f13.net

So I haven't really been actively following comics that much until just recently, like the last couple weeks.

I caught up on some of the Crisis stuff, and it was good but I wasn't all that impressed.

I started picking up this Civil War stuff on the recommendation of a friend (who normally hates Marvel, so for him to recommend it meant something) and I have to admit, it's pretty damn good so far.

I've got the Amazing Spider-Man tie in, Civil War 1, and Frontline 1.

I've heard the Wolverine tie in is pretty good, though that was sold out when I went.  I'll keep an eye out for it.

Anyone else following this?  Other recommendations of specific issues I should grab?  I mean, I have the checklist, but I'm not going to get She Hulk unless I hear from 3 different people that it's the comic to end all comics.

I think it's an ok story, but as usual it doesn't seem like Marvel has internally worked out all the details amongst it's writers.  Spidey's tie-in has him trying to decide whether or not to reveal his identity to the public, while Frontline makes it clear that they only have to reveal their identities to the government.  New Avengers: Illuminati shows Iron Man in support of the Registration Act from the start, while I hear his tie-in had him against it at first.  The sub-plot with the Hulk in Illuminati (which leads into Planet Hulk) shows that a lot of people die in the Hulk's rampages, while a few weeks prior in She-Hulk it's stated that isn't the case.  The individual writing on some of the books is good, but Marvel's crossovers always seem to collapse from inconsistancy.

I'll probably read the main book, and I already read Thunderbolts and She-Hulk so I guess I'll see how those tie-in's are done.  I'll probably be staying away from everything else though.

Yeah, Iron Man was against it until the...what  is it, Stamford?, incident.

EDIT

In an unrelated note, I stumbled on this today:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/godsoe/DeadPool-AWESOME.jpg

That is highly amusing.

Exactly but in Illuminati he's for it and that takes place before the Stamford incident.  I'm not a continuity nut or anything.  I don't mind if a book does a story that contradicts a 20 old back-up story or something.  It pisses me off when they can't even get major plot points in the same crossover consistant though, especially when we're only a couple months into it (taking Illuminati as the start).  Of course I also don't think Marvel has it in them to tell a real political story.  I have a feeling it's going to rapidly degenerate into heroes who have been best friends for years now mindlessly beating on each other while delivering speeches about Freedom vs. Responsibility.

How many Marvel heroes really have much of a need for a secret identity?  Off the top of my head Spider-man and Daredevil are the only ones I think who would have problems exposing their identities, and both of them have had a good chunk of supporting cast members killed off without them revealing their identities to the public.

Well, since this is a repackaged Mutant Registration Act, I'd imagine just about any mutant proponent would be against it as well.

You're right about the Iron Man thing, I wasn't arguing that- just saying that you're right, they portrayed him as against it until the Stamford thing, but I read about the Illuminati speech and it's pretty clear he was for it before.

Well, since this is a repackaged Mutant Registration Act, I'd imagine just about any mutant proponent would be against it as well.

I always figured the Mutants were against the MRA because it would make it that much easier for the Government to track them down and kill them should the ever be so inclined.  Sentinels were scarier than S.H.I.E.L.D.'s anti-superhuman task force which can't even take down Captain America and would be inneffective against about 80% of the heroes in the MU.  A non-Hulked Bruce Banner could probably take those guys out.

Right... so they have to register with the government, and the government could still use Sentinels, couldn't they?

They had Sentinels piloted by humans parked outside the X-mansion recently for the mutants' own "protection".  Very few of the remaining mutants after all that House of M stuff have secret identities.  The vast majority of mutant who still have powers seem to be affiliated with the X-men, or at the very least are camping out on their lawn, not particularly hiding from the government.  For them to be anti-registration at this point would be mostly a symbolic thing.  Cyclops doesn't have a lot to lose by telling people his name is Scott Summers and he lives at the mansion.  Getting goverment training and being legally approved heroes could only help mutants at this point, or get the public pissed at the government for letting mutants be heroes.  Beyond that I just picture the X-men sitting around the mansion thinking "fuck it, now you know how we felt all those years."

Exactly.  Cyclops and Wolverine might not have a lot to lose.  Some kid who loves his parents, can force people to fall asleep and one time stopped a mugging might have a lot to lose.  Generally, the X-Men try to consider the latter in their positions.  It's easier for them, because they've devoted their entire lives to being mutants.

It's at least probable enough to prop up a comic book plot. 

(The '198' number is a rough estimate, at best, and a symbolic representation at worst.  They've got no reason to believe that there aren't more mutants keeping a low profile, or that there won't be more mutants in the future.  But, imo, the whole Scarlet Witch thing was dumb anyways.  Civil War is a better plot without House of M having happened.)

Both the books and interviews with people at Marvel have contradicted each other so many times and don't have any idea now what the rough estimate is of how many mutants still exist, if new mutants can still be born, and other such basic information.  Again it's a matter of Marvel not getting things consistant before they moved ahead with the story.  It's a shame when the only good thing to come out of House of M (other than X-Factor I guess which picks up some of the threads from HoM) was a good Quicksilver mini, which they fucked up in the last issue by building up a war between the Inhumans and the U.S.

They should have Scarlet Witch redo reality again and make the House of M arc not ever happen.  I'm all about Civil War, but it's hard to justify in a world where new superhumans are probably not being born every few minutes.

Yes, the X-Men have been turned into ineffectual punks since House of M. The entire run of the series has been one long "We are afraid of the government sending Sentinels to our front yard" and "we resist efforts to protect us for our own good." House of M comes along and all of a sudden Cyclops is like "THEY'RE HERE FOR OUR OWN GOOD!"

It's not only like none of the writers have read the last 15-20 years of backstory, it's like they've not even read last week's issue.

EDIT: And the Son of M Quicksilver mini? It was never good. It completely contradicted everything ever presented about the Quicksilver character. But then, so did House of M. The whole terrigen mists thing? Sloppy at best, idiotic at worst.

I guess I'd best leave some spoiler space for issue 2 here:

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Before getting to the big spoilers, a few nitpicks.  First and foremost I can buy the idea of opposition to the Registration Act.  What I don't buy is kicking a guard out of a moving vehicle and in front of several cop cars.  For that matter I don't exactly buy S.H.I.E.L.D. blowing up the top of a skyscraper just to capture Patriot of the New Avengers.  Captain America's choice to go against the act seems like an odd one for those who have read the first few issues of New Avengers, where Bendis decided that Cap has a "Champion License" that allows him to form a legally sanctioned team with members of his choosing pretty much whenever he feels like it.  For all intents and purposes he was practically already operating under the rules of the SRA.

I want to like this story but a lot of the basics just seem to hinge on everyone acting out of character.  If it wasn't set in the MU and used different characters I'd say this is a good premise for a story, as it takes an interesting look at a lot of conventions of the genre.  As it stands though, I don't think the book has done enough to justify the changes in character nor has it set up a situation that was a convincing enough reason for the SRA.  Heroes and villains have been battling it out in the streets in the MU for years. (Thousands upon thousands of stories).  There's been much worse fall-out from a lot of those battles than a blown up school.

Anyway the "big event" of this book is the Spider-man unmasking himself to the public, which really most people saw coming a mile away due to how they were building the story up.  Can't say I care too much at this point as he's already so far away from the basic concept of the character that it doesn't even really matter.

I also picked up Thunderbolts #103 as part of my regular reading, and this issue happened to be a Civil War tie-in.  Fabian just kinda works it into the ongoing plot, as the events more or less fit in with Zemo's current plans (won't get into all that as it's a long explanation).  From what I've read from when Fabian used to post more often on web sites and usenet, his motivation for joining in crossovers tends to be to get whatever boost in readership he can.  That's not to say that he just phones in the scripts, but that his stuff typically isn't essential to the overall story.  Especially since the rest of the writers tend to ignore everything that happens in Thunderbolts thereby marginalising what should be major developments in the MU.  Fab never seems to be mentioned by Quesada in interviews, doesn't seem to part of the planning for the future MU events, and I guess just basically isn't part of the Marvel "in-crowd".  It's a shame because Fab is pretty much the closest thing Marvel has these days to Busiek's "old-school" superhero style.

I'm liking his Cable & Deadpool book.

My friend and I were talking about Civil War 2 yesterday, and he was sharing with me some of the hype that they'd done about it.  Apparently, the last page was supposed to blow my mind.

My mind remains largely unblown.

Important enough to the story they're telling, sure, and a fairly major thing in that respect, but this is no earth shatterer.  This isn't "Superman Dies!"

But I'll tell you what I thought it could've been and it wasn't:

My friend and I thought they just might maybe kill off Mary Jane.  Nope.  Oh well.  THAT would've been worth hyping.

Not only is it in direct opposition to the entire character and his history, it's mindblowingly bad. It's taken the character from what he was, an independent, devil-may-care character who always has problems that feel real, to a "team player" type of character who will just cowtow to prevailing opinion. Spider-Man has BEEN the menace to society/outcast most of his Spidey career, even with a wife. Why change that now? Because he got a taste of the good life working for Stark and living in the mansion? Bleh. It turned a strong character (even though I didn't like him, I admired his inner strength) to a complete puss, all because his book sells well. Of course, it doesn't compare to the neutering of Wolverine's character that has been done, but I disliked that character even more so who cares?


I haven't read Thunderbolts lately, but I never thought of Fab as that good a writer.

He's not particularly flashy or anything, but aside from his 90's X-men stuff that the editors had too much of a hand in, and aside from anytime he has to script a Liefeld plot, his writing is pretty solid.  His biggest drawback is trying to cram too many characters and sub-plots into a book.  Anyone just picking up an issue of Thunderbolts is going to be pretty much lost, which is why I don't go around recommending the book to anyone on here.

Cable and Deadpool's been pretty solid.  I enjoy Fabian's humor style much more than the "I'm so clever" Bendis humor.

(Bendis Secret To Funny: Make characters say, "Dude." a lot.
Example-
Iron Man: "Hurry, the culprit is escaping!"
Capt. America: "Dude.  Culprit?"
SUCCESS!)

I've read this now.  It's shit.

The Spiderman angle in particular is really shit.

I don't understand why they're doing this.  At all.

To get the mainstream newspapers writing about comics again, silly. I mean, DC has a muffdiving Batwoman in the news, WHAT CAN WE DO TO TOP THAT?

They're doing it because:

a)  Crossovers bring in money and they have to compete with DC.  Even with Civil War #1 selling an estimated 200k+ issues, DC still took the lead for the month of May in both $ share and unit share.

b)  It's comics and anything that happens in this story that they don't like can just get undone later.  Stupid shock value shit with iconic characters like this is pointless because we all know that regardless of how long it might take eventually things will return to the status quo.

After having read #2, I can safely say this series sucks it. Hard.

Why is Daredevil running around in #2? And if this IS Murdock, thanks for spoiling who knows how many months of comics in the future. If it isn't Murdock, is this supposed to be the Daredevil that's running around in Hell's Kitchen while Murdock stews in jail? And if so, why would Captain America trust him?

It feels much too much like an Age of Apocalypse story, mixed with the Matrix.

According to Bendis on his board it's not Daredevil and as for why Captain America trusts him, he obviously knows who it is. Speculation is that it's Hawkeye ( maybe Bendis wants to kill him again )

Le sigh.

Ed Brubaker reveled in an interview that the other Daredevil, the one that's not in jail is the one in Civil War and will play a major part in Civil War. If it's Hawkeye, that will really be a sack of suck.

Let's hope it's Donald Blake instead then :p

I've given this some more thought, and after talking it over with a friend, we're thinking this is intentional.

Stark is playing everyone to push this.  He put up a show of being against it to get Parker on his side.  Note that he paid off the Russian guy in that Spider-Man issue.  He's definitely up to shady business.

My friend even suggested that Stark may be the guy in the BMW in the most recent Wolverine, providing aid to Nitro.  Don't think I buy that one, but I really don't think Stark being against the act was a mistake.  I think it was an act.

Iron Man's series right now is currently showing Nick Fury as still being the head of SHIELD despite the fact that in the rest of the MU he's been in hiding since the end of Secret War.  Marvel's cross-title continuity is complete shit so until their editors start proving otherwise, I'll assume that anything that doesn't quite fit is a fuck up rather than a plot thread.

Yeah, I noticed that in Iron Man and was like WTF? When does this take place? Is this even the same goddamn universe? There is no excuse, not one good goddamn excuse for something that blatantly stupid to be in place without even so much as an editorial explanation. Are we to assume that the reason Iron Man has been the only Avenger with any ability to do more than stand around quipping in New Avengers is because of his nano-armor abilities which have apparently driven him mad in his own book?

There's loose continuity and then there's just out and out fiefdoms running their own little version of the MU. I can't really think of any Marvel book that I'm reading right now which doesn't in some way infuriate me, and that includes Astonishing X-Men which has descended into I don't know what lately.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=4154.0

Just sayin'

Just asked a friend about the Nick Fury thing, apparently Iron Man is years behind in continuity because of a screwup with the creative team, which is not altogether very uncommon in comics.  <points at Kevin Smith's Daredevil as-yet-to-be-released>

So Iron Man is set before Nick Fury's Secret War and subsequent abdication of his SHIELD command position.

But they really ought to put something in the comic to indicate that much.

Except that that's not really possible given Sentry showing up on the last page, so this issue has to take place at some point after the Sentry arc in NA.  Brevoort has said that it's pretty much just a fuckup since at the time this story was actually written they didn't know what the status of Nick Fury would be.  For readers needing an in-continuity explanation though, he said that the most people outside SHIELD haven't been made aware that Hill is now in charge and the Nick Fury in Iron Man is an LMD (Life Model Decoy or whatever the heck it stands for).

Hm, I see.

Ok, yeah that one. But that's not really a Marvel book.

Oh dear fucking God. I'm no fan of Jim Shooter, but he'd have fired an editor for that. Then had sex with the fired editor's skull.

No, he apparently just picked up Thor's hammer in Fantastic Four.

I read the first couple issues of the whole Thor's Hammer thing in FF.  Didn't much care for it, but then I pretty much haven't liked any of JMS's work after Rising Stars and Midnight Nation (with the exception of the first few issues of Supreme Power until the story dragged on and never went anywhere).

Unashamedly torrented about 20 issues of this (beginning with the Spider-Man tie-in).

Decided to get House of M as well...Which is about 50 something issues that I most likely won't read.

[edit] Got around to the "Planet Hulk" series. Not sure what it has to do with Civil War yet, but it rocks! I think I'll pay for these at least.

Geez, that She Hulk courtroom stuff was bad. Marvel could have used Harvey Birdman and I would have taken it more seriously.

Hmmmm

I haven't read comics much lately.

Well, I did order the whole Age of Apocalypse graphic novel set.  They fucked up the order of things.

There, I stayed on the general theme.

Postcount ++

I AM INVINCIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

Finished up what little of Civil War I had. I won't be reading any further. It's crap.

[edit]

And again, I say: Planet Hulk rocks.

Was it a Civil War tie-in issue of She-Hulk?  Don't know if Dan Slott is writing the tie-in issues (I assume he is), but his She-Hulk series is usually played for laughs (Slott mind you got his start at Marvel doing their Ren & Stimpy book which I've still got several issues of around here somewhere).  It's probably not the best series to tie into what's supposed to be a serious event, but with his Thing series recently canceled I can see Slott doing this as an attempt to bring in some more readers to She-Hulk which hasn't had the greatest sales numbers either.  If he'd just do some more GLA minis I'd be happy.

Nicieza usually writes for laughs, too, but Cable & Deadpool is about to have its Civil War crossover with him at the head.

<shrug>

That's a pretty decent book, it's a shame its sales aren't higher.  Where else can you find a merc who scrawls "THIS END TOWARDS OTHER GUY" on the barrel of his gun?

Nicieza has always been pretty honest about participating in crossovers to get the numbers up on his books.  He does the same thing with Thunderbolts.  Cable & Deadpool has a serious element to it at least that makes it possible to work as a serious Civil War tie-in.  Slott's She-Hulk though might not be on Nextwave's level, but it still doesn't take the Marvel Universe particularly seriously.  I'll have to check out the Civil War She-Hulk stuff to see how it reads, but my point to Stray was that if it was that hard to take seriously, that might have been the intent as most of Slott's work isn't very serious.  And of course let me once again plug his GLA mini which I would very much recommend picking up in TPB as it was one of my favorite stories written last year.

The She-Hulk in question was #8.

Another problem that contributed to me not getting into it was the (I'm guessing?) House of M backstory it was placed in. Something to do with She-Hulk having a spell placed on her by the Scarlet Witch (which caused people to not notice that She-Hulk was Jen and Jen was She-Hulk......Or something like that).

Also, she was married to John Jameson, who in turn, is Capt. America's secret best friend and top pilot for SHIELD.

That shit is just stupid. It's bad enough that there's a "She-Hulk" in the first place.


The part that I guess was comical (except it didn't seem very comical) was when She-Hulk decided to represent some of the remaining New Warriors in a defamation case. It was ridiculous.


I read one of the Thunderbolts issues as well. I liked it, but it was a little confusing. It seemed like I was missing a huge chunk of the storyarc.

John Jameson has been friends with Cap for a while now.  He was Cap's pilot back during Gruenwald's Cap run I think.  Can't speak to the rest of it as I've only infrequently read Slott's She-Hulk, due to basically the same reason I didn't keep up with this Thing series.  I liked Slott's writing but had zero interest in the title characters.

Thunderbolts can be pretty complicated if you haven't been reading the whole time.  Fabian likes to throw in tons of characters and sub-plots (unlike his 90's X-men stuff though, all the sub-plots are taken to conclusion at some point).  It makes sense in a book where you're trying to rehabilitate career criminals though as it has to be a long ongoing process.  I also haven't like the current Thunderbolts series as much as the last one.

I admit, I don't really keep up. It's just that that kind of stuff rubs me the wrong way. Kind of like Spider-Man's villains -- It's like everyone in Peter Parker's life who isn't Aunt May or MJ is a villain by night (Connors, Brock, Oswald, Octavian, err.....John Jameson). You would think that Marvel's Universe is a very, very small world for all these people to know each other.

But like I said, the idea of She-Hulk is lame to begin with. I shouldn't expect much. She's already like Bruce Banner's cousin or something, right? AND she's got Hulk powers too? But of course she's married to John Jameson! How could it be otherwise?

I wonder where Kevin Bacon fits in all of this.

I've always liked She-Hulk as a character, and have to admit to being turned off to Slott's silly interpretation of her. The Scarlet Witch putting that spell on She-Hulk predates House of M and Avengers Disassembled by at least a year or two. I think it happened back when She-Hulk went on a rampage. I like the She-Hulk that was in Fantastic Four and Avengers. The satirical law agency dealing with super-hero stuff has just left me cold.

She-Hulk's origin has about as much logic in it as the Hulk's. She gets hit by a car, needs a blood transfusion which she gets from her cousin Bruce. The gamma radiation in him inflicts the Hulk curse on her. But at least she's mostly sane and cognizant when she's Hulked out.

Back to the topic at hand though, Civil War is crap as is just about anything at Marvel developed by the hive mind there.  They spend more time thinking up crazy ideas than they do actually writing the stories to tell around those ideas.  If you read any Bendis/Quesada interview about House of M before the book came out, you already knew 99% of the story.  The same is starting to look true with Civil War because it's almost all filler material wrapped around the basic story idea that Marvel has been spouting in interviews for the past several months.  I'm much happier when people just shut up and tell a story without trying to sell me on it in advance, even if I don't like it.  I wouldn't have a fraction of the distate for House of M, New Avengers, Civil War, etc..., if people from Mavel hadn't spent so much time patting themselves on the back for thier epic storytelling.

I get that it's business and they have to promote their big events.  I even understand that most of these guys love comics, and love what they do, and are enthusiastic about their work.  Just please, for the love of God, they just need to shut the fuck up sometimes.  Or at the very least, tell me more about Brian K. Vaughn's upcoming Dr. Strange book.  The poor guy had to post a teaser image up on his myspace page to get publicity despite Quesada doing a weekly Q&A session every Friday on Newsarama (to be fair though, Quesada does often cover a wide range of topics).

Yeah, I didn't realize what you guys were always harping on about Marvel until I gave some of the Ultimate stuff a chance a while back. Civil War turns me off in the same way.

I think it's all Bendis.

His name keeps popping up around most of the shit I don't like at least.


Still surprised by Planet Hulk though (to go off topic once again  :-)). The writer is Greg Pak. Who, upon doing some research, looks to be just some indie director/actor of pseudo manga robot movies....Or something. No comic experience apparently. Whatever. Good enough for me.

Another good thing about Hulk right now is that he's about as far removed from Civil War as can be. He might be the only mainstream character who is.

Anyways, it's good sci fi. Not necessarily good "comic book" material maybe. If you're at all a Surfer fan though, and into a lot of the otherworldly themes that touches upon, then you'd probably like this.

I read the first part of Planet Hulk.  It was ok stuff.  Didn't really feel like a Hulk story, but then Hulk has hung out in the Microverse and worked in Vegas as Mr. Fixit so I guess maybe there really isn't any sort of "real" Hulk story.  Anyhow I know that Planet Hulk is something like 12 issues long and seemed to me the kind of thing that would read better all at once, so I'm holding off on reading the rest until it's finished.

And yes Bendis is a big problem, although sometimes I understand where he's coming from.  He's an indy comic writer who has been given free reign over the Marvel Universe with seemingly little editorial oversight, he's constantly being told by the guys in charge how great his stuff is, and Ultimate Spider-man, New Avengers, and House of M have like it or not been some of Marvel's biggest sellers.  A lot of us here may love Nextwave but New Avengers consistantly sells around 5-6X as many copies as Nextwave goes.  He does a lot of stupid shit and gets caught up in his own hype far too often.

Edit:  Mind you I'm probably a bit more forgiving than Haemish as I still enjoy several Marvel books like Thunderbolts, Runaways, Captain America, Brubaker's run of Daredevil (although killing off Foggy Nelson AND announcing it in the solicits 3 months in advance hurt my opinion of it quite a bit, but for some reason I can't help but think Foggy is still alive), the Ares mini that just wrapped up, the occasional issue of Exiles, Astonishing X-men (even if it hasn't lived up to its opening arc), Nextwave of course, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting.

I started reading this thread, thinking about possibly torrenting a few issues to see what's happening in Marvel-land all these years later. Then I started skimming, and now I'm just glad that I did go through this thread, because it's saved me the time and effort of looking at any of that marvel-branded superhero tripe again for another 10 or so years.

The funny thing is, I have those books (Thunderbolts and Runaways) collected, I just haven't gotten time to read them yet. Captain America is decent, though I'm still not sure I like the more realistic take on the character. The Brubaker DD stuff has been decent, except that it originates from the same clusterfuck story that Bendis left. The whole Matt Murdock in prison thing just isn't working for me. I had no problem with them killing Foggy (and I'm sure he's dead dead deader dead), I just hated the way they did it.

Daredevil is being written as if it was supposed to have an ending, which would be fine, but you know that it's selling well enough to not be cancelled, so you know it won't end. That means the writer is going to have to do some serious narrative gymnastics to get the story back to an equilibirum that allows for monthly continuity.

I don't remember if some of this stuff has been discussed openly or not so I'll just say SPOILERZ anyways:

Well, I'll be the voice of dissent, again.

I like Civil War.

Mind you, I haven't been following comics for a long time.  I just started picking it back up and for the first time in my entire life I have monthly books.

I'm also not your standard comic fan.  People judge the art a lot in books, but for me, as long as it's not bad to the point of distraction, I'm okay with it.  (For bad to the point of distraction see the first couple issues in Batman: Cataclysm)

I haven't been following every Marvel book.  The continuity error in Iron Man, for instance, I'd have never heard about.  I do believe that Iron Man switching sides is intentional, however, as he's being extremely manipulative about the whole thing.  I don't know if that's in character for him, I never liked Iron man so I don't know him all that well.  Parker revealing his identity to the world made sense as it was done.  Peter's problem is, and always has been, that he's a bit naive and easily manipulated.  He's also extremely idealistic.  I think he's going to change sides later.

I like the political parallels.  I especially like the scenes in Front Line comparing events in the MU to real world history events (Iron Man to Caeser, and the registration with the Japanese Internment Camps).

I like Mark Millar a lot as a writer and think he's doing well with the main book.  I've liked all of the crossover stuff so far except the Thunderbolts one largely because there are SO many characters and I don't know who a damn one of them is.  The Fantastic Four crossover was especially good.  I'm no fan of Bendis, but I liked the New Avengers crossover.  That's probably because I'm reading it as part of the Civil War story, not as part of the New Avengers story.  I'm not concerned about where the book is going after that, because I won't be picking up anything that doesn't have that Civil War bar on it.  I don't really give a shit about the New Avengers, because I think it's a dumb idea.  I don't think the issue was "nothing", because it's interesting to see how everyone landed on the sides they did.  The conversation with Pym was well written.  Amazingly enough, Bendis didn't try to show off how clever he is.

I do think the story would have been better without the Decimation having taken place.

A friend of mine who was totally anti-Marvel has been completely turned around by this event, and soured on his previous golden child DC because of the way Infinite Crisis was handled.  He's an intelligent guy with usually well-reasoned points, and I'm with him on this one.  I'm liking this event far more than Infinite Crisis.  It's closer to home.  DC tends to write stories about Good VS Evil (not always, but often) and Marvel (of late anyways) tends to write more political stories involving far more gray.

One thing that did and will continue to bother me about Infinite Crisis is the society of super villains.  See, most people who are like that wouldn't outright sign up with a group identifying themselves as evil.  Most people don't consider themselves evil.  A guy like Captain Nazi, for instance, who seems to identify himself as evil isn't really portraying the Nazi belief- because they thought they were right.

But I'm straying.

Point is, I don't know what reasoning you're all using.  All I see when I come here is "This is shit" or "It sucks" with very little to back that up.  You're all starting to post like Ironwood.  Let's face it, the guy's funny but that's not exactly constructive.  Reading these posts it sounds to me like you guys are trying really hard not to like this and aren't really sure why.

So what is it?  Aside from continuity which, let's face it, isn't that big a fucking deal (given that you all so greatly enjoyed a recent DC event that may as well have been titled "Our continuity is fucked, let's rewrite it again!") what exactly is wrong with this event?

I've found it believable for the world it's in, I've found most characters' actions reasonable, and the story carries weight because it's a very obvious parallel to things going on in our world right now.  Plus it has badasses diving out of windows and onto jets.

The story COULD get all fucked up in the future, but so far I've found the whole thing quite enjoyable.

And fuck all you if you don't.  You're all probably just John Byrne posting under a shitload of different names for the sake of realism.  You know he's crazy enough to do it.

God.  I'm the only guy at this site who isn't John Byrne, aren't I?  Well, me and everyone else who went to E3.  I'm pretty sure they weren't John Byrne.

Bendis is still a cocky jackass, though.

qft.

I used to think that injecting real world events into comics was a good idea. I still think it can be done well, but I think Civil War is just an example of it being done really really badly. The thing about real world events, or even allegorical stories that are meant to be about real world events like most sci-fi, is that if they are too obvious, it becomes preachy. And Civil War is WAY too obvious. It reads like a hodge podge of afterschool specials about the dangers of absolute power and soundbites out of the press hype Marvel's been using on the book. It takes itself way too seriously, IMO.

Bendis's dialogue sounds fine the first 3 or 4 times I read it. In Jinx, AKA: Goldfish and Torso, it worked because it fit the kind of indy film noir Pulp Fictiony style of the story. It even works in Daredevil at first. But after the 50th or 60th issue, it loses all its lustre. It becomes stale. What makes it even worse is when it's used with characters that would never talk like that, such as Captain America or Iron Man. This part may just be a longtime geek talking, but really his characterizations of these characters is just plain NOT RIGHT. It flies in the face of 40 years of narrative history. That's probably why people new to the comics don't mind it, but with comics, you have to treat these characters as BRANDS as much as your characters. It's been a rare writer that can make such a change to a character and have it work. With Spider-Man, Bendis is spot on (other than the revealing his identity thing) and he's been pretty close on Daredevil. But most of his other characters don't act like they have in the past and it feels forced.

Civil War the main series is certainly better because it lacks the Bendis dialogue. But the premise doesn't work for me. It makes assumptions about charcters that just aren't there, Iron Man and Spider-Man being the worst examples of mischaracterization. It doesn't even get the powers right for people like Nitro or Speedball or Namorita. Again, this may be a case of geek pride, but if you are going to write an event of such magnitude, you need to pay MORE attention to continuity than ever, not less. The Iron Man continuity fuckup is just salt in the wound.

I'd agree about the preachy thing, but I think they've done a pretty decent job of not drawing a line of who's right and who's wrong.

Both Iron Man and Captain America are pretty much acting like dicks about it.  Meanwhile you've got people like Spider-Man and Reed Richards back up Iron Man's side and staying pretty reasonable about it, but Sue Storm is making a lot of good points against.

If they just flat out portrayed the act as evil, I could agree about the preachy thing.  As it is, I really believe all the involved characters are well-meaning, and I'm still on the fence about who's really /right/.

I agree 100% about Bendis.  He writes Spider-Man exactly how Spider-Man should be written.  But people in SHIELD don't talk like that.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean about them getting Nitro/Speedball/Namorita's powers wrong.  Speedball's power is to create a frictionless force field around himself, Nitro's power is to exlode and reform, and Namorita's powers are flight, strength, and other generic Namor-like crap.  What was misportrayed?

agree+1

All I had to hear was Iron Man back in stupid team, overall plotlines still make no sense or do not exist.  While the characters are in so many books at once that things dont add up and one has to wonder how the hell they have time for it all.  Same as it ever was.  Comic books were fun when I was a kid and didn't analyze the things that entertained me.  Now I fear if I picked any up I would end up like Haemish, spending a ton of money on things that I end up expressing loathing for if anyone asks me about them in a public or intellectual setting.

That is what my anime (and MMO I suppose) habit is for and I dont pay for any of the stuff that sucks because I check out every show before purchasing dvd's.  Plus I've moved on from men in spandex to giant robots and I think I'm a better person for it.

I expressed my reasons for disliking Civil War both here (regarding the 2nd issue on the first page of this topic), and in regards to the Illuminati prelude over in the New Avengers thread.  I went so far as to say that I thought the basic story idea for Civil War is an interesting one and something I wouldn't mind reading if it didn't take place in the Marvel Universe where Millar or whoever could create their own characters that would fit the parts they're playing.  As it stands though, I don't see the point of writing stories for Marvel, using Marvel characters if you don't plan on actually having them acting in character and I don't see the point of doing big cross-overs if you can't keep continutiy straight between the titles.  A few months ago, Cap was completely against the idea of the Young Avengers, not wanting teenagers out there risking their lives.  Now he's recruiting them as part of his undergound movement against U.S. law.   Really, this just isn't how Cap does stuff.

Now I'll admit, part of the reason I might have liked Infinite Crisis so much is because I don't know a lot of the details in DC continuity.  There could very well have been errors made, and some of the characters might not have been written properly.  The characters I do know were protrayed fairly well though, and I don't remember to many continuity glitches between the books involved.  DC also doesn't have the habit of blowing most of the story months before it comes out.

I've expressed numerous times my love for various Marvel books.  I don't have any vendetta against them or anything.  I haven't been fond of anything written by the grouping of Quesada, Bendis, JMS, and Millar, because they have these big ideas but can't be bothered to get the details right.  Infite Crisis by all accounts took a hell of a lot of time to plot and get everything straight.  At Marvel it seems like they can't even be bothered to go down the hall to find out if Iron Man is for or against the Registration Act this week.

I started replying to this but decided to make a new thread, since my tangent has nothing to do with the Civil War storyline.

Nitro has never been that powerful. Period. He suddenly went from small but devestating explosions to taking out city blocks.

Speedball's power is what you said, but he's taken bigger blows than Nitro's and come out fine. Many writers have hypothesized that he just couldn't be hurt. If I remember right, he's taken shots from Terrax and come out fine, and Terrax packs more punch than Nitro ever did.

Namorita is close to invulnerable, just like Namor. Nitro couldn't just kill her. He might hurt her, but he couldn't kill her. They've essentially taken a second-rate villain and turned him into something he isn't.

One can only hope that at the end of the series that the Watcher wakes up and says it was all just a bad dream.

So the real problem with the misportrayal of powers is that they made Nitro's explosion more powerful than it should've been.

Your other power complaints are symptoms of that.

<shrug>

I don't see that as invalidating the entire story.  But on this it's clear I'm just going to have to agree to disagree, because I don't care enough to try to convince you all (and doubt I could if I did care).

Sorry you guys don't like it.  Personally, I'm enjoying the hell out of it and hope it has a lasting effect on the Marvel Universe.

Well, at the very least, I am interested to see how they manage that. Right now, it would seem that the Avengers, as we know them, will never exist again....And that the Spider-Man just lost 90% of what was interesting and comical about him.

The Avengers as we know them haven't existed for a couple years and likely would never exist again as long as Bendis writes them anyway.

It's the little things that count. That one little incident is the whole crux of the series, because without the death of all those little schoolchildren, a death that should not have happened had they been internally consistent with the entire history of the universe, the Registration Act would not have been so widely supported. Once the Act got out there, all the big characters start acting in complete opposition to their previous histories as well. In short, no one is acting as history has shown they should. It would work great as an indy book with a completely separate universe, like Rising Stars did. But with these characters, it rings hollow because we already know how they SHOULD be acting, and this isn't it.

And worse, once the series is done, these characters will be painted into a corner, just like Bendis did when he left Daredevil in jail. Spider-Man's outed and his entire life as we've known it should be destroyed, NO ONE in the MU should trust Iron Man with anything, Reed Richards and Henry Pym have become the MU's version of Nazi scientists, and yes, the whole universe should be changed. If they can stay consistent with that for 5 years, then it MIGHT be worthwhile. But I just get the feeling they CAN'T stay consistent beyond this series, because it is such a huge change for all involved. It's an Age of Apocalypse type of story only it has to be worked around in all the regular books.

Again, comic heroes in established universes are brands, and have to be treated as such. This is akin to a complete corporate makeover, more severe than the Infinite Crisis/One Year Later type of change. Any variance in consistency is just going to make all the other things that fall out of it worse.

Even more to the point, comics are folklore, and these are archetypes. They're not merely fiction like you would find in novels -- They're myths. Each character can evolve and grow to a point, but they all have a general tagline quality that can not and should not change. If you write stories that shake things up too much, all it does is castrate the characters in the longterm (but like I said, I'm sorta interested to see how Marvel pulls themselves out of that problem).

They could always have the antimatter universe attack and rewrite reality.

I'd buy that before I buy this.

Or the Scarlett Witch gains some 'sanity' and plays with the universe again...

Ooo! The Hulk could punch the walls of reality!

I've gone on a Comic kick again lately, and downloaded all the current Civil War stuff.  And while I do understand some of the complaints, I'm going to have to side with Llava on this.  I'm liking it so far.  Sometimes I think you guys just hate everything ;).  We'll see how it goes though, as I agree with sloppyness on continuity.  I also have read very little in comics compared to you guys, so maybe I'm just not jaded yet.

Do you hate the Ultimate Universe as well HaemishM, when you say your not likeing any marvel books?  I've been enjoying all the comics set in it quite a bit.  Marvel seems to be doing good there, imo.  I've also really enjoyed all The Punisher stuff that Ennis has been doing for several years now.  Probably my favorite comic actually.

That's only because nobody ever comments in the threads I make for the comics I actually like.

Edit: For the record there are about 14 books I can name off the top of my head that I purchase and enjoy on a monthly (or however often they come out ) basis, almost all of which I've mentioned here.  If I don't like Civil War, it's not because I hate comics, it's just because I don't like Civil War.

Funny you should mention the Ultimate Universe though as I think Civil War would actually fit much better with the characters there.

The only Ultimate stuff I've gotten a chance to read is the first 40 issues or so of Ultimate Spider-Man. While I feel Bendis got the Spider-Man character down, I finally just stopped reading the book. It was ok, not nearly as bad as some of the stuff they've done in the MU continuity with Spider-Man, but it came down to the fact that I really just don't like Spider-Man as a character, even when he's written well. The changes made in the Ultimate version were a mixed bag. I liked the Venom origin better in Ultimate, but hated the Ultimate version of Aunt May.

As for things I like, I really liked the Infinite Crisis stuff, as well as some of the One Year Later stuff and 52. I've been a big fan of the Teen Titans and Outsiders, the Green Arrow, Greg Rucka's Wonder Woman, the Flash books right up until the end. In days past, I was more of a Marvel fan than DC, but I've really switched over. I just think DC is putting out a better, more coherent and consistent stable of books. Marvel's only real winner to me is Nextwave. Everything else I'm either not reading yet (Runaways, Exiles), has been uneven or hard to swallow (Daredevil, my favorite comic character ever, Young Avengers, Astonishing X-Men), or has just plain sucked it (New Avengers, X-Books). I will say the Brubaker Uncanny X-Men run looks interesting, even though I hated Deadly Genesis and the Vulcan character, but I'm not sure how long they are going to keep that team of X-Men in that book.

My understanding is that it's a 12 issue arc.  First issue was pretty good, although I've never much cared for Polaris.  I like the rest of the team though.

I could agree with that, but that Captain America would be in favor of it and you'd probably just have Thor against it, since he's the only leftist I can think of in that universe off the top of my head.  And they've already played the Thor/Captain America conflict up so much, it wouldn't really be anything different.

Haemish, you really ought to read the Ultimates books.  Those are quite good.  Ultimate Spider-Man is more geared towards kids than the usual Marvel Books, and the Ultimates is more geared towards adults.

I liked Ultimate Spidey at first, but it kinda degenerated. Not for the juvenile stuff so much as it was Bendis' writing style and plot ideas (if I recall, it's still better than Ultimate X-Men though).

Ultimate Iron Man was probably my favorite -- despite me previously not liking the character very much.

One caveat though -- I only liked Ultimate Iron-Man before Shield got involved (so it wasn't very many issues that I liked). Ultimate Nick Fury/Shield sucks.

On another note: I just discovered Jim Steranko (yeah, I'm a newb). In his hands, Nick Fury is the shit. I had no idea. It's like Frazetta, Steve McQueen, and Austin Powers combined.

As far as Marvel goes, I like everything Surfer related. I love the recent Planet Hulk series. And as I mentioned above, I think the short lived career of Jim Steranko was the shit.

But nobody comments on these things here. My posts don't exist. Unless I mention stuff multiple times.  :-P

So, I think the Surfer is a cool idea.

But I have a question:

A surfboard?  Really?  Why?

I think Lee gave him a surfboard because he was always trying to tap into the "hip" counter-culture of his time.

Plus it meets two needs for a unique flying character:

1) Self propelled flight was getting old even back when Stan Lee created him. A surfboard provided new kinds of imagery (probably the same reason why he gave Spidey his web slinging).

2) It gives artists the ability to draw a character who travels through space, but isn't confined in a ship. That way you can draw the character directly against all of those celestial backdrops. It'd be a lot more boring if he was sitting in a cockpit all the time, don't you think?

Well, right, but a surfboard just seems like a very strange choice.

But I guess you're right about self-propelled flight.

Personally, I love surfing, but back then, all the kids loved it. Even kids from Nebraska. There was even a whole subgenre of rock 'n' roll music devoted exclusively to surfing. There is no other sport, activity, or hobby that has been celebrated in quite the same way again.

So anyways, it may seem strange now, but it wasn't strange back then.

I'd get all that, except the character's not from Earth.  If he was a human, I could see him requesting a surfboard in the early days.

But I'll just have to accept it, even if it is ever so slightly immersion breaking.

Oh, I see what you're saying...

Is "Surfboards are cool" good enough then?  8-)

Also, Lee is generally inclined to name the beginning of his characters' first and last names with the same letters. That's just how his mind works sometimes. Peter Parker, Bruce Banner, Reed Richards, the Fantastic Four, Doctor Doom, and so forth. I'm sure the words "Silver Surfer" popped into his head with big lights and he just rolled with it.

Lastly, it's a pretty simple device. Surely, if alien worlds have oceans and wave breaks, then they've come up with idea of surfboards as well. Just like if aliens lived amongst harsh terrains and had feet, then more than likely they have shoes too. Or if their planet had the technology of flight, then they've probably taken into account aerodynamics and equipped their vehicles with wings.

[EDIT]

Hmm...

Apparently, Galactus turned him silver and gave him a surfboard simply because the two things were among Norrin's childhood fantasies. I never read that before, and I'm not sure which issue it came from (the info is from Wikipedia).


Anywho...

Shall we now discuss the myriad effects of gamma ray radiation? Or why does Superman's native Kryptonian garb carry an odd resemblance to a superhero costume?

That native kryptonian stuff was always silly to me.

That's not a kryptonian symbol on your chest.  It's a giant S.  It stands for "Super".  Duh.

I've now read the first six issues of the Ultimates Vol. 1. Yeah, THIS series I like. There are a few bits I don't agree with, like the Sam Jackson as Nick Fury thing, or the little conversational bits about what actor should play the Ultimates, but overall, I like the direction. It feels different enough from the MU that I'm not bothered by the overboard updating they've done, and the story is believable. I also like the fact that every character has a different voice, one of my biggest complaints about Bendis.

Read through Civil War:  Frontline #3.  Battlestar, Typeface, and Solo are on the anti-registration side.  Kinda makes me hope Iron Man recruits Scourge to track down non-registered heroes because these guys need the "Justice is Served" bullet to the head.  Aside from Battlestar I don't see Cap wanting to ally with these guys.  Given their track-records I'm not sure why these guys don't just retire.

I have no idea who Thunderclap and Bantam are.  This sequence kinda help me understand what one of the overall problems I have with this story is though.  Incidents like this and Stamford would have realisitically happened on a somewhat frequent basis in the MU.  As a comic fan though you have to accept that somehow heroes almost magically are able to avoid schools getting blown up in combat or accidentally knocking another hero into a tanker full of gas.  It's hard to get readers to accept decades worth of stories where accidents and  collateral damage are very limited even during a lot of the biggest battles and then try to make things more "realistic".

Have you ever read Damage Control? It was a funny take on that sort of issue.

Yeah their books were entertaining.  They're actually supposed to make an appearance in the Sept. issue of Wolverine I think.  Still, I think the reason why they don't pop up in books too often is because it's best not to the think too much about the logistics of cleaning up the the aftermath of all the superhero battles.  The idea works as a mini though.

Still loving this story.

Picked up Cable and Deadpool as well, and I actually thought the writing was a little weak this time around.  Not bad, mind you, but not as good as usual.

I'll bring up New Avengers #22 here since it's a Civil War tie-in, and suprisingly it's a mostly decent issue.  Bendis writes a pretty good Luke Cage and at this point in the crossover there's no point to getting hung up on Iron Man's characterization.  Hell, with Iron Man being the "villain" characters like Luke Cage actually get to do something for a change.  It's a nice change of pace.  The downside to this issue though which kept me from being able to actually enjoy it is the artwork.  It's dark, muddy, and in a few spots confusing.  Once the action starts up, there are panels where it's hard to tell what's going on.

Also read the Young Avengers/Runaways tie-in.  It's not written by the regular writer of either series which wouldn't be a problem except that Runaways Vol. 2 #18 which just came out a week or two ago had some very important plot developments.  This book has to acknowledge the developments as it takes place 1 month later, but it can't really advance the plot threads.  I don't want to go into details and ruin anything for people who might be following Runways in trades or whatever, but there's something that just seems really off given the end of issue 18.  On the other hand I can see this mini getting Civil War readers interested in both books.

I just read New Avengers 22 as well. That was the best damn issue of New Avengers that has been done since the book started. Bendis actually does "GET" the street level characters. He writes Cage as well as can be expected (though I still think the "voice" of Bendis's dialogue is too clipped). The artwork can get confusing, but I like the moodiness. It reminds me of early Sienkiewicz. I've long since accepted that both Iron Man and Ms. Marvel are characterized completely wrong by the entire Civil War story, so I just shrug off their acting like Bradburian Firemen and moved on.

Was that the clash of the titans between Deadpool and Squirrel Girl?

Yes, that was the highlight of the book.

It fell kinda flat for me since Slott had pretty much done the same kinda thing recently (several times over actually, having her defeat Modok, Thanos, and Terrax in the GLX-Mas special).

I still say that's Squirrel Girl's secondary mutation - she can beat anyone in a fight.

Turns out, you're right.

From Wolverine 44:

Nitro: What if... What if I gave you somebody else?  Another name?
W:  The name of somebody else who killed over 600 people?
N:  Yeah... yeah, that's right.  You ever stop to wonder how I did that?  It's not like I'd ever had that kinda power before.
W:  You got maybe ten seconds.

It's a new use of something that's been shown before, and a plausible explanation.

Doesn't that make it kinda hard to blame the New Warriors for what happened then?  Instead of being a careless superhero team who took on a group of villains who were out of their league, it seems like they would have beaten the villains pretty soundly if not for Nitro having some sort of unknown upgrade.  The Avengers should have been commenting that while the Stamford incident was unfortunate, it could have happened to anyone.

And, more than likely, that's what will happen once it gets out that Nitro was hopped up on something.

But Wolverine's the only one who knows so far.

Course, by that point, the line will probably be so firmly drawn in the ground that the New Warriors won't really matter anymore.

Why is Wolverine the only one that knows so far though?  If Haemish can figure out that there was a major boost in Nitro's powers how come the Avengers, who have a computer system with detailed listings on pretty much every known supervillain, couldn't figure it out right away?  Cap and Iron Man should have known from the start that something was off.

Because most everyone has been focusing on the Registration Act and the New Warriors, very few people are actually interested in going after Nitro.  Sorta like Osama Bin Laden not being a priority.  Wolverine decided to go off on his own and take care of it, and that's how he found out.

I find it plausible to believe that, having seen Nitro do it with a recording, and having to deal with the aftermath and ensuing chaos, most people are too preoccupied to ask "Wait, can he do that?"  Likely, most people who would ask that question would just assume he'd held back before.

Ok, let me put it this way.  The Registration Act came into effect because the New Warriors came across as careless and reckless going after a group of villains knowing they were out of their league against the villains.  Now not only did the New Warriors not rush in and attack (they planned to but were spotted first effectively taking the decision out of their hands anyway), but they take out 3 of the villains fairly quickly.  Had Nitro's power level remained consistant they could have taken him out with no problem as well.  This wasn't a group of heroes that got careless and took on someone too powerful for them, this is a group that was winning the fight with ease until they found out the hard way that Nitro was a lot more powerful than before.  The same thing would have happened to the Avengers and yet in the aftermath of the event Cap himself is saying that Speedball should have called the Avengers because the New Warriors were obviously outmatched.

That's the problem I have.  Nitro is known through the MU as a c-list villain.  His only claim to fame is to indirectly causing Captain Marvel's cancer.  If the New Warriors had to call for backup for every villain at that level, their series would have consisted of them whipping out their cell phones to call the Avengers any time they faced something more threatening than a common criminal.  Instead of wondering why the fuck Speedball didn't call them, Iron Man and Cap should have been wondering when the hell Nitro could devastate several blocks like that.  The public should be worrying about a supervillian who has become the equivalent of a suicide bomber without the suicide.  I realize that there's a secret agenda in here and that the press and public are being manipulated.  Fucking Cap at least should have known better though and set the record straight rather than joining in the blame game.

edit:  For the record though so I don't come across like I'm trying to pick it apart and find things to hate, none of this really bothers me too much.  The main purpose of the whole sequence was just to quickly set things up to get the story to the Registration Act.  If it wasn't this it would have been something else.  Personally I would have liked to have seen more leading up to the Act in months prior to Civil War #1 (introduce the Registration Act and have it gain popularity among the public as more and more shit goes wrong rather than have one incident and have it pushed through seemeingly overnight which seems kinda quick for the government).

Yeah, what Velorath said. Nitro's power being off either wasn't taken seriously by the heroes (which it should have been, meaning the characters were written to be dumber than they are - i.e. bad writing) or was just used as an excuse by the writers and when they got called on it, had to invent something else, i.e. something behind the whole deal. Frankly, if it turns out to be just another villain plot, I'll be highly disappointed. Civil War has the chance to change the MU permanently (even though I really don't agree with the change). Having a big bad supervillain behind it, like say the people from Shield that have been behind the escape of the villains on the Raft in New Avengers #1, is pretty transparent. I just get the feeling that most of the changes done in the book are going to be undone in the near future.

*cough*Scarlet Witch back from wherever she went*cough*
She's a deus ex machina waiting to happen.

Joe Q. has said that the Scarlet Witch won't be fixing the changes in Civil War. But I wouldn't put it past him.

No, but she can fix the next Marvel world event that just so happens to alter things so fundamentally that the act never effectively happened...

I'll settle for her altering reality so that Bendis never got a job writing the Avengers.

Reed Richards is an imbecile (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/2246596.html#cutid1).
"Let's lock up hundreds of super-powered beings in a prison that drives them insane! Yay! I R teh smrt!"

Wait, wait, wait. REED RICHARDS wants to put the captured super HEROES in the NEGATIVE ZONE? What... the... fuck?

I haven't read Frontline #5 yet, but I can't see how anyone with any knowledge of the character at all would think that was within his character.

Was talking with a friend about this, because it does seem pretty screwed up, but it looks like this isn't the big super secret prison that Richards and Pym are working on.  This thing has already made previous appearances in some obscure Fantastic Four series, which would indicate that (since they talked about "building" this prison) this ain't the brainchild.

Even so, we have no idea who actually IS ordering them stored in the Negative Zone, and it would seem that, given Richards' experience with the place, he's still the most likely culprit despite it being against his character.

But, I should point out that at no point is he indicated or shown to be behind this, other than it being high tech and in the negative zone.

If Richards ISN'T behind the Negative Zone prison, that would be a very bad thing for the MU characters, moreso than the Registration Act.

But with Richards being the foremost (and likely one of only 3 or 4) expert on the Negative Zone, I find it improbably he isn't in some way involved.

Looks like it'll take a while to find out since the whole thing is being delayed a month (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=80636).  I don't know if it's the writing or the art that's delaying this but when looking at delays on the Ultimates also, I'll be very cautious about picking up a "monthly" series written by Mark Millar in the future.

Millar has Crohn's Disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crohn%27s_Disease), hence the delays.

Which both he and Marvel knew well before him taking on the job.  I feel for the guy and certainly his health is more important than getting some comics out there, although we don't know for sure his health is the cause of this particular delay.  Still, we're looking at a good chunk of Marvel's titles getting delayed as a result of Civil War 4 & 5 getting pushed back a month, which isn't good for readers or retailers.

Well son of a bitch.

It's all the worse because I love Millar's writing.

Brevoort's explanation for the delay here (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=80780).

Summary:  We have a sick writer, our artist is behind because our planning was shit and didn't give him enough lead time, and sorry for all the retailers out there we screwed but when they complain about this it's only because those fuckers always think about their short-term profits and not what's best for the industry.

Wow, what a dick. The series was badly planned, from an editorial and narrative angle, and it's late because of it. The illness sucks, and I can certainly understand that causing some problems. But the fill-in artists make sales go down thing? I don't buy it. Usually, the sales go down if the fill-in artist is an untalented monkey.

Sales on the Ultimate Galactus stuff were low because people didn't like the pacing of it.  I love most of Ellis' work, but those books were too slow.  Didn't have shit to do with fill-in artists from what I could tell.  And hell, I hate fill-in artists too, and I could understand why they wouldn't want to use one in most cases.  It's jarring to read a tpb or something and have the art change mid-storyline.  Still, when your fuck-up affects half your line and causes delays all the way into March, and prevents new books from launching on time you should probably just bite the bullet.

I liked the Ultimate Galactus stuff, but that was likely because I read it all in one huge lump. I can see how monthly would make that one feel real slow. But that's what happens when you direct your writers to write for TPB's on a monthly. They either Bendis it up, with pages and pages of useless not even really characterization or they don't have enough space because they started with the idea that they'd have plenty and then added to it as they went along.

I actually read both existing trades one after another.

And it was slow.  Of Ellis' work, I liked it the least.

Read the Thunderbolts 105 as part of my regular reading, which continues its CW tie-in.  There is a good scene between Zemo and Cap in there, although with the tendency for the rest of the MU to ignore what's going on in Thunderbolts I wonder if Zemo giving Cap the key will actually be picked up on in the main series.  There is also some build up to resolve the overall plot that's been going on since Thunderbolts relaunched.  Hopefully the payoff will clear the deck a bit for the Thunderbolts and allow it to be easier for new readers to pick up and follow.

Read the New Avengers #23 (Spider-Woman spotlight) and Wolverine #45.

The Spider-Woman thing was ok, but I keep coming back to the characterizartion of Iron Man. It just isn't him. I don't care how far you retcon or stretch the story of Iron Man, Tony Stark is not going to act like this. He just isn't. If anything, I'd have expected him to be more on the Captain America side. I'd expect a complete role reversal from what's being shown here. Which makes the political allegories in this story even more galling, and the story even more ham-fisted.

Walter Declun? Where have I heard that name from? Any comics geeks can give me the lowdown on that name?

Only returns on Google are referring specifically to this instance of the name being mentioned, otherwise not a whisper.

But he's the CEO of Damage Control Inc.  That's all we got.

I'd long since gotten sick of Spider-Woman's plot which in two years hasn't advanced so much as spun around in circles.  And yeah, Marvel hasn't damaged Tony Stark's character this bad since the Crossing.  The character has been wasted potential at Marvel for quite a while now though as I can't remember the last creative team that had a good run on Iron Man.

Given the really mercurial nature of Stark's character over the last few years, I'm surprised Shield would even let him on the helicarrier, must less be in charge of rounding up rogue superheroes. I mean, he's gone from being Sec. of Defense and having an in-costume meltdown in front of the UN, in his current book he's just been controlled by a fucking teenager with an axe to grind and made to kill bitches left and right (which according to shitty editorial comments, is prior to the founding of the New Avengers), he's hidden things like the House of M stuff from Shield, and lied to the world about his being Iron Man again.

What the fuck else do you need to do to have your security clearance aboard the world's biggest spy airship revoked?

Cable and Deadpool was very funny this week.  I recommend it if you like the humor style at all.  Apparently Thor kills someone on Captain America's side.  I believe that happens in the next Civil War issue.  Cable seems to enjoy delivering zingers to George W.

Young Avengers & Runaways was alright, still think this book is waiting to hit its stride.  I don't entirely know where this book is going as far as Civil War is concerned, but I'd probably keep buying it on its own for the characters and their interactions.  Still, I don't see it continuing beyond Civil War because I doubt Vaughn is interested in giving the Runaways up, so I have to question what this book is trying to accomplish.

I don't think Vaughn wants to give the Runaways up yet, but he has stated that he'd like other people to write them after he's moved on from them.  Like I said, the main problem I have with Young Avengers/Runaways is that it comes during an awkward point in time given what's going on over in Runaways right now and it just doesn't feel right.

On the other hand... damn (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=83023).

SPOILER ALERT.













Civil War #4 has just lept into the realm of the absolutely ridiculous. I started to like it at one point, during the big fight, but then the crazy came out. First, Thor kills Black Goliath, which sucks because BG was a pretty cool hero, if only an artifact of the 70's. Then, we discover it's not Thor, just a THOR CLONE as Tony Stark is apparently Marvel's new version of the paranoid Batman from the JLA. Reed Richards has not only consented to building a prison in the FUCKING PHANTOM ZONE for superheroes, but he's now cloning superhumans to fight other superhumans. WHAT WHAT WHAT? That's Doctor Doom shit, not Reed Richards shit. It's gone from being a somewhat plausible if historically inconsistent idea to one of grandiose stupidity. These characters WOULD NOT DO THIS. That's what it boils down to. It sounds all cool, but the entire history of these characters completely and utterly is in opposition to the acts they are perpetrating.

Tony Stark built Iron Man to make up for the destruction he wrought as a weapons designer. So he helps Reed Richards build superhuman clones? And in the final bit of batshit insane, he apparently has decided to unleash FUCKING SUPERVILLIANS on the resistance movement because his side starts losing supporters thanks to them killing Goliath. And I don't mean just any supervillians, I'm talking about BULLSEYE, VENOM and TASKMASTER.

The only plausible yet cliched explanation for the characters acting this far out of character is mind control. And unfortunately, that'd be a cop out ending at this point.

Best bit in CW4: Here. (http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h308/mdg1024/nwincw.jpg)

Just read it today (yesterday I was reading all the good comics that came out this week like Runaways, Conan, Walking Dead, Astonishing X-men, Nextwave, and X-factor).  Fucking Thor clone.  Brilliant idea guys.  That clone shit worked out great for Marvel in the past didn't it?  And Reed and Tony are surprised they got his personality wrong (or they got his pre-Don Blake, need to learn some humility personality)?  Not even getting into the logistics of cloning a God since this is comics we're talking about, but how the fuck would one go about attempting to clone someone's personality anyway?  It's not like it was encoded into the DNA in Thor's hair strands.

Which is why it didn't work, I think.

I don't know.  The clone was weak.

The death was predictable.  We knew someone was gonna die, who's the most throwaway character who's been around suddenly?  I was talking with a friend last week and we both predicted the same person, and we were both right.

This week wasn't great. <shrug>

(http://forums.f13.net/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=2018;type=avatar)
Who is Max Miller?

They probably mean Mark Millar, writer of Civil War.

Yeah, it's the Nextwave: CIVIL WAR? cover.

you guys must save me at least $20.00/month.  :heart: :-P

Good, you can use it to pick up Runaways and Nextwave.

The latest Iron Man (#12) essentially retconns stuff that happened at the beginning of Civil War. At the end, he makes a statement that is supposed to justify his complete about-face decision to back the registration act. Seeing as how the whole story was written and published after Civil War started, it just makes the whole thing seem even more that spur-of-the-moment and gimmicky.

Saw an advance copy of tomorrows ASM. Remember when the hype started about Civil War and the tagline 'Whose side are you on' was coined? Anyone answeing pro-reg after reading this issue must be nuts. I'm just waiting on the issue where Iron Man ties some damsel onto train tracks and twirls his moustache while laughing like a maniac, the characterisation is that bad. Oh and we find out that Reed Richards family acted just as bad back in the McCarthy era as he's doing now.

After a decent start this whole miniseries is just getting so anti-reg it's not enjoyable any more.

Civil War is total wank.

I have no idea what the fuck they're thinking.

They are trying to destroy the Marvel Universe (and their business).  That is about the only thing civil wars accomplish in the short term.

I finally read all of Runaways and then the Civil War: Young Avengers and Runaways. Holy shit is the whole continuity thing just totally out of whack. The stuff in Civil War doesn't seem to fit right in the Runaways continuity, based on what Chase is doing in #20. Why aren't the editors keeping track of this shit? It would be one thing to ignore continuity if the story was served, but it isn't, especially if something major happens in the Civil War bits. Not to mention removing the whole dramatic tension of "will he live or not?"

Yeah, I've been trying to figure out if Runaways/Young Avengers is a big continuity fuck up or if Marvel really doesn't care that it's fucking up the payoff for a currently running storyline.

I gave up on the Civil War almost from the beginning. Nothing good could from it.

Well, almost nothing. Like I said, Planet Hulk rocks :hulk_rock:

Until they fuck up the ending so it leads into next summer's big story, "World War Hulk".

Necropostage for the win, but Deadpool once again renews my faith in the decision that he's the coolest comic character to ever come out of the Marvel universe.

Read various Civil War tie-ins yesterday and today.  Frontline 6 and Young Avengers/Runaways 3, ASM 535 in particular.  Frontline was especially disappointing in that it's focusing on the sub-plot of the pro-registration side releasing and mind-controlling super villains.  That whole sub-plot... it just seems to me like Marvel has painted themselves into a corner by not wanting to make the Registration Act itself seem right or wrong so instead they kinda cheat by throwing in Thor clones and mind-controlled bad guys.  Oh, and shipping prisoners off into another dimension and then saying they have no right to a trial because they aren't in the US.  They've taken the focus off of the Act itself because they obviously don't know how to resolve an actual political storyline, and instead they give us Reed, Tony, and Maria Hill's acts of supervillany to divert our attention away from the fact that Marvel doesn't actually have a story to tell here.

I thought Runaways/Young Avengers was fantastic.  But it offered me a lot of my favorite things- a Kree badass going totally nuts, Vision doing his intangibility thing, the Runaways altogether... some of my favorite comic book things.

But with Stark and Reed, basically yes, they've gone to acting outright evil now and there better be a damn good explanation.  I'm going to keep picking it up, because I enjoy the stories for what they are, but even I'm having a hard time justifying it in the Marvel Universe at this point.

Which has been my whole point about the Civil War story. Either the writers have written these characters badly by ignoring the way they've acted in the past, or they have a "secret plot" that's making them act in complete opposition to the way they've acted in the past. The first is inexcusable, the second is a very delicate thing to pull off well, and so far, nothing has shown me they can pull it off well when the big villain is revealed. I mean, who has the telepathic power to pull this off? Shadow King? Xavier (before he lost his powers)?

Of course, I've heard rumors that Onslaught is returning, and if they make this an Onslaught plot, I'll have to slap the shit out of someone. Onslaught was a TERRIBLE story and a terrible idea. It made Xavier into a creepy old pervert man with a thing for 16-year old Jean Grey. Bringing him back would be really, really retarded.

It gets worse. According to the latest Captain America, it's likely that the Red Skull and Dr. Faustus are behind the whole thing, or at least some part of the whole thing.

Le sigh.

And the latest Amazing Spider-Man makes it even more painfully obvious that the series has gone off the rails. Tony Stark is about 2 steps from mustache twirling, and they are making pains to imply that both Stark and Richards are making a killing on no-bid contracts for the Civil War, just like Haliburton. It's a clumsy allegory to real-life events.

I think their plot is more or less unrelated to Civil War.  Faustus even refers to it simply as fortuitous circumstances.

Is it wrong that I find the fan parodies of CW4 better than the real thing?

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/rage/index1.htm or
http://www.spacklecube.com/civilwar4/

No, after all, they are written better.

Between this Civil War stuff I've been reading about, and bits and pieces of X-Men when I'm bored (Recently read Dark Genesis or whatever it was), it seems like Marvel is hellbent on turning all of their old and/or iconic characters into total raging assholes.  Xavier doing all sorts of shady mindwipe stuff, Reed and Stark in Civil War, etc.  And even when not totally altering characterization, they seem hellbent on pointlessly mucking around with continuity.  There are way too many shitty ideas that aren't getting shot down like they should.  I'm glad I got out of regularly buying comics when I did. 

So besides Runaways and Nextwave, is anything that Marvel's putting out worth actually spending money on?

Believe it or not, the last 3 or 4 issues of X-Men have been quite good. Though I hated the Deadly Genesis storyline, the Ed Brubaker run of Uncanny X-Men is dealing with the aftermath of this story and it's quite good. The Adjectiveless X-Men book is also putting together a decent story, even though it included Sabretooth (who has been overexposed almost as much as Wolverine) and Cable. Astonishing X-Men is good, though it's suffered a lot recently from just being extended out too long. Most of that is because the book is bi-monthly and with Whedon's normal slow pacing, it's hard to keep up with. Get it in a trade paperback.

X-Factor is also quite good, being written by Peter David. Daredevil would be good, if it weren't for the fact that it's a continuation of a 5-year old story started by Bendis.

In addition to Haem's suggestions I'd suggest giving Brubaker's Captain America book a try.  Brubaker's new crime book Criminal, and Brian K. Vaughan's Dr. Strange mini come out tomorrow, and the Ares TPB releases the week following.  Some people would also probably recommend Ultimates despite the constant scheduling problems (and the creative team is due to change shortly).

Damn, I forgot the Captain America book. If it weren't for the Civil War shit, I'd highly recommend it. But I just know that's going to come along to fuck up the story soon.

Whats the one with Layla Miller ( she knows things! ) in it? That doesnt completely suck. Apart from that and the two books Mazakiel already mentioned, almost all my Marvel stuff comes from the Ultimate line which can all be picked up in oversized hardcover, a huge selling point for me.

That would be X-Factor.

Awesome, thanks for the info. 

Civil War Frontline 7:  My god, you mean releasing villains like the Green Goblin might backfire on the Pro-Registration side?!?  What an amazing twist!

I swear the longer the Civil War series of books go on, the more like mustache-twirling villains guys appear. Jenkins is a better writer than this (ok, sometimes). The more I looked at the exchange between shadowy figure #00982818373 and Norman Obsorn, I kept thinking it was Reed Richards (though it could just as easily be Hank Pym since he is nucking futz). I also kept thinking of bad piano music and a busty female superheroine tied down to train tracks.

It needs to end soon.

Marvel have totally lost the plot anyway.

I read The Other today.  It was awful.

Issue 5 came out yesterday.  It was fairly inoffensive, but maybe that's just because very, very little actually happened.  Spidey leaves the pro-reg side, escapes from Iron Man and S.H.I.E.L.D, gets beat up by two of the new Thunderbolts who promptly get shot by Punisher who wants to help Cap's side.  Cap tries to decide if he wants Punisher's help.  That's about it.

The first book of the new Punisher series (War Journal v2) was actually pretty good.  Then again, Punisher is one of my favorite marvel heroes, so maybe that helps.  Still, was pretty good, even if they made the funny inner monologe jokes a bit more wacky than he usually has.  He shoots Stiltman in the crotch with an RPG, then executes him.  Hard not to like.

Anybody else reading the Punisher: Max line?  Really like that series, and would be one of the other suggestions I would throw out for good marvel books.


On the whole, I agree with what you guys are saying about civil war now.  The idea had alot of potential, but they`ve pretty well fucked it up.  Its like they dont really have any direction with the story now.  I can see how Tony Stark and others could be convinced to go to pro registration, since in all real world respects, what they are currently doing would NEVER be allowed without government control.  But the characterization has been horrible, and they havent convincingly showed why they feel so strongly about registration now.  They just sort of do, and are now acting like facist for no apparent reason.  Wasted oportunity on the whole.

Part of my problem with the story is the fact that it has always been a little silly that heroes are more or less allowed to dispense justice on the streets as they see fit.  It's just one of those things we accept about Marvel and DC comics.  You accept that those worlds aren't realistic and proceed to enjoy the stories.  For Marvel, after decades of publishing comics, to all of a sudden shine the spotlight on something that we've intentionally ignored for years is just stupid.   To accept that heroes weren't really being regulated by the government for the most part is just a standard of the genre.  To accept a story about the government just now deciding to enact registration and regulation of superpowers, some 60 years after Captain America, the original Human Torch, and Namor first operated just seems like complete bullshit.

Thats a good point and I agree with you overall that its something you just sort of accept.  But it is something I feel you could work into the universe since they are trying to make things a little more realistic on the political/government side of things in the MU than they did back in the 60`s, heh.  As I said though, they screwed up actually implimenting the whole idea, so moot point anyways now I guess.
Despite the horrible delays, I would recommend Ultimates heavily as well.  The whole series has been great.  Also, the new creative team is going to consist of Jeph Loeb and Joe Madureira, so I`m not really worried about the shift (looking forward to it actually).

It's something that could work, but it would be hard.  What if DC did a Superman story where someone just recognizes that Clark Kent is Superman with glasses on?  Sure it would be "realisitic" but we've already had to accept throughout the history of the character that people just don't seem to make the connection.  What if Marvel did a story where a villain succeeds in destroying the Earth because he carries out his plan somewhere other than New York City, where all the fucking heroes are, and for once nobody just happens to stumble across his plan either?  It would be "realistic" that out of the thousands of world destroying plans villains have come up with in comics over the years, at least one of them would have succeeded.  It's just not a good idea to mess with the ground rules of a fictional universe with 60+ years of history.

Plus we all know that the Civil War stuff will blow over and in the long run the government isn't going to regulate heroes. What might be cool is if they did for a substantial period of time, like 5 real-life years, before it finally blew over. No chance of that happening though.

This Civil War sort of reminds me of Damage Control, except DC was supposed to be a joke.

The new Frontline keeps hinting more and more that the whole reason for the Civil War was about money. If that's what they ultimately make this monstrosity about, it will just kill what little validity the story has. I mean, I'm all for a bit of realism in my comics, but something about this whole thing is just not clicking. It's as if they have thrown every single thing about the way the universe works (including the way characters have thought for decades) out the window. Spider-Man would never have revealed his identity, especially not with a famous wife to protect. He'd already seen the consequences of villains knowing his identity (Gwen Stacy, the whole Clone saga bullshit).

It looks like what they've been trying to accomplish is 1) out Spider-man to get mainstream buzz, 2) make Iron Man Director of Shield, 3) add another Avengers book done by Bendis and 4) be topical with potshots at the stupidity of the current administration. They just happen to have picked the most hamfisted way to do it.

And as a bonus, they've taken Wolverine into obscenely stupid territory (from just regular old stupid territory). In the latest issue, we see all his skin burned off his body just leaving the skeleton. And we are to assume his brain wasn't cooked in the process, what with being trapped in the equivalent of a metal pot. They've taken his regen ability to absurd proportions.

Bone Marrow, dude.  He can totally regrow from bone marrow.

It's so he forgets his origin again.

 :roll:


(Incidentally, if anyone's still reading Ultimate Spider-Man:Clone Sage, please stop before you DAMAGE YOURSELF.)

Hahaha, yeah.  I remember looking at the list of upcomming Ultimate Spiderman issues awhile ago, saw Clone Saga, and screamed.  Why on gods green earth would they even think about trying to redo that thing in any form at all?  Then I figured it was probably just for nostalgia that they used the name, and wouldnt go fucking up shit as bad as the original. 

Stupid me.

Wait, the Ultimates, the whole point of which is to ditch useless shitty continuity, is introducing the clone story? LOL.

My problem with Ultimates is that in 10 years they will be in the same place the regular comics are now, and need another Ulitmates 2 or something.

Wow.

I've been reading this entire thread thinking, "Ok, people here are cynical, I pass that comics store each day, maybe I should check out this Civil War series, it sounds like it may make for a cool Marvel Super Heroes PnP campaign."

I really thought perhaps people were overstating the stupid.

Then I saw this:


Thank you Haem.  Thank you for saving me the money.

I've always been a big fan of Wolverine, but I can't stand what they've done the last few years.  One fucking stupid idea after another.  Though with everything I read of Civil War, it's not a problem limited solely to Wolverine stuff. 

It's even funnier to watch the skin and muscle and such grow back over the metal skeleton. In the current story, he's dropped from the HELICARRIER onto the streets of New York and gotten back up to walk into a building and act all badass, as well as any number of other death situations that his regen ability just magically fixes. It's gotten really retarded.

Yeah, but the mutant nullifier bit was just as stupid.  I would imagine that popping his claws without his mutant healing factor would make a right fucking mess of his entire forearms.

(Thinks back to Hulk vs. Wolverine)

So when we started Hulk was invulnerable and Wolverine had minor healing powers. Then we learned that Hulk was not invulverable but just healed REALLY fast. Then Hulk started healing less fast. Meanwhile Woverine can regenerate his entire body fairly quickly.

Conclusion: Wolverine's powers are actually similar to Rogue's and he stole Hulk's regeneration ability!

For those still reading Civil War, Marvel just pushed back issues 6 and 7 by two weeks (to the 3rd, and 31st of Jan).  According to Marvel, Steve McNiven came down with a case of strep throat.

Everyone in Marvel appears to be getting ill.  Which is fine because the storylines make me nauseous too.

Just read through the Iron Man/Captain America Civil War book and it was probably the best book out of all the Civil War stuff I've read.  I'm not too familiar with Christos N. Gage.  A quick search shows that he's done some writing for TV, but I haven't read any of the comics that he's written.  He did a pretty good job here though of fleshing out both Iron Man and Cap's point of views.  He also shows some of the rougher points of their friendship and how well they know each other's flaws.

Of course in order to make this book work they pretty much had to avoid going into detail on why Tony would clone Thor, and they pretty much leave out anything about having super-villains working for him.  Actually this whole book in a way highlights how stupid that shit is by showing just how much they really didn't need to throw that crap in there to escalate the conflict between Cap's side and Iron Man's side.

In comparison Civil War Frontline #9 was garbage, portraying Cap as being out of touch and suggesting Iron Man's main motivation for backing the registration act was to make money.

Yeah, that book didn't really do a whole lot to make any sense whatsoever, and made the characters seem to go against what the entire rest of the book had been portraying them as. I find it said that they've done 9 of these books and yet can't even get 6 of the regular book out. There's more supplementary material than actual material on this story. I'll have to read the Iron Man/Cap book.

That Casualties of War book? Terrible. Two books within two weeks of each other with a "final" conversation between Iron Man and Cap, neither of them very good. How does editorial just let that shit slip by? How do they approve it? Is there no overriding voice looking at all these crossovers and separate books and slapping the shit out of writers? I can let a few continuity slips go by, but Civil War has just gotten to insane levels of miscoordination. Why does Joe Q. still have a job? Jim Shooter should be storming through the halls beating editors left and right with his cock.

It's approved by the same people who can't get it straight whether or not the negative zone prison is a temporary measure or not.  The same people who have been unable to make a clear, consistant statement on what the Registration act does and doesn't entail, partly because they never bothered to figure that out, and partly so they can do "shocking" plot-twists like "omg backdoor draft for people who registered!".  The same guys who can't even keep their stories straight when it comes to explaining why the books are late.

So Civil War 6 came out.  Due to Diamond having some transportation issues a lot of comic shops on the West Coast didn't get their shipments in, but at least that's one delay that can't be blamed on Marvel.  Speaking of which, why did this book get delayed?  On the writing side things aren't particularly complex.  It's filler and setup for the big fight scene next issue.  Which kind of makes me wonder just what the hell Cap's overall plan is anyway?  Does he hope to overturn U.S. law by beating Iron Man's team and breaking people out of prison?  Wouldn't this kind of behavior more or less turn the public's opinion even more against unregistered superheroes?  There doesn't seem to be any realistic way for Cap to achieve his goals.

Which I guess might be why we need Civil War Frontline (#10 of which also just came out) and its hints that there's some secret reason behind the Registration Act.  Marvel know's there's no logical way to resolve the plotline by just having the heroes fight each other, and they know people are buying the main Civil War book just to see heroes fight each other.  So while Cap and Iron Man are pointlessly beating the shit out of each other in the final issue of Civil War, which can't possibly resolve anything, I imagine the real wrap up to the storyline will be in Frontline when this dark secret about the Registration Act comes to light and changes public opinion.  Things probably won't go completely back to normal but of course Marvel will have all sorts of one-shots and minis to deal with the fallout.  Those are my predictions anyway.

Not sure how they're gonna cover the identity issues. Some people like Spidey doesn't have a mask to hide behind any more. To the average person, that's not a big deal but to supervillains, pete's gonna really get paranoid without Stark security acting as body guard for his family. He can't even get his job back at Daily Bugle lol.

Surprising nobody, Civil War #7 has been delayed until February 21st.  Marvel hasn't yet said if this will cause any other books to be delayed.

Frontline was worse than the regular Civil War book. Everything is setting up for Tony Stark to be the big bad guy, which really cheapens the whole idea. PENANCE? So Speedball becomes a walking BDSM cliche?

Bleh.

SPOILER

Soooo... Hulkling, who is part Skrull, can shapeshift to replicate retina and voice patterns?  Wouldn't that mean that all Skrulls could do that?  Wouldn't that mean that relying on those forms of identification would be kind of silly, given all the past encounters with Skrulls?

I would've bought it had it actually been Mystique, saying that her mastery of shapeshifting is just that much more refined and just about no other shapeshifter could pull off such a complete transformation, but if a half-skrull could do it, that's a whole enemy alien race practically being handed the keys to TOP SECRET GOVERNMENT FACILITY OMG.

I actually would've bought it more had Pym actually just switched sides.  He certainly seemed to be leaning that way with the whole thorbot incident, in his conversation with parker.

Didn't we see Pym/Hulkling working on Thorbot's brain earlier in the issue?

Yeah, it's a clusterfuck of a continuity snafu.

Is Hulkling the son of the Super-Skrull?  If so, maybe his powers are more refined.  I don't know much about the Young Avengers though, so take my memory with a grain of salt.

Not that it still isn't silly.

He's the son of Super-Skrull and a human woman, I think. But he's a teenager, so expecting his powers to be that refined is probably a bit much.

Is it bad that I find the parodies more entertaining than the real thing?

http://mightygodking.livejournal.com/291556.html

Nothing wrong with that.  I haven't even read any civil war stuff, other then this thread, and I gotta say that parody was fucking hilarious.

"you're staring at my groin" 

No.  That's fucking hilarious.

SomethingAwful did summat similar at one point.  The only thing Civil War is good for is parody.

Le art.

Finally a justification for the Civil war stuff. They should fire the writers and print this instead.

That shit was pretty damn funny.

By the way, Marvel recently announced that they've added an epilogue issue for Civil War (called "the Confession" I think).  Haemish in particular might be excited to know that apparently it features... another talk between Iron Man and Captain America.

I weep for Marvel Comics. Is this the conversation where they take all the pent up aggression and asspound each other while Harry Potter watches? Fuck. Nothing good can come of this series.

Well, I have to give the Fantastic Four writer credit. This week, he explored why Reed is acting how he is, and gave a halfway plausible and in-character reason for his actions.

Yeah, Reed Richards is Hari Seldon.  Who knew.

But yeah, I actually can accept that as an explination for his wierd actions, since I can imagine the uber genius side of him deciding thats the way to go given what he knows.

I haven't read it yet, but I heard that Dwayne McDuffie (creator of Static Shock) took over writing Fantastic Four starting with this issue (which was planned, although the issue was solicited as being written by JMS).

Reed fucks robots ?

He might as well, after this last issue, Sue's not going to touch him with someone else's vagina. As for his entire reason for following along this path, it only works if you take the interpretation of his character that says he's the guy who stole a spaceship to test a theory. It completely ignores all the rest of his life after that mistake, his entire use of power responsibly since then.

I'd say he's frantically trying to do the most responsible thing he can see.  That's why he kidnapped the Thinker to check his math, hoping he was wrong.  But if he's figured it out to the point that he knows he's not wrong about this, which it seems he has, responsibility suddenly turns from blind optimism to damage control.

Well, the Scarlet Witch did make that sort of thing acceptable in the MU.

And Red Tornado made it alright in DCU.

Personally, I think we need to amend the constitution to ban that.  It was Adam and Eve, not Adam and TV.

I bet you don't approve of cylon-human relations either.  :cry:

Civil War: The Return came out. The Sentry story was useless, and the return of MAR-VELL was silly. They pulled an Hourman. They made Mar-vell warden of the Negative Zone prison. I just don't see how it could be any more stupid.

Isn't Mar-vell a cosmic level hero?  And taking orders from the US government now?  Huh?

Yeah, it's like that. He's taking orders because he's friends with the Sentry (in that pocket universe where the Sentry didn't wipe everyone's memories of him).

I'll take continuity punches over this shit any day.

Maybe I"m wrong, but I've always been under the impression that Captain Marvel's original series wasn't particularly a huge seller.  The only story he appeared in that people have any memory of was the one where he died, which was published all the way back in 1982.  So who is his return supposed to appeal to?  His small fanbase who fondly remembers his adventures from over 25 years ago?  For a company who doesn't seem to care much for continuity these days, why create a new Captain Marvel series that is apparently building directly off of a story that was published a quarter-century ago with only this cheesy, filler one-shot as build up?

I've come to the conclusion that a lot of these writers today loved these characters as kids, just like I did. And just like I did (and do), they wanted to write these characters. But unfortunately, many of these characters were dead or unusable. Editorial should have been the ones to say, "No, you can't use Captain Marvel." Or at least, "You can't use him unless you come up with something better than this shit."

Editorial is culprit at Marvel. There's just such a lack of control over really bad ideas and bad execution of good ideas that every shittastic story is greenlit.

The other thing I don't get is that Marvel has a big cosmic crossover story going on, but they choose to bring back Captain Marvel in a Civil War tie-in (with the explanation that he's "off-screen" for pretty much the entire Civil War)?  Not only that, but since Captain Marvel #1 hasn't been solicited yet, that means it's at least three months off.  Hell, they haven't even announced a creative team yet, though given Starlin's abrupt departure from the Thanos series a few years back I'm guessing he won't be coming back to the character.  Why make a big deal about his return, and then let momentum die off by launching his book months later?

I think Starlin has pretty much written off working for Marvel ever again. I could be wrong about that.

I hate you for that avatar, Velorath.

You have a problem with the Pale Man?

He eats babies.

How was Pan's Labyrinth?

I don't want to oversell it, but it's pretty damn good, and very brutal.

Edit:  It's a shame more of the f13ers don't live near the Bay Area.  I'd be willing to have a movie night once a week or so given that I can get 3 people in with me for free every time I see a movie.

I will oversell it (but im drunk) it was fucking awesome.  The visuals were fucking fantastic and a great fantasy story to boot.  Damn glad I saw it and would go see it again for sure, wonder if its as good when not stoned though.  Some very unexpected brutal imagery in that one so be wary of that :p   Still highly recommended if you don't mind the reading. 

I highly recommend it for anyone who likes grim fairy tales or dark fantasy of any sort.  And if you don't like either of those things, you still might like it.

Spoiler Warning for final issue:










Final issue of Civil War is out.  Black Panther reroutes the Negative Zone portal to it's other entrance near the Baxter Building and Cloak teleports everyone through.  Lots of fighting (Thor Clone destoryed).  Then Cap gives up when he sees the damage being caused.  Tony Stark becomes head of S.H.I.E.L.D., heroes offered amnesty, Cap in jail, Sue returns home.

Seriously, did Cap not realize when he was making his plans that a dragging a massive superhero battle into the middle of New York might not be a great idea?  If his side had won the fight did he for some reason think that it would change U.S. law?  This series made no sense, and we've still got an issue or two of Frontline left.

Edit:  Spoiler warning for the one or two people who might care if this gets spoiled for them.

I may be repetative in asking -- Huh?

Yeah. Have to agree.

Sudden change of heart was stupid.

And that parody posted for the last issue with the final panel saying "And now for a massive superhero battle that I'm absolutely sure will resolve everything and fix all the problems!" really nailed it.

SPOILERS!






This issue was shitty shit shit shit.

Sue goes back to Reed just because he blubbers? Captain America, the ultimate tactician doesn't realize shunting the big superhero fight to the middle of fucking New York is going to cause civilian casualities? Everything's ok because Tony Stark is in charge of keeping people's identities secret, despite his obvious callous disregard for their identities and feelings when he send cape killers and known homicidial manica villains after his own friends? Will his amensty include any future acts of unregistered superheroics, or just the past? Captain America's in FUCKING JAIL? Did I open a copy of Bendis' last issues of Daredevil by mistake?

And if you haven't read New Avengers: Illuminati #2, be prepared to vomit. Reed Richards decides to gather all 6 of the Inifity Gems together into the Infinity Gauntlet so no one else can get it.

When did it become OK to completely ignore all past continuity with a character to tell a mediocre story?

I read Illuminati 2.

I thought the Infinity Watch had the gems.

That was, like, the whole point of them, wasn't it?

What happened to that?

I'm going to give this another shot. I stopped reading last time around when the Thunderbolts came in.

Lol. I don't know a lot about Deadpool, but he's funny. Is he like the Marvel character without a 4th wall or what?

Basically, he's saying that Civil War sucks and will fuck up Spider-Man's continuity for years to come.

So, lets sum up the whole of civil war shall we. Maybe we could do it in 30 seconds

http://the-isb.blogspot.com/2007/02/civil-war-in-30-seconds.html


I forgot about the pym particles :)

Ummm...

Captain Marvel was the half-kree dude that somehow swapped powers (while dieing) to Ms. Marvel,  who then got her powers absorbed by Rogue, right?

They need Silver Surfer to get a series so they have a place to ditch the cosmic level people.  And because I might actually start buying a comic again if the Silver Surfer had his own.

Never was 32 pages of someone depressed and brooding about their god-like power so much fun....

Yeah, Deadpool is one of the best things Marvel has going for it.  He's a Liefeld creation, but Nicieza really took him and made him worthwhile.  He does regularly break the 4th wall, which only he seems to be allowed to do.  Any Deadpool stuff written by Nicieza or Gail Simone is worth reading.  Also, if you can find Gail Simone's Deadpool run, see if you can pick up her run on Agent X, which picks up where Deadpool left off.

In one Simone issue, Deadpool is hired to cut off the Rhino's horn by an old man looking for a little potency.  The Rhino proceeds to kick Deadpool's ass until DP runs into the local MercWerks (the gym where all villains go to work out) and frantically rummages through the various hero accessories they've collected over time (thinking "Heroes always win, right?").  He sprays the Rhino with Antman's spray, shrinking him dramatically.  He then saws off the horn and keeps the mini-rhino for himself as a keychain.

At some point later, the Rhino unshrunk himself.  In a recent issue, written by Nicieza maybe 5 years after the aforementioned issue, Deadpool sees the Rhino on TV and says, "Hey, that's my old keychain!"  I almost didn't catch the reference.

Johhny: There is a new Silver Surfer series (just titled "Silver Surfer). Well, not new exactly. Probably like two years old by now. Not as "poetic" as the older stuff, but what I've read is alright. Good artwork too.

Another Civil War sucks post. Bah. It's been said too much.

Deadpool was right though. It sucks.


So....

Besides the Ultimates, are there any other alternate Marvel universes? Because they've pretty much fucked this one up for good. And the Ultimates as well.

Well, the regular X-Men books have been living in what could be described as an alternate universe, even though they are actually in the Marvel Universe. It's just that they've ignored pretty much all the Civil War shit completely.

So, quick summary of Civil War Frontline 11:

Ulrich and Sally go to interview Cap and then Iron Man.

Paraphrasing Sally's conversation with Cap: "You don't know what myspace or youtube is, and you don't know who won last seasons American Idol.  You're so out of touch with America, how dare you cause property damage that tax dollars will have to pay for?  How come you didn't realize in issue 1 that Marvel's writers were just making you fight other heroes without ever giving you a plan to actually accomplish your goals, so they could portray you as an out of touch bully by the series' end?" (Note:  The actual rant is much longer and more painful to read than this, but I'm keeping it short for my own sanity).

Sally to Iron Man; "I know you're secretly the "traitor" and you used Norman Osborne to attack the Atlanteans in an attempt to increase the chances of a war with Atlantis, thus causing more super heroes to register to defend their country.  I just want to thank you for all your evil behavoir that could easily cause 1000 times more distruction than anything Cap did throughout this mini because I know you had the American peoples' best interests at heart.  Your secret is safe with us Tony!  :heart: :heart: :heart:"

If I had actually bought this issue, I'd being sending a piss soaked copy of it back to Marvel's office right now.

Ordinarily I'd just say "Fuck it, most of Marvel's crossovers are this bad.  I'll just ignore it and move on.", but I can see that Brubaker's work on Cap's book is going to keep getting dragged down by this shit.  Bru's stories don't move forward at the fastest pace at it is.  Dealing with Civil War related shit has made the main story slow down to a fucking crawl, and now Brubaker is going to have to figure out a way to get another one of his characters out of jail.

Sally's the brunette reporter chick, right?

I was reading some issues where she was literally on a crusade against the Registration Act, and on the Cap's side. Then all of the sudden, some Senator, whom she hated, somehow convinces her to change her mind. From there on out, the "rebels" had no one in the media to speak for them -- and it never really explained why she went 180 so quickly.

Later on after that, I ran into another issue where she just took a big dump on Captain America's face. He wasn't worth an interview anymore to her, and wouldn't even let him speak.

Then... Her and Ben get all giddy about discovering the "truth" about Stark. But now his secret is safe with them?

Weird.


Also, there was a Cap/Iron-Man issue where both of them had a secret talk. Iron Man's reasoning, in that issue at least, was much more personal and about ideals -- and about salvaging whatever good he could from Registration -- since it was going to happen anyways. He told the Captain that he almost killed innocents himself once, that the New Warriors incident could have been his own, and that he saw the wisdom of keeping people like him (i.e heroes) accountable for their actions. Then he went on to tell the Cap that he's fighting the Government just like Captain America is -- but he just knew one part of the battle was already lost. He was trying to convince the Captain one last time to help him salvage whatever good they could from the situation -- but wishing for no Registration at all was pointless.

It was the one issue where I was sympathetic to Stark. It made complete sense, and fit everything I knew about Tony Stark from the past.


But now, somehow, he's really just Haliburton, and all that shit about accountability and being a reckless and drunken superhero was bullshit? Wtf?

Too many cooks involved in making Civil War and they seemed to pick the wrong one to write the main series.  Millar seemed to have little interest in the political aspect of the story (http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CivilWar/millar_final.html).



All I can say about Frontline and Jenkins, is that most of his recent work has been shit.  It's a shame because he's done some good stuff in the past.  I don't know what it is about this Marvel in-crowd group-think, but it's drained formerly talented creators like Bendis, Jenkins, and Brevoort, and Millar to an extent, of all their talent.

So the only reason the writer wrote what he did is because he wanted a big super-hero beat off fight scene?

WHAT... THE... FUCK?

Does no one understand just how badly this has fucked the Marvel Universe? Does no one in editorial care that all the writers from here for the next decade are going to have to perform serious gymnastics to work around this giant hole of shit that Civil War is?

I read Frontline, and holy shit it was awful. Sally suddenly becomes a fascist lover? WHAT? Urich and her make their own little blog site? WHAT WHAT? Cap is now in jail and Sally tells him because he's out of touch with fads like MySpace and American Idol that he's suddenly a bad hero and should go sit in a corner?

WHAT... THE... FUCK?

And the Stark thing. That's retarded. It made more sense that he'd do the whole thing for money or to take over S.H.I.E.L.D. than for him to try to start a war with the Atlanteans. The war with the Atlanteans wasn't even a major part of the regular series. It was a footnote. No one was shown to be suddenly for registration in order to fight the greater threat. Fuck, the damn Inhuman war in Silent War has had more made of it than the Atlantean war. I swear, it's like no one was even TRYING to write a good set of stories, or even one good story.

If they just wanted a big superhero punchout, do a new Secret War or fucking Contest of Champions. Don't soil the Marvel Universe with this shit.

Brubaker's going to have a helluva time with Cap in jail. Way to torpedo 2 good years of stories.

Reading that interview is like a University Class on Self-Delusion.

They have fucking delusions of adequacy over there.






What ?

It "was a joke".  Yeah, right.  The only pedo is the one who gets off to his 10-year old self...

Wow, by now I would almost be willing to pay money for NOT having to read Civil War.

Yeah, I always include my jokes in parenthesis as a side thought with no sense of irony or humor (which is weird because Mark Millar is a douchebag) so I can see how it was a joke.

Hey, only people who are up to date on the latest in pop culture get to be involved in politics.  Everyone else just needs to shut the fuck up apparently.

If I had known it was going to end that way (which, I suspect, the writers did) I would've made the focus of the story less about political ideals and more focused on questioning the pros and cons of Utilitarianism.  Cause that's sort of where they ended up, but without any intent to do so.

Dear god, what a horrible series.  It went from going downhill fast to falling off a cliff.  I pretty much agree with all the shit everybody has said so far.  Continuity was HORRIBLE.  Writting was bad.  Story got bogged down and really started to not make any sense.  And now this ending, which totally and completly sucked.  Caps actions make no fucking sense what so ever.  Amazing that he comes to this realization just then after all this time.  I was pretty damn suprised though how suddenly pro-registration the writers went at the end.  I figured after the reporter (stupidy) damned Captain America (for many stupid fucking reasons), they would then go to Tony and do the same thing, ending the series with a "they were both wrong/missguided" sort of ended.  Instead, the reporters walk right in and proceed to suck Tonys cock so much that they should have catigorized that issue as Hentai.  Christ, they name off everything bad he did, and say it was all worthwhile and good.  After damning Cap for following the American ideal.

...........

Jesus christ, fucking horrible.  Im not going to touch any more main universe marvel stuff again (or at least for awhile).  Ultimate Universe has been good so far, but they are fucking it up now as well (Spiderman: Clone Saga.  You fucking dipshits.  Charles Xavier wants to bone Jean Grey, and now is dead......).  Ultimates is still great, but of course its taken them about 2 years to do twelve issues now (And Millar promised at Comicon last summer that he would finish Ultimates V.2 by the end of the year, or everybody in the room could punch him in the nut sack if he didn't......)

Guess its time to go back on a DC kick, or other random universes.  I just read the whole Planetary series by Warren Ellis, and that was pretty damn good.  Any other random non Marvel universes anybody can recommend?

 :rimshot:



Ellis is writing NewUniversal for Marvel.  It's still coming out.  That's a separate universe.

There's also the Cthulhu books that Boom! Comics is putting out, but I've read two of the "collection" books (lots of 4 or 5 page stories based on cthulhu stuff) and they've mostly just been okay.

You should still read Cable And Deadpool.
You should still read Runaways.
You should maybe read Thunderbolts- this definitely does have to do with Civil War, but it's been decent so far.  1st issue was slow, 2nd issue was quite good.
Daredevil is largely untouched by Civil War.
Iron Fist is largely untouched by Civil War.
Moon Knight is CURRENTLY largley untouched by Civil War, but I believe that will change soon.

Pick up the new Justice Society of America that DC's putting out, it's good so far.

PLANET HULK  :hulk_rock:

What is that, the fourth time I've brought that up in this thread now?  :-P

He's also untouched by Civil War. For now. Last I checked at least.


[EDIT]

Well, I just read that after they wrap that series up, Marvel plans on bringing the Hulk back to Earth in a new event (dubbed "World War Hulk").

Considering that it was Richards and Stark that fucked him over to begin with, it'd be fitting if it turns out to be him that puts an end to all of this Civil War shit (and hopefully, kills Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic in the process).

Yes, but he's coming back to Earth for Marvel's next big event World War Hulk.  That's the event they should have gotten Millar to write since that's the one that should just be a superhero slugfest.  I always find these trailers for comic books a little hokey, but here you go (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=103412).

Yeah, just edited that in right before you posted.

...

Hmm....To be honest, that trailer got me psyched. Heh.

Lame narrator though.

As long as you're here Stray, this looked like something you might be interested in (http://www.dcbservice.com/product.aspx?id=5h&h=s&b=73#176244).

As if I bother to do fancy things like spell check (You bastards need to add in a spell checker to the forums so people too lazy to cut and paste look smarter).  And it wasn't that sort of writing I was talking about :wink:.

I've read a good amount of the Cable and Deadpool stuff.  I like it, and it is hilarious, but the writter gets a little to damn preachy for me sometimes.  But I agree, its good.

I actually just finished download a torrent of all the Runaway comics, so I guess I will have a peak ;).

Never really gave a damn about Daredevil, Iron Fist, or Moonknight (Marvel batman rippoff kind of?).

Never really read any hulk stuff, so I guess I can give it a look as well, thanks.

Do you know if that's in color? I have a compilation that covers those issues, but it's only in black and white.  :|

Restored and recolored according to the Amazon listing (http://www.amazon.com/Silver-Surfer-Omnibus-HC-Variant/dp/0785127534/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-8774055-3708053?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1172985632&sr=8-1).  On the one hand you could wait until it comes out and try to find a review just incase they fucked up the coloring.  On the other hand deals like DCBS's 50% only tend to be for pre-orders, and paying $37.50 is a lot better than paying $75 even if the coloring does end up a little off.

Cool then, I'm sure the color will be fine (just as long as it is color!). Thanks for pointing that out.

There.... is one.  Right next to the Post button is the Preview button.  Next to that is the Spell Check button.


Not really.  Moonknight has very little to do with Batman.  It's more supernaturally based with the God of Vengeance whispering in his ear and all.

Jesus, I need to stop posting.  In my defense, all the other forums I use put it in the upper option bar, and for some reason I apparently never EVER looked very closely at at the bottom.


On Moonknight, I just got the Batman vibe because he seems to be a hero thats uber rich and who's special ability is that hes good with martial arts.  And he throws moonerang things  :wink:.  Never actually really read much of it, so I dont know anything about the character really.

Just out of curiosity, what makes everyone here (if this is indeed true) care so much more about Marvel than DC?  The "52" thread is a lot shorter than this.  I've read ONE thing in the Marvel Universe (Marvel Zombies) that I would rather read than almost anything in the D.C. universe.  Maybe I just grew up on more of a diet of Batman and Superman, etc., but what it is for you guys?

I like Batman, Judge Dredd, the Flash....

Especially Vertigo stuff...

But Marvel, as a whole, had a more interesting take on things to me (HAD, that is). I might just give DC more time now.

Starting from the top: Stan Lee. That's why I liked Marvel. Instead of just writing basic super crime fighter stories, he made superheroes a little more human than that. Many Marvel characters aren't even in it for just crime fighting.

For example, the X-Men and Mutant thing was reflective of the prejudice and racism America was going through in the 60's. And Magneto was the Malcolm X to Professor X's Martin Luther King. One the militant, and the other the pacifist who wanted to coexist with humans. X-Men wasn't about crimefighting so much as it was about staving off persectution, and trying to prove to the world that they were a force of good.

Marvel had a lot more anti-heroes too:

Spider-Man was a complete loser in real life. And as a hero, he was like Rodney Dangerfield -- He got no respect. No matter what good he did, people considered him a villain (mostly due to Jameson's antics, of course). And other heroes didn't care about him much either. 1) Because he was a kid, and 2) because they thought his costume was homemade.

Silver Surfer encounted some of the same problems of rejection, but in a different way.

The Hulk is the classic Wolf Man story to me. And his power is RAGE. And by most accounts, he wasn't really a good guy at all.

The other thing I should touch on is that so many of Stan's heroes are heroes because of some dysfunction, or are only heroes by accident. Like the aforementioned mutants. For all intents and purposes, mutants are retards and freaks. The world doesn't like them. They are not to be admired.

Hulk can only be considered good just because bad guys happen to do things that piss him off more often. Not because he's trying to be a hero or anything.

Spider-Man almost does it out of obligation. I mean, he's a good kid and all -- But he deals with so much shit, it makes him want to quit sometimes. But he has that directive in himself: With great power comes great responsibility. He'll deal with the bullshit, being Spider-Man is not a choice.

Iron Man only made the suit because his physical body was screwed up.

Daredevil might be the only superhero who's power is actually a handicap: Blindness.

I see what you are saying about Marvel, I never really thought about it that way but you have a good point.  The only thing I'd bring up is that the X-Men "persecution" thing doesn't really work in a combined Marvel universe.  It made sense in the movies (where the existence of the larger superhero pantheon was implicitly denied) and the early comics (before "combined" universes became common).  But how can the mutants really make the discrimination claim today when there are assloads of mystic/toxic accident/cybernetic superheroes?  People don't go around spitting and throwing things on Cap. America (well, at least before the recent unpleasantness), why should they single mutants out?

Um.  Because.

That's what the story is about.  It's about Mutant discrimination because it's a different thing to have 'superheroes' that are unique and creations and accidents.  But the mutants are the next evolutionary step that are going to REPLACE humankind.  They are, quite literally, Homo Superior.

And Homo Sapien is screwed.  This is the fundamental fight of X-men.


Of course, if you take that view of it, you realise that it doesn't actually matter what discrimination they go through - they're going to win...

I guess...if you are a nobody and are really peeved about mutant superiority in that universe, I guess you just go jump in a pool of toxic waste or something.   :-P

Marvel's event books (House of M, Civil War) are train wrecks right now, and there's nothing like a good train wreck to generate discussion.  SWG has had long discussions here, and Vanguard had about four threads running at once, but that doesn't mean that those are the favored MMO's here.

Also worth noting in the mutant hatred thing is that many, many mutants' first experience with their powers is a violent one.  Mutants ARE dangerous, most of them don't have the sort of control that you see with the X-Men.  They've received huge amounts of training.

There's an Ultimate X-Men book, for instance, with a young kid manifesting his mutant powers for the first time.  He emits a death aura that disintegrates anyone who comes within.. I think it was about a hundred yards.  He goes downstairs in the morning and his mom and dad aren't there.  Thinking they just left for work early, he goes to school.  Eventually he figures it out and isolates himself in the wilderness, where Wolverine is able to track him down (healing makes you invulnerable to disintegration I guess- whatever, not the point of the story) and talk with him.  He helps the kid commit suicide.

Dozens of people died one day just cause one kid woke up with mutant powers.  If mutants were real and I was a regular person, I'd be damn scared of them, too, and I'd probably support any government attempt to find a vaccine preventing people from becoming mutants.

Those sorts of things resonate with me realistically.  And that's where DC falls short with me.  It's not as realistic.  Let's compare, for instance, the Runaways and the Teen Titans.  The Runaways are a group of kids who fell into superpowers.  They're in hiding, try mostly to keep to themselves, and all the other heroes would, upon finding them, most likely turn them in to child protective services.  The Teen Titans, for some reason, are supported by the rest of the hero community even though they encourage a very dangerous style of life on a very impressionable audience, I'm not really sure where they get all the money they seem to have, and they operate openly in the public eye while the government and the average housewife with too much time and a lot of blank protest signs have nothing to say about it.

That just doesn't ring true to me.

Regarding rich superheroes:
Batman, Moonknight, Green Arrow, Blue Beetle, Iron Fist.  That's off the top of my head.  They're probably all Batman rip-offs, but at this point it's not really worth mentioning.  About as notable as a hero who can fly, has super-strength, and is invulnerable to gunfire.

The Shadow pre-dated Batman.

Yup, forgot about him.  Good call.

Hell, I'll bet if you looked hard you could trace it back to folklore.

The Count of Monte Cristo predated Batman ;).

You total bastard, I was just about to post this.

However, you read it entirely wrong.  :P

Wolverine is SENT by Prof X.  This story, this single issue, is the most powerful story I've ever read involving Wolverine (who is a joke of a charactiture at this point).  It's a that's about how Mutants and Homo-Sapiens just can't get along due to the nature of mutation and the fact that even mutant and mutant can't get along either.  The Prof says to Wolverine 'Go Sort This Out' knowing, as they both do, that when you send Logan to go sort summat out, there's really only one way it ends.  This poor wee chap (who, I think burned off fat deposits or some such shit) is totally fucking traumatised that he's just killed everyone he ever knew and that yesterday he was a succesful young lad and today he's an evil, evil, evil freak of nature.  He no more 'commits suicide' than my Gran.  He makes an impassioned speech about how unfair it all is and how he doesn't want to die.

Logan doesn't give him a choice.

This story is also interesting in that it reverses usual roles.  I put it to you that Magneto would not have killed this guy, but would have taken every opportunity to help him.

Ah, I could talk about that story all day.

It has been a while, but I do remember the speech.  It sounded, to me, more like a someone who just developed a terminal disease.

Yeah, he didn't want to die, but he realized there was really no choice and didn't fight it.

But either way, good story.

52 doesn't suck, and therefore there's less to bitch about. We always tend to write more about shit that really deserves derision. Civil War was just damned awful.

I can understand it not ringing true to you, but the DC Universe lately has really tried to establish not a "realistic" approach, but at least a logically consistent one. The world accepts superheroes in the DC Universe, though with some trepidation at times. Hell, in the DC Universe, religions pop up around particular superheroes constantly. With such support comes a bit more tolerance for really crazy shit, like a pre-pubescent teen being dressed up in tights and a cape and made to beat up people on the streets. No, the DC Universe isn't "realistic" but it is internally consistent. It's a different approach to Runaways but Titans is a good book even with such an approach.

The DC Universe has always taken the more mythical, archetypal approach to the stories, whereas the Marvel Universe is more naturalistic. Or it was until they went into cuckoo lala Civil War land where nothing makes sense except the sales figures.

Actually, just to correct, prof X didn't send Logan in to kill him, it was Nick Fury.  They kept it secret from the prof, who would have been against killing him as well.  Nick knew that it would be disastrous to human/mutant relations if anybody ever found out it was a mutant that just wiped out a small town, so he asked Logan secretly to go in and kill him, since Logan could regenerate faster than he could be disintegrated.  Also because he probably knew Logan was the only one that would fully understand the situation and be counted on to do such a harsh thing.

Are you sure ?  Damn, did I read that wrong.

Though that's certainly consistant with Ultimate Nick Fury.  He's just a little mental.

To be clear, I do like DC.  I'm not knocking them.  But their universe doesn't feel like our universe, and so I'm less passionate about the stories.  They're still good stories, but the whole universe just feels so alien to me I don't feel comfortable talking about it too much.  Cause I just feel like I don't really know what I'm talking about.

With Marvel, I feel like I know the universe and am qualified to have an opinion.

Actually, as I recall, they don't actually reveal who sent wolverine at all in that comic, just showing what happened.  It was in later issues that Wolverine brings it up in front of Fury when they are mad at each other.  But yeah, it was Fury, and they kept it secret from Xavier.

One would think that spending five days answering readers questions about Civil War (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=103725) might get Marvel thinking that maybe the storytelling in this event wasn't as clear or as organized as it could have been since there are some very basic plot points that required Brevoort to do some fairly creative explanation.  Such as:


However, repeated attempts at trying to justify nonsensical plot points weren't the main thing Brevoort said to piss me off.  What I really objected to was this gem from the third day of questioning:


See, one of the components of the 90's crash was Marvel flooding the shelves with new series.  It proved to be pretty unhealthy for the industry, especially due to the fact that the average comic shop doesn't have a hell of a lot of space to display product.  So one can understand that as a comic fan, I might be a little upset to hear the because DC has the nerve to still have some top selling products, Marvel is going to flood the shelves with their shit until that little situation is rectified.

Yes, Marvel is a business and chasing after money is obviously important to them.  The problem is what the does to the Independent books that have to get dropped by store owners to make room for more Marvel product.  Independent stuff is where guys like Bendis and Brubaker get their start until they get recognized enough to make it into the comic industry in-crowd.  Drown this stuff out of the market and Marvel fucks over the industry as a whole just so they can get gain some market share back from DC.

Variant covers on a shitload of books, a never-ending parade of "Event" books, flooding the market with low quality work, egotistical talent, clones... fuck the 90's was just last decade.  There's no excuse for forgetting the lessons learned that fucking quickly.  This isn't ancient history were talking about, it's 10 fucking years ago.

Did this just happen outside of the Civil War series?

http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/books/03/07/captain.america/index.html (CAPTAIN AMERICA SPOILER) I thought earlier in the thread people were saying "imprisoned"...

Indeed.  Since I don't give a fuck about spoilers :  Is this just a journalist screwing up or did it happen ??

Seems totally messed up.

One could look farther back for this lesson as well. Let's look at the 70's, DC Comics. They started doing the same thing, flooding the market with all kinds of series, most of which died in the DC Implosion (around '77 I think). And that was before the direct market. These lessons should be written in stone and stamped on the EIC's forehead when he gets the job. But Quesada, far from learning, is actually ignoring HIS OWN DIRECTIVES. He came into the job saying "no gimmick covers, no variant editions" and so on, but since Jemas has left, all that shit has returned. Marvel is writing its own downfall... again, and they don't give a shit who they trash to do it.

Captain America hasn't been killed in any of the books I've seen. If they really really are going to kill him, Ed Brubaker should fuck the editors who decided this to death. His Cap book had been one of the bright spots of the MU before Civil War. But this:


This is hypocrisy writ large. Resurrections are a thing of the past? What about Captain Marvel? What about not one but TWO excreable Phoenix: War Song miniseries resurrecting the Phoenix character in various bodies. What about Annilihus in the mediocre Annihilation series? Stick to your own story, asshead. Cassandra Nova? Colossus?

If so, it's in a comic that just came out today.

It's in Captain America #25 which just came out today (it was actually a pretty badly kept secret).

So I know Cap is/was just a guy who was given this super soldier serum and stuff, but a sniper?  Really?  That's just weak sauce. 

At least Brubaker wrote the issue so it should be handled well.  The thing that really bothers me about it (aside from pretty much fucking over the story Brubaker has been telling thus far) is the fact that they had a very similar scenario play out with the assassination attempt on Speedball in Frontline.

You know what'll happen next if Steve Rogers really is dead. Bucky, at the urging of Nick Fury, will become the new Captain America.

Which would be fucking clownshoes, but hey, they might as well, how much worse could they fuck up the story?

Well, Punisher already got Cap's mask in Civil War #7.

Yes, he did.

Fuck, don't say shit like that. Bad enough if Bucky takes it over, Punisher becoming Captain America would be retarded beyond measure.

Lead in to 1602.

Did any of you read that Civil War issue where Punisher got his ass kicked by the Cap (and the reason why...)?

I mean, those are just two completely different characters. That'd be insane if Frank Castle starts wearing that suit.

Maybe Cap will be replaced by four different Captain Americas.  You can have Cyborg Cap (Bucky with his robotic arm), violent Cap that murders criminals (Punisher), armored Cap (the Red, white, and blue Iron Man armor), and teenage Cap (Bucky from Heroes Reborn world).  First they need to do a multi-part "World without a Captain America" storyline though.

Damn, that just sucks. Goodbye, Cap ---- Just when I started liking you.

I liked the fact that he was a man out of time and all that.

I guess Marvel saw that as a bad thing.

Cap will be back before too long.  Fuck, they just brought back Captain Marvel, so any talk Quesada likes to throw around about death being more significant in the Marvel Universe these days is complete bullshit.

Man, I wish I had the one box of comics that is somewhere at my parent's house.  IIRC, I have an ancient What If . . . series book (from back when there were those kickass Spidey-themed Hostess Fruit Pie ads) that was something like either What If Captain America Had Survived WWII or What If Cap Hadn't Beat Down Red Skull.  Damn, I wish I could remember that title.  I also had one where Jane Foster found Thor's hammer and it was disguised as a hairbrush. 

Ah sweet, here's a link to a list of the What If titles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_What_If_issues).  Apparently that was "What if Cap Hadn't Vanished During WWII."  My guess is that it's kind of moot now, what with the sniper and all.  I am also happy that, if I can find 'em, I have two of the first ten of those comics.

I think its appropriate that Captain America dies, since the America that he represented died in 9/11.

My God, I'm glad I don't buy this shit any longer. I'll continue to read spoiler sites to find out when he comes back.

Didn't Captain America get at least replaced once before? I seem to remember someone else took over for him and that replacement was eventually killed.

I like Captain America when he is portrayed like Superman in DKR - a guy trying to do good but a bit naive and being used.

Marvel has had some really awful universe-wide events. Secret Wars was pretty cool but since then most of their big stuff has been crap. Inferno anyone?

Edit: Over-under on his miraculous return? 6 months?

Off-hand I can think of at least 4 people who have been replacement Caps.  USAgent is the only one still living.

I don't know about that.

Did you happen to read the corresponding Punisher issue covering the same event?  From his perspective, they're two very similar people.

But keep in mind, the Punisher pretty insane, so his perspective is rather skewed.

Yeah, Punisher is just deluded.

When Captain America kicked his ass, Punisher didn't fight back at all.

"Not you," he said.

He idolized him, and after it was all over with, he tried to give this speech about how him and Cap are both soldiers etc..

Cap called him a psycho, and left him cuffed up in a small room (though he did release him later, but only gave him rubber bullets).

Point is, putting on the Captain America mask is very much something the Punisher would do.

Whether he's actually anything like Captain America doesn't matter.  He would be a very different Captain America, to be sure, but surely it's not hard to imagine Frank Castle considering himself the last line of sanity between America gone insane and his ideal of America.

Yeah, you're right about that. He's crazy enough, and like I said, he idolizes the guy.

In the right hands, I guess it could be an interesting take to have a Sgt. Barnes Captain America copycat out there (just as long as it doesn't last too long).

Great, so Capinator is born and becomes the new symbol of what America really stands for.  It's so in-your-face I don't see how Marvel could avoid it.  Despite the blatent political message, they only want to do it so there can be more death and explosions happening in a Captain America book...

Congratulations Marvel!  Let's all welcome the return of the speculators! (http://collectibles.search.ebay.com/captain-america-25_Comics_W0QQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfposZ25703QQfromZR10QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsacatZ63QQsadisZ200QQsargnZQ2d1QQsaslcZ2QQsbrftogZ1QQsofocusZbs)

I wouldn't mind seeing The Punisher as Cap for a limited time as political statement.

Heh, good one.

Quesada was on Nightline last night talking about it. It made me stabby.

He said that the Civil War story is a reflection of post-9/11 America and that Cap's death served to highlight the political divisions in America. Joe Simon came on (93 years old and still fighting) and basically said it was horseshit, that during the years of Cap's creation there were people protesting against the war in the streets because they idolized Hitler.

I'm going to go with Joe Simon on this one. The Civil War story is a reflection of post-9/11 America in the same way Ice Pirates is a reflection of the space program. But at least Ice Pirates was fucking entertaining. 

A lot of people were protesting WWII because they knew that WWI was hell. i.e. pacifists. The US would have entered WWII a lot sooner if it weren't for public opinion.

So yeah, there are more parallels to our time than some may think.

We're about to get a national ID system that wil serve as a internal passport system.  America has changed.

Just read Civil War: The Initiative.

Fuckity fuck fuck. Shitty shit shit shit.

They hinted that Cap is NOT DEAD, but is fighting to stay alive on the raft. If they go through this whole bullshit thing just to make everyone think he's dead, but then he's not dead... weak sauce.

The rest of the book is really shit. We get more Bendis dialogue, with Reed fucking Richards being jocular. Then we find out about the new Omega Flight, which is a collection of stupid. More on the Thunderbolts, which still doesn't work for me at all because after all the deaths and destruction, Stark STILL wants to use these fuckers? He still wants to make Venom and Bullseye cape hunters? Oh that's right, his nanos work because he was the one made Osborne go nuts. RETARDED.

We are treated to Stark's repartee with Jarvis about choosing the new Avengers, including statements like "just don't have that Tigra bitch (bleeped)" or some such stupidity. I swear I lose IQ points just thinking about the dialogue.

Marvel Comics are going to suck for a long while. Until the next reboot in 5 years from the new EIC, Slappy McContinuitystein.

I recall this being something that was continually being attempted to be passed all through the Clinton years by the administration, and has been something talked about longer than that.  This is nothing new in the slightest.  All that has happend is that Republican opposition in congress has diminished since 9/11.



And this whole Cap thing is INSANLY retarded.

Pulled from random Newsarama article:


I think the rough translation of that is: "Fuck guys, we couldn't keep our continuity straight as usual.  We're working on shoehorning in an in-story explanation right now because we're genetically unable to admit our continuity fuck-ups and instead spin long, implausible, fan-fictionesque explanations.  In other words:  Working as Intended."

I just assumed she was bullshitting and trying to get Spider-Woman to come along without a fight.

Why bother when she just lets her go anyway?

Total retardation is the only explanation.

http://www.slate.com/id/2161469/fr/flyout

Although this is about the least likely source for comic news on earth, read the part near the bottom about what the "Marvel spokesperson" says. 

Yeah, you know Cap will be back in some way. And based on who has been in charge of Marvel Editorial, it'll be dumb as two bags of hammers.

Also, that article reminds me why I hate Slate.

Did I read that right that there is a 5 part series coming out on his death?

I think they were saying that Civil War was a 5-part series, when really it was a 7-parter, but maybe Marvel has found a way to squeeze another 5-parter out of total shit.

No it's actually a five part mini called Fallen Son, with each issue focusing on one character as well as on one of the five stages of grief (or whatever).  Its announcement a few months back was actually one of the first hints people got that Cap was going to die (in that they announced that the series would be about characters trying to deal with a death that was caused by the end of Civil War).

Edit: Linkage (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=104117)

Also Cap related Colbert Report video clip (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=104454)

Even if they did kill Cap off for good, which they didn't, they suck ass for A: killing him with a fucking pistol and B: giving him a stupid, meaningless death.  For all Qesada bullshitted about 'giving deaths meaning', let's look at the score:

Goliath - dead - nobody cares.
Typeface - dead- nobody cares.
Three unidentified supers dead in big climactic fight - nobody cares.
Cap - maybe died like chump.

They've pretty much killed Spider-Man and Iron Man too. As far as I'm concerned.

Now if they'll just kill Cyclops already...

They need to leave Cyclops alone. They've already removed his balls by making him queen bitch to the White Queen. They show as much contempt for Cyclops as most fans do.

Cap died like a punk bitch. Mace Windu had a more honorable death.

I don't know, getting shot point blank several times by Sharon Carter wasn't too bad.  I think the problem was that especially due to the art in the scene where he gets shot, and the fact that they don't show Sharon's involment until the reveal at the end, people think it was the sniper that killed him.  The sniper only got him in the shoulder (which Cap intentionally used to block the shot from hitting one of the security guys).

Yeah, and apparently NOBODY WAS LOOKING when she just whips out a pistol and unloads into Steve's belly, not one single person's attention was drawn to the newly-shot superhero.  Fucking SPEEDBALL survives the Lee Harvey Oswald treatment, then they do it again to Captain America and it's fatal.  (Maybe.)

My dissatisfaction with Marvel has reached an all-time high with Civil War, and I'd thought it couldn't get any higher after House of M.  After having been fed this shit sandwich of a god-awful nonsense story, I'm hoping that enough people stop buying Marvel books to put them into deep enough financial trouble that they fire the hell out of their current staff and hire someone competent.

DC does Infinite Crisis and 52 and characters change and die and the characters actually matter, that's an example of a big event done right.  And then, fucking Marvel...  I swear, if I could mail them a punch to the balls, I'd do it.

I really don't feel that Infinite Crisis was very superior.  It pretty much fizzled at the end.  There wasn't that much progress, and bringing back the multiple universes and Monitor(s) is fucking stupid.  I'd much, much rather have a story like Civil War, but just executed better.  That's my only problem with this- they couldn't keep their shit straight and managed to make what should have been a pretty straightforward event require clarification on dozens of points, while some events outright contradict other events.

But I'll take a politically charged superhero division over punching the walls of reality any day.  That sort of shit is why I disliked House of M- reality altering happens way, way, way too often.  Write a story with the world you've made.

It's ok to be wrong.  :evil:

I'll take reality-altering wall punches to an absolute refusal to characterize established brand-name characters correctly. And multiple universes (I always loved the old Earth-1/Earth-2 stuff), and the Monitor, etc. etc. etc.

My problem with Infinite Crisis and a lot of DC events is that it feels like they're just rewriting the universe, rather than telling a story in the universe they've written.

DC has that problem as lot with Elseworlds stuff as well...as someone said earlier they'd rather write in some alternate universe than the one they actually invented it a lot of the time.

[SPOILER ALERT!] The New Cap? (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=104938)

Gay.

Not enough sense of style for that. :-D

I'm guessing it will be a quick 1-3 month story, as I suspect that Brubaker has his own story that he wants to tell as far as replacing Cap goes and I doubt the Punisher is involved.

Too obvious at this point.  They don't put up pictures of things like that with the question "IS THIS THE NEW CAPTAIN AMERICA?!" except as a tease.  If it was permanent, it would say "GET READY FOR THE NEW CAPTAIN AMERICA!"

Agree with Velorath. Temporary thing, something else is coming down the pipes.

It's strange, I really don't care most of the time when a superhero dies.  I mean, the comic book geek in me can get worked up about it, but I don't really care.  But Steve Rogers being dead just struck me differently.  Like I was almost (highlight that almost) depressed.  I thought about just not reading any comics anymore.  I really was just getting to really like the character.

If Cap's really dead, what about 1602 ?

I loved what they did with Cap there.

For those fond of one-shots featuring Cap and Iron Man arguing about Civil War, The Confession has two such arguements.  Well, one argument really.  The first half is just Iron Man talking to Cap's corpse.

That book was worse than the Avengers. Why must Bendis make every fucking character sound like a sorority airhead hooked on crank? All the heroes went from badasses to chatty Cathy's on their MySpace pages.

The many stupid faces of Captain America!

CIVIL WAR (tm): FRONT LINES - "I'm so sorry for what I did, tell that to Tony!"

CIVIL WAR (tm): CONFESSIONS - "Fuck you, Tony, you stupid fuck!"

God damn Bendis and his shitty writing.  And damn Marvel for their shitty editors and the gargantuan contradictions they let fall through the cracks everywhere.

Bendis just needs to stick to characters he knows, like Luke Cage.  As a fan of a lot of Dan Slott's stuff, I'm hoping his Avengers book will at least be readable, although I'm questioning the sudden decision to turn it into an ongoing.  Actually the non-continuity book (more or less intended for kids) Marvel Adventures: The Avengers is probably some of the best Avengers stuff I've read in a few years.  Issue #9 which came out a few months ago and has the Avengers getting turned into M.O.D.O.K.'s was an instant classic.

(http://images.tfaw.com/covers_tfaw/200/no/nov062305d4.jpg)

The first issue of Fallen Son:  The Death of Captain America - Wolverine came out last Wednesday.  The basic premise of this issue (this is the one that focuses on the first stage of grief, which would be denial) is that Wolverine doesn't really believe that Cap is dead.  It's certainly understandable given that most of the readers don't believe that Cap is dead for the long term either.  There's some ok character moments here, but it doesn't really add up to anything other than telling the readers that Cap is really dead.  I understand that it's just the first part of a 5 part story, and it's by no means horrible, which in and of itself is an accomplishment given the circumstances.  Seeing other people react to Cap's death though is something that should happen in either Cap's book, or in the book of whatever character is doing the reacting.  This mini needs to have an actual story to tell rather than just being a series of character moments, and if it has an actual overall story, that certainly doesn't come through here.  I'm also not sure how it fits with Caps body being used as bait in New Avengers (which also involved Wolverine).

It fits by being another book they can sell with Wolverine in it. Otherwise, it sounds like something covered well enough in the fucking New New Avengers crappy book.

Having read the second two issues of Fallen Son... the main thought on my mind is that I'm already sick of the post-Civil War MU.  I'm tired of hearing the same characters spout the same talking points over and over again.  This mini is supposed to be about the reaction to Cap's death but that frequently takes a back seat to the pro/anti-reistration drama.  Hawkeye makes his return known, and Iron Man wastes no time in manipulating him into becoming the new Cap and taking him out to arrest two of the anti-reg Young Avengers?  After working with Hawkeye all this time, doesn't he know Clint better than that?  This guy lead the fucking Thunderbolts when they were still wanted by the law.  What would make Tony think that he has any interest in hunting down and arresting heroes, and in Cap's uniform no less?

Oh, and Hawkeye is really good at using Cap's shield.  Because he's a marksman.  Apparently the MU only has one generic weapon skill and if you master it, you've become an expert in using all weapons.  Using swords as Ronin makes some sense because he trained with the Swordsman.  I'm not buying this though.

Hawkeye as Ronin was just fucking stupidity of the highest caliber. I think Hawkeye has used Cap's shield once or twice before (I know Wonder Man has). But yes, the whole fucking Fallen Son series has been atrocious. It's been repetitious shit. I'm still waiting for someone to tell a story about Civil War that doesn't make me want to fistfuck the writer to death.

I thought this was excellent. (http://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-Film-Ken-Burns/dp/B0002KPI2S/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-9664736-7215331?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1180043214&sr=8-1)

I agree.  I'm just saying that I understand that why Clint might have at least some training with swords.  I don't think they're a good weapon for him to use, since they aren't the easiest weapons to use in a non-lethal manner, but when U.S.Agent was first being trained as Cap's replacement, it was shown just how tricky it is to learn how to use Cap's shield (to the point where the government had to get the Taskmaster to train him).

And the retcon retardery continues.

New Avengers Illuminati #3 is out. The collected idiocy meets the sins of the past when the FUCKING BEYONDER comes to Earth. And not the all-powerful "fight for me or I squash you" Beyonder from well, beyond, but the leisure suit "I look like Jim Shooter for some strange reason, except with a shitty afro sheen perm" Beyonder.

And he's not really an all-powerful being from beyond the universe, HE'S A FUCKING INHUMAN. A MUTANT INHUMAN.

I mean really, this just has to stop. There's a certain point where you just can't retcon anymore. Secret Wars 2 was an abomination on comics and should be forgotten as quickly as possible. It was terrible and trying to retcon some non-suck into it is just going to make you the writer look like a fucking idiot, and the customers who buy it look like fucking tools. STOP IT.

Retcons of 20+ year old stories = good storytelling.

I just watched Pan's Labyrinth tonight, and your avatar is offically creepy and bad now Velorath.  More so than it was before, when I didnt know what the fuck it was.  He eats babies for christ sake!



Thats all I can really add to this Civil War thread.  Just let it die the horrible death it deserves.  Maybe we can start a new post-civil war Initiative giant marvel universe cluster fuck thread to bitch in ;).

We all have our quirks.

Damn I wish I hadn't stopped reading comics...then again with trying to catch up with this series, it has made me glad I'm not buying...

Can any of you all fill me in?

1.  Is Thor and the Asgard's still dead?

2.  Was Hawkeye dead during the Civil War too?

3.  Was very lame for the Punisher to come on and then not obey Cap's orders...they are both great soldiers and should understand how to take and give orders...then again they have been making Punisher more psycho.

4.  So I guess we will wait till Cap, Hawk, and Thor somehow wake up and remember what it means to be avengers and fight for what is right even if the public is being stupid (and that was a lame idea on the workers backing the psycho Ironman), I say this as I remember reading a bunch of times when the good guys get hammered and submit, but it usually is those 3 that figure out what they need to do. 

5.  Where was the Hulk?

Hopefully this crap doesn't run over onto the video games coming out.

1) Thor has just been ressurected in his own book, but Asgard is still dead. He has yet to interact with the rest of the Marvel Universe, though.

2) Hawkeye was alive, and banging the Scarlet Witch in Romania. Now, he's wearing the Ronin costume in New New Avengers. Yes, that's a complete tool thing to do. He's totally given up the bow and arrow and is swinging a sword. Yes, it's retarded as hell.

3) Punisher is really a lame character in the MU anyway, no matter how well written. The Mack Bolan style of writing they've used on him in the last decade or two really clashes with the 4-color MU world.

4) Hawkeye is listed above, Thor was dead during the Civil War and Cap... well, I won't spoil the end for you.

5) The Hulk had been shot into space by the Illuminati, which was Iron Man, Reed Richards, Black Bolt and Doctor Strange. He ended up on a world where he was a gladiator, overthrew the world's oppressive government and took over himself, married a woman and had kids (?), then the capsule that the Illuminati used to shoot him into space exploded, killing almost everyone on the planet including Hulk's wife. Hulk has just returned to Earth in is currently beating the shit out of any hero that will fight him in the World War Hulk crossover event series running right now.

Haem, I saw the CW trade paperbacks today and thought about jumping in do you recommend the series?  Also, any idea where I start?  I'm not sure when trade is the first one.

Pick up the Planet Hulk HC instead.

No, I couldn't in good conscience recommend them to anyone, unless you just have to know why the Marvel Universe is so fucked lately, or if in 2-5 years, you wonder why the MU is doing a complete Crisis on Infinite Earths/Worldstorm type of reboot. Civil War is a well-drawn nightmare of a shitty story written by a good writer who really didn't give a shit about the story he was writing.

hahahahahahah.

Well played.

Honestly, go to that Mighty God King blog and read his recaptioned parody of it. That's what I did and I'm a better man geek for it.

Kind of, but not really Civil War related, the second issue of Thor came out today.  So far the series is decompressed storytelling at it's finest.  Issue #1 should have been some #0 issue promotional give-away or something given that the majority of it was to recap past events in splash pages.  This time around we get a few more pages of Donald Blake socializing the the locals, about 8 pages or so of him turning into Thor and summoning Asgard, and then the rest of the issue is him walking through the empty halls, and buying the land that Asgard is floating over.  These first two issues could have been told in about 11 or 12 pages.  After being gone since Avengers Disassembled, I don't think people wanted to get a Thor series where he sits around drinking coffee in a diner as Donald Blake.  I also realize the locals they seem to be developing as part of the supporting cast may not be the brightest people around, but one would hope they quickly make the connectiion between Blake arriving in town and Thor showing up.

JMS has talent.  Rising Stars and Midnight Nation were both great stories.  Everything he's done since then has been wasted potential, from books that take way too long to get anywhere, like Supreme Power, to the downright horrible work like some of his Spider-man arcs.  I guess the former is the lesser of two evils, but it's still sad to see that a once good writer kind find a way to fit some action into a book about one of Marvel's more powerful characters, the fucking Norse God of Thunder.

Marvel's new series the Order (which came out a week or two ago), was a surprising decent read.  Sure I've seen some of the concepts utilized elsewhere, and I haven't gotten to know any of the characters yet, besides the team leader (although there's somewhat of a reason for that in the story), but it's an enjoyable team book regardless.  Nothing I urge people to run out and buy, given how much competition there is out there for your dollar.  If one wants to buy a Marvel team book, I'd recommend Runaways and X-Factor before I'd recommend The Order.  Solid book though.  Hopefully they'll keep the pace going as fast as it was in this first issue.

Having not heard about the new Order series until very recently, I'd hoped it was going to be a return to the Order miniseries - where the Hulk, Namor, Dr Strange and the Silver Surfer decide to take over the world - but sadly, no.

I love how Marvel has reduced its mutant population to the magical 199 figure (or whatever) but is then creating a whole host of new characters to fill the 50 teams. That seems sensible.

They were going to reuse the Champions name originally, but had to change it at the last minute for legal reasons.

The Spider-Man 'Back in Black' nonsense that's come out of the Civil War is making it really, really clear what a fucking mistake it was to unmask Peter.

That's Spider Man almost completely and utterly ruined.

Yep. The latest issue of Spider-Man just really doesn't ring true to me. He's vowed to kill the Kingpin whenever Aunt May dies, which will essentially be the last hurrah for the old Spider-Man. Spider-Man doesn't kill, I don't care how far you push him. Angry Spider-Man just doesn't work.

Yup, that's pretty much what I was referring to.

We knew the cop-out was coming, but not what form it would take.  The form it took fucking sucked donkeys.

Indeed, this whole 'I'm Peter Parker and you can deal with me face to face now' thing is fucking retarded.


Before he used anonymity to protect his family and now he's going to use....intimidation and threat of death ?  What an awesome hero.

I eagerly await the waterboarding.

Just wait till the Daily Bugle run with a front page featuring an unmasked Spider-Man, cigarrette in his mouth, smiling and pointing at the genitals of a hooded Doc. Oc.

Read Thor #3, and figured I'd mention it here since it ties into the whole clone Thor thing from Civil War.  Aside from the by-the-numbers fight between Thor and Iron man that does nothing beyond what's expected, and the "Asgardians in mortal forms" plot point which is recycled from the Journey into Mystery title that replaced Thor after Onslaught, what's the real reason why I wanted to bring this issue up?  JMS' nigh-offensive use of New Orleans and hurricane Katrina, not for any sort of thematic connection to what's going on in the book, nor to make any sort of intelligent political commentary.  No, it's seeming shoehorned into the book in order to try and add false weight and sentiment.  It feels like exploitation plain and simple, using a real life tragedy to try to make a dull comic seem more relevant.

As much as I like JMS for B5, you are completely 100% right about Thor #3. New Orleans felt extremely tacked on for all the worst reasons. It almost got preachy and not preachy in the good JMS way but preachy in the bad, didactic way. What's worse is the whole sympathetic to New Orleans' plight stuff goes right out the window when Iron Man comes and and they have to fight. It's such a shame, because the artwork is the best Thor's looked in years. But the fact that Thor DOESN'T kill Tony Stark is just ludicrous. He's a fucking God, and Stark stole body bits to make a Thorling.

Stark should be getting double-stuffed by the Hulk AND Thor, instead of just a "we'll deal with this later."

It was definitely the "bad preachy" that JMS is prone to on occasion.

Plus the whole take so far seems to me a slight ripoff of Gaiman's American Gods.

It's never a good idea in a universe full of underwear-on-the-outside superheroes to ask, "Why didn't they stop a real-world disaster/attack from happening?" Because the answer has to be about ten pounds of stupid within those universes. "Well, you see, normally Superman can plug up a volcanic eruption with his superflatulence, but...this time he was on a mission in space. Yeah, that's the ticket."  "Uh, 9/11? All the superheroes were at a picnic and the teleporter tubes and Quinjets just happened to be busted that day. Sorry!" It's almost always a dumb idea to do "real-world relevant", but it's an extra pile of dumb the way JMS chose to do it. Just concentrate on Thor, dude. With a bit of Iron Douchebag ass-whipping on the side.

I'm wishing for a pony...so why not:

I want to see Hawk, Cap, and Thor yell Avenger Assemble and beat the fuck out of Iron Man and his cronies, and have Spidey, Punisher, and the others that have been bastardized put back on the right track.

Stan Lee will show up to the office, say WTF and clean house...

And the beagles and the bunnies will play cards with each other...

You know, I honestly must say I agree with Jimbo on this one.  Stan really needs to go down to the marvel offices and kick some major ass, wolverine style.   Throw in a 'nuff said when he is done, and all will be good.

You can't beat up Iron Man, he's about to have a major motion picture released.  What will Johnny Public think after the movie when he picks up a comic and the Hulk is using IM's helmet as bongo drum?

Cross over movie!

Ironman vs Incredible Hulk 2 !

Bongo drum, hell. He should be using it as a chamber pot right now.