular site, the dislike for WoW is mainly due to a general dislike of EQ-ish/Diku games. Not WoW specifically. Sure, WoW is polished. It does a great job of being the type of a game it's supposed to be -- It's just that that type of game, that subgenre of MMO's, isn't very appealing to some of us. Some of us never found it appealing to begin with, and some don't find it appealing now simply because it's been done a few dozen times already.


You can do that in any MMO. Even shitty ones.

The folks here that dislike WoW either Dislike MMOs alltogether, and would be happier with single-player/ multiplayer games that DO deliver everything they ask for, but have an ending; or are looking for another UO, without realizing that day isn't going to come for whatever reason. (The financial success of Diku's probably being the biggest reason, though.)

Some of that may be true Merusk, but I think you're simplifying it a bit. As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't talk about MMO's at all if all I wanted was rich singleplayer and/or small multiplayer experiences. I'm still interested in MMO's because the whole "massive" idea still appeals to me. It goes hand in hand for my love of all things Internet. I can even forgive a lot of flaws in the genre simply because that's the one thing other games can't deliver.

All I want though is for those two worlds to meet. Which will happen eventually. Diku MMO's, relatively speaking, haven't been so successful as to completely solidify their dominance over the genre. Seven million subscriptions in WoW may seem like a lot in this, relatively young, genre's terms. But in the big picture of gaming, it isn't Sims, Mario, Pokemon, Madden, Quake, or hell....even
Warcraft or Diablo. There's still much to do, and many, many, many, many more gamers out there to cater to.

I don't think we flak WoW any more than any other MMO, or any other topic for that matter.  :evil:

The board elders summed it up pretty well.  WoW is a great PvE MMO with a nice shallow learning curve and slick implementation.  WoW is also the same EQ/Diku treadmill that gets so incredibly o l d after awhile, with PvP a tacked on afterthought.  I still play semi-frequently but I am oh so very ready to get involved in another MMO, IE - WHO or AoC.

I love WoW because it's polished, pretty bug free, has a highly customizable interface, has a style I like in both writing and graphical presentation, and even the highest end catassery is no where NEAR as awful as EQ and its ilk's.

If WoW is McDonalds then most other MMOGs are those local restaurants that have one good dish but everything else they make fucking sucks, so calling WoW McDonald's is doing it a favor.

I would say WoW's polish and general lack of game stopping bugs is my biggest draw since I haven't played another MMOG that hasn't been a bug ridden piece of shit or painful to look at/play. I was all excited to beta  :nda: and then it turned out to be painfully boring, ugly, and generally a chore to play. Every bug I noticed had already been pointed out, and I couldn't get any motivation to keep myself grinding on, even for the good of helping squash bugs before release.

It's not perfect, but it's good enough for now.

I think that pretty much sums it up for me, too.

I thought you and bhodi really enjoyed it? Both of you are some of the few here who actually raid, have large guilds, and have played longterm. Yet, you make it sound like you're only "kind of" having fun.

Don't get me wrong, the comment wasn't directed at f13 in particular (which I find refreshingly liberal), but to the general "hardcore"-gamers view. More to the "hardcore"-MMO-Gamer. I know 100% that WoW adds very little new to the genre, but why "hate" the king of a genre you've been playing for... 10+years? Would you say the whole EQ/Diku-genre is dead?

The format isn't dead.  If you look at WoW as the current endform of DiKU then centrainly not.  DiKU > EQ > WoW.  And WoW is an incredibly successful venture.

My "hate" for WoW stems from exactly the fact that I've been playing basically the same game for 10+ years.  I'd love for an MMO with another dynamic to take hold.  The problem with WoW is that it is now so financially viable that it puts a blanket of uncreativity over the MMO industry.  I like WoW, but I don't like the fact that it's actually the almighty dollar that drives how games are created, hence my hatred-of-the-tools for WoW.  I know it's stupid to wish that something in our world might actually be created due to something other than money however.  :-(

The "hardcore" (Not "hardcore gamers", mind you. They're not gamers.) would be the insane Vanguard fanboi's I mentioned in my first post. They don't like it simply because they're just that: Insane. And masochistic. Their complaints stem from the fact that they like Diku and achievement based games too much. Not too little. WoW may be Diku and achievement based, but they don't like it because it isn't time consuming and restrictive enough. That it's dumbed down and "too easy" (as if any Diku was "hard" to begin with).

(http://www.rodentcontrol.com/images/nomore-mole.gif)

(http://www.apples4theteacher.com/images/st-patricks-day-books/the-st-patricks-day-shillelagh.jpg)

Going to have to agree on that also.

I could tell you why WOW sucks but it would take a lot of effort on my part and I'd probably end up explaining it badly.

^sup

For who/what? What's this all about?

Bam. Nailed it. I don't play WoW anymore - I have a 60 rogue and a 60 Warlock - but I'll probably pick up the XPac. I liked WoW for a lot of reasons - and bear in mind I was a 'hardcore' DAoC/SB player - but primarily I like the fact WoW introduced POLISH to the genre. Now mind the only MMOG i'm currently subscribed to is EVE but I have huge respect for Blizzard for the fact they delivered an accessible, POLISHED, entertaining DIKU. Do I want something new from the MMOG model? Sure fucking do! But if you're going to build a DIKU MMOG then do it right. Which Blizzard mostly did. Moreso that anyone else by far. And that's why I like it. Because it's fun, accessible and polished. Sure it has huge issues - PvP is foremost in my interest - but it's miles beyond what anyone else has delivered to date.

Why do I dislike WoW? Let me list the ways:

 - I already played the game before. It was called EverQuest.

 - It adds nothing new. It simply cherrypicked a few features from this game and that game.

 - Even with those millions of players, the game feels...lonely for some reason. There's Barely any reason to group with anyone. And when you do group...

 - The community sucks. It sucks hard. I dislike the "general" WoW player so much it hurts. They're stupid...Very Stupid.

 - The game takes no real skill (to me). Zero.

