f13.net

With new games coming out my wife is twisting my arm to get a new system.  Price is a big concern here, so I am looking at the very affordable AMD Athlon line (64 bit is too pricy and not much support yet).

The uber cheap pricepoint seems to be an AMD 2500 barton for $80 at newegg, and an A7N8X motherboard for about $70.

But then I noticed that the new Athlon chips are running at a faster front side bus and the new motherboards are also 400mhz fsb.  So I priced out an AMD 3200 400mhz chip with a faster ram and a motherboard that can accept the newish 400mhz chip.  This puts me at about $140 more at newegg for a faster processer and a jump from 333 to 400 mhz fsb.

My question to you guys...  Is it worth it on a tight budget?  The whole system for the cheap one is like $550 or so after everything.  Making the better one $690.  It is a pretty sizable jump when you think percentages.

I don't think the processor itself will make much of a difference.  The end of the athlon line had pretty fucked up numbering.  The 3200 didn't stack up to a 3200 mhz intel.  It was more like a 2800 mhz intel from my memory.  The first barton though was actually pretty accurately rated at 2500 from the tests I saw.  Will that extra 77 mhz on the bus speed make any noticable increase in performance for games using a shit ton of texture memory?


Also, something confused me.  At newegg they had two motherboards, one labeled A7N8X ultra 400  and one labeled A7N8X-X ultra 400.  Both of these were listed as 400 mhz fsb, but the -X one was listed as "new board capable of taking the new 400mhz athlon processor".

Since over $100 of the price change was the processor itself, would it make sense to get the board that can take theh 400 mhz processor, get 400 mhz ram and get the el-cheapo 2500 chip for now?  Could I run ram and the fsb at 400mhz with the chip running at 333 mhz?  Or would that force the processor into overclocking?  As you can tell I am a newb at messing with fsb speeds.  In the past I just made sure everything matched.

With AMD you don't have to match the FSB with the CPU, however you get best results running them at a sane ratio.

Have you looked at the shuttle systems? You're buying right at the end of a tech bump, so I'd go as cheap as you can right now.

I'm using a Barton and A78NX-Deluxe. No complaints here. There isn't anything I can't run well. IMO, you can skimp on the CPU nowadays and not notice much of a difference. Just don't buy a cheap video card and you're pretty much set for now. nForce sound is good, so that saves a few bucks too.

Yeah, I currently am running an AMD Barton 2500+ CPU and a A7N8X deluxe motherboard.  All at 333mhz FSB.  I am also very happy with it, the only downside of the system is the video card which I intentially went skimpy on at the time to see what happened with the next generation of cards.  I wanted to wait till the 9800/5900 generation became affordable (which they are now) before upgrading it.

Now it turns out we need to replace one of the other systems and it will be replaced with my current system as a handmedown.

Being happy with my current system I was essentially going to rebuild it with a 9800/5900 generation video card.  That way my wife can use my current system and then get a new video card herself when her games fail to run well on it.  I am not really happy with my onboard sound though.  Many many games give me trouble on it.  Like PoP, Farcry, Splinter Cell, thief 3.  some lose sounds after a random period of time playing, others get scratchy sounding and then get worse until the soundcard only puts out pure static.  A full system reboot is the only thing I found to fix this.  And it happens every 30 mins on most high end games.  But this is an annoyance, not a gamestopper.  So a separate soundcard is in the category of a luxury not a requirement.  Something I can hope for maybe xmass.

It was during my shopping that I noticed that I could upgrade to 400 mhz FSB on the MB and ram for really cheap.

Would I get a performance boost out of running the MB and ram with 400 mhz fsb while using a barton 2500 that runs at 333 mhz fsb?  If those can even go together, would the ram just be waiting on the CPU anyway?  Would I have to get the new 400 mhz athlon 3200 to make practical use of a 400 mhz fsb setup?

I don't think you'll get your moneys worth out of going up to the 400 FSB chip.

