f13.net

Befuddled. Again.

I've got my Rupture, and would like to fit 180mm or 220mms on it (or just use the 425mms). But I want to hit Frigates to. There seem to be a few different variables in determining this hitting:

Ammo size vs target size. This is mentioned in the tutorial. Medium ammo is going to have a hard time on Small targets.
Question: Would a Target Painter, which increases the signature of the target by 25%, make a difference here?

Tracking speed. Some stuff flies faster than the guns can turn, and there's transversal velocity to consider.
Question: Would a Tracking Enhancer/Computer or two help against Frigates if I'm using a medium-sized gun? I already use a webber and have learned to "Keep at Range".

Gun size.
Question: What really is the significance of 180mm vs 425mm and in between? Doesn't seem to be the ammo.

What is your current setup? What is your normal M.O. in combat? I fly a Rupture and have no trouble at all mauling frigates- they generally last less than 10 seconds when I get into range.

In response to the first two questions, yes and yes.   Plus, the bonuses stack, net effect of "kaboom."  I don't use tracking 'puters myself, just the lowslot mods. (Gyros and Track Enhancers for projectiles.)

Getting a 'named' webber or target painter will also help you more than just using the base ones.  If you're like me and prefer just using drops you could be a while before you find a named painter.  I just got my first one ever on Saturday afternoon while clearing the Neesher rats.  Seems like you get tons of named webs, tho.  The "langour" ones in particular seem the most common.. about 1/3 of the webbers I find are of that type.

The problem is, the more toys you stack-on and use the faster you suck capacitor. (and those painters really suck it if you don't train up the skill.)   So combining them might be ok for PvE, but would be death in PvP (particularly if you're NOSed)

As for the difference between a 180mm and 425mm:  The last time I figured out the DPS myself they were fairly similar.  I thought this was odd, as the tracking of the 425s is a lot worse, then I saw there was a very large thread on this in the Ships & Mods Eve forum.  Seems like for Med ACs there is an 'oops' in the math, so using the slower, harder-hitting guns isn't really an advantage right now.  

If I understand right, the 425s are supposed to hit a /lot/ harder and possibly have a lower ROF, to make up for the slow tracking but right now they just aren't set-up that way. This is something that might get addressed in a future patch, but right now means you're just using slower guns, so you hit less often in the transverse.

Target painters do help Cruiser class weapons hit frigates. I don't use guns so i don't know specificallyy how much it would help (turret tracking im not familiar with) but on my Caracal i use Heavy missiles exclusively. If i run into a frigate heavy belt or mission i just pop out and equip a target painter or sometimes i just run with one equipped. Adds about 20% damage. YMMV.

The problem's been I haven't had any real time to get into the game to fly to other regions to find the 180mms I want to buy. So I either have a full set of 425mms or the Small AC 150mms. The 150s totally out-perform the 425s in my experience against Frigates, but it's not a fair comparison from what I've learned since.

I've also got two named Assault Missile launchers, and could go three if I wanted, but I'd rather figure the AC thing out. So tonight, unless something else happens to (again) keep me planetbound, I'm getting in, finding 180mms (and picking up a few 800mm plates for storage) and trying again.

Thanks Merusk! I've been using named webbers.

I run dual 180mms on my rupture for what it's worth. If you're going to stick with minmatar you should get Gunnery to 5 and train trajectory analysys up to 4 asap. That'll give you a 20% bonus to falloff which helps AC setups quite a bit.

180s are small, right? You should at least use 220s- half the fun of flying cruisers is the bigger guns! I recently switched from 425s to 220s  (to avoid cap problems) and have noticed no real discernable difference.

Rupture Frig killing guide-

1) At max range, start lobbing missiles (if you have any)- I use Thunderbolts (heavies)
2) Turn on AB, head for nearest target
3) at 10km, turn on webber. If you have a nos fitted, start it up as well.
4) At about 8km or so, start firing autocannons.
5) When you get to 1000-2000m (depends on the optimal range of your guns with your fav ammo loaded), turn off AB.
6) Use the 'keep at range' button to stay near your optimal range
7) DO NOT ORBIT. This just adds to your transversal velocity and makes it harder to hit stuff.
8 ) If there are multiple targets, focus all your fire on one at a time- this keeps the damage you take down to a minimum (less things firing at you = less damage).


If there is a mixture of frigs and cruisers I generally kill the frigs first (under the #8 logic). They go pop faster, lessening the # of opponents that much quicker.

Dual 180s are Medium. Super high ROF.

Link so this post isn't useless (http://eve-online.com/itemdatabase/shipequipment/turretsbays/projectileturrets/autocannons/medium/2937.asp)

Ahh ok. I have never seen them in game- they must be relatively rare.

Plenty in other regions apparently. I hopped on my alt and just bought 8 of them for 20k a piece near Jita. I took a look at that offline Market Browser. Sure 'nuf they're all over. Just not anywhere near us :)

Thanks for the advice on the frig killing. For me, everything changed when I started doing 'Keep at range' last week. I was still using 150mms, so am eager to try 180mms tonight. I may hit less, but probably for more damage each.

Also, Nija, yea, I'm about 30 hours away from Gunnery V, for that exact purpose. I got myself the Targeting Computer thing that required Trajectory Analysis, so it's good to hear there's the falloff bonus as well.