     - Especially the PvP. Warlocks and Mages maybe take a bit...perhaps. But really, PvP comes down to Gear and Levels (and levels = time played). The person playing that Ashkandi-wielding floppy-earred Night Elf could be a slobbering idiot (and he probably is), but 9 times out of 10 I reckon, he'll win any PvP encounter. Simply because he sits around on his ass a lot to get the gear. Not Tough.

 - The talent trees only really give the illusion of diversity, when in reality, there are only 2 or 3 viable builds for each class (usually). And one of them is probably a PvE raid build, so in PvP, you maybe have 2 options. This is compared to a game like Guild Wars or Eve where you have Many more options available to you.

 - Did I mention the playerbase is a bunch of chucklefuck jackass retards?

 - With the success of WoW, a lot of studios are now going to want to cash in on the trend, so expect to see a good number of clones for the next 5 years or so. Thanks Blizzard, gg creativity.

...Yeah, just a short list.

EDIT: To me, people getting all crazy about WoW is like being all crazy over the Honda Civic. Sure, there were econoboxes before the Civic, and even now you have your alternatives. Honda puts together a very tight package with that car...which is great, if that's what you're looking for. But it's still just a Civic. A lot of people here, perhaps, want something more.

Bah - Drunk posting = bad. Original edited. Move along...

Strazos - I don't disagree with most of your points, particularly the PvP issues. But honestly, you haven't already played this game and it wasn't fucking EQ. I don't have to explain why - you know why. Yes, there's iterative and intentional similarities but as someone who played EQ shortly after launch you can't tell me their the same game just because they're both DIKU MMOG's. That's bullshit and you know it - primarily due to vastly different interpretations and intents re: "the vision".

The other point I think you're way off on is the whole "WoW takes no skill" argument. Um, MMORPG's to date take almost 0 individual skill. Would you argue otherwise? Compared to a multiplayer session of FPS or RTS? The skill in MMORPG's is in the development of group tactics and organization. Admittedly Shadowbane took more skill that way but to generalize that WoW takes no skill is just funny to me. These are not games based on individual player skill. Period.

On the PvP and community comments however I tend to agree with you. The community is undeserving of the label. And yes - WoW's success may influence future development efforts. I agree that's not the direction we were hoping this would go. But fuck, you're going to blame a developer for that? We bought the fucking thing.

Grind up, do instances, get led along on a leash on raids for the minuscule chance of some loot, just so you can do more raids (rinse and repeat ad nauseam)? That sound about right? That's similar enough for me for it to be a huge turn-off. Sure, I'll concede that some of WoW's instances are novel the first time. Beyond the 3rd? The game then acts like a sleep-inducer for me.


Eve and GW, I believe, take more skill in PvP, though admittedly a lot of the skill applies to pre-fight loadouts. Perhaps it's just the feeling I get that I don't really have to Try or Think when I PvP in WoW. And group tactics? Like what, "everyone assist on me," "FF the clothies first," "hold the middle," or "OMG ZERG RUSH KEKEKE ^_^" . Hell, you can hardly even use terrain in WoW due to the ease of targetting, hugeass nametags, and practically nonexistant collision detection.

No, not really. It's the people funding the projects who will be harping on the success of WoW and be clamoring for me-toos of it. "Hey, WoW made money hats. We want money hats too! Hey, you game guys....make us something like WoW! And you better get it out of the door on time, or we'll impale your children on pikes and place them on the highways...as a warning to other game guys, that not getting a game out by the totally arbitrary date we have set is dangerous! Screw the bugs, just patch it next year; I'm balding, so I need my money hat NOW!"

[Remember, this is all my Opinion. The OP asked, and so they recieve.]

The OP with his 4 post count and invitations for us to discuss WoW.  Needs material I think.

I find most MMO communities to be filled to the brim with idiots. I honestly never played MMOs to be "with' the community, I do it to hang out with my guild, magically piss an entire server off (we're 4/4 at the moment), and maybe get my jollies off writing a guide to a class no one cares about. Also, with a community as bad as WoW's, isn't it better that you're not compelled to group with people? At least in comparison to the gaggle of retards in CoH/V and having to put up with them.

I'm kind of on the fence on the skill thing. On one hand, some of my guildmates that are consistently good PvPers in other games are able to still pull some insane stuff off in comparison to other guildmates with the same gear. Personally, I'm almost always a good healer (PvP or PvE), part of that comes with practice, but it also seems that leadership/communication skills and some personal skill come into play.

On the other hand, there are times where I am simply out muscled by gear where, faced with the same situation but without the gear disparity the situation would have been very easy (Rogue with Thunderfury, etc. versus a Rogue with T0-1). When there's a massive gear imbalance, then skill doesn't come into play much. When there's even an inkling of parity, that's where skill shines though. That personal skill if any is multiplied by the much more important communication and teamwork though. For me, the coordination required to be effective isn't as huge as in say, MxO or L2 where I played area healers and had to be extremely touchy on positioning. In WoW it's more: run around, PW:S/Rejuv, main heal, DoT, all while basically watching my raid overlay, running around like a chicken with its head cut off.

On player variety... comparing WoW to EVE is simply unfair. Still, 30 or so main templates (each with varying compatibilities with different gear) is still superior to the few flavors of the month at the Tech 2 level. (I consider the newbie EW platform as pertinent here as a Shadow leveling build, both are not the end goal of a character.)

Well - EVE is the only MMOG I currently mantain a sub for and I do agree WoW PvP is shite. However there's not a lot of skill in the actual combat in EVE - it's about being in the right mix of ships with the right equipment for an encounter most of the time. In my experience EVE - while more complex in the setup - is a great example of the fact that skill in these games is about the preperation and organization - not the execution of the fight itself.

That said - EVE is  terrific example of how a cohesive and non-asshat community can enhance the enjoyment of a game. I've had some terrific interactions in EVE, particularly from people who've killed me. Many have spent time afterwards to help me understand where i went wrong and what i could try next time. Even those who just ganked and ran usually had something intelligent and funny to say. WoW's playerbase is appalling.