Texture bandwidth is principally affected by AGP bandwidth, and THAT isn't affected by FSB speed unless you overclock.

Thank you for the opinion.  I like the idea of being able to buy that cheap $80 2500 chip.

http://www.anandtech.com/guides/showdoc.html?i=2077

Entry level system.

I'm using a barton 3000+ on an asus a7n8x deluxe revision 2 motherboard, which allows dual channel pc3200 (ddr400). Only the first version didn't support ddr400 afaik. Great motherboard, especially the Dolby Digital encoder hardware, one of the very very few ways to get hardware DD5.1 encoding in a pc right now.

I think the -X revision added gigabit ethernet, I built a system around that in February or so for a friend.

The main reason to go to the 400mhz fsb is for running ram in dual channel mode. In theory this can give a good performance boost but I have never run two systems side by side to see how much of a boost it really is.

Kaid

Yeah, I think my current system is running dual channel DDR333 ram.  If that is an oxymoron then I obviously have something wrong, but that is what I thought.  It has been awhile since I assembled it.

My current motherboard is actually the A7N8X 2.0 deluxe so it can probably take the DDR400.  Not even sure what is in there.  I think I bought the 333 at the time because all I could find for sure off the asus site (at the time) was to check the actual stamp on the mb to see if it supported the 400 mhz stuff or not.

I think I will grab the board that supports the better cpu but stick with the 2500 for now to save $100.  I can upgrade later if there is ever a time when the processor becomes cheap enough to warrant the potential increase in performance.  By the time that happens it will most likely be time to do another jump to whatever the current tech is.  Keeping 3 systems somewhat up the tech curve is a fucking pain in the ass BTW.

I don't think I will ever buy another stock system unless I know exactly what is going in it though.  I like picking my brands too much.  My last dell system is what is forcing me to upgrade now when I don't want to.  Fucking thing can't go past 528 megs for ram.  That is what it shipped with.  I can't believe buying it under that limitation.  Plus video cards generally annoy me when they come a part of a package deal.  I much rather get something that I can overclock under warranty.

Morphiend, thanks for the link.  I would have missed an important point if I hadn't read that.  The A7N8X-X does NOT have dual channel memory support.  That is a feature I am definately looking at keeping.

I am so damn confused on which MBs that ASUS make can accept the new 400 mhz athlon chips though.  Their site does not clear it up too much, but honestly I don't even care that much anymore.  I am not going to get the more expensive processor.  Just something that can do ddr400 in dual channel mode.

Wow that's harsh ;)



While it is true that the 64-bit version of Windows is still in beta, the Athlon64/FX/Opteron chips run flawlessly in 32-bit mode (well if you ignore the recently discovered Opteron bug) and give better performance than comparably priced Intel chips. The Socket A platform is basically at the end of its life cycle now while the 64-bit chips are just ramping up. Future faster versions of the Athlon XP chip (being reborn as the "Sempron") will be Socket 754/939 only so you won't be able to upgrade beyond what's available now.



You can search around for benchmarks comparing the two processors to help you decide if the added speed is worth the extra money. Here's one comparison to get you started (3200 vs 2700, not quite what you are specing):

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/amd_athlon_xp_3200/



The "nForce2 400" is a single channel chipset. The "nForce2 400 Ultra" is the dual channel version. The A7N8X-X is an nForce2 400 board while the A7N8X is an nForce 2 400 Ultra (or Ultra 400 as ASUS calls it) board. That's why the "-X" board is cheaper (if NewEgg is saying that's an Ultra board that's a typo, check the ASUS site for exact specs).




One possible solution to your problem, if you are willing to do some learning and experimenting, is to get an Athlon XP Mobile chip such as this one here:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-401&depa=0

The Mobile versions are basically "hand picked" out of a batch of Athlon XPs to run stable at lower voltages than normal Athlons which means they can run faster than their rated speeds at the same voltage as the normal ones. They also have unlocked multipliers (nominally so that motherboards can slow them down a la Intel's "SpeedStep" technology) which make them perfect overclocking chips (no need to hack your chip or motherboard to unlock it). If you read the reviews you can see what kind of speeds people have been able to get with that chip by overclocking them but basically 3200+ speeds (2.2 GHz) should be doable on a good motherboard.

