f13.net

I finally bit the bullet a month ago and signed up with Pokerstars to start playing hold-em online. I thought I'd compile 10 of my experiences and the things I've learned as a rather newbie player to the game to help bypass the growing pains of the uninitiated.

1) Poker is addictive - In the first week I played the site pretty much solidly when I came home from work. I loved getting into tourneys and busting out players. I didn't really know what I was doing, but I didn't really care either. It was just so much fun I didn't care about playing any of the other games I was involved in. While this is the case early on, it does eventually wear out some, and if it doesn't, you need to consider backing off of it for a while and getting some help. Especially if you suck.

2) Expect to lose in the beginning - Unless you are awesome coming in, the learning curve involved in the game will make you lose money, especially if you go on tilt while playing drunk. My advice to minimize this is to never drink to excess when you are playing, and to take 10 minute breaks after each big loss. Give yourself some time to think about why you lost and learn from each mistake you make. I am still not in the black yet from my early losses, but I know now that given time I will be. I consider it an early investment in my poker education that will reap returns in the future. At the win rate I'm achieving I should accomplish breakeven at the end of the month. Then its all gravy from there.

3) Varying your type of game is a mistake early on - Find a game that you like and stick with it for a while, don't jump back and forth between many different formats. All formats have different intricacies that you must experience and learn to win at them, and if you are jumping around you can't get the feel for that game. I personally like SnG's, some like ring games, and others like tournaments. Whatever you preference, make sure that you apply some focus to what you like so you understand the game. This will of course change later on when you get better, so don't be afraid to break out of the mold once you start winning.

4) Poker books are a sound investment - $20 may seem like a lot to spend on a textbook for a cardgame, but they can be the difference between making smart calls and bad decisions when you apply the principles therein. My advice would be to buy "Hold-em" by Carson, and "Hold-em for Advanced Players" by Sklansky for starters. Then, if you like tournaments, buy "Tournament Hold-em" by Sklansky as well. Some parts are obvious and the entirity of the books will not wow you. However, you will want to make copies of the tables per position and keep them available early-on so you don't call with crap cards. Also, highlighting strategies for check-raises, bluffs, slow-plays, and semi-bluffs in the Sklansky texts are key.

5) Know when to walk away from pocket pairs - More often than not I lost big pots when I kept trying to believe my pockets were the best hand out there, even when my head was screaming at me to the contrary. It's a delusional thing that such a good starting hand could go so far south when that flush board hits and a guy goes all in. They won't stand up, and you need to bail out.

6) Make a note of loose players at the table - They are everywhere on the sites, and they make dumb mistakes. Notice the guys that are winning hands at showdown with cards you wouldn't ever play. That guy who called with a 72 off and happened to make two pair is lucky, not smart. You can crush him in the long run if he keeps making calls like that, so find him and tool him over when your AK comes along.

7) Don't bitch about the river - It's not your god-given right to win even if your cards are better to start with. If you don't like that, play Guts with your friends at home and forget about hold-em. The best starting hand doesn't always win here, and that's something you either accept or let it slowly drive you crazy. Just remember the times that the river made your set and won you the hand in a suckout when your pocket aces fall down. The moment you bitch about the river or let it piss you off is the moment you start walking down Tilt road.

8) When you are up don't get looser - Being the high stack means you have the advantage, but it doesn't mean you should start playing more cards. The cards you play should always be a function of how many people are at the table, your position, and who you think will call. Leave your stack out of the equation unless you are in the final four at a SnG. More often than not, young players get overconfident in the high stack and play more hands than they should. That's the fast track back to mediocrity. If you learn to play the high stack consistently, you can become unbeatable over time.

9) Raises are better than calls in many positions - At the very least, raises keep the BB from limping in with nut cards that could develop after the flop. At the best, you are adding value to a pot that you can easily take with a good hand. At times, simple calls are appropriate, but hold-em is a game of domination. You shouldn't be afraid to take the other players by the balls and twist when you can.

10) Go all-in on your terms - If you aren't sure about an all-in, don't ever call one, especially if its coming from a player in an early position. Consider the factors at play along with your hand, as well as whether or not cards have flopped yet. Its much better to call an all-in with strong cards before the flop than after if it didn't help you at all. Remember than your pocket pairs might not hold up afterwards, but before they are great. Just make sure you never call for the hell of it, or to see what the other guy has even if you are ahead. That's the fool's play.

That's basically it for now, I'd encourage anyone else to add there comments if they wish, and I'd also like anyone that has been on the fence to get out there and start playing for the good times.

I'm not that good at it myself but learning the odds helps out a great deal. More often then not the player who knows what his % to win a hand before and after the flop walks away the winner from a table.

I'd write more but I'm actually on my way to a night of Hold'em at the casino. Wish me alot of tourists!

Yes I neglected to point out that odds do play a big part, but the fish often get bogged down in odds and play overly tight. That's usually when I start to rake them over the coals with the big stack. Case in point, don't wait for the big hand, play the best hand.

Really, really tempted to stop reading there....

Danger, Will Robinson.

The best advice I give anyone that wants to get involved in any kind of card gambling:

Count The Cards.

Its just that simple.

Thank you for posting this!

I just wish that more people took this one to heart.  I've been playing poker online and in casinos for years and find that I will walk away from a good table if there are too many whiners.  Since I have no delusions about becoming a professional, I typically play with the hope of having some fun while not losing my shirt.  Too many people think that they are the next World Series of Poker champion.

Yeah that's my biggest problem, the whiners. I was playing in a 250 person satillite tournament with some bigger stacks at my table. The action was getting hot, so I went all-in with a KTs. It's not a great hand for that at all, but I was expecting no action. When the call came down, I thought I was toast, but a KT came up on the flop. The other guy was holding pocket Js or something. He proceeded to call me a horrible player and told me I didn't deserve that hand. Funny thing is we both ended up in the top 10 of the touranment and advanced in the satellite. I told him to go ahead and let it ruin his day if he liked, but he wasn't going to see me saying luck didn't play a part.

The simple fact is, people who are lucky can beat people who are good some of the time, but not ALL of the time. He caught me with my pants down once and I walked away, but he used that one hand to make a commentary about my entire playstyle. Keep that kind of stuff to yourself and you end up not getting an ulcer from a game. Needless to say he had to eat massive amounts of crow when I was the high stack in the tournament on his table.

Question that begs a very short and uncomplicated answer: What exactly is Texas Holdem?

I'm not looking for a 30 page tutorial on how to PLAY it, I want to know the basic structure.

Each player gets two cards, and the entire table gets 5 community cards. The player who can make the best 5-card hand (using their cards, plus any of the community cards) is the winner.

You bet after getting your two cards. Then the dealer turns over the first 3 community cards (aka the flop) and you bet again. Then the dealer turns over the 4th community card (aka the turn or 4th street) and you bet again. Then the dealer turns over the last community card (aka the river or 5th street) and you bet again. If two or more players call the final bet, the cards are turned over, and the best hand takes the pot.