In the spirit of the wow forums.. qft!! ololololololololol!!11

Ahem. Seriously, I don't think anyone claims that WOW is the best / most innovative mmog evar. But all other games (the ones out right now, and the ones about to release soon) suck, and more importantly, it's fun. Even for us second-class citizen non-raiders.


-- Z.

What Flak ?

Lack of perspective I guess. Compared to the treatment other MMOGs get, we are positively felating WoW. But how should he know?

I've been subscribed to WoW since rollout (though I no longer pay for 2 accounts, just 1 now...). I've never hit > level 50 as I've taken months at a time off, and recently I started again anew with RL friends on a different server and different realm (Alliance instead of Horde). I think I've played every class to level ~40 except paladin and warrior.

I like WoW. It is what is is. It's the premiere Diku-MUD, ala EQ. But EQ was broken and much of the game incomplete (at least that was the state of the game >= 2 years after rollout). Quests broken, spells broken, skills non-functional and never repaired, zoning bugs that were still in evidence 2+ years after, terrible class alterations in attempts to balance gameplay, etc.... WoW is the most polished and bug free (relatively speaking) MMO to date. DAoC came close, but in comparison, was like a can of opened soda that sat in the fridge for a day... ...in contrast to others, WoW offers:

* Lots of quests that actually work

* A game instead of a virtual world

* Cool dungeons and detailed rendering of world NPCs with campy bits to boot. I reckon some arn't enthralled with the Blizzard canon, but I enjoy it, and it's a big enough world that takes some time to see everything. Even so, there are nooks and crannies in zones that you might miss, and they are all artfully done.

* PvP+, though I detest the RvR style. I really want to kill members of my own side and think such alliances and faction +/- should not be hardcoded (at least able to be changed). Still waiting for religious faction v. religious faction (or house v. house) in one of these games ...

* Cool spell/skill effects and the Diablo-esque nifty item bazaar...

* Skills and spells that arn't broken
 
* It runs on my Macs. (though so did Shadowbane and ATITD) In fact, it runs well on a nearly 4 year old powerbook...

About the only criticism I have of Blizzard is the long wait for expansion and the lack of a different PvP+ model than has been given.

Ah  NOW the thread has started going in the direction I was expecting.

Now then, for those complaining "i've played this game for the last 10 years/ before"; it's a level-based MMO.  I don't see you bitching about the latest RTS, TBS, FPS or platformer.  Evaluate the game for the genre & type it is, not your wishes and dreams. The paring-down that Strazos did to compare WoW to EQ can be done to any game, ever.  "Fuck Monopoly, it's just tossing dice and money-management."

Too often there's people comparing DIKUish MMOs to completly different genres, like Fighting games or platformers.  "Man this is stupid, I can't dodge bullets" "I can't oneshot combo" whatever.  It's a case of you projecting your wants into a different game system.  My personal bitch about RTS's is the units are stupid mindless pieces of crap that need extreme mico-management.  There's no AI and the little fuckers would wander solo or one at a time into large forces if you didn't keep an eye on everything they did.   Is that a flaw in the genre - as some would say for an MMO - or is it just me wanting the game to be about something other than it is, micromanagement.

Not that WoW doesn't have it's own flaws.  Large-group raiding - while something I enjoy and participate in - shouldn't be the only way to get good gear.  That's even more true if you're trying to make PvP your endgame the way Blizzard is, but from the stuff going in with BC it seems like they're learning that.. slowly.

  The dev team also has blinders for certain classes and situations, like endgame-geared-Warriors in PvP vs almost anyone and battleground win/ loss scenarios... or won't address them publicly if they AREN'T really an issue, because they alone have the broad-view data. (Horde pug always wins WSG, Alliance always wins AV.)

Cal addressed the community stuff.  The problem really is the popularity.  I haven't noticed any more assholes than I did in any other MMO.  The biggest difference is the people in WoW are all very self-centered.  Most I've encountered come from single-player backgrounds instead of other MMOs, so they're not used to having to realize that toon isn't a character it's another person who needs that stuff just as much as you do, so don't get so damned greedy w/ the loot.

   MMO vets worked that out years ago, in systems where they'd actually be punished by public censure for being such a shithead.  I'd say that's something that's a "flaw" in WoW but only because it's made the wrong metagame assumptions.  Coding for/ implementing a different looting or itemization system would work to help it.

WoW takes skill - you only have to watch a few dozen new players or do one or two PUGs to realize that.  The difference is it's a level of skill below where most folks on this forum are.  Things that seem mind-bogglingly simple seem to elude the grasp of many wow players. Things like why lightwell or 'improved death' are bad talents for healers and points better used elsewhere.  Why DPS warriors need agility not just str/ stam, or why int is important as a pally. 

As to the future of development.  If folks start making actual money at 'world' games (UO's too old for the $$ guys to care now, and was tossed-aside as soon as EQ hit 200k) then you'll see them be developed.  EvE's done very well for itself, but it's still too small for big money to care.  I'd love to see a few world games, but at the same time I don't because in a "World" each limitation (technological or rule-based) always jars me.

 I know I personally wouldn't be happy with a 'world' until it can hit holodeck-level for customization, changes, etc. (Not necessarily the interface)  Only being able to make 12 kinds of shirts or four house-types makes sense in a 'game' world... not so much in a "world" world.

Pretty much everything I was going to say has already been said, except...
Diversity. While WoW, in the short term probably will stifle innovation I suspect that over a longer timeline it may just foster it.

I mean, unless your Diku-MMOG is going to be better than WoW it will not make WoW's numbers (the same way that it took WoW to finally put a stake through EQ''s heart). A few big failures (*cough*LOTRO/Vanguard/Warhammer*cough*) and game studios might just have to start proposing alternatives to WoW/EQ-Clones, if only because the common viewpoint among publishers would be "That market is saturated, do something else".

I don't desire Diku to be anything other than what it is at least. I desire MMO's to be something other than what they generally have been. There's a difference. I don't wish Diku to implement ideas from platformers or fighting games -- I wish MMO's did. Diku can go on remaining Diku.

