f13.net

Looks good to me.  Can you say flying form?

http://worldofwarcraft.com/burningcrusade/townhall/talents-and-spells.html

This makes for a happy Druid here.

I'm torn, do I spec for ghetto tree pets, or do I spec to become a ghetto tree pet.



Also, Does the Resto Tree dance?

The 41-point talents look good outside of the balance summon thing.

Tree form is cool.

Pretty damn nice talents.  I even think the Balance summon thing is pretty nifty, though it depends on how effective the tree-ents are.  But still, could be very usefull.

Tree form is awsome, but its going to make priest pretty mad I bet, since I know holy priest have been begging for a "healing form" of some sort for a long time now.

The most important question out of all this, though, is what will the Tree forms dance be?

Between paladins vs. warriors, the druid notes brings the issue again vs. priests.

I hope Wow does not go the way of EQ where hybrids outperform the pure classes for anything outside raiding.

Anyway, kudos to Blizzard for a creative advancement of the druid.

Gah, I need to not read the official forums.  Of course, as usual, every Druid is complaining they got shafted with the worst talents ever.  Just like the priest did (who are complaining, of course, Druids are the most powerfull class ever now).  And everybody else.  I think thats how you can tell Blizzard us doing a good job in balancing class`s.  I have never seen a single damn class not bitch up a storm about its talent review, and envy everybody elses.

Talents are not an area Druids need a lot of help with. Gear is the real problem. Getting +spell dmg leather is almost impossible. Even getting +STR leather for Feral requires more work than necessary. Talents mean jack when there isn't a reliable method to equip your character in a way that plays to the strengths of your talent build.

And I'm not even talking about "uber" balance gear either. I'm just talking about normal gear. Greens and Blues (for all levels, that is). There's something wrong when the majority of Balance Druids are wearing cloth sets.

This is probably the same case for some other classes though (Elem Shaman for one). It needs to be fixed. People shouldn't be restricted in how they want to play and build a character. Restrict their power, if anything. Just don't restrict and make them work for options. If someone wants to be an Elem Shaman, don't make them level up all the way to 60+raiding to do it. If someone wants to be a Balance Druid, don't make them go all the way up to AQ (or wear a fucking Warlock set) to do it.

Agreed, the whole lack of Spell Damage Leather/Mail is the biggest thing as they're only useful to those two specs (while a Druid can grab some high Agi leather and not suck completely). It all really comes down to gear, but some of the new skills are great (Bear Sunder!).

On the talents though, Balance has some nice additions, like the new Moonkin. We'll have to see gear before we can figure out how good Dreamstate/Lunar Guidance are, but the Balance tree is again pretty straightforward.

In Feral there's a few nice Hybrid talents like Nurturing Instinct and Survival of the Fittest, but there are just SO many points at the bottom. I made a decent 11/43/7 tanking build (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent-bc=zzLV0oZxxosfMdVeszV0b), but having to split points between Imp LotP, Primal Tenacity (Iron Will basically), and Predatory Instincts (+Melee Crit Bonus and +Avoid AOEs) is quite a call. Oh, and please tell me Survival of the Fittest comes after Heart of the Wild :P.

My biggest complaints though come from early on in Restoration. Having Reflection as a prereq for Nature's Swiftness makes you go through a pure-PvE talent to get to one of the more essential Hybrid ones, not fun. Tranquil Spirit being swapped with Gift of Nature as the prereq for Swiftmend makes sense because of the 41pt talent if Gift of Nature actually scaled with gear. As it stands now, it's one of the poorer talents in Resto, and will probably get worse with time, not better. The one nice addition is the new Subtlety which makes HoTs harder to dispell. That's basically an essential talent considering the reliance on Swiftmend if you're going all the way down to Tree of Restoration.

Healing as a tree seems kinda interesting since you'll basically have Rejuv, Regrowth, and Lifebloom, along with Swiftmends every 15s. That is quite a different method of healing then we've seen before, so I don't think Priests should feel their territory's being infringed upon. If anything, they're moving more towards a complementary relationship and basically making Druids the support class for whatever group they wish to spec towards, not just the DPS classes.

