f13.net

Yeap. woo. It could be better, but it could be a lot worse.

Rogues

   * Due to significant talent changes, Rogues will have all talent points refunded and can be re-spent. Training costs for all talent spell replacements have been significantly reduced.
   * Vanish now removes effects that allow the caster to always remain aware of their target (currently Hunter's Mark and Mind Vision).
   * Pickpocket can now be used on targets that are in combat, as long as the rogue remains stealthed.
   * All manner of rogue reagents can be found in locked junkboxes (obtained from pickpocketing).
   * Fixed a bug where the Slice and Dice ability wasn't playing an animation.
   * Lethargy Root has been removed from poison vendors and is now a gray item.
   * Reduced the number of messages in the combat log when using the Vanish ability.
   * Fixed a bug that made Combo Points disappear from your target when using Vanish.
   * Eviscerate: Manual of Eviscerate (Rank 9) now drops off Blackhand Assassins in Black Rock Spire. In addition, Eviscerate now increases in potency with greater attack power.
   * Garrote: The damage from this ability has been increased. In addition, Garrote now increases in potency with greater attack power.
   * Relentless Strikes: This ability will no longer trigger when your finishing move does not hit your target.
   * Rupture: Rupture now increases in potency with greater attack power.
   * Sap: Enemy rogues will now always lose stealth when you Sap them.

I'll be speccing to http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?005023104000000320305200255010020105000000000000000

with a possible point shifted to relentless from lethality depending on math, and maybe shifting murder to ruthlessness. I just wish there was some math out there. (Quick edit, relentless is better than lethality)

If I was going to ditch AR (which I might still, it might not be all it's cracked up to be) I'll be going with this:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogues2/talents.html?005313105000000320305200055010020005000000000000000
(with possible pt in murder moved to vile)

Thats pretty much the exact same spec i came up with, except im putting 2 points into ruthlessness instead of murder since we have bwl in farm status already.

BTW, some quick math on relentless versus lethality that I did showing ruthlessness is twice as good:

n a 30 second window, you get 300 energy, do 5 backstabs and get 5 combo points. With relentless, you get an extra 25 energy out of it, bringing your backstabs every 30s to 5.41.. that means lethality is equal to an extra 0.41 backstabs, or, over time, an extra 7.75% backstab damage (1 - (5 / 5.41)), and since combat dagger, yellow damage is about half your damage, that works out to 3.87% overall damage.

Lethality, in comparison, is 6% extra crit damage per point. If you give yourself a 65% crit chance for backstab, that works out to 3.9% extra backstab damage, which is 1.95% of your overall.

Personally, I'm more interested in the cross-server battlegrounds.  Those are supposed to go live in this patch, right?  That could be very helpful in cutting down wait times.

Some people in my server's IRC brought up the point that the cross-server BGs are going to dilute further what little relations there were between Horde and Alliance. As it is we generally just clash in BRM and silithus, and a lot of big names on each side get to know each other through BG action.

Of course, before calling wolf we will need to see what actually happens. :)

No, I tend to believe this as well.  They also aren't going to be the panacea for Queus on the Alliance side everyone seems to think they'll be.  Just take a look at http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=7928.msg217465#msg217465 (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=7928.msg217465#msg217465) Jayce's chart to realize that's going to be the case.  You're still going to have the A:H population imbalance.

Wouldn't that be an increase of 5.41/5.0 - 1 = 8.2%?

There was 87 wsg games up on my server about an hour after server up, then it crashed :P

I wish I had realized this was coming.  I've been thinking of rejoining, reinstalled and patched everything two days ago since I got a new HD.

If anyone has a link to the patch, I would love you forever. The Blizzard downlaoder is SHIT.

I'm working on it.

wow wiki has a ton of direct download sites.

http://www.warcraftpvp.net/patch112.zip (http://www.warcraftpvp.net/patch112.zip)

i anticipate that this should be very very fun.

unfortunately, it is currently SOOOOOO buggy that my server has been crashing once every 20 minutes for the last 2 hours, lag is crazy, and while instance queues are nice, STRANGE things are happening in BG's.

I somehow managed to get into a WSG game, an AV game AND an AB game at the EXACT SAME TIME.  Joined an WSG game, but never got ported to WSG.  Manually queued AV and got into av with 1 other horde person (2 horde and 0 alliance).  Then got a quque from my raid and got into AB, where we 5 capped the alliance.  Then the WSG game i had never gotten into ended and it auto booted me out of AB and gave me a deserter debuff to boot :/

Patches are up.