Normal ranking of poker hands apply, and there are traditionally no wild cards in Texas Holdem.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............

Two cards are dealt to each player face down, followed by an initial round of betting. Instead of antes, in most cases the two players immediately to the left of the dealer put in bets called "The Blinds". These bets an amount determined by the type of game and double in value from the first to second player. So for example, in a .25/.50 game, the first player to the left puts in .25 and the second player puts in .50 without seeing their cards. That .50 then becomes the standard to call if you want to keep playing.

After the initial round, there is "The flop" which is 3 community cards dealt to the middle, after which players bet again. Then there is "The turn" which is the fourth community card, and again betting. Then lastly "The River" which is the 5th community card, and then betting. At the end the player that can make the best poker hand of 5 cards out of his two down cards and the 5 community cards wins the pot. Sometimes hands simply come down to who has the high card, thus making the two down cards very integral to the game.

And sometimes the 5 community cards are the best hand, and everyone left splits the pot (happened to me Saturday night at the casino- had 93o in my big blind and scooped 1/5 of the pot when the board was 88877...made a $1 profit!).

In a tournament setting, the fact is the winner always has get lucky. Skill plays a huge role, but the winner of any tournament will 99% of the time gotten some favorable breaks, or at least not gotten screwed.

Any time all your money is in you should be mentally prepared to lose.

Yesterday I advanced in a PL Omaha 8 super-satellite. If I make top 9 in the next one I will be in the WCOOP.

So that's T.J. Cloutier's secret to having won 60 some odd major tourney's, hes just really lucky!  Of all card games poker has the least influence of luck,  some claim that of all the variations of poker Texas Hold'em is one of the least prone to the vagaries of luck.  Many people think this is what makes it so appealing.  The ones that don't think that are generally called 'fish'.

"Oh boy I better stay in till the River I might get Lucky!"

The fact remains that no matter how good you are, you will not win a major tournament without getting lucky.  Even playing perfectly, you will likely be all in a couple times on hands where you have, say, a 30% chance of getting busted.  Skill is important, but once you have a basic level of competence, luck is by far the largest determinant of any particular tournament.  Very good players win more often, but it takes many, many, many tournaments for the good players to seperate themselves from the bad ones.

It's not like chess, where the better player will win 99 out of a 100 games.  Hell, look at the WSoP.  A lot of relative noobs win.  The 2k3 one that they play ad nauseum on ESPN came down to a guy who had played online for a couple years vs a guy who was an Omaha specialist.

I think its not so much the presence of good luck that he was referring to, as much as the absence of bad luck. You can have the better hands and still lose to bad luck suckouts. You can have worse hands and win the same way. The players playing the worse hands are very lucky that their bad moves didn't catch them with their pants down. The players playing the smart way are lucky nobody upset the big hands or called a major bluff with nothing and hit. Games of chance like cards inherantly involve luck, and even the greatest players know that. It's just that the greatest players have learned over time through experience exactly how much risk they are willing to put in the hands of luck to be profitable. That tends to make all the difference.

Let's not forget that an unknown with poker skill can be a huge threat at the WSOP. Luck does play a factor, sure....but moreso is about understanding the odds, decision-making, and timing.

In particular, someone the professionals see as "dead money" is going to be dangerous, because they slip in under the radar. Guys with sound poker skills, a set of brass balls, and a decent poker face (with no obvious tells) are always a threat.

Not surprisingly, when the relative noobs get a win, it becomes that much harder for them to get another one. Same goes with the established pros that have never won the main event at the WSOP. Once they get a reputation as a player, players tend to respect them a bit more, and aren't quite as daring playing against them. Imagine yourself playing heads up against Chan, or Doyle Brunson, or Amarillo Slim....odds are that you'd take them a lot more seriously than they'd take you. And your play would reflect that level of respect that you'd afford them as past world champs.

Compare that to how you play when online, or at a casino, or playing your drinking buddies in a home game. That's why guys like Moneymaker are such a threat....at least until they make a name for themselves.

Bring the noise.
Cheers............

Interestingly, that particular knack is referred to as Skill.

I was just reading one of his books last night, thanks.

Many people get lucky and lose. ONE person gets lucky and wins. But the fact is, if you win, you got lucky. Everyone gets lucky once in a while. So yes, winning a lot of tournaments in the long run is skill. That doesn't negate what I said.

In his book he says as much several times. According to Cloutier, when Chan won his first WSOP he got in a race situation 12 times towards the end and won all 12. Had he lost all 12, he wouldn't have won, end of story.

Cloutier has plenty of examples in his book of him making the right play and losing, and people making the wrong play and losing. He says in the book that anyone can win one tournament; what makes someone a champ is a history of winning.

I would go on but clearly you know nothing about tournaments. It's not like what I said was controversial, every pro will tell you the same thing. Tourney win = skill + luck.

Edit: In his book Cloutier also specifically states that to win you have to win race situations. In fact he goes farther than that. He states that to win you have to win race situations where AK is involved. His exact words were something like "to win a tourney you have to win with AK and win against AK."

Absolutely, unless you win a couple "coin-flip" situations, you cannot win a big tournament.  You HAVE to get lucky sometimes, the random nature of cards dictates that it be this way.

Well since this seems to be the new poker thread I have a question.

Has anyone tried the $20+2 Sit & Go's on Poker Stars? How do you think they compare to the $10+1's?

The reason I ask is I have decided to try a Sit&Go bankroll challenge where I always play at bankroll/10. So, at $110 - $220 I play $11's and at $220+ I play$22's. I started at $110 and quickly built up to $220. I've now been stuck bouncing back and forth between the $22's and $11's for 3 months. I've played 5 of the $22's and 4 of those I finished on the bubble (4th) and the 5th I played horribly and bounced early.

I know it's a small sample size so far but it seems (to me at least) that the play at the $22's is significantly better than the $11's. I'm wondering if I've just had some short term bad luck or if I've possibly found my skill cap.

Anyone have any comments?

In my experience the $20 games are much increased in skill level from the $10. Basically I think $10 and $5 SnGs are no different, and I've had similar experiences in both. I've played probably 6 $20 games and been rocked in each one. They play a more varied style of check raising and hard bluffs. They play fewer bad hands and are typically much more passive/aggressive on the good ones. They suck in people trying to steal pots with nothing when they've made a set on a pocket pair. In essence, its not that they are much better, its just that the old tactics in the $10 game that would push people around wont work in those games and you'll pay for it.

It's basically a whole new learning curve.

That has been my general experience as well. $10 might be a quarter-step tougher than $5 on the average, but the difference is negligible most of the time. $20 are a different story- my success there is much lower (did win the only $30 I ever played though!). If you are beating the $10 regularly, it won't hurt to mix some $20 or even $30 in. Things take another jump skill-wise at $50, as I understand it.

I can't do a damn thing at Stars. Treading water forever.  I finally cashed and am exclusive at Party now. Much better results. Don't know if that is a comment on Stars or on my play.

