f13.net

Actually this is no news, but noticed there's no topic around here about TDU, and since I am a Motor City Online orphan, TDU could be the first Racing MMO after it and judging by the trailers it could hit where MCO missed (ie: free city roaming...).

Here's a link to a gamespy preview (http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/launchreview.asp?reviewid=686666) and to the Official Site (http://www.testdriveunlimited.com).

Really loved the trailer and the garage part of the house. 

(To clarify.. looks it will come out in september for xbox, followed shortly by the windows version..)

Errrr, there WILL be a thread for it when it's finally released ON SEPTEMBER 5TH. One of my roommates liked the 360 demo though.

Yeah, sometimes I got pretty excited too soon....

I heard that thinking about your tax bill or Ann Coulter (http://www.overspun.com/images/Coulter.Alien.jpg) helps in this regard ...

I'm looking forward to it.

But if they even try to fit in a bunch of RPG crap in a racing game, I'm going to have to kill someone. With a car.

Yeah, the girls don't like it when you get excited too soon... seek counseling.

We shouldn't discuss Warhammer Online until late 2007 either?

Looks pretty sandbox-y. You get a house with a garage when you start your career. As soon as you get more cars than your garage can handle you have to buy a larger house with more garage space....

For me, the proof will be in the actual driving engine. You can doll it up with customizeable dodads, a progression tree, free gnome road bumps at level 60 but if the thing doesn't feel like you're driving, I won't touch it. Not after 12 of driving a 1983 911 SC.

Agreed, of course.

Nope.

Carry on.

 :roll:

I think schild was sleeping when he said that.  I think Righ likes to tease schild.  I think Rasix is a prat. 

I should write a book about this place.

I thought Midnight Club 3 would make a great MMOG... until I drove one of the cars.

uhm, meant to say 12 years of driving a porsche. Brain not working well in the a.m. Anyways, I'm ticked about it, because she died on me and I had to downgrade to a BMW. They aren't the same thing.

Yea, I know, a BMW will work for a few months before you have to replace half the chassis or engine. Oh, you meant quality of driving - yea, a porsche is nice.

WHEN IT WORKS.

HO HO HO.

Actually, the 83 was more maintenance free than the toyota camry I had for 5 years. But even a 24 year old car starts to rust in bad places, so I had to trade it in. And since they just don't make porsches like they used to, I spent less and went for a newer bmw. I pray to god you're wrong about bmws tho.

I'll tell you this - BMW prices may be somewhat steep for what they offer, but the parts are a bargain... if you steal them. About the only thing more expensive than BMW parts is white rhino horn. Trade your Bimmer before it goes out of warranty and needs a replacement exhaust manifold or other part that's hugely inflated in price. The engines tend to last well enough.

If it weren't for parts prices, I'd fancy a low mileage mid 80s 635 CSi.

Well, I've been paying for Porsche parts here and there for 12 years. Can't imagine that BMW parts are worse. To be honest, I went with BMW simply because I trust german engineering more than most other brands, and I don't like the stiffness of VWs. For the prices I payed for Porsche parts, I spent double that on Toyota labor costs over the years. I've driven down the 'built in obsolescense' road before, and I don't want to ever go back to it.

Engels, it occurs to me that you might treat your cars like shit. German cars can take a beating, but total I think i've spent less than $3,000 on repairs over the course of 3 different cars (Toyota, Acura, Acura).

Could be I just had bad luck with that one toyota, who knows. But no, I do not treat my cars like crud. Quite the opposite, in fact, I baby them to the exasperation of my mechanic, who thinks I'm a neurotic car-hypochondriac.

Japanese, German... whatever. Quality is largely at parity these days and any manufacturer has the possibility of having one problem or another. It comes with the territory with all the moving parts. I am constantly amazed that the hangover of american made quality in the 70's and early 80's is still around. As a company car driver for ... uh, the larger of the 2 remaining US automakers, I have driven countless miles in many many cars. I have never had one strand me on the side of the road and have had no major defects. A rattle here, a poor body fit there, but nothing large by any means. And, given that I drive almost 60,000 miles a year, that's saying something.

