f13.net

So, I was delivered the most ugly boat by far yesterday and was told it was a Blackbird. More like Shitbird as far as aesthetics go, but, who am I to judge?

Looking at the fittings, there are: 4 high slots, 6 mid slots and 2 lo slots. After doing some reading, I am toying with this configuration and I invite your comments.

High: 2x or 3x assault launchers (last line of defense), 1x NOS (dependant on what I can fit per skills)
Med: AB (for general travel, not for combat), sensor booster, 3 multispec jammers (only racials if I know beforehand and have them) and the last either a webber/scrambler or another jammer
Low: 2x capacitor power relays (decided against the armor since if it gets to that point the armor is not going to change the outcome)

The med slots are the ones which determine the usefulness of the BB in PVPish affairs. I would hesistate to replace the AB if I was going to have to make several hops just due to the pain of travel at that pace. I would be willing to dock and replace it with another jammer once arrived at the system.

Thoughts? Comments? Off-topic jeers?

Zipper Zee

p.s., I am considering naming it lame duck or fat pigeon, but feel free to suggest alternatives.

As far as I know, we have (had) lots of people with long range setups a target dampener might help keeping them and you alive.

You can't kill what you can't lock.

Yes! More target dampeners, the better. I'd like to see what we could do with some dampening + ECM burst.

Instead of jammers, perhaps jst go with the specific sensor-type jammers. There's only 4 types, right? If you equip 3 of them, the odds of at least 1 working is good, while if you have 3 multispecs, they'll all work, but they're all weak, and you might have to use all 3 on a single target.

But I ask another question:  A dampener just limits the range at which someone can lock, right? If it gimps your range to 10km, you can still lock anything within that range, although at a very slow rate?

And with a jammer, if it's poweful enough, will just outright deny the target the ability to lock anything at all, correct?

So is a dampener more consistent, and a jammer more dominating when it works?

The way I read the description, the dampener works all the time if you're in optimal range, whereas target jammers always have a possiblity of not working. The only counter for the dampener is a sensor booster, which neatly cancels out the effect. A lot of long range pirates probably mount a sensor booster or two, especially Caldari, so I'm guessing we'd need two or three or even four dampeners on an enemy to get him locked down.

3x multispecs and 1 of each racial jammer in your hold. dock and fit what's needed if you have the chance.

I normally go 2x heavy 1x assault, medium nos in the highs. web, scram, sensor booster, 3x multispecs in the mids. Cap relay and 800mm plate in the lows.

It's slow, but it's cool.

Jammers work similar to warp scramblers. Each ship has a given sensor strength and a given sensor type. In order to jam their sensors (which prevents them from targeting anything at all), you want to have the applied strength of Jam be greater than their sensor strength for the sensor type that they use.

Multispec Is have 4 jam strength for all types, Racial Is have 6 for their race and 2 for everything else. Note that multispecs also cost more cap to 'fire' than racials.

e.g. I have 2x Radar Jammers and 1 Multispec, the maximum jamming power I can bring to bear is 16 against Radar ships (Amarr) or 8 against all other ships.

Most tech1 frigates have around 6-12 sensor strength, most tech1 cruisers range from 14-20, battleships tend to be 18+. If you do not exceed the target's sensor strength, then you have only a chance of jamming them, and below 75% jam-strength your chances are less than 50%.

It is a rare day that a single jammer will be sufficient to lock down a target; using 2 jammers on 1 target is generally sufficient to lock down a frigate for good, 3 for a cruiser. With tech2s and good skills, you can use 2 Racials to lock down cruisers pretty effectively, but it won't always be at 100%.

My preferred loadout for my blackbird, which probably isn't optimal:

Highslots: 2x Heavy Missile Launchers (kinetic or thermal), 2x Medium Nos
Medslots: 1 Warp Jammer (20km), 4x Jammers (composition depending on intel), 1 Shield Booster OR 10MN AB OR Webber OR 20km Warp Jammer OR (passive) Cap Recharger
Lowslots: 2x Power Diagnostic System OR Capacitor Power Relay

Basically, the missiles are for podding and helpful damage, the Nos/PDS/CPR/Recharger keeps your cap going, the Jammer helps lock down your target and the 4x jammers can either be brought to bear on a single important interceptor/cruiser/battleship target or split against 2 frigate targets. Your jammers can and will eat your cap for lunch, so get those Nos going ASAP!