Just a comment from the sidelines:  I've been watching more poker and getting into poker games with my buddies while reading about all of your exploits, good stuff.  One thing I've noticed IS the wild and crazy behavior when there aren't enough stakes at risk.

Case in point, that Stars playing Poker TV show (can't remember the real name of the show.)  While some of them play really well and others do not, I've noticed when it comes down to the end of the game, they start going nuts like going all in on a 73 different suits before the flop!  I swear they just give up at some point because basically it isn't their money and they won't win anything except for a charity at the end.

Then I watch the real poker games in Vegas and it is totally different.  They actually play like I think it should be played.  Poker is such a gutsy game.  If you play for low stakes it isn't all that fun.  If you play for high stakes, it rocks for fun, but you can really lose your ass in the end.

Carry on...

Toward the end of a tournament when the blinds are HUGE and and it's head to head action you pretty much want to see every flop unless your hand is a real stinker.  Remeber the less people on the table the better a mediocre hand is.

It's something like Celebrety Poker Challange.

On the All In thing though, I was watching the World Series of Poker thing on TV and it was the last two people in the tourney.  One had a huge chip advantage and the other guy just kept going all in.  He would just look at his cards and go all in every hand.  Crazy, but it worked.  Except for the last time he tried it.

I need a bit of advice. Last night I was playing at the $10 SnGs on Stars and I kept busting out fourth because of EXTREMELY tight/aggressive opponents. The problem was that when I got a hand I could never make any money on it, and when I tried to bluff these bastards would raise up on me. Like I'd be on the button, see an opening, raise the pot and get re-raised for big chips and have to fold out. I just got frustrated and went back down to $6 turbos where I placed first and third.

Any strategies you like against the tight tables or the seemingly tight agressive players?

If you are on the bubble and it is no limit, there really isn't any reason to just raise. At any point in the tourney,  if the raise is even close to about 35% of your stack, just go all-in. On the bubble, if you are going to play at all, just go all in.  People will need better hands to call you and will tighten up trying to get into the money. Just steal the blinds and put pressure on smaller stacks. The only exception is if you have marginal but playable hand and the only opponant left to act is a huge stack advantage over you and who has a propensity to call. Then you shoud just muck it.

Raising and folding to a reraise is a disaster on the bubble. Don't ever do it. Either commit to the hand and go all in (or trap if it is a monster) or just  dump it.

Well I'm glad to know I'm not imagining a large jump in skill level from the $10's - $20's. That gives me some reassurance. And the fact that I've been pretty consistently coming in 4th tells me that it's only a matter of time before I cash in one of the $20's. It's just frustrating that I've blown about $110 on those and haven't cashed yet and in the same time frame I've won $110 on the $10 tables...

Now I have to decide if overall I can make as good of a profit at the $20 tables. Otherwise when looking just at long term profit I may just be better off sticking to the $10 tables. Then again that's a recipe for stagnation as I will never have a real desire to improve... Decisions, decisions.

Well...

With the buzz here, I decided to open an account on Poker Stars tonight and played in 5 10+1 sit-n-go tourneys.  It was an education... I never realized how tight I play, but it rapidly became appearant .  Here's how I did:

Tourney:
1. 7th
2. 6th
3. 3rd (in the money)
4. 4th (GAH!)
5. 2nd (was the chip leader entering head-2-head and got crap cards)

Overall not bad.  I got 25 fpp's and ended up only losing $10 over about 5h of poker.  

Observations:  Unless you get pooched with a great hand, it's pretty easy to stay in the top 6.  The key is managing your chips and knowing when to jump on antes by playing aggressive.  I only finished 7th my first tourney because my poket aces got beat by pocket 8's that hit an 8 on the river.  I congratulated the guy nicely and moved on.  I was surprised that most of the people I played with kept their cool.  In only one tourney did someone blow their top and it was because they lost on a dumb play.  

Finishing in the money was tougher.  I tried to wait out opportunities, but many of the other players were pretty decent.  Catching them trying to buy a pot was the best way for me to increase my stack... luck on the river also bailed me out twice, but I think that's true for most of us.  Having played in casinos, I do miss having the ability to watch my opponent's tells. I have to admit that I enjoyed it more than I thought.  Online is a nice way of playing when the mood strikes you.  

I have no delusions of making money at this... I'll be just happy to lose my money slowly enough to get some solid entertainment.

I deposited $300 into Pokerstars ver the weekend to take advantage of their 20% bonus right now.  It was an education.

Recently, I've been utterly kicking the fuck out of the $10 SnGs at Party.  To say that didn't happen at 'Stars would be a mild understatement.  

It's very difficult to play my hyper-aggressive style on Stars when you start out with so many chips.  I find my bluffs get called down much more often because people figure they can aford to lose a Pot-Sized bet when they have $1500 in chips.

I dunno, I'm trying to adjust.  But it's been rough heh.

How was vegas?

It was awesome.  I wrote up a trip report on the front page of WTFman.com.

I've started playing 2 Table $5.50 SnG's for the better payoffs and because I rarely miss making it to the final table. Last night I placed 1st and 2nd, for a net profit of $52 in less than 3 hours. I must say, I like the risk/reward of 2 Tables if you can consistently make it to the final table and have a shot at the money. They pay four places also, which is a big help if you are any good.

The one I won was a great story. I was down to my last $1000, and the leader was close to 10K. Desperation mode kicks in as I go all-in on pocket 8s. Leader calls me with KQo and doesn't catch, so I double up. Next hand I get ATs, all-in again. Get called again by the leader with KQs, and I catch the A. Now at 4K, I start playing my game and make it to 6K. The guy in second place goes all-in with 5K as I catch pockets Qs, so I follow. He has AKo, and catches the A on the flop, but coupled with a Q, so I make my set and knock him out. As the chip leader I proceed to bleed out the third place guy until he finishes and face off against the previous leader with a 2-1 chip lead. After a short while he goes all-in after a flop of A,6,J. He goes all-in, I call. He flips over A6, I flip over AJ...Game over. I was stunned at the comeback and my luck in general in that game, but it was a memory that lets me know you have to be at zero before you are ever out of a game.

Not internet-related, but if you find yourself in southwestern New York, check out the Seneca Allegeny [they spell funny up that way] Casino.   Physically, the place is a dump (they are building an actual casino and are using temporary buildings now), but the play there is the very definition of loose/passive.  I was up there over the weekend (my in-laws live up that way).  You see 6 or 7 people calling to the river and nobody raising over and over again.  I was at a table for about 6 hours and there were literally less than 10 hands that did not go to a showdown.  Nuts.

The best is when you buy a free card and people bitch at you for beating them on the river.  Twice I had AXs on the button, flop the 4-flush, raise on the flop, turn is a blank, they check around to me, I check, river finishes the flush, someone bets, couple callers, I raise, they call and cry bullshit because they got rivered.  Twice.

I am not a great player by ANY stretch of the imagination, but if you have even a basic idea what to do, you can't lose.

The downside is that you can't get a game higher than $5/$10, at least on a Sunday.