Well, aside from some nasty, nasty lag (I was at over 1000 for an entire match), it seems to be working really well for me.  Got into AB less than a minute after signing up, played a match, finished, did other stuff for twenty minutes, signed up for another round and got in within thirty seconds.  Playing Horde, so I don't know how this is looking Alliance-side, but so far, I'm having a lot of fun.

Edit: AB, not AV... oops.

Wait until the new wears off and the 2:1 A/H ratio is still a 2:1 A/H ratio. Queues will be the same in another week or so. Best thing about it is it offers variety.

Well I got to see 1 hour of fun world PvP on the EPL towers. Then my server got shutdown.

I love seeing all the Rogues come out of the woodwork and get all excited again.  Not so much.

Well, my server is a medium pop PvE server, so outside of prime time the only BGs we have are usually one instance of WSG (and I am SO SICK of WSG it's not even worth contemplating).  It does look like this has improved things a lot; there were eight or more AV instances going constantly in my bracket today.  Queues might not be much better on the Alliance side (though there should still be an overall improvement just due to the line moving faster) , but on the Horde side, it looks very nice.

That said, my server just crashed (again), and I'm getting crazy lag even outside the BGs, so there are clearly some technical issues that need to be resolved.

Emerald Dream's BG's have apparently been down since shortly after the patch.  This lead me to try out the so-called World PVP, which actually doesn't really reward PVPing all that much.  Very little fighting was going on in Silithus, as most people were just picking up the minerals and running them back to their base dodging spiders and scorpions along the way.  You get about 200 honor and 10 CC rep for every turn you do and whichever side turns in 200 first gets a buff that increase CC rep from kills by 25%.  Needless to say few cared about the buff and most people there were just grinding honor while the BG's were down.

The World PVP in EPL was a little more fun, but has a somewhat large problem in that you get 189 honor for taking a tower, but you don't get any extra honor for holding it.  All you get for holding onto towers is a buff for fighting undead, which isn't going to matter much to people out PVPing.  You're almost better off losing control of the towers because then you can retake them and get a small bit of honor again.  I assume most of the honor is supposed to come from the actual PVP, but aside from a few skirmishes, each side pretty much just ran from tower to tower, capping one and then moving on.

The cross server BGs were always about making sure BGs are up all the time on every server to my mind. Battlegroup 9 is going to be insane in that regard, it's got around 3-4 oceanic realms, 2 of which were the "unofficial" aussie servers so they have in themselves a good range of times. I fully expect I'll be able to get my PVP on at all hours if the fancy should strike me. :rock_hard:

Also this patch kinda sorta sucks for alliance PVP realms. Most of them enjoyed a fairly even population balance. But now that they're joined with PVE and RP servers... I went onto an old server where alliance used to get instant ques... hello 10-30 minute waits depending on BG. Not huge sure, but it's gotta sting.

Eh... on my server (crushridge-pvp) I had 5-10m waits before (unless it was AB/WSG weekend... god I hate WSG), and 11-15m waits now, it's not THAT much worse.

On the other hand, seeing all the smack talk on the forums is amusing. I was bored at work and in about 30 minutes, I managed to collect numerous threads from 12 different servers in the battlegroup (it has 15 servers total) all proclaiming how they have the best pvpers in the BG with everyone else being scrubs. I can't wait until it devolves into full-blown vnboard style board warrioring, kek.


-- Z.

Yeah, that's the only real downside for this patch on my Druid (for my Horde Priest, it'd be quite nice if my battlegroup had its BGs up...), but winning AV for once = priceless.

As an aside, it seems that Daggerspine's Horde side is one of the better ones in Group 2 (so I'm used to having uphill fights in all BGs) and the whining from a few of the PvE servers when they're losing a BG is driving me batty. It's like an only child realizing that he is indeed not the center of the universe.

I got into a few BGs before the Eastern Kingdoms crashed on my server.  A few things:

1) They're buggy as fuck.  They had to shut-down WSG on Alleria's BG (or perhaps WSG just wasn't connecting for us.) No explaination why.

2) For the first hour I'd get into a BG, it wouldl start to load me, and then drop me back in Stormwind at the recruiter.  It was happening that way to all my guildmates as well, so it wasn't just my crappy machine.

