f13.net

Being a long time MMO player the phenomenon known as the "fan boy" is nothing new to me. They have been around as long as MMO's have, a part of the genre since the very first MUDs came on the scene. No matter how obscure the setting (Auto Assualt), nor how bad the history of the developer the fan boys were there lending their support and bashing any nay sayers. Having observed this over the years it brings to light a question and a comment.

1. The Question.
What is the psychological make up of the fan boy. What creates one. Why do they do what they do. No matter how bad the release or how horrible the track record, they are their standing up against forum abuse and spittle to sing praises of their favorite game and developer to the high heavens. What drives them to this compulsion? What is their motivation?

Now Im no psychology major, but having taken a couple courses years ago in college it seems to me that there is a phenomenon here actually worthy of research and funding. There is an almost religious like attachment to their favorite game or developer, in some cases when all logical available evidence points to the contrary they will still be posting their support. AC2 was a prime example. Right up until the day the servers were shut down the fan boys were there prostelytizing about how people had to hang on and have "faith."  I sincerely feel some young aspiring psychology doctoral candidate could write a great research paper about this almost manic or religious attachment.

2. The Observation.
Quite frankly in my opinion such fan boys are killing the MMO industry. In nearly 99% of businesses as a new industry segment matures or ages their expertise to deliver a quality product to the customer increases. New technology simply due to its being new or cutting edge is expected to be rougher than later iterations as more business enter the field and learn from those who forged the virgin path. They learn from the pitfalls and mistakes of the pioneers and are able to release a better polished product with each subsequent generation akin to natural selection in ecology.

Desipte such business trends, within the MMO industry I would argue this is not taking place. As more and more MMOs are released they are not getting better. The MMOs released today have just as many if not more bugs than the release of EverQuest the very first 3d MMO did. Recent examples would include: Anarchy Online, notable for causing customers to have to reformat their hard drives; Lineage 2, being rife with known exploits it died in 2 months in the US market; Horizons, bugs, bugs, oh and more bugs; DDO, bugs, lack of content, shoddy UI; Seed, recent and utterly dismal release, no sound?; etc. Anyone familiar with the MMO scene can list any number of titles which simply dissapeared within a month of release, dying a quiet lonely death due to their inferior quality at release, and even some of the more popular ones were far from shining examples of quality at release.

How does this trend seem to continue? Why is it we have not seen the increase in quality one would expect? In my opinion we can lay it all firmly in the lap of the fan boys. Over the life time of an MMO up till the day of its birth into the world developers put up websites, do interviews, talk about their "vision", and bring in the fan boys like moths to the flame. In many cases it is eerily similar to a cult leader charismaticaly drawing in members with his promises of hapiness and nirvana. Is that what it has come to? Are MMO's to the marginalized youth of today as cults were to their parents in the 60's and 70's?

In either case developers and their marketing experts know that by building such a rabid utterly loyal fan boy base, they can release a title that is no where near ready to see the light of day and it will sell. Then once the issues become known, and they always do, they need simply say, "Hey making games is hard and we are working to get it right." At this point the fan boy base drinks the kool aid, praises the development team, and proceeds to stomp, stone and out scream anyone who so much as utters a negative word about the game. They, the developers, know that their lack of polish, their lack of quality or innovation, will be explained away for them. They dont even have to come to their own defense. The fan boys do it for them. I submit that in no other industry do we see such blind "faith" in a company which releases a shoddy or substandard product as we do in that of MMO's, and the fan boys are to blame. I further submit that until the fan boy phenomenon can be surpressed the industry's condition will not improve.


Thoughts? Comments?

The fan boy mentality is the same as the collector mentality. I will never understand why people collect baseball cards just like I will never understand why people want to fellate the Vanguard dev team.

I will assert that while I have been a fan of many games before they came out, I never went to the "fan boy" level. I barely knew what EQ was before I bought it even though I had played UO for some time. I also have never collected anything seriously other than a 6-9 month stint as a pre-teen philantelist because my parents gave me "starter kit".

Or it could be as simple as kissing ass might get one a job in the industry.

'fan boys' are not to blame. They have little to no influence on any game anywhere, ask any red name here if they actually act on the frothing madness these people spew into official forums, and you will get the universal 'no'.
The trick is making them think they are being listened to , to keep subs going.

MMO's are not progressing in terms of quality, that is true on the whole, there is one major exception to that obviously, and several smaller ones.

The  reason is corporate desicion makers governing development time purely on accounting projections, subsequent dev apathy, and the MMO consumer market, as a whole accepting the products put forth.

As long as we, as consumers , continue to purchase these games (people have bought seed , ddo, swg, AC2, all without being 'fan boys' , just mmo consumers) the status quo remains.

This is probably true post release, but I think they do their damage in beta. Every beta I have ever participated in has a cadre of sycophantic morons who flame anyone who dare post a critcism of the game, no matter how well thought out or how obvious the problem is. They rabidly defend each and every developer decision like it was handed down on stone tablets without thought. Eventually the criticisms get lost in the noise of all the ass-kissing, and the critics get tired of beating their heads against a wall for no reason. The game gets released, and you have SWG.

:)

Eh, you really lost me there, that's a fairly ridiculous statement.

You are probably correct about betas. However, at launch, 'fan boys' are not a large enough group to sustain any MMO financially, the problem is we, meanining MMO consumers as a whole, are the ones who support the bug ridden atrocities that get released all to regularly.

Id also say that the unfinished state of games such as swg at launch are down purely to marketing/accounts people dictating release schedules, and whilst fanboyism could be argued to support certain inane ideals, like Vanguard for instance, the poor quality of the product in the shops is down to the dichotomy of development time needed versus the management need for rushed release to meet whatever marketing/finaincial requirements they deem important.

Either way, when a game like swg can sell over 1 million boxes (regardless of how many/few stayed at any given point) its more than fan boys keeping these games afloat.

I bookmark the fanboi's in a special folder.  If you go back 6 months after release there's normally a tearful goodbye thread as they explain they just don't love the devs anymore.  Other fanbois then flame them, it's great entertainment.

IMHO, the industry is still too new to have the kind of pattern of market development you are expecting.  But even if it did....

How would you define a better quality MMO then?

Is it only taking an existing game system and reducing the bugs and exploints or having 20% more content than current market leader?  Sounds fine, and thats the route WoW went, but as many have said WoW really isn't offering anything new.  They garned large numbers by arguably being the ONLY quality mmo out now, but for many consumers, that's not enough.  After all, who wants yet another diku game?

For future titles,  quality alone will not be enough.  They need to bring something new to the table to give people a reason to play them, or more importantly, switch to them.  But it's a bit of a catch 22 b/c if you are truly doing something new, you wont have even the short history of previous mmo's to help you achieve high quality in that feature.  How many products, mmo or otherwise, got new feature X right the very first time?  Not many.

So, do you want to be a cutting edge market leader with it's inherent risks of failure, or aim for releasing incrementally improved products to try and capture largest market share.  One way is ATiTD; the other is WoW.  But, no matter how you slice it, fanboys have no impact on the industry's lack of quality.

Xilren
PS And this is why having a stable of games under one roof is going to become even more popular.  Get one or two cash cow games to fun the more risky ones.  Course, Im not sure which game SOE would consider their cash cow since EQ1 is long in the tooth...

Gah.

It's really hard to define this, sometimes.  For the record, I ran a 400+ member guild in SWG for over 2 years.  I certainly was a fan of the game and the community, but I pretty much gave the producers/devs unadulterated disdain for consistantly misreading what the problems and priorities were for maintaining and growing customers.  In a nutshell, I liked to point out the obvious to them, quite often.  However, I also offered praise when they did smart things, too.  Of course, when the NGE hit and pretty much everyone logged off forever inside of a week, I finally gave up completely.  So, what the hell was I in this pattern?

Edit: corrections *** miss spell checker

Brougden and I are F13.net fanbois and are going to ruin your boards!

Cheddar was the last F13 fanboi, so much so that he got F13 license plates.  Now look at him.

double grr

I think it starts out with the fanboys having to convince themselves in some whicked way, they want to keep the dream alive. They buy into the hype machine, then some random dude posts that the game ain't gonna be all that. The fanboys then jumps in to defend the game in order to defend it, because they really WANT the game to be all that. After that they're forever doomed to be a fanboy of the game, people simply doesn't change stance easily, because that would mean they were wrong.

Everyone wants to believe in something, something greater than themselves. MMO's are the same as Apples vs. Windows, Ipod vs. other MP3 players, Linux vs. Windows, etc. Zealotry is just a loose screw in the faith gear for some folks.


Lineage 2 is not only not dead, it's actually up to 90k subs in the US I believe. It just wasn't well-received here because it was a Korean game, meaning it had a very Korean sense of game design. NCSOft knew it wouldn't hit big here, but it didn't matter because the Korean numbers were huge. Horizons is still around, DDO is supposedly doing well outside of the jaded know-it-alls like myself. Seed is an indy development and thus no surprise.

PC Games (and now videogames in general) are just being done shoddily, not because of fanbois hordes, but because WE KEEP BUYING THEM. We buy shit in the hopes it will get patched, and become gold. We buy on potential, not reality.

While I imagine that there are many factors that can cause someone to be a fanboy, I think a good portion of it starts right after a game is announced when communities start forming on message boards.  Before any info about the game itself is ever revealed there are people out there spending months hoping and speculating.  Without even playing or knowing anything about the game they've already invested a lot of their time in it.  It becomes more and more important that the game doesn't suck, otherwise all their time spent posting and building a community would be a waste.  A lot of them, especially on official boards also develop a "we were here first" sense of entitlement, as well as a desire to keep their name out there and known to the devs in an effort to be invited into the beta early. 

Now figure that it can take years from the time a game is announced to the time it's released and you've got a group of people who have more time invested in a game before it's even released than most of us invest in a game throughout it's lifespan.  It's not surprising that a lot of people aren't going let themselves accept that the game is anything less than the Second Coming.  There are people out there who have still convinced themselves that the Star Wars prequels were anything other than steaming piles of the devil's own feces for similar reasons.

The whole essay explains how I arrived at that conclussion.

Try reading it again. Slower this time.

Shush! They werent supposed to know until F13 enters beta!  :wink:

Maybe you should read your own post slowly again. Then edit it and get the points you are making in different paragraphs to not directly contradict each other.

So your point, if I understand it, is that a bunch of games have come out and done poorly, which is explained by the fact that developers know their games will do well no matter how bad they are. Makes sense to me.

"Why'd your game tank bob?"
"We released it with tons of bugs because we knew it would do well anyway."
"So it's doing well?"
"No, it tanked."
"So why'd your game tank?"

Long live Emacs.  Vi, vi,vi is the editor of the beast...

On F13, this fun is most often seen in the holy wars of the AW-style PK fanbois.

Bah.  Teehee.




edit.  I still have the plates AND I REGRET NOTHING!

This thread is misplaced.  It belongs on the vnboards.

Here's a related question?  How many times have you gone fanboi over a release in development, and will you ever again?

I think I was gaga over Descent into Undermountain, which turned out to be one of the worst, most buggy, games of all time.  Burned, never again.  I followed EQ2 pretty closely, but not to fanboi levels.

And now, nothing.  WAR seems interesting, so does Spore, but I can't imagine getting excited over a game again. 


 

I agree.  There are a lot fewer MMO players now than there was 4 years ago.


Again I agree.  Take WoW for example.  It's such a low quality game.

Oh, filthy emacer, pressing two keys for everything, rage, religious fervor, conspiracy, kill whitey, blah blah...


I hate religious wars.

I haven't been fanboi over anything for a long time. The Wii has been the first thing I've had real excitement over in quite a while. As for MMOG's, after 2 1/2 years of EQ devotion, and Shadowbane's release, I don't get excited about anything until I play it. I get curious, and will follow a game's development casually, but most things just don't deserve my excitement.

Viva vi!

I was close to fangirl with SWG.  I hadn't done more than play a few trials for AO at the time.  I joined the boards around six months after it was announced and hung out exclusively on the dev board because game design fascinates me as it is both technical and psychological.  I supported most of the ideas they were presenting, but I wasn't totally fangirl because I did criticize things I thought were bad.  In beta and for many months after release I bugged everything in the belief that they valued bug-free code as much as I did.  Then Raph got promoted, the dev churn started, and things went downhill from there.

That made me rather jaded.  I follow games, I hope the ones that interest me turn out well, but I know better than to get invested like that again.

I suppose I am something of a Koster-esque fangirl still, in that I like his ideas usually, but I know he has his limitations and I'm not trying to find his address or track down every post he makes, so I guess I'm not that bad.

Leave that to the professionals.  ATTN RAPH:  The grass on the side of your house needs trimming.  kkthx!

Spore is the only think I'm fanboish about right now. But I suppose the critical concept here is that if it sucks, I won't pretend it's fun. I'll just curse Will Wright for taking the best goddamn concept in gaming history and not delivering. I won't like, stalk him or anything. I'll just hope someone else (him or anyone) picks up the concept and CAN deliver it.

I'm patient.

Im assuming that is sarcasm? If so WOW is one of how many MMOs released every year?

I'm going to guess One, since it's well, one game. 

Spore really does look enthralling!  There's something about creating that's just obsessive. :)

My wife teaches 4th grade. If Spore's even half of what it promises, she's going to try to get a grant to buy a half-dozen copies for use in the Gifted and Talented program. (Not unknown -- my college used SimCity 3000 as a teaching tool for some urban planning course. Not as an exact simuliation, but to give students a feel for some of the problems. Like, you know, trying to graft on freakin' mass transit on after the fact....)
 

Aww okay I see what you mean about the confusion. Opps. My bad.

I was alluding to:
1) Fan boys not allowing accurate feedback on a game or its systems to be explored and discussed during Beta stages due to their bashing anyone who speaks ill of the game.

2) Possibly providing enough initial influx of capital that developers know they can count on. They use this capital to finish working on the game rather than releasing a higher quality game in the first place. (This is purely opinion. Only person I have semi-heard of openly acknowledging this tactic is Seed). Any complaints about this business plan are again bashed down by the Fan Boys, because they have "faith" in the "vision" of the company.

3) Lastly the situation Samwise refered to. Put up a web site with all your grandiose plans for a next gen MMO. Allow Fan Boys to generate internet enthusiasm. Throw some crap together using a tight budget. Release said crap onto the market. Profit when said box sales exceed original tight budget....even if game fails you make money. Change company name and repeat.

If a product made money (you profited) how could it be said that you failed?

Fanbois are the fans companies love to have, but they have no impact on the game itself. They're managed like any resource for what they are: secondary advertising. They transcend from games to entire networks like Stratics.

Inviting them as testers doesn't matter. But inviting the wrong people for beta testing does. EQ2 is a wonderful example, the best I can think of. SOE wanted a casual MMOG, so they invited as their first testers all their Legends subscribers, the folks who loved EQ1 so much they paid $39.99 a month to play. Yep, that's the pulse of the maybe/inconsistently-10-hour-a-week crowd. But that's not the fault of the testers. That's just using a marketing program to invite the wrong people to deliver a vision.

On the other side are fanboi developers. Think about the people still designing games that they themselves want to play. Is that responsible to the company, and to stockholders, to design systems that were fun for you when you had the time to game that much? That's just not good business. Design for who you want to play the game, because that group's sensibilities and preferences always change.

That's all that needs to be said. Will Wright can inspire a lot more resources than many, but even the most derivative schlocky MMO shouldn't be given the time of day until it's actually a downloadable client within a focused beta. Now a "Game" that mixes the best bulletpoints of every dream anyone's ever had? I don't care what is promised nor how many articles get written about it. It starts to matter when people are using it. Nothing kills player created content like players.

Well, not fanboi enough togo onto official forums or anything, but I was following Fable loosely towards the end of it's dev cycle. And I bought the game. $ucker.

Ever again? Don't think so. I'm enough of a fan/player of Warhammer to be very interested in WAR, but their official boards are as filled with mutant fanboi freaks as every other game, so they're really too scary for me to bother positng on in the vain hope of getting a beta spot or some such.

FWIW, my first and only post to mmorpg.com was today when I questioned their awarding Africa with most Innovative game.  Seems to me over-hyping a title before it even has a beta or screenshots is how fanbois get conceived.  People keep jonesn' on the coming-soon info, but it still has to be credible. After launch, people then just keep feeding on rumour and innuendo to attack/defend the provider.  But definitely fanbois are a marketing tactic.

I think I'm lucky in that I didn't even hear about Spore until about a month ago. :)  I'm going off the 2005 and 2006 E3 demos, and hoping that his reputation and experience hold through.

If it fails -- well, I can hope someone else can deliver on the idea. Or fuck, that he makes Spore 2 and gets it right. Sometimes it's the idea that's the driver. The dream. There's art in the making of games, and that's a big part of it.

I think the valid point being made here is that fanboys so disrupt the flow of useful opinion and info back to the devs, and give them a warped view of their own game.

It's actually kind of strange when you think about it, the fact that there is any comminucation at all. MMORPGs are the only genre I can think of where there are official boards and things like that months or years before release.

EDIT: Missread post  :-P

Official boards should limit posts to one a week/day/whateve per registered user. If a dev reponds to your post, then you get to reply.  This would cut back much of the noise at the cost of a "community" that forms way too early.

Well Im just happy the thread is generating discussion and debate. Thats all an OP can hope for.

Oh, just admit it.  You were hoping to meet girls and grow hair. 

You have ruined your own lands, you'll not ruin ours!

Nah, it belongs here (http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/index.php?).  :evil:

The Elder Scrolls boards.  Maybe the EgoSoft X/X2/X3 boards although I only visited to find patch info.  Besides franchises, I cannot think of other concrete examples.

I agree. Noise > Signal, QFE, first!, all that thing.

Fanbois have their place in the cosmic scheme of delivering a game, and some will provide useful feedback (particularly if they're a fanboi of a focused part of the game. Get enough fanbois of each area and a good dev can balance it all). It's up to the community managers to manage the feedback though. That's why they're there, masochists though they are :)

UFO:Freedom Ridge (later renamed UFO:Aftermath) had one..

It was all a vain attempt to impress you!  :heart: :-D