Heh- that sounds like a lucrative game to play in. Maybe you should visit your in laws more often!

My copy of Small Stakes Hold 'Em (http://www.twoplustwo.com/) arrived yesterday. I have only read the first 40 pages or so, but I can already tell that it is going to help tremendously. It is less about fancy plays like some of the more advanced Sklansky books are (his books are predicated on playing with opponents who have a clue); it just tells you how to beat games with a large retard quotient (which is most low limit games these days, especially brick and mortar games).

I am telling you guys, but don't spread the word! God forbid the fishies learn how to play! =P

That's weird Pig Destroyer. I have the exact opposite problem. I do really well on Stars Sit & Go's (43% ITM on the $5.50's and 46% ITM on the $11's) but I do horrible at Party where I'm closer to 30% in the money.

The format on Stars fits me better as I tend to only play monsters until I'm forced to play. On Party with the short stacks and quick blinds it makes you play a lot earlier.

I actually took 3rd place in a $11 stars tourney last night having only played 3 hands and my only win was a blind steal. It took a total of 30 minutes and I was at $1300 and the other two were $5000+. Of course when I move in on the AQ and get a call from A8 the 8 rivers to boot me....

I then played another $11 on stars and took first.

Then I hopped on Party and played 3 $6 tourneys and I took 3rd in one and out of the money in the other two.

The difference is in the way you and I play.  I am really aggressive, always firing pot sized bets at people.  Due to the small amount of chips you get at Party, people are far less likely to call a Pot Sized bet with mediocred hands.

At Stars however, with 1,500 chips, people will call you down with 2nd pair and sometimes 3rd pair on a good pot sized bet.  Unfortunately for me, I am bluffing too much and getting caught.  

This morning however, I calmed down a bit, didn't make too many stabs at too many pots, and I placed first in a $11 SnG on Stars.  This was after my Pocket Aces got cracked by Presto when the flop came 2 4 5 and left me with 500 chips with the blinds at 100/200.

Hopefully, this is the beginning of a long winning streak :D

I just wanted to thank you for that link.  As someone who plays almost exclusively in live games with shitty players, that book was a great read.  So many little things I have been doing wrong.

I am only a little over 1/2 through it, but it has helped a bunch so far. I thought the section about counting outs was brilliantly written.

I had a good weekend- cleared my bonus at Stars ($120), then took the money out and dumped it into Party, and cleared THAT bonus in a few hours of multi-tabling (another $100). Bonus whoring can be profitable, especially when you are holding your own/winning while clearing the bonuses.

Ok. I've been getting into Texas Hold'em myself some lately--been reading, watching some of the many programs now on the teevee with it featured, and playing with friends now and again.

I'd like to try something like Pokerstars. But.

I'm a serious fraidy cat when it comes to the following two things put together:

Internet

and

Gambling.

Mostly because Internet gambling sites seem to me to operate in the bad neighborhoods of the Net, one stop away from the assholes who use misspellings of common domain names to try and infect people with spyware or phishers from Eastern Europe trying to dupe people into giving them their eBay password.

So, like, is Pokerstars safe and secure and all that? If so, maybe it's worth a shot.

I've been on Poker Stars for about a yea now and have had no problems cashing in or out using Neteller. I have also briefly used GamingClubPoker, Ultimate Bet, Party Poker, and Royal Vegas and have had no problems cashing in our out of any of those systems.

Over the last couple of years I've run around 15k through various poker sites without any problems whatsoever.

I would stick to the more established sites- Pokerstars, Party Poker, Paradise, and Ultimate Bet (the big 4, in my view). The smaller ones are too volatile for my tastes- they feel like they could go under at any time.

I should have clarified. By "various" I mean the big, well established ones Wayabvpar mentioned (I'd throw in Truepoker too).

I like Stars, I'm doing better on there now that I've finally shed the stupid starting hand decisions I was making as a rookie. Hell, I've even limped into the money by tighening up near the end and letting other people ride the crazy train into stupidville.

Case in point, four people left last night at the table, one heavy chip leader with $7500, one at $3K, one at $2K, and me at $800. I kept my cool and didn't make rash decisions based on my stack while I watched the second place guy go heads up against the big stack before the flop. Big stack had pocket Ks, and the second place had AK that didn't catch. Then the next guy ahead of me made an even dumber decision by going all in with top pair when the big stack was raising with two eights on the board. Needless to say, big stack was holding an eight and won with a boat. Thus I found myself moving from a bad place all the way up to second place because hiding from the crazy action nets good things in SnGs. After all, its not about who has the most money with four left, its about who's left standing when the dust clears.

Been practicing at Stars in the playmoney tables. Definitely I have some bad habits I have to lose before I actually put real money into this. It's very hard to let go of what looks like a good hand, plus it's very hard to sort out the dummies who are staying in hands when they've got nothing versus the people who are really only betting on good-odds hands. I've been losing some painful showdowns on the river in particular...

Play money tables are good for learning the basics (interface, rules, etc). However, you won't see anything resembling normal play. Once you feel comfortable with how things work, dump $50 in and play the microlimit tables (you can go as low as $.02/$.04 IIRC). This will give you a slightly better idea of how a real game will work. If you are serious about learning, buy some poker books and read them- if they win you 1 pot at even low limits during your lifetime, they will have paid for themselves!

I would suggest Theory of Poker (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1880685000/qid=1091733403/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-6442795-8214441?v=glance&s=books), Hold 'Em Poker (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1880685086/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/002-6442795-8214441), Hold 'Em Poker for Advanced Players (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1880685221/ref=pd_sim_books_1/002-6442795-8214441?v=glance&s=books), and Small Stakes Hold 'Em (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1880685329/qid=1091733521/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-6442795-8214441?v=glance&s=books). Probably wanna read SSHE before HEFAP, since the latter is geared more toward playing against competent opponents (which are rarer at low limits).

Great statement about stupidville.  I've been playing now for about 2 months online and have found the sites to be reliable.  As for my personal performance, I can honestly say this: I inevitably make one mistake per sit-n-go tourney.  Sometimes it doesn't cripple me, others have given me a quick exit.  Being patient is a must to stay in the black.  Wait out your opportunities and know who will and won't call your bluffs.  

One of the more valuable tools I've created is a note sheet of people tendencies.  Sure, this sounds anal... but we're talking about real money here.  I know who plays loose, who's tight, and who the wildcards are when I see them again (which is more often than you'd think if you play during a regular time window).

The other thing I've learned is that sometimes smart play gets crushed by dumb luck.  The other night I went all-in calling a repeat raiser and ended up with my pocket A's against their pocket K's.  I felt pretty good about my chances but still was crushed by a K on the river.  Play the odds, but know that it's always still a gamble.  

The shocking thing I've found is that I never get upset with anyone but myself.  If someone calls my bluff... good for them.  If I take a beat on the river, that's my risk.  Taking my beats with grace is possibly the best lesson I've taken with me from the experience.  It's a game... even money shouldn't detract from that.