On the whole, I'd agree, but there are exceptions. Since its the only car brand I really know in any depth, I'll put forward the 1989-1996 series of Porsche Carreras, the S series. They have an oil leak, a fairly serious one. You need to fix it, and it costs the fixer around 5 grand at the minimum. Sure, if you're buying new, chances are such major work is covered under warranty, but I nearly fell into that trap seeing as I wanted to replace my 82. As such, I felt I had to skip an entire generation of Porsches, and the new Porsches, 97 on up, do not drive like the older 911s, so there was no point in even buying a porsche for me anymore.

In anycase, back to the subject of this new MMORPG. I personally hope that it has 'real' physics of car driving. Auto Assault was fun and all, but the physics were cartoonish, which is fine for what it meant to be; dune buggies with guns.

I have reservations about any MMO that will try to emulate 'real' driving for a simple reason; even in RL, 'real driving' is an increasingly isolated event. Most newer cars 'isolate' the driver from the road, whereas the older cars are perhaps less comfortable without power steering and no computer-supported suspension systems, but by god, you felt the speed and friction. I test-drove a few 90s Porsches. They are ridiculously powerful. I mean, f16s on wheels, but you know what? The suspension was so refined, the gear shifting so feather light and the steering so smooth that there was no point whatsoever in owning one if what you wanted was to feel some grit on a sharp curve. For that, I'd have had to have purchased an ailing car that wasn't as 'technologically advanced' and right there I'm back to square one.

So now I own an 'old man' car, a 2003 BMW 325Ci, with a torque curve at 3600-4500 which I will rarely if ever use. C'est la vie. If they can make an MMO that brings back 'real man' driving, even with dorky role play and babes on ducatis, I'll try it out.

You can't get a current TVR or a Marcos in the US, at least not yet. However, you could get a Noble M12. I am confident that this car would give you the driving experience you seek.

Those cars sound wacky expensive. I'm a 30k maximum car buyer. At least at this stage in my life. I've got a thing for cars, but I'm not outright insane. If I could throw money around willy nilly, I'd snag one of the newer model Maseratis. Those have the sexiest curves I've seen out there. No earthly clue how they drive, but my vanity would be off the meter.

Porker 911S prices. Used performance cars are always a risky proposition, but if you're a competant buyer, there's any number of fun things out there - Lotus Esprits on the older end through rally econoboxes (Lancer Evo, Impreza WRX) at the new end. But the Bimmer will be fine and fun provided you don't need to fix it on your dime. As for a Maserati - if I were rich enough, I'd have one as a garden ornament. No way I'd rely on an Italian supercar to get me anywhere - I've driven way too many of their cars, and they have a way of making even 1970s British cars seem reliable.

There's a huge price difference between used 80s porsche 911 parts and Lotus/Lamborgini/Maserati type vehicles. There are many many porsche owners, not so many specialty sports car owners, and the parts are priced accordingly. I bought my original 1982 porsche with 90k miles on it for 16 grand. I had to put 2 k into it right off the bat, but it was smooth sailing after that. I went for 5 years without having to do anything but change the oil. I didn't find this car right away. I test drove over 10 different cars before landing that one.

I'm hoping that german reliability will prevail and even if BMW parts are expensive, I won't need too many of them on this young vehicle (only 25k miles on it).

I'm curious, what italian car brands did you drive? I know that Fiat and Alfa Romeo are known for trouble, but I imagined that when the sticker price is so high on those maserati (new ones cost around 120k), their quality would be exponentially better.

Fiat is a joke in Italia, plus I didn't know they made a nice looking car. Ever.

Just for reference, the Lotus Elise uses a Toyota engine (pretty sure it's this particular Lotus; one of them does anyway), so drivetrain parts shouldn't be too crazy.

I've run  911's for 11 years and never, ever had a problem. Although , I admittedly buy new ones.

In the heady days of the eighties when the stockmarket was oozing money, I had a masarati bi turbo. it wasnt fun. Extremely bad build quality, the electrical system reliability was so bad it was not feasable to use the car for a journey that may involve driving at night, as it was only a 50/50 chance of the lights working.