So if you are willing to learn how to overclock you can spend $88 for a 2500+ Mobile and you should be able to get it to perform like a $179 3200+. Not a bad deal. One thing you have to be careful about, though, is that the motherboard you get properly supports a Mobile processor and gives you a good range of voltages and multipliers to play with. Some don't recogonize the chip and you end up running at some odd speed like 800 MHz.

I would rather not overclock my cpu if I can avoid it.  The system I currently have priced out has the ASUS A7n8x ultra 400 motherboard (for the dual channel ddr), two identical corsair 528 meg DDR400 ram chips, and an AMD Barton 2500+ processor that says it runs at 333 front side bus speed.

Is it possible to run the memory in dual channel mode at 200 mhz with that CPU without overclocking the CPU?  Or would setting the memory at that speed automatically overclock the CPU?

Any investigations I get are starting over my head with talk about memory latencies and CAS 2.0 vs CAS 2.5 which I know nothing about.

Woops, that system I built was based on the A7N8X-E, not X.

I think I am seeing the light right now.  Just found this online:



So it looks like I can take my chances and try and overclock the 2500 to a fsb of 400 effectively running it at 3200.  OR I run the cpu at normal speed and the ram runs under speed and NOT in dual channel mode.

I find this predicament pretty annoying.  Especially since there are motherboards out there that claim to be dual channel DDR400 but don't even support the 400 mhz processor.  That seems to be an oxymoron unless you overclock the cpu or run the memory and cpu at different speeds which will DECREASE performance according to the guy above (even if it is possible although I don't know how to do it).

I swear the more I look into this the more annoyed I get.  I don't know who to believe anymore.

Yes you can. The nForce2 chipset will allow you to set your memory bus speed faster or slower than your CPU clock frequency through the BIOS. So you can set your CPU frequency to 166 MHz (333 MHz FSB) and your memory bus to 200 MHz as an example, though like Furiously said things usually run better when the CPU and memory bus clocks are synced.




It easy to understand if you've played shooters over a dial-up connection. CAS (and the other memory timing acronyms) represent latency numbers so the lower the better (2 is the lowest for CAS) with 2-2-2-5 being the lowest latency memory you can buy right now. Things like DDR266, DDR400, PC2700, PC3200 are bandwidth numbers (DDRxxx being bus speed, PCxxxx being bandwidth in megabytes per second). So if you are willing to pay the extra money "matched" (i.e. both DIMMs have been tested together in a dual channel setup) DDR400/PC3200 memory at 2-2-2-5 timings would be the ultimate for what you are trying to build.

Dual channel support is independent of bus speed. A board either supports dual channel or it doesn't. If it does it can run at all speeds the motherboard supports.

AHA.   So I could run at 333 fsb and still dual channel my memory?

I am still thinking of going for the DDR400 ram so that I can move my cpu up to 400 mhz if I feel like overclocking later toward the end of the computer's lifetime, or a future date where the AMD 3200 processors may be dirt cheap.

Plus DDR400 ram should have no problem going into dual channel mode at 333 fsb speed.

This clears things up abit.  Thank you.

Um... how do I know if my memory is in dual channel mode or not?

Crosscheck the models from wherever you are buying the memory at the manufacturers website. I know Crucial, PNY, and all the other legitamate memory groups list all the technical specifications and will respond through email if you ask.

Yes.

Its a reasonable enough plan, even if you decide never to try to overclock..  You may be able to re-use the RAM down the line in a later system also.

No trouble at all.

From what I understand (I've never owned a dual-channel board) If the motherboard and RAM both support dual-channel, it'll run in that mode.  There may be a setting or indication in the BIOS that it is working.