No to be a total whore (well, okay, to be a total whore), but I am an affiliate at Party and will give you a 10% rake rebate if you sign up there, plus a sign up bonus of 20% (up to $100). You will get the 20% sign up bonus pretty much regardless, but if you sign up using a bonus code I give you you will be able to get 10% of the rake you pay to Party back. You will have to get pokertracker (which you will want anyways) and keep track of the rake you pay (it is pretty easy in the program) and then report it to me on a monthly basis at which point I will give you 10% of your total rake paid back.  It can add up over time.  Full disclosure: I am also getting a cut of your rake. Many affiliates don't tell you they are doing this and don't give you any rebate. If I get enough players going under this, I can up the amount you get back as Party ups the total percentage going back to the affiliate.  I switched from Party to Empire so I could get a rake rebate going on my play. PM me if you are interested.


(Mods: If this is too much of a commercial or is just plain out of bounds, please delete. I don't mean to offend, but I just think it can be beneficial to new players going online.)

Something for the newbie player to remember in SnG's, especially in the early game, is not to go all-in on too many coinflip situations. That means if someone else goes all-in and you think he's holding a pocket pair, and you are holding any kind of draw cards, including AK, don't reduce your game to a coinflip. Better to fold those good cards early than to risk your entire stack on a basically 50/50 chance. Play the skill game, pay to see some flops when you have good cards, and make others pay to see them when you have better cards.

NOTE: This doesn't apply when the game is down to 4 players. At that point, calling with AK and even going all-in with it in a short-stacked situation is a must. This only refers to not shooting yourself in the foot early, which many rookies tend to do.

I would still like to toss out some love to http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1886070156/qid=1091739307/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-6718778-7639939 as a good "first poker book."  I think it is more accessable (and much shorter) than the 2+2 books, and gives you a solid foundation in the game.  It won't maximize your return, but if you really understand and apply everything in that book, you will get a lot more out of the Sklansky books when you get to them.

LONG thread on 2+2 where a couple of other others dissect Lee Jones' book (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=812875&page=5&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1#812875).

I read that thread a couple of weeks after I finished Jones' book, and I have to say that I agree with the critiques of it (although I think some of the statements were a bit harsh). It advocates a weak tight approach to low limit games many times...you can make some money playing like that, but it isn't optimal. It also sets you up to get KILLED at higher levels. Contrasted with Ed Miller's SSHE book, I think Miller's book is light years ahead of WLLHE. However, it has been the subject of some fairly broad misinterpretations which are costing people some money when the theories are misapplied, so I highly recommend reading other books first to get a feel for 'correct play' and then go from there.

I don't think Jones should be the last thing you read, just the first.  Even Ed Miller said that Jones' book may well be the best available beginner's guild to Hold'Em strategy in that thread (I stopped when Sklansky started spamming "I am a prick" over and over, but I'll check out the rest of it later I hope).  I think that 99% of the beginners who read Miller first are going to make enormous blunders trying to pull off those plays.  Jones is probably overly conservative, but that's a good counter for most players initial tendency to play way too many hands and go way too far with them.  Miller speaks to unhealthy tendencies that most players start out with (especially "look for a reason to stay in").  I see Jones' "look for a reason to fold" as an essential "break them down before you build them up" boot-camp strategy.  

Yes, Jones will get you killed in better games if you play by the text without modifying your strategy.  But so will Miller.  Maybe even worse because Miller's approach depends more heavily on your opponents playing ass hands and playing them badly.  Calling Axs early position in a tight medium limit game with 2 other players seeing the flop after a raise and a reraise will get you slaughtered.

Anyway, I don't want to come across as argumentative, I just think Jones is getting a bit of a rew deal.

EDIT: Damn, Sklansky is about the most annoying, thread-derailing, troll prick I have ever encountered on the internet.  Honestly.

I am on a huge rush at the 3/6 tables on Party (up 1200 bucks in the last week). I've been playing the jackpot tables. Ya, it is an extra .25 of rake, but there are tons of chasers and gamblers there who play like crap but are hunting a piece of the JP.

One disturbing item though, I just sat at a table with someone whose handle was: Goatse

I'm having shit for luck now after a good run at the tables early on in the month. It seems like any combination of high ace draws I'm getting never materialize on the flop anymore. I've had times where I've had pocket Kings, bet big, got called and the Ace comes on the flop, which hurts. I just need a pick-me-up that tells me it will turn around.

What do yall do when you start to get a run of cold cards to help stem the tide?

If you're talking about the sit-n-go tourneys I'll say this.  Even with crap cards, I can usually sneak into the money about 1/3 of the time by playing with people at the $5 and $10 tables.  If you play tight early and steal a few pots once the field gets to about 6-7, you can usually build enough of a stack to sit by and watch people get eliminated by going all-in on J9 os. A great piece of advice I once got was to never go all-in early with a coinflip hand.  Patience and chip management has kept me in the money far more often than a hot card streak.

As far as taking beats, I totally understand your frustration.  I had a night this week where I was making great hands all night long.  Problem was that there was always someone just one card better.  Bad players will win on occasion, but in the long run you'll come out ahead with better strategy.  Sure, they'll catch that inside straight on the river to burn you once in a while... the key is to keep them in the other 9/10 times when they don't.

Fold more.  I usually find when I am running bad it is not really because of the cards, but because I am pressing and playing too many hands or playing them too far when I can tell I am beat.  I have to make a concious decision to become more disciplined and ride it out.  That or cash out and take a break for a week or two.

This is good advice. Also, go back and reread your favorite poker book to reinforce some good habits.

I will consider this the de facto poker thread now, since it has more recent posts than the last one =P

I had to share this. I was playing a $10 2 table SnG last night on Poker Stars. One idiot would raise all in whenever anyone raised his blind. About the 4th orbit, I raised with AKs, he went all in, and I snapped his AQo off and he went home.  From there, I caught a ton of cards and played exceptionally well to boot, and built a big stack. The following hand happened soon after we got to the final table-



Craziest hand I have ever seen. Analysis- UTG+1 was shortstacked, so an all in with A9s isn't a terrible play, especially if he thinks UTG might fold. I have the 4th best starting hand in the game and a monster stack- I shoved to shut out anyone behind me who might get cute and try to outdraw us; I wanted to take on the two short stacks alone (in case UTG calls). I nearly vomited when I got 2 (!!!!) callers.

AQ has no business cold-calling a 3rd raise (with 2 all ins)- he is almost assuredly way behind, and likely dominated. KK- After 4 raises (3 all ins), I probably fold KK here, even with a short stack- 3 people are going home (at least), and I would expect to see AA more times than not.

So- after this hand I had a gafgantuan stack, and just battered the hell out of everyone with it. I eventually got it to heads up with the guy next to me, who had been all in several times already and had either had nice hands or hit his draws to stay alive. He wasn't shy about betting his chips if he thought he had a chance.