All you WoW PvP haters who are tried of getting steamrollered by groups in epics should try a 19 or 29 BG twink. It's not hard to put together a well geared twink, and then you know longer need to worry about being out-epiced. You're also safe from mudflation in the expansion.  In BG5 we usually have 20ish level 29 WS instances running at prime time, and about half that number of ABs.

http://www.battlegroundforums.com/forum/index.php (http://www.battlegroundforums.com/forum/index.php)

My guild has recently formed a Nintendo themed level 19 twink team.  Megamangina, Excitedike, Zeldatits, Duckunt, and the crew are having a freaking blast.  It's a nice change of pace from raiding.

You either have to grind up a toon so you can grind for cash and farm instances to gear the twink, or buy gold from the Chinese.

Yah, in time management. Juggling your job, gf, and WoW is bound to make you lose at least one of them.

WoW made us happy.  But, if there's one thing people here hate at all costs, it's happiness.  So we obsess about minutae until we blow them up into something hate-worthy.  Then we aren't happy anymore, which makes us very happy. 

Capiche?

The only reason I can't play WoW anymore is because I despise huge raids, and that's all there is to do at the high-end game.  I also dislike how grindy it gets at high level and how loot-centric the game is.  But it's the big raids that just kills the game for me.  From 1-59 I loved the game.  Not enough to just keep rerolling new characters though, so I cancelled and haven't really missed it.

Lack of content/polish/content.

Just a prediction, I'm not in any of their betas.

I don't think so.  You guys are too paranoid. 

Not we are not! Why do you say that? Whats your agenda? I think you are up to something!

That's not really the issue though. As someone who had a full epic rogue before i left the problem is not soley with the gear imbalance. It's with the design of the PvP environment. Take DAoC as an example - while a RR1 noob would get owned by rr10 ToA'd players, it was still fun because the design allowed for a player to make an impact on the gameworld by taking part in PvP. That goes triple for Shadowbane. WoW's gear imbalances coupled with the college football style BG's and a retarded honour system result in a totally flawed PvP environment.

Has anyone seen this yet? 

Well, that should put an end to those 3 minute ABs and 5 minute AVs.

I want this to work so much, but I have the feeling it is going to be as awesome as Meeting Stones.

I want to stab whoever thought meeting stones was a useful, good idea in the face.

Same goes for global LFG chat.

Am I the only one that found the art in WoW, polished as it is, to be too cartoonish? Any number of reasons posted above are also the reasons I can't play WoW, but for me the greatest initial barrier was the childish art style. Don't get me wrong, I got over it, played for a few months, then quit for all the aformentioned reasons. But the cartoonish graphics are a big turn off for me.

I liked the graphics in that it allowed the game to be very smooth. Also, it enables casual gamers and new comers to play without a top gaming PC, which is another reason why WoW has been so succesfull.

The cartoonyness bothered me at first, but I was over that in a few weeks.  I'd rather have a smooth game than a beautiful one with jerky motion - unless they make a game using the engine that built Oblivion.  I'd put up with a lot for that. 

I actually quit wow last time around because of the LFG channel. I was doing SM and needed groups, but it really wore down my interest in the game to listen to that idiocy day after day. I have no clue why they can't put in an LFG system like every other game on the planet.

WOW's a great polished game. I love the art.

For me it's great failing is it doesn't have enough socialization and grouping and the community is so immature and horrific that you wouldn't want to group with them anyway. Which for a social gamer like me is really bad.

I want to like WOW incredibly though. I find it very appealing, though some of that is probbaly that it's the big thing that all my friends (and everyone else) are playing. I keep resubbing, getting tired of it after a month or two, and drifting out.

Overall though, I think the concensus is that it's a pretty good game. The volume of people bitching about this or that in it has more to do with the volume of people playing it than anything else.

Wow, lots of posts since I last looked at this thread.


I'm having fun playing WOW until a better game comes along. There are obviously things WoW could do better, and there are things that a game could do that would make me want to play it more than WoW. So yeah, WoW is fun, but it's not my Robot Jesus, and there's nothing keeping me from jumping ship for a better game.

Same. I like to bitch about it, but my bitches are minor game-mechanics related gripes, not "I can't log in!" or "The game goes to 2fps when more than 5 people are around" gripes. It's not my robot jesus, and I play more for my guild community than for the greater mouthbreathing populace or the game itself. It's a good way to waste time, but I have absoloutely no ties to it. I'll jump ship when something better comes along. I've pre-ordered the expansion, obviously, but I've got my eye on Age of Conan and Pirates of the Burning Sea. We'll see this time next year.

Unlike the retard rocks, global lfg chat is actually a non-insane idea that *could* be implemented well.

The problem is that it's the only global channel, so all the retardery moves there.  If WoW had a bunch of serverwide channels and cross-server channels (like EQ did FIVE FUCKING YEARS AGO), the global lfg channel would be much better.  As it is, it's a lot better than the stones.

They are supposedly adding a regular lfg system with the expansion.  I actually prefer a lfg channel(s), iff there were other global channels.

(http://xs307.xs.to/xs307/06402/lfgrc6.jpg.xs.jpg) (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs307&d=06402&f=lfgrc6.jpg)

At long bloody last.

The only reason I can think they keep the meeting stones is they are some high-level Dev's baby and HE thinks they're just FANTASTIC, screw you non-believers.  I still remember all the various threads asking for the LFG system from EQ/ COH/ whatever and detailing them very well.  Why they went with the stones...  *shrug*.   Whatever the reason it's incredibly stupid, and they just keep making it worse, not better.

WoW's fun for me, and I can plan what I'm doing or get things done in the amount of free time I have available.  That's all that matters to me.  Kids keep you home a LOT - as some of you are beginning to find - so these 'social lives' you all have now.. feh.