I checked in my bios and I could not see any information about dual channel ram mode. In theory if you have matching sticks of ram that are capable and a mother board that can handle it the ram should automatically work in dual channel mode.

Some bios probably do tell you for sure mine unfortunatly did not.

kaid

I'd still go cheap on the ram and not worry about the small improvement. DDR2 is going to make any ram you buy now completely worthless in 2 years.

Assuming your memory can run at that speed (at least DDR333/PC2700) and are reasonably similar then yes. Dual channel memory is a little strange in that small differences between a pair can cause them not to run properly in dual channel configuration. That's why the high-end memory board makers all sell "matched" pairs specifically for dual channel operation.




That's a good plan.




That's correct. Like the article you quoted above stated, memory is "backwards compatible" and can run at slower than rated speeds. They may even be able to run at faster (lower latency) timings at the slower speeds.




You need to read your motherboard manual carefully. It'll tell you which memory slots you need to use to run in dual channel configuration. If you really want to be sure. Run a memory bandwidth benchmark with just one stick installed and then with both installed in their proper slots.

Heh, I didn't see the word 'in' when I read that. Sigh. It's too early.

Well, one thing I did learn through all this is that getting cheap ram is running a risk of it NOT supporting dual channel at the rated speed.  A certain percentage of the standard or value chips from most manufacturers will not go into dual channel mode.  Buying DDR400 and underclocking it should guaruntee that it will go into dual channel mode with no troubles.

My current system supposedly also had dual channel ddr.  The manual had specific instructions on which slots to put the ram into in order to get it into dual channel mode.  As kaid stated, that board also had no indication that it was actually working in dual channel mode.  It was another A7N8X, but I think that one was dual channel 333.  I wasn't confused with that system since everything I was buying was 333.

I am curious about this dual channel thing due to not only my new system but my old system.  The ram access speeds certainly always seemed good on it.   Runs planetside like a dream even with an underpowered video card.  The motherboard manual had some confusion statements in it regarding dual channel.  If I recall correctly they stated you had to put them in the correct slots for it to work, and then said you should put them in slots 1and2, or 2and3, or 1and3.  Since there were only 3 slots they covered every possibility of two chips.  My only thought was that maybe there was a version of the MB with more slots and they wanted to keep the same language in both.

Thanks to everyone for the help.

It may have said something more like 1 & 3, 2 & 3, or 1 & 2 & 3. That's typically how the 3 slot dual channel boards work -- one slot (3 in the above example) is specifically setup to be the second channel.

Never, ever buy cheap ram. (never buy /any/ cheap parts imo, but especially ram)

My boot screen tells me I'm running my memory in dual channel mode.

Yeah, I have learned the 'don't skimp on ram' rule.  I used to be a huge offender, but the good stuff is worth it in performance and reliability.

My current system has kingston hyper X ram.  DDR333.

When pricing a gig of that same kingston hyperx at DDR400 it was abit too rich for my blood (280 at newegg).  So I went with some midline corsair DDR400 ram instead and will be underclocking it so it should be more than enough.

From what I am hearing ram underwent a pretty big price jump in recent months.  Too bad for me.  That extra money could have gone to a DVD burner or an offboard soundcard.  Ah well.  I can suffer a little longer with onboard sound.

I wonder if my old SBLIVE 5.1 card would be better than the realtek onboard 6 channel sound.  I swore I would never go back to SBLive.  But onboard gets crackly in many games for me and cuts out in others after time.  It only seems to be on games that tax my system.  Maybe the better video card will take some strain off it.  Maybe it will just add more.  We'll see.  I can always buy a $40-50 audigy 1 card in the future.

My SB Live Value card has been kicking ass for like 4 years now. I have onboard sound that is probably better, but why mess with it?

I personally noticed a good boost in planetside when I went to dual channel pc3200 ram on my p4 system. Then I dropped a 9800 pro in the sucker and look out! No more FPS issues here.