The next sequence of hands occurred in less than 15 minutes ( I would guess). My fluctuating stack indicates my successful blind steals and the like between the big hands. Witness the carnage-



Just a fucking brutal series of hands. I was seriously shellshocked by the end of it. Any thoughts?

Hard to tell without the intervening hands to get a flavor of the back and forth. Seems like early you were too anxious to put him out so you called his raises with some questionable cheese, even heads up.  You doubled him up to the point where he could hurt you a bit.  A couple of those are just brutal suck-outs, so may not have mattered in the long run. Blind squirrell syndrome seems to be in full effect.  I also don't like your heavy action with the flopped middle pair when he bets into you.

Three hands really jump out at me as being highly questionable. First, the J3s call on an all-in. I know you're the big stack and hoping for a suckout draw, but still, you're basically giving the guy a free ride with that hand. In those scenarios I would only call with gapped suited connectors at worst. If you had J7s, that would be light years better.

The Axs thing I can see making the call on if the guy has been making iffy bets all game and you see him playing his stack, you just didn't catch your draw, no real problem there.

AJs v. ATo is a bad suckout there, no doubt about it. That's just luck biting you in the ass.

On the pocket Jacks, you misplayed it after the flop, no doubt about it. You have the high pair, no straights or flushes on the board, and an overall rags flop. I think you tried to get cute and sucker him into a bigger bet, but he didn't play ball. In reality you should have just bet big and taken the blinds with the possibility of a four flusher out there. Betting $600 with that much money is basically handing him a free card, and you're opening yourself up to either a flush, or an AKQ overcard. Take the bird in the hand there.

On the last hand with K7o, we both know that's a questionable hand to play heads up, but it's what I call a "tester hand." It's one you can throw money out there to see the reaction if you are the aggressor, but its not one that you call if you are the BB unless its a small raise. Really, since you were the agressor, you shouldn't be limping at this point. I would have bumped him two more BBs to see the flop. If you get re-raised, fold, but its an information gaining hand. Once you caught middle pair on the rags flop I know what you were thinking. You're thinking he's got high cards and he's gonna bluff them, but I'm holding a pair. Most likely you'd be right, but to bet him all-in with middle pair puts you at a disadvantage. You should certainly raise big, but if you get called or re-raised, you need to have a way to get out. All-in on a middle pair with two cards coming is a huge gamble, even if he is on an overcard draw.

Just my .02, the AJs thing was fucking brutal though, at that point I think I would be walking tilt road.

OK, I am starting to get sucked in to Partypoker now.  I still don't like it nearly as much as live, but I only get to play live maybe 4 or so times a year.  I miss the felt and the chips though.  Plus, my wife has not expressed interest in wearing a Bellagio coctail waitress outfit and bringing me gin and tonics for a buck tip.

At first I was off balance because of the much faster speed of play.  Also, the players seem slightly less shitty, or shitty in different ways, than most of the live players I have played with (my patented "limp with suited connectors in any position because nobody raises preflop ever and throw money in hand over fist when you flop 4 to the nuts because 6 other morons will call every bet no matter what they have"* is no longer uber.

ANYWAY, What I need is a good book on tournament strategy.  I play well in ring games, but I know in tourneys/S&Gs I should be giving more weight to the tournament prizes than I do (e.g. if I am 1 seat out of the money and have a chance to call all in after the turn with the pot giving me 3-1 odds on a draw to the nuts I have a 50% chance of hitting, I am 100% positive what I should do in a ring game but a bit unsure of what to do in a tournament/S&G).

My biggest weakness in ring games is playing short-handed, which obviously transates to S&Gs, but I know where to go to fix that.  I need a good tourney book though.

That all being said, I have been doing quite well on Party $10 and $20 pot limit S&Gs for a couple weeks now, just playing basic ring game strategy (and playing way too tightly shorthanded.)  It never ceases to amaze me that no matter how poorly I play, there are so very many people who play so very much worse.


*there is more to it, but yes Sklansky would think I am a weak tight suckass.

Go to the tourney forums (the Multi-Table and Single Table)  on twoplustwo.com.  I think they are the best forums on that site, particularly the SnG where there is a FAQ which has links to good threads.  I have read Sklansky's Tournament Poker for Advanced Players and think it has some good stuff like the "Gap Concept" so you may want to try that as well.

My biggest piece of advice short handed is make people make hard decisions when you are in the lead, and avoid making gambles when in the shorter stacks. That alone will bleed people out and leave you in the money when people make stupid calls.

For example, you hit top pair on the flop and there's a possible four flush out there, put the short stacks all-in to call their flush draw. On the flip side, the smart play if that happens to you is to let them go if you are the short stack unless the blinds will eat you up next go around.

Also, I am big on the philosophy of playing extremely tight early on. Some disagree since the blinds are lower, but I suggest that by playing on the top ten hands at first, you let the crazy players bust themselves out fast, and then you don't have to deal with people who don't respect a good bet. Plus, you don't get sucked out by the nutters holding 73 off that make a straight against your AK. Playing tight early also opens up the your bluffing options when the bigger blinds come around. You can steal off the button much easier when people catch on that you are only playing top hands.

The intervening hands were mostly blind steals or limps with folds to a flop bet. I was steadily rebuilding my stack each time, but could not get him commited to a pot to save my life. I had played with him for the entire tournament, and had a pretty good feel for how he played. He was big on betting draws, which is why I went at him so hard on my K7 hand- I had a made hand, and I was almost certain he was on a draw. I was also probably tilting a bit after all the suckouts.

J3s-I was in the BB with a 20k stack; it cost me less than 5% of my stack to try to bust him. Not the best play, but I make this more times than not. If I miss, it encourages him (hopefully) to play back at me when I bet into him with a big hand later.

JJ- As I said above, it was tough to get this guy to put any chips in the pot. JJ is a MONSTER hand heads up, so I was hoping to make it look like I was cautiously betting 2nd pair or so to get him to play back at me.

It depends on what you mean by monster hand. Yes, heads up JJ is awesome, but ONLY pre-flop. If you can sucker him into an all-in then, you've got it made in the shade since he's likely a 3-1 dog or worse.

Once you get into the flop, anything and everything can change. You can get one or more overcards, a flush board, a four flush, or a pair. All of those spell disaster for the Jacks. Basically, I'm a big advocate of not letting someone suck me out when I can take what's mine. If you catch them being stupid, so be it, but in the long run of a heads up game, you shouldn't be worried about the monster hand. It's about bleeding them out until they must start making bad calls. I like to let them walk into their own traps, myself.

If he played any draw, I don't like your k7 hand even more. You aren't getting him to fold which is really the only reason to bet all-in like that and your hand is so vulnerable, I wouldn't want much money in the pot at risk.  It looks like he got real, real lucky, but you put yourself in the postition for that to happen with tiny edges (except the JJ hand) when you could have waited him out a bit to get better shots at busting him.

Paelos- have you played much heads up? Not that I am an expert or anything, but in my experience often ANY pair (either on the board or wired) is a winner heads up. There is no one else there donating to help increase your pot odds, so dicking around with iffy draws for a lot of money is generally unwise. I think he decided to make a stand with a couple of draws (which you have to do when there is such a disparity in chips) and got lucky; I didn't help matters by making it easier for him to play.