Ferraris of the same age are worse.

Either of those 2 marques cars from the last 5 years however are infinitly better, although also infinitly more expensive obviously.

Our second car andmy wifes runaround is an Audi A4 Avant , the best made cars you can buy , in my opinion, without resorting to the hand made exotics.

I've always had a secret wish for an Audi Quattro.  It would make me feel like a boy racer with class. ( no RS2000 or rice burners for me!)  It would be red and have oversized everythings. I'd have one of those HUGE stereos so I could play loud thumping dance music to annoy everyone I pass, too.

Ok... back in my closet!

Based on J.D. Power 2006 IQS (initial quality survey) and the 2005 Vehicle Dependability Study, Audi ranks 18th and 31st, respectively. Both are below the industry average.

Top 5 IQS Manufacturers (Link (http://consumercenter.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pdf/2006082.pdf)):
1. Porsche
2. Lexus
3. Hyundai
4. Toyota
5. Jaguar

Top 5 Vehicle Dependability Study Manufacturers (Link (http://consumercenter.jdpower.com/pdf/2005089.pdf)):
1. Lexus
2. Porsche
3. Lincoln
4. Buick
5. Cadillac


Just thought inquiring minds might wanna know.

I dont doubt you are right in terms of reliability etc, I was meaning the actual build qaulity rather than reliability though.

Audi , to me, are absolutly solid in terms of construction though, the way the doors shut, the interior is made, nothing at all drops off, even with all the help a 2 year old can muster.

The paint finish when delivered was also as good as the finish on a brand new 911, the panel gaps if anything were tighter.

Ive previously had BMW's (one of which had to have a new engine after 2000 miles, under warranty) , a brief excursion into mercedes , who's seats can induce back problems within 2 months, and none has stood up to wear and tear like the Audi.

Ive never had an Audi Quattro, although I did once own a Lancia Delta Integrale, like my other italian encounter, it seemed a good idea at the time, 2 weeks later and the dream had died.

Long term reliability is largely measured in the dependability study, and build quality is mostly the domain of the initial quality survey. The reason I say this is people are very vocal when the delivered product does not meet their expectations (rattles, squeaks, body fits, etc), but after the first year or so, those concerns are replaced by larger ticket maintenance and repairs (do I need to replace my transmission, is there rust developing, etc.).

I don't refute your opinions, only point out that sometimes they don't necessarily match with real data. Any small sample can provide a distorted view of the population.

I've driven Fiats, Alfas (Romeos and Suds), Lancias (including the barking mad Stratos), Maseratis, Ferraris and DeTomaso. I haven't driven a Lamborghini, but I did give the owner of one a lift home. As far as Lotus parts are concerned - they're not in the same ballpark as other exotics, as they're made up of cheap parts from several mainstream manufacturers, but you'd have to get to know the car better than one would a Porsche. I'd certainly prefer to repair a Porsche than a Lotus though. But I'd take a Lotus bill over a BMW one. :)

Anybody else surprised to see Lincoln and Buick in that dependability list? Cadillac, I can sort of see. They seem to be the last remnant of America's golden age.

As for Audi, I considered a TT. I even drove it, and like it, considering it a pretty close match to Porsche driving dynamics without actually being a Porsche. However, after some research, I found a lot of anecdotal testimonials about that particular Audi class that suggested it was not a well built car, and was prone to serious failures. Granted, it was totally anecdotal intardweb postings from unhappy owners, but there was such a perponderance of them that I got scared off.

On the other hand my 80 year old aunt still drives a Porsche 924 with an Audi engine (some deal made only in Germany by porsche and audi back in the late 80s for a limited run).

Not especially. If anything I'd say that post lemon laws, the US is making better cars than it ever has. Styling notwithstanding, the US is making some extremely good cars today, even making sports cars that can compete in world class sports car racing.

The only ones surprised about that little tidbit are the vast millions who subscribe to old information and consider it still a fair representation of the truth. Fact is, GM has made considerable strides in Quality and often scores quite high in the individual segments. GM also typically leads in the Harbour Report on manufacturing productivity and routinely wins awards from Ward's for their powertrains.