3) Queues started out pretty quick, with Alleria Alliance dropping froma 2-3 hour wait for AV to 12 mins at one point.  There were 38 instances and 68 ABs going (Queue time of 2-3 mins, down from 3-5 hours on off-holidays since Alleria Horde wouldn't do AB since multiple quick WSGs gave more honor.)   I expect this to go up as the 'newness' wears off but I'm happy to have been proven wrong so far.

4) Anyone trying to grind for High-Warlord/ Grand Marshall right now is fucking insane.   I know there'll be people doing it, but with 24/7 BGs and the incredibly short queue times, you're going to have to be PvPing (and winning) at least 16-20 hours I figure.  (Old GMs on my server said they Queued up a minimum of 10 hours a day on weekdays under the single-server system. I know a guy who was rated #5 on the server one week and he'd done the same to get that high in the ratings, but lost some matches.)

5) X-server Alliance sucks even more than your own server.  You don't know who to listen to, who's a moron or who's competent.  The AV I was in everyone spent their time puttering around on the Field of Strife while Horde wandered and recapped things the few folks on Offense were capping.  After the last few months of AVs not lasting longer than an hour, I found myself getting very frustrated and /afked out.  AB I got into as horde hit 1800 resources, checked the time and it had been up a little over 5 mins.  Yarr.

I get 844 mana back per lifetap.  God has smiled upon the warlocks.

Our warlocks were cheering at the lifetap. If you haven't already, you'll want to check out this (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-warlock&t=1215258&p=1&tmp=1#post1215258).
Cross-server battlegrounds were of course a godsend on our server, I don't think I wanted more than 5m for a battleground the entire night. Even after the shiny wears off, it'll be a boon for my server in particular. It sucks that it drags some of the more balanced servers down.

Combat dagger rogues are back in the top of the damagemeters, which is nice, but I'm still getting a lot of glancing blows. +5 weapon skill is nice, I'd have liked +10.

I feel bad for the scrubs in green and the organized groups that we went up against last night. Gear difference has never been more appaernt to me in pvp than it was last night. 15 people in AB in full tier2+ pretty much makes the game completely onesided. I'm personally unstoppable as a slightly skilled rogue in tier2; I can basically do 1vs2 (except for warlocks, grr), and it was the same pretty much with all of us. It's fun, but it isn't fair.

P.S. Yes I'm bad at math, especially basic math. I had it the other way and was like hrm that can't be right. Oh well.

I had a great time with it last night. Joined up in AB with my guild, and won almost nonstop. The queue times were instantaneous. We'd click the button, and the be in the BG a moment later. When people got tired, I went to AV, and squeezed 4 games in before going to bed. The longest queue I had was maybe 30 seconds, it was awesome.

The range of gear and skill is pretty insane. I ran into an alliance guild with 2 warriors both decked out in Wrath, both with Thunderfurys. In other matches, I'd run into people that I could two-shot again. It was pretty crazy.

At this level, any class that doesn't have the exalted AV rewards by the time they are 60 should be laughed at. Lobotomizers and Glacial Blades for everyone!

Weapon skill won't lower the amount of glancing blows you get (always 40% of white hits), but the damage penalty on them (30% less damage on glancing blows, +3% damage per weapon skill point).  Its basically the same thing unless your crit rate is extremely high (glancing blows can never be crits so you are effectively capped at 60% crit rate.

Oh, I didn't know that. That makes me feel a bit better. It still sucks that they can't be crits, that implies that they actually reduce your damage even moer than I thought, since raid buffed I've got 37%ish to crit base.

That's what I was thinking.

However...

a 2-12 minute wait for WSG and AB now (could take 1hr-90mins for WSG) and about 15-30mins for AV (previously 2hrs-don't even bother).

Generally, you can do a complete WSG or an AB while you wait for an AV and do very little actual sitting on your ass waiting.

My server waits have been about a minute for WSG, 2-3 mins for AB, and the most I've seen for AV has been 10.  It's usually about 5.

Yeah I'm surprised, too.  AB queue is 1min, WSG is a few secs and AV itself is only 16-20 mins.  Looks like there were some actual PVPing hordies out there after all. 

That or this is still 'new' and after a few weeks we'll see the times creep up as people realize just how futile it is to try and rank at all now.   The BG-whores in my guild are all a-twitter at how they're earning 12k honor a day doing just a few hours.  They don't seem to realize that the PvP teams are still out there running as long as pre-patch but winning more matches (due to shorter queue time) and earning 30-40k a day now.