Abagadro- He was pretty timid about calling big reraises without a made hand; he would bet out with a draw (or maybe A high), but wasn't afraid to fold if he got played back at- I had been doing it to him and others all game long once I had a big stack (with or without holding a big hand). The reason I bet him so hard on the K7 hand was that I was pretty sure he was betting a draw- I was hoping to push him out of the pot while I still had a stack large enough to scare him. When he called, I knew I was in trouble.

I appreciate the feedback from you both- it really helps to bounce these things around.

HEaded to Tahoe in about 9 hours- woohoo!

I agree with Abagadro, it seems you reversed the strategy into slowplaying the good hands and overplaying the edges. If the guy is a tight player who won't commit to throwing money in the pots as you said, why with middle pair do you put him all-in when he's already come out betting hard? That alone says he's got a great draw or even worse has suckered you hard. When you had K7 v. his 96s after that rags flop. He's holding 11 outs on his draw. That's 41% to make the draw by the river that leaves him with a better pair or the straight, so the call on his side makes complete sense.

Yeah I play a good bit heads-up, and generally I'm a winner in SnG's, but that comes from the fact that you play your percentages early before the flop. You were holding pocket Jacks (77% winner). He's holding 63o (33% winner). You own his soul preflop, but you let him limp it in when he folds to almost any decent raise. Sure, you could have milked him hard, but I find its best to make them pony up preflop, then go for the jugular when the money is committed. Personal style though I suppose, but I've found when I try to get cute with pockets something comes up to ruin my day on the board.

Great advice and suggestions... now I could use some as well.

I am making money playing online, so no real gripes.  My biggest problem is that I've become so good at waiting out "Stupidville" that I often finish 2nd or 3rd at the sit-n-go tourneys and rarely place first.  

Any advice on winning the head-to-heads?  I seem to get them committed with weaker hands, but always seem to lose on the turn or river.  Maybe it's just Lady Luck mocking me.

What is the best way to be successful once the game is down to 3 players?

My formula is to draw a line in the sand based on what you've seen and play the starting hands you know will beat your opponents. Also, whenever you're on the button and you even THINK you can steal the blinds, raise it up. My standard is this when its down to three:

AA-TT: All-in if short, 4xBB or more if first raiser, all-in against any raise
99-22: All-in if short, 1xBB raise otherwise, call up to a 3xBB raise
AK-AT: All-in if short, 3xBB raise or more depending, all-in against a reraise
A9-A2: All-in if short and suited, otherwise 50% of stack, 2xBB raise, 3xBB call
Kxs: limp if possible, raise on the button
Suited connectors down to 87s: limp if possible, call up to 3xBB, never call an all-in with less that KQs preflop
Two Overcards offsuited: I tend to bet these large for info 2-4xBB depending on the player, but that's up to the situation.

On the flop I'm all-in if I have the high pair with a good kicker. I'm all-in if I have high pair and there is a four flush on the board. I bet the pot if I've got middle pair or a great draw hand (ie- four flush w/overcards, rags flop with AK-AT, outside straight draw)

Hope that helps :)

That helps a ton...

I'm now wondering how many of my losses have come to you.

Thanks for the input!

Here's a question I have for people. When it comes to SnG's do you prefer the Partypoker or Pokerstars style? I find Party to have a very large stratification of talent in the $10+1 games from "I'll bet anything to the river" to "I'll bet with pockets, maybe." OTOH, Stars gives you much more leeway with blinds to be a tight-agressive player even though the players are better. Too often at Party the blinds have chewed me up fast due to the shorter stacks.

So which is better for the tight/aggressive player? The poorer players or the lenient blinds?

Party's players are FAR worse than Stars, but I hate their structure, their software, their lobby, pretty much everything. The PP structure is just too much of a crapshoot- you only start with 800 chips, and blinds go up every 10 hands. That is not enough room for a good player to really take advantage, IMHO.

I tend to play at Stars.  

Another observation: playing in the $20, $25, and $30 tables has been a much better experience for me overall.  The game plays better and you have fewer idiots calling anything just to "see what you have".  

As an aside: What the hell is up with people talking smack at the $5 - $10 tables?  It's small time... don't they get that?  

I enjoy the tables above $20 a lot and find that even when I take a bad beat that the people tend to be a bit better caliber.  I also think that they are easier to get reads on the higher tables (less random all - in with 27 off suit).  I guess if I were smart I'd take advantage of the stupid plays better, but since I consider this entertainment first I prefer the better play experience.

I think I agree, I've felt pressed everytime I get into the later rounds to play hands I want nothing to do with at PP. I would rather go toe to toe with players at the $10 stars tables, but I'm going to blow my bonus at party first. I've already cashed out $100 gain on the $100 bonus so far. Then its back to stars.

I'm really pissed at Party's style now after going heads-up last night and not winning. I just can't get past the fact that when you get to the last two, the blinds are usually 200/400 or more, and with only 8000 in the game, that's so hard to play aggressively. You make one error or get drawn out once, and that's it, the blinds eat your lunch next hand. Nor can you afford to throw away much at all because you know you only get so many hands, so you're forced into bad shit or risk never making a hand when it matters. More often than not I'm going heads up with about 3000 to another guys 5000 due to my tight agressive style in the early rounds. I don't usually gamble much to become the big stack.

Just bitching because I'm getting more and more tired of playing against big stack bullies with little to no knowledge of what to play except their stack size. I got taken out in the last game in the bb with 73o, catching the 7 as the top card on the flop, going all in, and the guy had 97o. I was just like, well shit, that's perfect.

To add something new that I think may help out people on Party, I found that the two table SnG's offer much better play than the one table counterparts. The stacks start at $1000 instead of $800 and the blinds are much slower and more relaxed. It takes 40 minutes just to get to a 50/100 blind level. I found that in the first one I played, a 10+1, my tight/aggressive style fared much better. I actually ended up winning the whole things for an $80 payoff. So the payoffs are better as well. Making it into the top three guarantees a better payoff than second place at a one table.

Try it out if you like, I'll post my continued results as I go along.

I find the steep blind increases at PP a little aggrivating, but it is so easy to place in the money I don't really mind it being a toss-up on which money position you land in.  I will check out the 2-table games.  I have never seen any that looked like they would fill out soon (then again, I usually play PL not NL, which seems to be a lot less popular there).

My advice for good play:

1) Play at Stars and not Party

2) Play the $20 S&G or higher

3) PLay the NL cash tables for intense action

I find the 2 table games frustrating as it takes so long just to get down to the people worth playing against.  I can play a turbo $25 and get to the interesting part of the game faster.

As for finishing in the money, I used to be quite content with just finishing in the money, but now find that that attitude was almost like throwing money away.  The payouts for 3rd in a single table tourney aren't even 2:1 making it so that you need to finish in the top 3 about 60% of the time to stay liquid.  The nice thing though is that once you do get into the money, it's a no lose proposition and you can allow your true playstyle to emerge.  Like I said... this is when it gets fun.