I prefer to get intel before scrambling for battle (frantic cries of 'WTF ARE THEY FLYING?'), but I also tend to carry 2-3 of each racial jammer in my hold when travelling with the thing.

It no longer works this way post RMR according to what I've read.

For example, assume you mount two racial jammers against a frigate with 12 strength. The first jammer has a 6/12=50% chance to jam. If that jammer does not jam, then the second jammer has a 50% chance to jam. Odds that both jammers do not jam are 25%, therefore your chance of successfully jamming in any given cycle is 75%. The forums suggest starting one, seeing if it works, then starting the next. If the first one does work, you are free to jam another target with your second jammer.

Uh.. that would be kind of wacky, given that the best you could do against a big battleship (22+ sensor strength) would be (assuming tech2 and good skills) 8/22 ~= 36.4% and I was able to use my blackbird to jam a Dominix, I think, for a good 10 minutes or more, straight, without the jam breaking.

Probability wouldn't be on my side there, since I believe that sitation works out to 20% chance for each full 4-jammer pass to not jam, and they're 20 second cycles. Not breaking for 10+ minutes would be some damn good luck. Been a while since I did real probability math though, so I could be wrong.

From http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=229998&page=1#5


For your 3x8/22, I calculate 71% chance per cycle. If you had 5 mounted it would have been 90%. To do that for 30 cycles would be damn impressive.

[insert Morphiend's sig here]

I was considering a resub, but this thread scares me. No wonder why I gave up on this game.

For fun I calculated how many jammers you had to fit to get a 50% or higher chance of jamming the battleship for 30 cycles, and it works out that you need just over 98% to jam each cycle for that to happen, which translates to 9 jammers. With three, you should have like .017 % chance of pulling it off. If you managed that, I think you should start doing the BPO lottery asap!

Actually, I my example was more of an indication that I think these new jamming theories, unless they can be backed up by devposts, are likely bullshit.

But we can test this tonight if I have a volunteer.

I would like to test, but from the jammers side. I want to get some experience piloting this beast this weekend when I can find some time to be on. Any takers?

We can practice on my Ferox. If we can to build a Raven real quick, we can practice on one of those.

Doesn't Yoru still have his personal Raven?

Sold it off so I can get an apoc first, then a scorp. The Raven wasn't generating any revenue since we don't have 0.0 ratting access, so I'm buying a mining battleship tonight and then using the proceeds to get into a EW battleship.

How will a Scorpion produce more money than a Raven?

But I totally understand the Apoc....they're pretty when they're firing barrages of lasers.

It won't, but it's a massive EW platform, which we need more than slow-firing torpedoes right now. It's also half the cost to build and keep insured.

What's an apoc?

apocalypse

If somebody wants to collect all the megacyte deliveries, I think we could swing it.

I believe a maxed out scorp pilot (BS 5) with maxed out EW skills (Signal dispersion 5) can get a little over 50% chance per multi spec against most targets

On a completely unscientific experimental basis, I had not too much difficulty keeping Hal impotent in both his Caracal and his Interceptor (I think thats what it was.. it was fast as hell). I had one racial and one generic pulsing on him with 2 others in reserve. They broke on me once and he made me pay for it, but the next pulse he was back to being unlocked.

Perhaps he can talk more about it from the Jamm-ee side.

I was flying a Blackbird and my skillz are:
Electronic Warfare - 3
Electronics - 4
Long Distance Jamming - 3

I was able to target somewhere around 70ish but Hal wouldnt sit still long enough for me to know for sure. As a matter of fact, the pesky bugger jumped me the first time and almost popped me while I was still tuning the radio and adjusting the seats on my new ride.

All in all, not bad, but I would like a little more experience with it. And I would like some live fire soon against some sitting ducks.