You guys are stealing our horde, queues on my server are much much longer than they where before.  Not only that but the alliance from other servers is dumber than a jar of mayo.  This blows, i wish they would go back to how it was before.

Well, assuming you're from battlegroup 2 [crushridge etc.], the BGs have been completely broken on saturday/sunday. Somehow the number of level60 ABs was capped at 4 and WSGs were capped at 10, leading to happy fun 2-hour queues. AV was a 20-min queue for the most part. Apparently it won't be fixed until tomorrow the earliest, though I think we'll have to wait for the weekly maintenance.

BTW, I've checked the other forums in the battlegroup, and everyone's saying the same thing (all <alliance/horde> that are not from <our_server> completely suck). I think it's just perception.. and people tending to notice the bad players from all servers. Hell, I've seen crazy competent PVPers from Feathermoon (RP server) and absolutely horrible ones from Stonemaul (who are allegedly the 'best' in the battlegroup, unless you ask Bloodscalp, Daggerspine, Boulderfist or... yeah.).


-- Z.

No, I think these multi-server queues brought out folks who had formerly given up.  I've noticed a lot of noobie mistakes like fighting on the roads in AB or not massing around the tunnel & road entrances in WSG.  Things that /had/ nearly completely stopped on my server.  This was from L60s from a PvP server (Blackhand) so I'm guessing that not all participants are nececcarily the 'most skilled' out there.

If I take my rogue in AV now, its a joke. I can easilly get on top of the KB chart. Its almost like playing against children. The problem being you get the unexperiance people on your team also.

I can only speak for myself but yes, I came back after the cross server thing. Shorter queues make the noob factor a bit more tolerable.

Yep. I feel pretty bad; my (PvE) guild has gotten a little pvp bug, so we queue up 10 of us in WSG. We're in full tier2+. It really is like playing basketball with kids. In WSG, giving our MT the flag is like a tall guy holding the ball just out of the kids reach. We even had him stand in center field to lure them out, becuase we got tired of breaking turtles. In AB, if the group doesn't list everyone from the same server (aka constructed group), we generally 5 cap them. It's really not fair.

Don't worry, you'll soon have your rep, your purples and then you can all stop acting like douches.

Good point.  I know quite a few folks who've started going AV just because it's easy access to some very nice purples.  Had a guy push through from just-into Honored to 1/4 into Revered over this weekend alone.  Get it in now before Blizz realizes what they've done and nerf Rep gains (again).

I am already exaulted with AV, but thats still the only BG I go to. I really think its the only one that feels like a RPG battle. If I want to play capture the flag ill play Unreal and if I want to play capture and hold Ill play BF2. I really wish they would have put like 3 or 4 maps for each battleground, honestly, how hard would that have been?

There's at least one other battleground already in game (It's in Azhara) that isn't turned on -- the full design might not be done, but it's obviously there. I suspect that part of the reason for cross-server battlegrounds was to open up new PvP battlegrounds. On a single server, there's just not enough PvPers to keep up all three as is. (If it wasn't AB weekend, there was like a five hour wait for an AB game. The Horde just didn't want to play, despite stomping the Alliance regularly).

Azshara Crater. It's supposed to be a three-part zone similar in size to Alterac Valley. Before she got promoted out of dealing with customers, Caydiem said it was on hold so as not to spread PvPers too thin, so you're right: if they've actually coded it or anything, they could in theory open it now. :)

They need to at least add more map versions for the same BGs.  You randomly get dropped into it.  3 or 4 maps for WSG, AB and AV would add spice without spreading the out players.

I always like the idea of a vertical WSG layout done in some manner.  The obvious AV one would be to switch sides and faction details.  A linear AB would interesting it would be a big fight for the middle station which seems to be how everyone wants to play the damn game anyway.

Somebody said the PvP queues were considerably shorter so I popped back in and gave it a try. They are.

That said, as people are pointing out, the intimacy is gone. I don't see names I know on either side of the battle. I can't say "oh, there's Blah, he's an annoing flagrunner" or "better avoid Ding, she always get's that charge/hamstring on me if I'm not watching" or "Foo is here, he'll ninja the Farm whenever we leave it alone". Nobody's happy to see me. Nobody's upset to see me. Also, the low queue times are drawing in a lot of level newbie 10-15's who wouldn't normally play because getting killed over and over AND waiting half an hour for the next game is no fun at all. Waiting 30 seconds? Woohoo!