We've got a new thing going on here that has largely kept me from going online yet. We have poker clubs opening up. Basicly its a bar that holds a hold-em tourney every night . 5 bucks to get in and poker is free so they dont run afoul of the law. everyone at the last table gets a small trophy for getting to final table and the winner gets a bigger trophy and is registered in the Friday game. Friday game winners for 11 weeks come together and play for NICE prizes. This 11 weeks top prize was a trip for 2 to Vegas  and 1k spending cash. Next 11 weeks is a 62" bigscreen HD TV and the next one is a new truck. So far I have 4 small trophys and still eyeing a big one but if you have one of these places in town there is absolutly no place better to learn the game as its only a cover charge to get in and you can get a lot of practice in for 5 bucks or so. I'll hook up with you guys online sometime.

I took down another $10+1 two table win last night, and I find that luck played more of a factor late than early. Also, there were many times when I could have gone all in against better judgement, but I instead remembered Sklansky's Gap Concept and played it tighter. I think I've found two keys to winning these tournaments.

1) Patience is absolutely key. There is no substitute for it. The moment you get bored, lose focus, or get ancy, you are going to making stupid calls.

2) Don't start making gambles unless you have to, and by that I mean you are the absolute short stack at the table. As long as somebody there is less than you, let the blinds or bad play take them out.

Took out another $100 from Party after the win, and that puts the Vegas fun at $200 so far. Woohoo! 2.5 months and counting.

Weeeeeeeeee. Poker is so fun!

The guy called a 4x BB raise with K7s, then he calls an all-in with high pair 7 and not even the highest possible kicker???

Destined for greatness he is not. Sorry about the suckout.

Blinds were 10/15 at this point and there were two raises already in front of me, so he called an 8xBB re-re-raise by me and then all in with a tiny pair, second best kicker and no flush possibilites for him with 2 clubs on the board.  Was truly amazing.  That's poker though.

Suckout was brutal, but we all know that these idiots are exactly who we want in our games at all times. It warms my heart to see that sort of incompetence.

Ya me too, except they are tough to take in tourneys. In a ring, you just reload and wait for them to give it back. In a tourney, you are watching them from the rail piss away your chips.

I had a brutal suckout as well playing .50/1 for one of the largest pots I've seen at that level.

I hit a set while holding pocket A's. The other guy hits a set of Q's. Ideal situation right? We cap it back and forth all the way to the river. Sure enough the third guy in the hand, who's cold callling along the entire time, rivers the gutshot straight despite a possible flush draw on the board and having none of that suit.

I would just like to say for the record. Damn you people to hell. Yes I downloaded the PP software and played in the play money areas last night. OMG these people suck.

Yes they do suck, so very very much. Almost to the point of sucking you out on the most ridiculous crap ever, so be wary.

I got back on Stars now due to the 20% EPT bonus they are offering. So I'm playing a bunch of SnG's now in a row. I found that they round up the $5.50 SnG to 3 FPP instead of 2.5, so I'm playing two of those simultaneously instead of one 10+1 to get my bonus faster. I'm also ass-whomping the players which is nice.

First 3 games i sat in on the free stuff i ran the table and ended up with like 70k or more chips before folks would just leave. Its not hard to doink them really hard pay to see flop if you have mediocre cards if not toss em. If you have great cards follow any bet they hit you with and on last raise, raise the piss out of them at this point they have so much invested they have to stay out of some flase sense of bravado or something. I was averaging a 89% win rate on hands taken to showdown.

Ok I have a strategy question this time. I'm curious to see how other's would have played this.

No limit $10 Sit & Go on Stars. Second level 15/30 blinds.

You are on the big blind with 9h3h.

5 limpers to you and you check.

Flop comes down Ah10h8h.

Small blind bets out $60. You call everyone else folds.

Turn is a blank.

Small blind bets out $60 again. I reraise to $180. He calls.

River is another heart.

Small blind bets out $60. I make a crying call and he shows 10cJh.



With the small flush should I have reraised him heavy on the flop to try and force him off the draw or did I do the right thing in trying to extract as much as possible and just get burned on the river?



Edit: By the way there are reload bonuses going on for Stars (20% to $120), Party (SEPREL04 - 15% to $100) and Ultimate Bet (50% to $100) right now. But I think they all end at the end of the month so use em or lose em. Empire also has a 100% up to $500 bonus (MATCHBONUSEP) but you have to work it off by playing 5x the bonus in raked hands in the next 30 days.

With a flush on the board if I'm holding low cards that make it for me, I tend to reraise about 3x the BB or 2-3x the bet depending on the blinds. You want them to make hard choices about chasing a four flush, but also, if they reraise, you know you're screwed. It's a Hellmuth play, raising for information. By calling, you basically gave him a free card. I'm not saying he wouldn't call the raise because he's holding a decent four flush and a middle pair. He might be thinking you are trying to scare him off the draw with an ace. In any case, calling is never ever a good idea because you have no idea where you stand. Even a smaller raise at least puts a question mark in his head, but once you passed on it, worse players are going to call a turn raise because they think you are chasing too.

I think I would have raised on the flop to protect my little flush against a player with a higher 4-flush (or perhaps A/10 or 10/10) at that point.  I don't think that is strong enough to slowplay.

Disclaimer: I suck.

Also, the more I play PP the more I realize that players in live games are MUCH worse than players at PP.  Play at even $15/30 tables in real life is much looser and equally passive compared to a 1/2 table at PP.

edit: grammars is hard

I think it's because players at live games might play for 8-10 hours a week at a home game, or a few days a year at a casino. Players playing for real money online have to protect their money, even when playing small potatoes.....because they can (and often do) end up playing much much more when the game is only as far as their PC.

I'm not real eager to start playing real cash, even though I'm kicking ass on PP using play money (turned 1000 into roughly 10000 so far only playing 5/10 limit games). I don't like being unable to read the players, I play too many hands on gut, and I know I'd be hooked and would start using a "pay to play" justification if I were to start losing.

Right now, my home games and play money practice on PP are enough.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............

Dark Dryad and DV,

Please don't base any decisions on the play money games.  Even the best ring game you will ever find will not have 7 players capping it on every street.  There are guys on here who have played enough real money stuff online to give you good info, so if you have questions ask, but those play money games have absolutely no basis in the reality of poker.

Why bother with the play money?

Download either GamingClub poker or Royal Vegas and open an account. They will seed your account with $10 and it does not require any kind of deposit from you. You don't even need to link bank account info or anything. All you have to do is verify an email address and you get the 10 bucks.

Take the $10 and starting playing their lowest limits, .05/.10 I think. Or, they offer $2 + .50 single table sit&go's. Play 4 of them and see how you do.

Rather than slowly building a bankroll of play money why not waste the time slowly building a bankroll of real money?

Oh i play weekly in live games I was just saying they blow in the playmoney rooms is all.