For those of us in the auto industry, this comes as no surprise. But, for the general population (who buy the cars and trucks), this is still one of the best kept secrets.

The survey is based on cars that are three years old. Living amongst many of the pre-dead owners of those three brands, I would hazard to guess the average three year old of those brands has maybe 10,000 miles on it and has been never seen hard driving, either "hot rodding" or stop and go commuting. Probably all pretty well maintained too. Old people, at least the ones who are buying new cars, have oodles of money and lots and lots of time to bring the car in for maintenance.

At least in the USA...

Median Age:
Lincoln - 62.8
Buick - 60.8
Cadillac - 53.4
BMW - 46.1
Audi - not listed

Article Here (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-02-16-seniorcars-usat_x.htm)

I saw on Top Gear once that one of the top-end Audi A8 diesels can make the round trip between London and Edinburgh on a single tank. That was pretty neat.

The reliability of German engineering is vastly overrated by the buying public.

Want a reliable car?
Buy a Toyota or a Honda.

It's sort of a shame that they show Top Gear in the US now.  Jeremy Clarkson should have stayed England's dirty little secret.

Those Brits make it sound like a long way, because Britain is pretty small. That's about the distance from Philadelphia to Boston and back. Still decent though.

Google says that about 900 miles, round trip.

Decent? That's downright rediculous. I reckon I would have to fuel up at least 3 times to complete the same trip.

It should be just under 800 miles by road, an A8 has 1.5 times the tank capacity as your 'stang, your car has atrocious fuel performance, and those guys turned off everything imaginable and drove at 55 MPH on a 70 MPH motorway with everybody flashing past them at 80 MPH and over. Decent. You can do better with cheaper Volkswagen diesels.

Edit: as these folks prove (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=79968).

I think Simond just shot me in my star spangled banner.

I think there are too many factors determining what makes a car 'reliable'. As stated earlier, I had a very smooth ride for 12 years with a 24 year old Porsche. Sure, there were occasional troubles, but nothing suggesting that the car was in any way unreliable. Can the same thing be said for all Porsches? Not at all. Just ask a mid-80 Porsche 928 owner, if there even is such an animal anymore.

My experience with an 1982 Toyota Camry was a Calvary of repairs. Then again, my Cousin drove a clunker of a toyota for decades (yes, plural) with a gerzillion miles on it, across the country in hostile weather and it kept on chugging along.

The difference is levels of expectation; on a Honda, you sort of expect the thing go go pear-shaped after 90k miles or 8 years. With a German car, expectations are high simply because one actually sees a lot of these older German cars on the road still.

In any case, I took in my BMW to the shop today for a 'check up', I will keep those interested appraised of the German supremacy situation in automotive matters as pertains to my wee corner of the universe.

PS: Numtini, get yer behind to Seattle already so I can give you a ride. Lesley is soooo unimpressed with vehicles.

Probably because German cars are owned by affluent buggers who can afford to take then to the shop for regular checkups or repairs, so a few more survive than do cheap econoboxes. After all, look at all the nice shaped cars that survived compared to the crappy looking ones. There's no way a Fiat X1/9 is more reliable than a Fiat 124, but you wouldn't want to keep the latter any longer than you had to. Hell, old Aston Martin's break down every 500 miles, yet they're nearly all still around. :)

There's truth in what you say, regarding the relative pocketbooks of the people involved. That said, there's a satisfying and reassuring >kerchunk< when I close my german cars' door. There's a wobbly >kershiver< when someone closes the door on a Toyota.

And the swishing of paper in the wind as you close the door of a Trabant. It as much to do with the value of the vehicle - it makes sense to spend some cash on a car that has value due to its initial price, its pedigree or because its uncommon. I wouldn't spend much money on keeping a 1970s Corolla alive:

(http://www.ez-term-auto-sales.com/images/2649.jpg)

Whereas:

(http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jong/Pictures/1975/Nurb-1975-5a.jpg)

Fileplanet has the beta thing up for subscribers, usually meaning that an open one is coming in about 10 days.
We are talking of the Windows version. And hey, it looks awesome (if you use a steering wheel, of course). Racers Rejoice!