Maybe there will be less e-peen contests with Priests and more trying to effectively heal as a unit... *gasp*.

As far as I can tell, that's true so long as you spec Feral or Balance. You can support or dps if you're heavily specced in Balance --- Or you can keep the same Balance spec, play the healing role and still be helpful. As Feral, you can support and dps with Melee -- Or you can keep the spec, switch gear, and still be helpful as a healer. As Resto, you're just a healer. Trying to do anything else, no matter what gear you switch to, will get you laughed at and, most importantly....killed. Plus, you'll have a hard time soloing if and when you ever wanted or needed to.

This is especially true in PvP and small groups, but from what I've heard, it can be true for Raids as well (as long as you're a smart player....Which all Druids are anyways ;) ).

[edit]

Wait, that's not entirely true. A Resto Druid could still bear tank 5 mans, I guess. Not much else though.

A Balance Druid, on the other hand, can be a caster/healer in humanoid form, a caster in Moonkin form, caster support, even melee in Moonkin form, or tank in Bear form.

Feral Druid can be rogue-ish dps, warrior-ish dps, melee buff/support, tank in bear, or heal in normal form.

I think he meant more that the resto move makes druids support healers, as in being more about complementing priests than competing with them.

Misread Lacerate as Lactate.

Much giggling ensued.

I'm sure Mages would be happy if there was such a skill.

...but trees do not lactate.

Sap might count.  Tastes good on my waffles anyway!

I kind of figured that was the point with sockets. Your socket choices customize your gear to what you need -- adding in that +dmg to leather, that sort of thing. Sockets are nice for any class, but if done well they should allow the hybrids to actually have gear that fits their build, instead of constantly swapping gear when they swap roles.

Cyclone has the potential to be seriously overpowered if there is NO cooldown (and the description about "only one at a time" seems to imply there isn't).  If that "up to" six seconds trends to four seconds or more, what you essentially have is a no-cooldown anti-healer Counterspell.  This excites me as much as anything else because we've NEVER had a good spellstopper in caster form- you take out that priest in the BG from casting for six seconds, his tank goes down and their whole party collapses.

I can tell you right now, as a fire mage, im most definately NOT bitching up a storm.  Fire talents are pure orgasmic luv.

Ice seems kind marginal, and arcane seems kind of weak, but fire makes me horny.

My mage is probably going to remain deep, deep, DEEP frost. But then, that fits my mage placestyle in both PvE and PvP.

Moonkin are still going to have trouble in a PvE raiding context; they didn't really give balance enough love, especially compared to the other trees. It really seems like they want the balance tree to be the PvP tree and are designing it as such. Moonkin form's 3% spell crit still doesn't outweigh it's negatives, and you still can't get NS (arguably as much a requisite as inervate) and treants too.

It's only 6 seconds.. so it's useful but not the zomgwtf 15 of Sheep. (Always the longest 15s of your short life.)  

However, if rumors are to be believed, all CC is being nerfed in the Arenas.  There's a multi-page thread on it over at Fires of Heaven.  Nobody can clarify if it's just Spell CC or if things like Hamstring, Wingclip, Crip. poison will be affected, too.  If it's just spells, that'll make things um.. "interesting."  :-o :heartbreak:



What Holy priests want tho, is crazy.  They want more efficient heals, bigger heals, better mana regen.   None of which really matters.   I rarely have mana problems (as Alliance, admittedly) and I carry a max of 5 Major Mana potions on full raids.   My wife plays a druid, now THERE's a huge mana differential.  If these priests had to deal with the mana pool/ consumption of druids they'd have quit a long time ago.   The biggest bitch priests honestly have is cast time, and that was fixed so as to be pathetically simple so that you don't have to anticipate or break heals as often anymore.   If a healing form were introduced that reduced cast time, you'd just see priests going OOM more often, then bitching,"I don't have enough mana, wtf Bliz!?"