Were I childless, single, or in a guild that didn't plan things, I could possibly understand some of the gripes.  As it is now, things are great.  :-D


You're not the only one, no.  Many folks have cited this before.  Personally, I love 'em as I've always been a fan of Blizzard's blocky modeling style.   I'm not a fan of 'realistic' models that have no life.  Would it be nice if we could get some of Blizzard's flair in high-polycount? Sure... but then if I really cared a lot about graphics over anything else I'd be in L2 as I think it's the most beautiful MMO out there right now.  Guild Wars is a close second.


Added:

Good lord that's an ugly interface window.  Hopefuly it's real and will be cleaned-up and not just someone's fake.

You guys are mixing up two things: The graphics engine, which in Wow's case is great, in fact, awsome, and the art used with that engine. I don't need a high poligon count.

With regards to the criticism that you'd rather have cartoonish and vibrant vs realistic and lifeless, I would agree, but those two need not be mutually exclusive, l don't think.

I was about to post a self important suggestion about a plug-in that parsed the LFG channel and displayed a UI overtop of it when I saw that pic

what is it?!

The meeting stones are social engineering I think, limiting the players ability to discriminate on who is in their groups. Of course it shows a massive disconnect in how much the players want precisely that.

There is an add-on LFG system, called "Call to Arms". I tried it, but on most servers there's not a critical mass using it. Even if it's a good solution it can't compete with the "official" solution that is a default on everyone's UI.

I think the Meeting Stones reflect Blizzard's hardon for "real" interface things.  Your keyring isn't like EQ's abstract ring, it's an actual, physical keyring.  Same with the mail and the auction system and the resurrection angels.  They don't want you to do anything with slash commands or pop windows or anything resembling them if at all possible.  It's still fucking retarded as hell, though.

Back in beta, they had EQ's old-style LFG tags, and took them out. 

That's right, I knew they had some system, but couldn't remember exactly how it worked, just that I'd use "/who" to access it.  It worked great; I have no idea why they ditched the idea come retail.

That's what I've always thought was the weird part about WOW. They do all these things right and then just some things are so obvious and they just can't manage to do them.

I have never understood the people who rag on WoW's graphic style and then play any of the other largely ass-ugly MMOGs on the market.  Only Guild Wars, CoH/V (the character models only), and Eve Online qualify as not being 5 years behind the times.

There are too many games out there for that assessment to even fly. L2, EQ2, FFXI, DAoC, DDO, AC2, Auto Assault, RYL, Ryzom, MXO, Archlord, Uru, Silk Road, and whatever Korean games I've failed to mention are equivalent to the games above (in graphics terms, that is). In some cases, even better.

[edit] Just to be clear: I have nothing against WoW's graphics. I'm just replying to your particular comment.

I think WoW's spell effects kind of suck though. Even Shadowbane's were better.

Some of those games are outright terrible, and at least in the case of MxO, would run like absolute ass (although that wasn't a graphics issue as much as other things).

That said, I prefer WoW's style to a few other games (especially with WoW's female characters being decent compared to MxO's techno-hookers).

The truth is, almost all MMO's are using 5 year old graphics technology. Even the Unreal engine, which L2 uses, is getting old. EQ2 is probably the only thing that could qualify as "new".

Uru might be 3 or 4 years old. Either way, I think it's the best looking MMO. It's a great combination between realism, stability, and style.

Ryzom, like WoW, doesn't have a great engine, but it's got a lot of charm, I think. Kind of falls in the same category as WoW.

Dude, EQ2, DAoC, AC2, and all of the L2 knockoffs look like shit on a stick.

FF11 has some artistic flair in character models and some set locations but it's hard to even look at in some areas.

The rest I haven't really played.

AC looks like shit. AC2, at least when played, wasn't so bad. From what I remember, some areas looked pretty good (the jungles especially). At the very least, it was still a good enough engine that Turbine decided to recycle some of it for DDO.

EQ2 models and armor look like shit, but the rest of the game (i.e. the environment) hardly does. There's a lot more you can do with EQ2's engine than you can with WoW. It's not five years behind the times. You still need top of the line hardware to get the most out of it. Which was my only point.

Old DAoC looked like shit. The new one is not that bad. To say, for example, this this (http://www.darkageofcamelot.com/screenshots/drss12.html) is so much worse than WoW is silly. It's not amazing, but WoW isn't better.

/shrug

Whatever. I think the "shitty graphics" label should really go to AO, EQ, and SB.

The spell effects in WoW have flashes of brilliance, but I think they toned it down to keep things at a 'reasonable' level for older machines.  Sad, because I'd like the option to crank them up a bit.   The fire-harnessing effect around a mage/ lock's hands, the 'seal' effect of Paladins (it just 'fits' the spell-type.) and the arrow/ bullet stuff, all fantastic.  The actual spells as they hit, though.. bleh.


I wasn't confusing the two.  Like I said, I like the blocky, stylized graphics.  It just 'feels' right to me.  I can understand why some wouldn't enjoy it, though.

You're right that vibrant and realistic don't have to be mutually exclusive.  L2 and GW are both realistic and vibrant.  The characters feel far more alive than anything out of Vanguard, EQ2, etc which also go in the realistic tack.    Most of that comes from talent, but not trying to be TOO realistic helps a lot as well.

I'd say WoW and new-style DAoC are about equal in terms of their graphics engines...I still perfer DAoC's look.

Yeah, like Blizzard needs to mole F13.

Someone once did a mock up of a nice LFG system that had the wee pictures of the people looking arranged into the instance groups and you could see level, class, gear, the whole thing.

Something like that, I thought at the time, would really work.  Sadly, not for me since PUG's cause blindness.

It's the new LFG system going live (hopefully*) with TBC.

And as for the 'WoW graphics' debate: The fact that there's two parallel discussions going on (the power of WoW's graphic engine vs the quality of WoW's art), combined with the minor detail of "bad" art (e.g. pretty much anything published by SOE in the last couple of years) compaired to "not to my taste" art (e.g. WoW) means that it's not really going anywhere, IMO.