Overall it actually feels a lot like Guildwars... only you know somebody's "build" almost as soon as you see them. Games come fast and furious with wildly varying skill levels and ZERO social consequence. Uh. Yay.

I may play it a little, but meh. If I want Guildwars I have Guildwars.

Just get a GG or form a group up and it's a lot more fun. It's a lot more pwn'y.

I know what you mean about not knowing the enemy know, but you will slowly its just a larger pool. Also on my server, the alliance had pretty much given up on battlegrounds except one or two really well geared groups that where absolutly no fun to play against in less I also was in a organized group. On my server the wait for AV went from 4 hours to about 5 seconds. And AB and WSG went from 45 minutes for 15 seconds. I am very happy with the changes so far. Although I did like the old AV better, now its much more like a huge game of WSG or PVE.

Personally, I'd prefer to see 'new' BGs using the existing ruleset, rather than alternate maps. For example, there could be a CTF map off of the Hinterlands somewhere, with Revantusk trolls vs Wildhammer dwarves, your vertical one in deep crypts/dungeons/vaults under Dalaran with Forsaken 'Apothecary Salvagers' against Dalaran 'Defense Force', or an AB-type capture-and-hold in Dustwallow Marsh between the ogres and whatsherface's lot.

Edit: Mind you, what I'd really like to see is a Counterstrike-inspired BG.

YOU ARE! You're stalking me! <sob>

Viklas!

Who could pass up the chance to be the Happiness Customer?

that's none of your bussniess...

Some observations with regard to battleground changes.

Prior to the merge, my team (alliance) almost always lost AB and WSG, after a 20-30 minute queue.  The horde teams were almost always guild groups, which were almost always pvp guilds.

Since the merge, my team wins AB and WSG about a third of the time.  When we face server groups, we lose.  When we face horde pugs, surprise! They're as bad as the alliance pugs, and it's about even on wins/losses.  I've also noticed that alliance pvpers seem to be improving slightly this week over last week.

I guess the theory that horde has more experience due to shorter queues was the correct one.

Now with regard to AV, my team loses more often.  My server had pretty good AV battles - even after the changes with npcs, we still saw Lok sometimes and got out the druids and Ivus.  We won more than half the time - maybe 75%.

Since the merge, we lose slightly more than half the time - maybe 55 or 60%.  Half the people in the bgs are convinced that the only way to win is to race to the general and beat him down first.  The other half want to play some defense, take towers, gys and kill Drek... the way my server used to do it consistently, and win more times than not.

When we race the horde to the general, we always lose.  When we play a balanced game with people using their heads - i.e., leaving 2 to cap gys and towers, etc. - we always win.  But what sometimes happens is we have this inbetweeny stuff that doesn't work at all.  Too many people playing defense, not enough smarts on the offense.  And we lose.

I see it as a conflict between those who want to farm rep as efficiently as possible vs. those who want to win (i.e., play for fun, i.e., battle people not mobs).  There's often bg chat to that effect, with people arguing over it.

I assume the horde doesn't argue like alliance does - at least not on my cluster.

It's insane to not try and take out GYs and Towers since the Towers directly make it harder on the Vandar/Drek pulls (more Warmasters) and the GYs allow faster trips back when you die before you have RH. No wonder the racers lose (and this is that Group 2's AVs normally take ~20mins).

Taking out a Captain isn't as helpful as the towers, but it does disable the other side's Damage buff (and nets 125 rep, which is about a third of killing the General himself).


Nah, they whine the same :P.

When people go straight for the Captain, I write the game off as a loss. The Captain is something you kill if your already well into a game and either winning so easily that you can spare the people to gank him, or if your loseing so horribly that you kill him to eek out a few more Rep points. It makes me want to eat my hat in frustration, because going straight for the captain defaults you to be 'behind' your enemy (unless they too go for the captain). Not having IB taken while the horde have SP contested and SH capped... ugh ><


As to the race itself, what I've seen happen more then once in my BattleCluster is the alliance just completely bypass IB and go straight to FW. Once FW is capped, a small team of ninja's will take the IB/TP towers while the rest push on the hut. Haven't lost many games when we have the hut and are clearing WarMasters before the horde even contests SP, let alone the aid station.