Zipper Zee

I've used Blackbirds as my primary PvP ship for some time now. This is how I have ended up fitting them for group PvP:

HIGH-SLOTS :
~~~~~~~~~~~~
[  50 |   25] 'Malkuth' Assault Missile Launcher I
3 x [   8 |   15] Small Nosferatu I
[   8 |   15] Small Nosferatu I
[   8 |   15] Small Nosferatu I

MED-SLOTS :
~~~~~~~~~~~
[  50 |   25] 10MN Afterburner I
4 x [   1 |   50] ECM - Multispectral Jammer I
[   1 |   10] Sensor Booster I

LOW-SLOTS :
~~~~~~~~~~~
[ 500 |   30] 1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates I
[   0 |    3] Capacitor Power Relay I


This is admittedly an extreme setup. Almost all the powergrid goes towards the plate in the lows. The problem is that    blackbirds are often chosen as targets, and the plate will give you a chance to warp off. There is really nothing useful for group battles in the high slots.

A variation of this that I often use is to use racial ECMs instead of the multispecs. Those have much longer range - at least 120 km if you got decent skills. The sensor booster helps with this. If you do not have that, you'll not be able to lock at that range. If you manage to keep at this range, not as many ships will be able to hit you, which will again help you to avoid being targeted by too many ships. The afterburner helps you keep this range, although in practice I rarely use it. Be prepared to lose alot of these in group and fleet engagements.

If you use it solo, use a smaller plate and heavy missiles with one or two medium NOSes in the highs. One on one, this is hard to beat for T1 battlecruisers or smaller. The worst opponent is fast drone users. Once they manage to sic the drones on you, you usually have to warp off.

I came here to post 1600 plate!!!!!111 but it's been covered.  Your role in a BB is to survive long enough to get at least a few jamming cycles in, damage dealing is way down the list of priorities so don't feel bad about using small guns.

One of the more interesting approaches to jamming that i've seen was posted on eve-griefer; essentially, instead of fitting multiple racials and whatnot, fit 2x Caldari (or 3 if you feel like it. I think the thread i read was in relation to a Scorpion and not a BB), and howevermany else tracking disruptors. Essentially, this covers both the primary missile users (Caldari) and the guns users (everyone else).

I've not seen this tested, but it sounded damn good in theory.

I on the other hand feel even more compelled to try it after reading all these loadout threads.

*is a math whore*

ONE OF US!  ONE OF US!

/bump


Are they can more setups that people know about now?  I am heading towards ECM by training for a Falcon (Recon Ship).

Necro is bad m'kay

Yes. I can't believe I missed this thread.

THERE IS ONLY ONE BASIC FITTING FOR A FALCON THAT IS WORTHWHILE. If you use ANYTHING ELSE you are WRONG. Seriously. I am not even joking about this. Don't fit your falcon with anything else.

High
  1x Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
  3x Wildcards (Mix/Match from: Probe Launcher, Cyno Generator, Remote Armor Rep or Weapon System of Choice)

Mid
  1x 10mn MWD II
  1x Sensor Booster with Targeting Range script
  1x Enfeebling Phase Inversion ECM (Minmatar Racial)
  1x 'Hypnos' Ion Field ECM I (Gallente Racial)
  1x BZ-5 Neutralizing Spacial Destabilizer ECM (Caldari Racial)
  1x 'Umbra' I White Noise ECM (Amarr Racial)
  1x Wildcard (Choose From: Shield Extender or Additional Racial ECM (usually an extra Minmatar or Caldari))

Low
  3x 'Hypnos' Signal Distortion Amplifier I

Rig
  2x Particle Dispersion Projectors (+20% ECM Range)

Note that the ECM modules should be best named rather than T2 as they are significantly easier to fit, use less capacitor, and have the same jamming strength.. If you have Recon 4 and want to fit a Recon Probe Launcher you will need to use an F-90 sensor booster rather than T2 to make it fit due to CPU.


Blackbird is a toss-up. I personally fit (well, that's a lie, I fit this with T2 ECM/SDA)

High
    3x Heavy Missile Launcher
    1x Salvager
Medium
    1x 10mn MWD
    1x Sensor Booster w/ both scripts
    4x Racial ECM Jammers (rainbow-fit, one of each)
Low
    2x Signal Distortion Amplifier I

Some people like to swap out one low for a 1600 plate. In smaller battles it can work, in larger ones (more than 10 craft on each side) it doesn't matter. DON'T USE MULTISPECS. I can't stress that enough. They use double the cap and have half the range of racials. They aren't all that strong, either. I also rainbow my jammers since in larger battles you can always find more than enough targets to jam, and when you have a few blackbirds in fleet there's nothing worse than all having one or two racials and leaving half the enemy fleet unjammed.

Why the MWD on the BB?

For empire wars I'll do 1 of each plus 1 (sometimes 2) ECM for targets I'm expecting (ie: I'm expecting some ravens, so I'll have two caldari racial ecms and 1 of each of the other 3).