*Why 'hopefully'? Well, WoW had a halfway adequate LFG system all through beta, which was then replaced by the retard rocks just after the game went live. It's not entirely outside the realms of possibility for history to repeat itself.

There are guides for self financing twinks. I haven't tried it since I have a couple of bored 60s sitting around and the twinkage was nothing to them.

http://www.blizzardguides.com/19_warsong_gulch_bg_guide.html (http://www.blizzardguides.com/19_warsong_gulch_bg_guide.html)

Nicely said.

One topic missing so far in this thread:  playing with friends.

Wow is not just easy to get into as a solo player but to play with buds:  even slow levelers reach the level cap; with a warlock you can summon; it is not too dificult or dangerous to travel in the world.  More than any other game I have tried (except CoH) WoW makes it easy for friends to get together and kill shit.

Thats a NPC. The character models still look like ass, and the animations are horrible. IMO WoW has by FAR the best character animations of any MMOG.

Eh, personally, i think meeting stones were a great idea.  The problem is that the system that they were attatched to sucked balls.  Allowing a computer algorithm to randomly create your group is NOT what players want.   An acutal LFG system, similar to COH or something, showing what groups people are looking for and things is what we want.

On a side note, the stones themselves will actually have a meaningfull use come TBC also.  Rumor has it that you will be able to use the physical meeting stone in much the same way as a warlock portal, allowing you to summon in party members who are off somewhere else when your group forms.

Edit: cause i suck at dirt basic html tags appearently.

When you are wanting to pug, you are looking for a number of things. Any system designed to assist the process needs to serve these needs. Meeting stones (or retard rocks as I will refer to them hereafter -- I laughed at that, if you invented it, grats) serve none of them:

1) Ease of use
Retard rocks, when they first came out, required you to hike out to the instance and touch them. Then you got to stand around doing nothing while your group assembled. More often than not it was a complete wasted trip. They eventually "capitualted to popular demand" and allowed you to join the queue from any inn. Unfortunately, by this point the entire population was soured by them. You still have to hike out to the entrance yourself.

2) Balanced parties or specific classes wanted.
Retard rocks throw people together haphazardly. No healer? No tank? That's your problem as far as the rocks are concerned. Need a mage for scholo's skeleton packs? There's no way to request one.

3) No way to duo group up
Retard rocks don't allow you to form a group and add more people. If you and a friend wanted to find a few more, the rock could just as easily separate you into two separate groups. Fortunately, this wasn't a problem as they were such a total flop there was no chance of this happening.

4) A rating system / way to censor or deny people / way to check qualifications:
Don't want to play with a certain guild who you know are full of retards? It's a good thing you aren't shy or non-confrontational, because you have to boot them instead of just not responding to their LFG request. Oh, they just rejoined becuase the rock dumped them in your group again. Joy.

5) A way to get to the instance
The BEST thing about pugging is trying to get 5-10 people to an instance. Half are in IF, but the OTHER half are off in tanaris or EPL "just finishing this quest up". Then, you get to hike out to the instance. Dire Maul? Takes 20m extra to get there, sucks to be you. It's a good thing PUG people NEVER SAY "Oh, I have to go, I only had 1.5 hours". All that time's used wisely. To be fair, Retard rocks aren't to blame here, but it would have been nice for a teleport.

6) Specific items needed
Party needs a shadowforge key, Scepter of Celebras, or Key to the city? The Retard Rocks are deaf to your pleas.

7) Don't bother people who AREN'T LFG
Since Retard Rocks were so unusable, people just went back to general chat. Retard Rocks failed on this account.
General chat is not the place for LFG, so they made their own channel. Oh, it's server wide. D'oh! It's now been renamed to chuck norris chat.

Yeah. Coming from FFXI, I coudn't believe it. WoW's AH and grouping system is a piece of trash. How hard is a "LFG" toggle flag that puts a ! over their head, and a handy search box that checks adjacent zones? How do they get so much right and COMPLETELY FLUB the grouping system?

I would not want zone-only or adjacent-zone-only LFG system.  If my lvl 40 guy wants a group in SM, I don't want to be tethered to Tirisfal, or to Tirisfal-EP-WTFeverthatzoneisbetweenTirisfallandHillsbrad.  I want to be able to go anywhere and still see if someone needs me for a SM group.

Edit: Insert obvious LFG system here.

I understand how a lfg tool works, I was just objecting to your suggestion of limiting it to "adjacent zones."

I didn't say limit, I simply brought up ajacent zones as an offhand example. You'd obviously want some sort of anywhere in the world option. You'd want ajacent zones if you were only looking to party for a quick quest in the zone.

WUA's right. Not a mole, just a rabid fanboy that doesn't like it when we besmirch the honor of his robot jesus.

OK, let's make out.

Wouldn't really call it fanboy-ism, just appreciation of a polished piece of game. I'm not implying that WoW is the end-all MMOG out there, but it is imho the most polished one, by far. And tbh WoW first time around was a fantastic game. I do realize that old-school MMOG players are a bit fed up with the EQ formula, but for those of us who just crashed and burned before WoW landed it truly was/is something special.

Hate the "community", but love the guilds (well, select few anywyas).

Don't play the game anylonger, due to studies, but I still get a bit surprised when I see a rant about WoW.

You guys are so easily fooled. The first mesage is like "WoW gets a bad rap from hardcore players, what's up with that?" inviting others to say good things about WoW while not having any content.  The second message is like "No not you guys, I meant the other hardcore people. WoW isn't that bad is it?"  Again another invite and no content. And now he parrots back what you guys said and invites more comments.

But whatever, if you guys found something interesting to talk about, great.

Quiet, I'm making out with El Gallo.

OK, I'll agree with that somewhat. If you stay on the Horde. Love the Trolls especially. :)

[edit]

I must reiterate: IF you stay on the Horde.

Some things from the Alliance come to mind:

The Night Elf Male Walk.
The Human Male Run.
The Human Male "Self Cast". Ughh.
Humans Males just look stupid in all kinds of ways actually.
Human/Elf/Dwarf Females are bland. Nothing particularly impressive about them.