Ofcourse, we have lost plenty of games because for whatever retarded reason, the alliance is incapable of pulling a single WarMaster out at a time and we spend about ten times as long as we should clearning WarMasters thanks to the GY zerg method of clearing :(. Then you just get the random stupid shit from people... Like you will have a tank controlling a WarMaster, with healers keeping him up with ease, then some random player fears the previously controlled WarMaster, causeing all kinds of retarded shit to happen  :x

Fun Times!

Hmm, well Alliance side in Battlegroup 2's always Snowfall GY (drive-by) -> IB Garrison -> IB Tower -> IB GY -> ... -> Profit! Works like clockwork 70-80% of the time and we're out in 25mins... unless everyone decides to be a monkey humping a football and pull all the Warmasters or the Horde turtles and it takes 2 hours.

I actually enjoy the longer ones myself over the racing ones.  The really short ones mean you're fighting mobs, not players.  It's like a race to a pve raid, not pvp.

With regard to pulling WMs - I have thus far been unable to pull just one.  I can pull two, but I cannot pull one.  Who should be pulling (what class) and how do they pull just one?  I'm not even sure I've seen just one pulled.

Ditto in my BG.. which I forget the group number of... um Alleria server.

Try playing on defence, especially on Horde side.  Get a handful of guys in Drek's room and you can get a lot of kills and slow down the enemy if you play things right.  Maybe it's the steeper ramp leading up to the room (and thus making it easier to run out, shoot, and get out of line of site before the enemy can get a lot of attacks off) but the Horde seem to have a better chance of playing defence in their base.

Do you mean "defends a base"? It's not Warcraft, its World of Warcraft. They're players, not units. Just something to bear in mind.

ZOMG zerg!!!
ZOMG turtle!!!

I've been playing AVs contantly lately on both horde and alliance in the same battlegroup (mostly horde though). What I've noticed is that the map is horribly imbalanced when it comes to a PUG rush. SP is very easy to hold with a handful of alliance unless horde rush it properly, or sneak around and drop down, but they don't because they're stupid. IB and FW on the otherhand are rediculously easy to take when only a few horde defend. The bases too are similar. The horde base USED to be a total bitch, but with less NPCs and the NPCs being weak it's completely trivial to just run in there and take it all. The alliance base is so compact though that you get bowman fire and a mass of NPCs all through it and especially at the AS.

The only way for horde to win against a decent alliance group is to defend with 10-15 people. You need that mass to deny Ally taking the ezimode GYs, plus you need people held back to prevent ninjas of the back GYs and towers. Once you do that the geographical and NPC imbalances even out. I'd actually say the horde base is HARDER once there's enough defenders on either side. You can see this when ally are at the general, it's a major major bitch to dislodge so many from there, but as ally you can push horde out pretty easy if you try. So today I've always started by saying we need 10 defenders and keep harping on until we get it, then you need to beat into the offense to "avoid the low road, go around the alliance to SP". We've been winning a lot more on horde that way, whereas before we lost so many in a row I was ready to give up.

Also, the best games are "races" but with both sides defending. Horde should let alliance have SF so they have a GY behind the horde offence, otherwise everyone just get clogged up for hours at one point or another. Usually the game ends by one side deciding to stop trying so hard and letting it end if you don't "race".

The alliance does the same thing with SH usually, forces the horde to rez in the middle, far away from IB/FW. If we push them completely out of SP/SH, they'll end up back at the tunnel and just overrun IB or FW, usually boneing up the offense in the process.

A lot of the time you don't even need that many.  7 or 8 people can be enough to slow them down so long as the offense moves swiftly.  It also helps if the enemy isn't too smart and you can get them to draw out all the WM's.  Sneaking around to take SP is part of a good offense but there are some other issues as well.  The biggest problems I've had in AV is when nobody defends bunkers they've capped, and when the offense pulls all the marshals at once/can't get people to tank or heal when pulling.  I've been part of some great defenses that hold out for a really fucking long time only to have the offense completely break down, unable to even take the aid station.

Anyone have an answer for this?


Talking about playing alliance side - Is it just my imagination or does the horde have a bigger room/easier time with this?

As to pulling WMs, I think you have a hunter pull 2 of them, and as long as no one hits the second one, it will run back inside when the hunter feigns.

That, or just have the hunter kite it for a bit (like out to Frostwolf/Stormpike) and bring it back. Kiting it around the base is bad because of the random charges and cleaves though...