Dolby Digital 5.1 hardware encoding!

Oh, you use a PeeFour. NM. ;)

I've got a few questions for you guys and I didn't want to start a whole new thread on the topic so I figured I would dig up an old one.


Anyways, I have decided it is time to upgrade my rig.  My current setup is an Athlon XP 1600+, 512MB PC2100 and a GeForce 4 Ti 4600.

Here's the parts that I'm planning on buying.  I've read reviews on all of the parts and they all seem to be winners, but was just curious if any of you had any experience with them.

Planned rig is:

Athlon 64 3200+
MSI K8N-Neo Platinum Mobo
1GB of Corsair Value Select DDR400 RAM
eVGA GeForce 6800GT

I figure those specs should keep me running all the current titles with ease and any of the ones coming out in the new future.  Should probably last a couple of years... hopefully.

The biggest concern I have is my current power supply and case.  The case is an Enermax full tower with only four fans, not sure what the size of the fans are to be honest.  Two in the back blowing the air out and two in the front pulling it in.  The power supply is only 320w.  It seems to me that 320w isn't going to be enough to power all the new planned parts, and I'm not sure if the four fans is enough to adequately cool it either.  Do any of you know what the minimum wattage should be when I purchase a new power supply?  If possible, a recommendation on a good but fairly inexpensive power supply would be appreciated.

On my current system, when I am playing games that use the 3D card, I will get random hard reboots.  For example I will be playing a game, and go to click on something and I will hear a sort of static noise from my speakers and the computer reboots.  Since this occurs only when I'm playing a game, I thought it was something with the video card, but I switched out the 4600 and tried a 4400 in the same machine and I still get random reboots.  Sometimes a few times a day, sometimes not for a few days at a time.  Could it be the video cards overheating or a power supply issue?  The reason I bring this up is that I'm wondering if it's a power supply issue or a cooling issue.  If it's just a cooling issue, then I will probably need to buy a new case w/ a higher wattage power supply to run the new machine, if it's just power issues, then I imagine I can get by keeping the old case and installing a new power supply.

As I am already at my budget limit, I would prefer to not have to buy a new case unless I absolutely need one of the newer cases that have room for six or seven fans.  Do you think the four that I currently have is sufficient for cooling?  

Thanks for any tips you all could give me.  I would like to make a wise purchase and have everything run smoothly together.

Liquidator,

What is your current MB and Sound Card?  I remember some hard reboots resulting from a MB Bios/Live! Sound Card issue that might be your problem.  I could also be speaking out my ass, but I am pretty sure I am not.

If your case is pushing air into the case and out the otherside, then your heat issues should be fine unless your stacking hard drives on top of each other with no space seperator.

Actually, come to think of it, there is another strange error that happens occasionally as well.  Sometimes I will be playing a game and all of a sudden the game will freeze and I will get all sorts of crazy evil garbled sounding static coming from my speakers.  It sounds like it does if you put a data CD in an audio CD player and are able to hear the data.  Hmm..

Anyway, my mobo is a Soyo SY-K7V Dragon+.  I've got a SB Audigy in there.

Well I've just got an AMD 64 3500 and K8N and they're working pretty danged well. Like Fargull said the heat shouldn't be an issue but I'd definitely look into getting a 400w PSU.

I agree that it sounds like bad power.  Video cards tend to draw alot more power when running 3d apps, as does your CPU and other parts.  When that load becomes more than your PS can bear, it tends to trip something inside, and everything stops.

Also, you might try poking around for places that mention brand names for power supplies, and see what you can find out about them.  Some seem to be more efficient that others, so you get more useful power from the same input wattage... i.e. two PSs from different companies, both 400 watt, may have vastly different handleable loads.

--
Alkiera

Doing some support checks, the Via issue is about two/three years old, so I doubt that is your problem.  Like everyone said, check the PS.  Although, a lot of posts mentioned IRQ issues causing noise disturbances with the Audiology.