Really, the only cool thing on Alliance are Gnomes. Male or Female.

You might be a fanboy if:

1) You ever use the phrase "Appreciation of a polished piece of game" to describe why you created an entire topic asking people to comment on your vial of digital crack.

2) You claim to no longer play, but still feel the need to create an account on a gaming site to specifically ask people why they're hatin' on said digital crack.

Seriously. The game's a big case of "been there, done that, bought the goddamn t-shirt" Is it more polished than a lot of the other MMOs out there? Sure. But when hasn't blizzard not polished whatever they were working on to the point of almost perfection? A polished turd, however, is still a turd. And if I'm gonna play with one, I'll play with a variant that isn't, in the main, populated by the typing braindead, the latest crop of e-peen wavers and Leeeeroy muthafuckin' Jenkins.

OTOH, a lot of the environments in WoW have an almost hyper-realistic look to them rather than a cartoony one (to me, at least). Similar to the oversaturated colours you see in the BBC's show Top Gear. Having "magic hour" when the late afternoon sun comes over Westfall is something I'll take over the endless grey that is/was EQ2 on release anytime..

Gotta agree there, WoW has some of the most visually impressive environments i have ever seen in a game, with some absolutely incredible ambience effects to go with them (sunrise, sunset, moonrise, fog and shadows and all sorts of shit.)

I still recall the pure joy of my first month or so of playtime, discovering the cool landmarks and the like as i explored around.

Outland will probably bring back a lot of that.  I have seen some of the new zones and they just kick total ass.  Zangamarsh, for example is just an obscenely cool looking zone.

Oh look - Surlyboi found teh hate. How cute. So let me ask you this - what makes WoW a 'turd'? Any more than any other MMORPG product on the market? I'm so fucking tired of people slagging what is essentially a good game just because it's popular. Do I still subscribe? No. What do i play? EVE and very little of that due to time constraints.

But listen up - either come up with articulate and accurate fucking critisicism or STFU. Seriously. Calling people fanboy's because they like a polished, functional and entertaining game is retarded. Try harder to be cool kthxbye.

Who bashes WoW because it's popular? I've never seen it before. Not in this thread, and not anywhere else on the Internet.

Why do some of you keep saying this?

??

?

I believe he meant he's tired of bashing WoW for the same things that every other MMO does wrong as well (and not calling attention to same mistake when everyone else makes it), simply because WoW is popular. In many ways I agree. (A large reason is, I have a guildmate of mine from another game that can't stop complaining about WoW, and never really does make arguements above "omg WoW needs to burn". I'm used to this stuff :P.)

In the abstract: Game X does Field A wrong, so does Game Y. Game X gets bashed on for its poor Field A, while the virtues of Game Y in Field B and Field L are shown as reasons to why Game X sucks, while its horrid implementation of Field A is ignored. Even though they both contain the poor Field A, and Fields B and L are completely irrelevant to Game X, Game X is double bashed.

Taking the statement differently, many of WoW's problems are due to its popularity or simply exacerbated by it, and I am forgiving because of that popularity (BitTorrent being the real annoyance for folks, although the community is one we've dealt with earlier). But again, when someone complains about lag in WoW, I can't help but reference every other game that runs like ass, and the fact they're probably playing on an over-populated server that they had a chance to evac-transfer off of, but decided against it at the time for some reason. Is that being a bit unfair to people playing on really bad servers, yes, it is.

When a game can be nearly as popular and polished as WoW is and runs significantly better with a direct download system, I'll be the first to say, "WTF, why aren't you guys doing what they're doing?"

I guess that makes sense. I try to be fair in my hate though ;). I won't complain about the lag at least. There are, as you said, worse or similar games when it comes to that.

When it comes down to it, my main gripes are only a few. You all can judge if they're legitimate.

1) Deceptive Advancement Process. Starts out catering to casuals. Ends up catering to catasses. There's too much focus on a relatively small segment of players and activity types (i.e. raids, the gear within, faction grinding, etc.).

The next two points are tied into that:

2) World PvP is crap.

BG's are OK, but rather uninspired and tacked on. This game still isn't what it could be. They need someone with as much passion and ideas about PvP as the people who design raids and dungeons are passionate about their jobs. It needs to start living up to the "Warcraft" name.....At least a little. The only thing they borrow from WC, at this point, is the lore.

In this respect, I feel the same way about WoW as I do SWG and how it doesn't resemble Star Wars.

3) Weapon and Armor crafting sucks.

I enjoy the game a lot.

Can't really argue with your 3 points tho.

Ooooh, Squirrel, show me on the nightelf doll where the bad man touched you.

I'm not hating on WoW because it's popular. And as for reasons, what part of "Been there, done that" did you not understand? Read my statement again, this time for comprehension. I think they're all turds, but if I'm gonna play one, might as well go with an original one and not one that spawns people that start accounts on gaming boards just to ask why people hate on their game. Or people that decode my fairly plain statement that I hate WoW because it's the same shit in a slightly shiner wrapper to mean "I hate WoW because it's popular" And yes, I'm lookin' right at you on that one.

Be cool, my ass.

I enjoy it enough to play it several times a week. Though I can't argue with Stray's comment either.

Nightelf doll.. that reminds me of that Dark Elf/Drow Realdoll.  :heart:

Oh, you mean you don't like it.

Well,  :nda:, but I can say that there's a definite possibility that they're both making the meeting stones useful [kinda] AND actually adding LFG functionality in BC.


-- Z.

Look at all the discussion that has spawned.  It's hardly a case of fanbois piling on, unless by fanboi you mean anyone who likes the game, or anyone who disagrees with you.  If the OP actually was a fanboi posting without content, wtf did you bother reading the thread and responding?

You don't like WoW because it's not original.  Ok.  You don't like the WoW community.  Ok.  Nobody in this thread has said WoW is a brand-new original game with a terrific community.  Just the opposite. 