Since I'm usually 130km out in a BB, I don't see what good a MWD does except suck your cap size down.

It might be to be able to burn away and warp to gate when gang needs to move or retreat.  I can see the MWD being used to give you move time to warp out when fast tackling ships are approaching.  The falcon can handle the MWD longer with ECM modules activated due to the role bonus of 80% reduction in ECM Activation Energy required.  Those are my guesses.

Always, ALWAYS fit a MWD. In this game, mobility is key, mobility wins fights. That's why the vagabond is king of the HACs.

You'll need to burn farther out from your target since you fight at longer ranges than you generally get a warpin for. You'll need to burn back to a gate you just jumped through. You'll need to burn out of a bubble. Since you're fleet support, you'll get bubbled a lot along with the rest of the fleet. Since you're tissue paper, you have to be able to escape that and warp off ASAP.

The ability to do all that is well worth 1 racial ECM.

These two.

Is there a way to take all proposed setups for the BlackBird and put them together.  Then place that post or new thread into the Ship Fitting Index?

I'm going to resist saying the catchphrase all over the eve-o forums right now.

I fly falcons, and you have the setup I use, I have recon V so I can fit better stuff but my racials change depending on the situation. I usually never fit guns in the high since your main job is support, and having a weapon in the high means you are going to try and get closer. In a big fight this is stupid, just get your recon launcher, cloak, cyno, and maybe a remote repping device. If I know I am going to fight with someone like AM, or CVA and their enemy will be mostly minmatar, it would be stupid to fit one of each jammer type. You are fine with all minmatar. You can get offracial jams pretty easily with a recon V falcon.

If I am raoaming I'll use rainbow jammers because you have a higher chance of hitting a multiracial gang than one of a single type.

Also, with my skills and fitting and ship, I get 200+ optimal jam range, that means stay 200km away from the fight. you shouldn't be right next to them and that way you can warp out cloak warp back in when you get in danger.

For small gangs a 1600 plate BB will do just fine.  As for the jammers to fit, that is situational.  Much of what you see are nanogang raiders these days.  If you have the chance ALWAYS fit against the enemy.  I do not mean just avoiding the multis.  Fitting to shut down important parts of your foes is critical.  For example, nano gangs will usually be mini heavy.  Vagas, rapiers, huggins etc.   I also see a decent amount of Caldari.  Fit to shut them down.  Do not be afraid to dedicate all or most of your EW to a certain faction if you know what you are likely to face.  Sure you will not be able to jam everything but picking your fights is part of the game.

Oh and hi f13!   

Of course, you also run across a lot of Ishtars in nano gangs.  Not as many as vagas, but lots.

see, this is what I mean about knowing who you fight =)  I believe the general flavor of nano gangs is quite regional.  We see very few Ishtars by comparison. 

Honestly, we really do see a little bit of everything.  Vagas and rapiers are common of course, but the other day a gang of three nano-sacrileges came through armed with missiles and did a lot of damage.

where I live if there are nano sacs they are probably US! =)  I am always interested in hearing about trends in other parts of the game.

They're incredibly effective for DPS at speed unlike gun-based HACs because they don't suffer tracking issues while orbiting at high velocities, and they don't suffer from DPS attrition like Ishtars do once the drones have all been scrapped.  These guys would buzz in at 40-50km and fire off a few volleys then move out beyond drone range.

I agree the nano sac can be a useful weapon.  We tend to resist such concepts though.  True Amarrian ships for True Amarrians!  Plus I hate the nano wankery craze.

Counter, a couple of tacklers and blackbirds with racial ecm.

How not to fit your BB (http://f13.7mph.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=679)

To be fair, he did managed to jam me pretty quickly, but I'm betting it took all five of his multispecs to do it and I had already sicced my drones on him.  He got away after suffering major damage and warped right into the loving arms of the rest of the fleet.

On another note: do not EVER warp your BB to within 20km of a tackling ship.  Noob.

Don't be like this guy (http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/223168/fitting#items) either. Edit: Whoops, endie got him too and posted in the ecm thread.

Seems like he wanted to solo you, Phildo.  It might have worked if he used racials on you with a web and warp jammer.

Would have worked great if he'd been able to break my tank and I hadn't had four guys in a nearby belt hunting him too.  His backup: Ishkur, Vexor.  Mine: lots of Drakes and a kestrel.

Go Phildo! \o/