As the druid form only lets you cast regen spells and swiftmend (and there's still a ? if it counts lifebloom as a regen spell.) it's definatly nice for offhealing, but not a primary healer.   Of course, nobody knows anything about the new raid mechanics.. so perhaps stacking regens and treeform will be uber-dooper.

Another thought:

Flightform looks usable in combat (otherwise, the 3 sec cast time makes no sense).

I may not be able to kill anyone, but I can Warstomp+Cyclone+Flightform and escape any 1v1 confrontation...following on flying mounts will do no good, as I'd like to see you wtfpwn me 500 feet up in the two seconds before you fall out of range to your death  :-)

I don't think it will be.  It's a free mount, so it's got the mount's cast time.

I assume it is a travelform much like the one druid's already have, not a mount.  You become the flying creature, not mount one.  I'm also guessing the travel speed will be lower than a mount (similar to current travel form) to adjust for being "free." (Current is 50% while a mount is 60% increase in speed)

Escaping as a bird won't be all that useful since you'd only be able to use it in outdoor Outland situations.  I suppose some world PvP will be happening, but some restrictions will probably be put on flying.  Such as, you probably won't be able to use it to take "item x" to "location y" for your PvP turn-in, etc.

I'm guessing none of the instances (outdoors or not) will allow flightform.  Hell, they might just add some additional vulnerabilities while in flightform such as ranged vulnerability.  Get shot at while flying over the enemy and look forward to that 100 foot drop.

This is all complete speculation of course, but my money is on them making it so this travelform is not useful outsided of...travelling.

In fairness to Paladins their bitching and envy is completely warranted, they got completely fucked on their class revamp.

Yeah, essentially. With Moonkin Aura or Leader of the Pack, while still doing your DPS job, you're helping out the DPS of the rest of your group (a Moonkin, 3 Fire Mages, and a Pally in a group is something obscene). Now, apart from being the Innervate bitch every six minutes, a Druid healing does essentially the same job as a Priest. You Greater Heal/Heal, I Healing Touch. You Renew, I Rejuv.

On Cyclone though, at 1.5s cast, it is a pretty long Counterspell. Also, it will probably work the same way as Entangling Roots, DR and all.

Why is that?  As far as I can see, it doesn't look like it's that much more uber than the regular flying mounts (it looks comparable to, say, the cheetah form vs. current mounts).  Assuming they ever add BGs to Outland, why would they specifically disallow flight form?


Hmm, am I reading the wrong page?  The one I'm looking at (http://worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-druid/spells.html) has it listed as an instant cast (just like their current shapeshifts), dispells roots and polymorph (just like the current shapeshifts), mentions it can only be used in Outland, but doesn't say anything about being unuseable in combat.  Am I reading an out of date page or something?

Beats me, I was replying from work and not looking at the talents.  Since Tri has a druid, I figured he knew what he was talking about.


You're misunderstaning what I meant.  It's the ability to fly, for free, unlike the other classes that'll have to buy the next riding skill and the mount.  I didn't think it turned you into a mount & rider.   It's possible they'll adjust it akin to travel form/ ghostwolf but since Tri said it had a cast time, I was figuring it would be the same speed as whatever flying mounts everyone else gets.  If it's not downgraded, druids get to save big bucks.. grats.

I also am guessing all flight travel will work that way, not just the druid form.  I don't think you'll be able to use flight in any instances.  I don't think you'll be able to last very long in a fight while flying.  You might be able to use it to escape, but not much else.

They may allow it in BG's, but I still maintain my prediction that you won't be able to use flight for anything more than esacping or travelling to areas of combat quicker.  Essentially, it will be just like travelling now, just in the air (over buildings and landscape obstructions.)  They may only make it so that it is slightly faster than riding today for future expansions to elite flying mounts.  My guess is:

Standard Riding Mount (slowest)
Standard flying Mount
Elite Riding Mount
Elite Flying mount (Fastest)

I think I remember reading that standard flying and elite riding were 100% increase in speed.  So they are the same from a speed perspective.

Which brought me to the thought that I would I'd bypass the elite riding (haven't been able to save the cash yet), since they said something like you could use the flying mount as a riding mount in non-Outland (this is from my memory, and may not be true at all).

Regardless of whether you can ride flying mounts in old zones, it looks like I'm going to need to buy journeyman riding anyway (assuming journeyman riding skill (elite riding) is a prereq for master riding (flying mounts)).

I have never purchased in-game money from external sources as I think that is a good way to break games, but I got to admit that (for the amount I play) 2800gp (I'm guessing 800gp for journeyman + 1800 for master riding skill) just to get a flying mount is massive amount of grinding.  But more likely I'll quit rather then buy gold.  My strong hope at this point is that PvPng my way to journeyman, and then to master is a possibility.

God help us. Bears charging from the sky!

Heh, this makes me want to re-up and level a druid to 60 before the expansion hits.  :|  I'm sure my shaman will also be lots of fun with the new options afforded to him.

Now.. if only there was a way to get great loot sans raiding (solo even) or a compelling solo experience at 60. But I'm weak, I'm sure WoW will eventually overtake UO on the amount of times I'll end up resubscribing.

If it makes you feel any better, I wish I had rolled a Shaman instead. I just don't have the energy or patience to try making another character. Not only are they the more hassle-free hybrid class, but they can also  excel in their various roles. On the flipside, no matter how much min/maxing you do with a Druid, they'll never be as destructive as a Shaman. They'll never excel at anything except healing.

I have a mage.  I've been owned very badly by druids coming out of stealth, so I know they can put out rogue-like damage you have good gear and spec for it.  And against druids you can't poly or root them  : /.

I guess the grass is always greener and all that.  But I'm leveling a druid right now, and hopefully he'll be close to 60 by the expansion.

I'll admit that Mages are at a disadvantage, but it isn't because of rogue-like damage per se. Cat form has the speed to disrupt casting well, and Druids in general have all the means to negate a mage's control (very easy to shiftshape yourself to an oom state against a mage however). As far as damage potential goes though, you're lucky if you can achieve 85% of what a Rogue does. You'll also never get anywhere close to a Rogue's dodge rate, or have all the goodies that makes a Rogue a Rogue (i.e. poisons, kidney shot, gouge, sap, etc......At least not yet). Cat form, in my experience, is best in spurts and opening moves, but never a substitute for a rogue.

Not that I don't like my Druid or anything though....It's cool. I accept what they are. I'm just itching for a class that dishes out heavy burst damage and can still heal -- and the Shaman is it. I'm also a sucker for anything Lightning based (in all games) ;).

I may as well be Stray.  I'm also a druid eyeing up the shaman.  I played a Thane in DAOC for the lightening.  hmph! I'm not a special snowflake?!?!

Only thing causing me some uncertainty now is the flight form.  it's so damn cool.  If they retro-fit flying back into the main world, druid might be the class for me (but the lightening!).

Heh, yeah, I played a Thane too. Didn't get far though.  :-)

I don't think its possible to retrofit flying back into the original world, absent a probably-years-away total graphics revamp.  Word on the WoW boards (from random forum monkeys, admittedly) is that the buildings/terrain simply isn't designed to be viewed from many angles (ie, except for flightpaths, if you were directly above Ironforge you wouldn't see anything.

Yep, I saw the actual 'blue post' about that, so it's not just random forum monkeys playing telephone game.   They said they did a lot of visual tricks with the mountains and the main cities, things that don't look right at all if you can actually fly around.  Makes me want someone to develop a model-hack for zones not just player characters, so I can see for myself.

I'm suspicious.  Stuff looks ok when we fly over it on the flight routes.

How hard can it be to revamp the existing zones on the parts that don't look ok?

I'd be happy if they let us pick up the flight zones with our flyable mounts/forms.  That way we could pick them up and drop out of them anywhere we wanted.  You'd just have to run to a flight line to access it.

If we can't have that, I wouldn't mind having to start at a flight path, but be able to drop anywhere before the end.  That would still help on travel times a lot.

The flying mount ability should allow you to do this (early take offs and landings) so newb chars would still go the traditional route, etc.

According to the Dev post -- "hard". It's mostly the cities. Giant chunks of them don't exist. They're tricks to save draw distance. Since cities are where people congregate, they did what they could to minimize graphic needs there. It's like on TV shows when they show a window but the stuff out the window is merely an image showing the proper perspective.

From the camera's angle, you see out over a city or something. If you suddenly allow the viewer to get a look from the actor's perspective, you'd see all the edge.

From what I recall, the flightpaths actually have large swatches of such images. (There's a technical term for them, but I can't recall). If you had free flight, you'd be running into walls with towers and such painted on them, where you thought there was open sky.

To fix it, they'd have to go over vast swatches of the game and actual create terrain and render it, and totally rework some of the cities.

There is also the problem of people flying out over "undeveloped" tertitory (off the north and east edges of EPL for example) or over the wedges of space between zones where there simply isn't anything there.  Stuff that looks fine from the ground, for the exact example mentioned above.

an actual perfect example of what they would have to deal with can bee seen in the form of http://mapwow.com/  which is basicly the world of azeroth, as visible from the sky.

I mean, look at the mess that is the Eastern kingdoms around Stormwind.  All around stormwind is empty terrain, north is a HUGE chunk of blank, featureless, textureless area.  Same with chunks of area around the Burning Steppes, and adjacent zones as well as all that stuff to the east along the coast.   The whole world map is covered in places like that.

If you want to see it for yourself, you can also roll up a Hunter or Shaman, and level up to Hawk Eye / Far Sight (shaman get far sight at around level 10 or so if i remember correctly), and then go touring around.  Drop it on your hot bar, and start targeting the tops of mountains and places, then click it again and target somewhere farther away.  I managed to get pretty deep into the textureles / featureless areas N/E of EPL while standing in LHC.

I can also tell you that from "outside" Orgrimmar doesent exist.  There is a clever, though trickey way to scale the cliff off to the right of the main gates, that lets you get up on top of them.  And all you see from up there is a featureless open pit, which roughly corresponds to the city layout, with a sunken area farther back in that i believe is the Cleft of Shadows.

Aside from what Morat and SurfD have said, notice how high you're normally flying with your mounts.  There are a ton of times when you're very, very close to the ground (often within five meters or so) and very few when you're actually high off the ground.  When you're that close to the ground, most of what you see is going to be the same as what you see on the ground, but the higher up you get, the more stuff you'll be looking over that you can't see from anywhere else.

Plus, there are issues with the Lore, if Blizzard is even pretending to care about that anymore.  Gilneas is supposed to be south of Greymane Wall, which is currently imapssable, so there's nothing there (the wall backs onto a flat plain which drops into the ocean), so they'd either have to add in the place, or explain why it's fallen into the ocean, or whatever. The Devs used steep cliffs and walls to limit where players can and can't go; I assume that part of the reason they don't want flying mounts outside of Outworld is because some of those walls are important; players shouldn't be able to pass them for some reason (be they technical reasons or for balance/design reasons).

I believe that they created many parts of the world that were not intended to be viewed from above.  I never believed it was because, "we never knew how much people would like to fly".  That's pure crap.   I think there were/are two reasons - 1) the engine had issues if they were 3D-faithful in highly trafficked areas 2) they didn't have enough manpower to complete the whole world and wanted to block easy-access to those parts of the world.

Seem like good reasons to me.  I'm just hopeful that at some point they might revamp the old girl and keep flying in mind.  Seems like they could also add some lore to create "no fly" zones... not like the wizards don't have access to magic.

As i suggested, take a look over mapwow.com.

there are LOADS of places where there simply IS NOTHING THERE other then plain flat geometry.  No trees, rocks objects of any kind. No textures either.  Just flat expanses of blank, monotone polygon.   They are everywhere in areas where zones adjoin / border each other, and are also all over the place in cities.  Zul farrak and Zul'Gurub are, from what i can tell, the ONLY outdoor instances in the game which are fully visible from the sky.

Go have a look at Diremaul, and you will notice that wierd chunks  of the outdoor portion of the instance are non visible.