Speaking of adding content, what exactly is your point again?  Besides that you don't like WoW and think anyone who does is a fanboi mole?  The vitriole disguised it.  Or there wasn't one.

The vitriol didn't start really until Squirrel piled on. My fanboy response was to the person that called, "mole".

And yet again, there seems to be a lack of reading for comprehension here. What part of "starts an account on a gaming board (where we pretty much slam every game) to ask why people don't like his game", describes someone I don't agree with?

Yes, I don't like the game. Why? Too little in the way of character choices. Now, granted I come from games like EQ and UO and the original form of SWG and all the MUDs and MUSHes that preceeded them. And yes, agreed, they all suck as well, but know what? They pioneered in their own ways. UO? Open ended as all get out because it was a world simulation. Cool. Playerbase was a bunch of tools, but cool. EQ? Diku with a GUI. New? Only in that it put a debatably pretty face on the text crap I'd been playing for years. Again, playerbase were in the main, tools. But it was new and different and when I got invited into a guild, I felt special, I felt like I was wanted because I'd been playing with a bunch of the same guys for a long time and they felt I'd be a good addition to their group. Nice. SWG? Trainwreck. But the skill system was and still is a thing to be envied. It released players from locking themselves into pre-selected classes and cookie-cutter templates. (Though, again, the playerbase fucked that up too by dueling on test servers to see which combination of skills would server their e-peens best)

What has WoW contributed to any of this? There are less class options available than there were in EQ at launch, there's the illusion of uniqueness among players with the talent system, but honestly, with the exception of the already mentioned here attention to detali in things like the sunrises and sunsets, the game does nothing to make me want to jump up and shout and say, "Yeah, this is something I want to play a lot". Nothing makes me want to do that right now because, Like I said, they're all pretty much crap right now.

Please, learn to read for comprehension and follow the line of the thread.

I have spent my entire WoW time playing horde. Except for a brief stint to level 30 as a Paladin for shits. One thing you might not know, Night Elves do have one great animation. They have an awesome death animation.

I enjoy playing WoW over anything else on the market now.  Yes, I've tried most all of them. 

If a game comes out with as much polish and is even more casual I'll go to that one in a heartbeat.  Anything that is remotely less casual friendly will not get my sub past the first free month.

I'd like to see crafting done much better too.

I can't comment on PvP yet.  I haven't gotten to a point where I feel I could be competent yet.

/KickDeadHorse

All this over a mole post.  Inconceivable!

I don't think it's a mole post (WoW moles.. eehhl o lll.  I'm not saying any of you actually believe this either), just a bad first post from someone that doesn't really know how it works here. You can watch a soccer game, chess, or Texas Hold'em on TV, but you're not going to be able to just jump in and do it. Lurkers almost always have shitty first posts/threads and take a beating before they either settle down and acclimate or run off never to be heard from again.

WoW gets criticized because it does things wrong.  Some of this has been pointed out here. I agree with most (if not all) of it, but I still like WoW a lot.

WoW gets criticized because of the design process employed at Blizzard. They make their game centered around a core target activity; in WoW's case this raiding.  The rest of the game is considered accessibility and a way to draw people into the core game.  At the AGC, Pardo described this as a "donut".  Raiding is the center (and ironically the empty part of the donut) and the rest of game is built around it.

The "donut" is a puzzling and troubling concept but apropos in a way that Pardo may not have intended.  You eat a donut and when you're done you've got nothing left.  You can dive in and embrace that void and find fun in it, but I'm sure a lot of us would have just preferred to keep eating donuts.  Perhaps Pardo should start making danishes. Of course, all the money is in donuts so why bother.

My entire issue is with the ethereal center of the donut.  I don't have time for it. My life doesn't work with it.  It's the only part of the game that tries to make me choose it over real life.  Perhaps I never found the right guild, but all of the conflicting desires I have make that a damn near impossibility (anyone got a mature, small, action oriented guild that occasionally pvps, but still has enough members to do the smaller raids at 10pm PST?).  I still want to resub sometime in the next couple of months and that actually worries my wife.   :|

There's no such thing as a perfect game and there never will be anything close in a MMO.  Expect people to find umbrage and discuss things they don't like, especially here.

at this point I'm so fucking hungy I have to go eat before I can return to figure out what the point of your post is

They pulled every Krispy Kreme out of the city I live in.  How lame is that? I prefer Dunkin Donuts, but if you drove by a Krispy Kreme, it wasn't a bad alternative. 

Mmmm... donuts.

Despite the hunger, you put it a lot better than I've seen in a while.

Pardo should read it.

(now that hunger has been conquered and I'm capable of reading comprehension) amen brother, preach it.

We were playing it but apparently we were the only ones.

(http://youturd.com/parts2.jpg)

I agree that it seems like a mole post to me because of the low post count and the topic.  And like there isn't enough cogent and articulate material about WoW all over these forums already?  We need another post? (I actually enjoy reading everyone's thoughts however)

I highly doubt that the Tetragrammaton sends "moles" here.  My feeling on posts like these is that maybe it's a student doing a project or someone with a nascent gaming site looking for material.

After reading this whole thread I can distill my apathy for WoW down to the fact that as you advance in levels your progression becomes more and more dependant on other people.  And because of the many reasons listed (a large amount of people without an MMO playing background, player age, generally being new to teh intarwebz, etc) this process becomes so painful that it overshadows the fun parts of the game.

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g194/floodcore/WoW%20Junk/IloveWoW.jpg)

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g194/floodcore/WoW%20Junk/IloveWoW2.jpg)

Agreed, the topic wasn't original, nor informative. But hey, first topic = crap (most of the time).

And well, it's always a laugh watching human nature :) Espescially on the internet, where noone really knows anyone, and the suspicion it can arouse. But it sparked a nice discussion, and some good points were raised.

That picture always makes me misty eyed.  I really wish I could have had a homogenous collection, but hell, Moby collected heads too. Hearts were just an undiscovered commodity no one bothered with.

I think the patch that may have killed UO for me was the one where they made body parts decay rapidly and made them not storable.  :cry: