f13.net

Scrappers are the damage outputters and tankers the damage absorbers.

Now I may be offbase but I can see the potential for an increasing issue with tankers and scrapper differences and please correct me if I am wrong.

Currently, it seems scrappers can arguably get close to tanker level defence but only one tanker build prenerf could get close to a scrappers damage output. As a direct result of this, there are way more scrappers than tankers and fire tanks > invulnerabilty ss tanks > all other tanks.

Crossover builds (invulnerabilty or reflex scrappers and fire tanks) allows people to optimize - high damage output, total control of mobs via provoke, and very high damage resistance/avoidance.

Thus comes nerfing. Developers might incorrectly react by reducing provoke's effectiveness in combat (via recast times etc.), increasing mobs ability to damage/avoid damage from characters lower level then them (i.e. revert to EQ style mobs) and then increase damage output of scrappers to placate the many many scrapper population base (a la EQ and druid placating over the years)

The result of this could be something that happened to EQ and classes there:

Scrappers see their reason for being = damage output only and most hand to hand blaster templates can easily outdamage them already.

After nerfing fire tanks all tanks may be less effective and less played - no damage output, no way endure a combat if soloing, no damage mitigation and no control of mobs in groups or runners in solo play with slow timers. They will suffer the same fate as did the warrior in EQ (until the release of GoD).

Maybe as an alternative to deal with this potential issue:

1. Do not allow crossover templates (i.e. scrappers should not be invulnerable and fire tanks should not have damage output rivalling scrappers and blasters) that can have best of both worlds to begin with.

2. Make provoke a tanker only ability OR have its effectiveness be much higher than other classes via general pool choices similar to the way leadership skills are much more effective with defender templates.


Can people provide some feedback who are in these builds at levels higher than 30 - I would value your feedback/input.

Cheers,
Grind

Personally, I think the Tanker's real issue is that they're comparitively somewhat boring.   After all, you're focused on fairly passive gameplay - taking damage.   But then, I haven't really played a Tanker all that high up - they do have some interesting looking crowd control powers, like Mud Pots.

I'm surprised Scrappers are finding reason to whine.   They're a very solid, well rounded Archetype.  Don't fool yourself: Scrappers are not *nearly* as durable as Tankers, especially when a Tanker can combine damage absorption powers and take 0% damage.   (It'll be bumped up to 10% minimum damage in an upcoming patch.)   However, that Scrappers can take abuse at all is more than most classes are capable of.   Scrappers have to be the most Solo-Capable class in the game.

Scrappers should pipe down and let Controllers step up to the plate.   I really, really wish I could solo with my main Controller.   However, at level 17 my damage output is abysmal - it takes me a full minute to take down an even con minion.    Unfortunately, my main Controller is a Mind Controller and never gets pets, so that damage output is going to *stay* down.   Confuse isn't an answer, as damage done by confused foes does not count towards experience earnings.

I think this goes to a fundamental problem that has plagued many MMORPGS.  In Everquest should a Paladin tank as well as a warrior?  In shadowbane should a barbarian tank as well as a warrior?

In CoH right off the bat I equated the Paladin/barbarian/shadowknight classes to a scrapper in CoH.  Not exactly the best damage dealer, not exactly a tank.

These melee hybrid classes are problematic.  They either displace the warrior or get they get displaced by the warrior.  The balance just does not seem to be achievable - at least so far.

The ideal situation that represents balance is zerging.  The tank controls most but not all of the villians and the scrapper offtanks.  That's is their best role I think.  Currently that does not come up too often though.

But right now - I am starting to think the money is on the scrapper - X / invulnerability build.  It will replace the tank unless a serious high end to the game is introduced.

I play both. To be blunt, this issue is horseshit. There's no controversy here, aside from some "grass is greener" whining from board trolls and related malcontents.

I play a fire/axe tanker, an ice/axe tanker (if any subclass has issues, it's this one), an invul/energy tanker, a katana/regen scrapper, and a broadsword/invul scrapper. All these builds have strengths and weaknesses. They all can find roles to play in any group I'm inclined to join, and they're all fun. They also all overlap to varying degrees.

If you think tanks can't do damage, then you've never made a proper axe tank. Fire is preferred for END recovery (and not because of an underbalanced skill), but any axe secondary that is heavily enhanced will do enormous--almost scrapper level--damage. I play scrappers, and axe compares very well with broadsword. You'll never have the ability to sustain damage output like a regen scrapper, but you can put out frontloaded damage as well as any. Fire is simply best at maintaining it.

Invul as a secondary skill lacks some of the extreme ability of it as a primary. However, an invul scrapper can tank pretty well...at later levels. They still lack hit points, though. They can deal with small groups of enemies, but nothing like what you'd see in a TF mission. They also tend to have the same endurance issues as tankers.

These classes are customizable to a large degree. If you're smart (operative word here) you can make your own role. If you're a bandwagoning mouth-breather, well, then you post senseless whines on the CoH forums. The tanker forums at CoH.com are a disgrace and it's almost embarrassing to admit to being one after reading that drivel.

I think this is a bullshit whine controversy. The only scrapper build that I think might approach a tanker in "tankability" is the regen scrapper (and maybe invuln, but I haven't looked at that build). As a marital arts/super reflexes scrapper, I can attest that reflexes WILL NEVER be as effective as a tankers extra hit points and damage resistance abilities. It just will not.

Tankers are just not as dynamic as the scrapper, especially at lower levels. But they damn sure can take a helluva lot more punishment than the scrapper, and it will only go up as the levels increase. A scrapper might be an ok tank in a pinch, but will never equal a tank in taking damage. Ever.

What he ^ said.

Qua Fin Ti
Katana/Regen scrapper

Word.  At level 24 I have over 1000 hit points.  On top of that, I've got physical, energy, and element damage reduction along with combat jump and invincibility.  I can and have waded into a sea of oranges and reds, slapped down an AOE taunt, and taken the beating (with some heals, natch) while every one else wittles around the perimeter.  A group of whites can forget about substantially decreasing my hit points.

I know of no other class besides the tanker that can even come close to pulling that off.  Granted, my damage output is for shit, but I can take an ungodly beating for my level.

At least until the next patch and the 90% cap on damage reduction.

Personally, I don't really care how much damage I take, as long as it's managable. Uncontrolled incoming damage is the killer. This is the concept behind the regen secondary of the scrapper. The problem is they don't have the damage pool to really soak up big hits.

Invul scrappers actually do better, but it's still a secondary skill and they don't get the abilities themselves as quickly as a tank. I play both a invul/energy tanker and a broadsword/invul scrapper and the damage taken is very different between the two. Basically, when something does get past invulnerablity, there's just less there on the other side to soak it up. It's much easier to get in over your head with the scrapper, where the tank can usually either take or take enough to get clear if things really furball.

Bottom line: scrappers can tank, but they aren't tankers. They just can't handle the extreme situations. They are skirmishers and play like it.

From what I understand, one of the big issues with scrappers was an insanely imbalancing combination of powers accheviable only at near max level. (which has since been addresse in the current patch)

It went something like this:
Get Moment of Glory (sucks up butloads of HP, makes you nigh invincible), Instant Healing, and the Health/Stamina from Fitness.   Instant Healing used to work while Moment of Glory was active, meaning the HP hit became meaningless, and when properly slotted you could have it running practicly indefinately.

Storys of high level regen Scrappers who were basicly invincible to everything their level, while still retaining damage output was what had people pissed.  Now that IH does not work while MoG is active, the whining has commenced.

Add in the Damage Resistance cap and now tankers will be important, because scrappers might be able to rival their defence rate, but wont have nearly the HP count to survive.

Since they both represent damage mitigation, I'm more concerned with Tanker/Controller differences than I am with Tanker/Scrapper differences...Which is why I don't think the nerf to Provoke is that much of a problem. It was getting a little too close to Controller territory.

Since Tanks also share similarities with Scrappers (damage dealing), they shouldn't be doing the Controller's job even more reliably than Controllers. Tanks should be doing the jobs of Scrappers and Controllers halfassed, yet with the most survivabilty of all three. That's a good tradeoff. They shouldn't be able to depart from that role to the point where it doesn't even apply at least in some way.

In the case of Burn + Provoke, it was putting both Scrappers and Controllers to shame. Since this is a game with archetypes, the lines have to be drawn somewhere.

Besides, Tanks now only have to ACC slot 1 CCing power, and they still rank 3rd in dmg dealing -- with the hitpoints to boot. Tanks have the best of both worlds. Tanks and Blasters are probably the only well thought out and complete archetypes to play. It's the others that need a little improvement.

SurfD,

Thank you for your remarks. This is exactly the type of information I was looking for - what has happened at the high end to scrapper and tanker builds.

I have more faith in the tanker template again.

To continue in the 30s then with my tanker, I will slot provoke two more times with increase taunt length and take fear to control true mob zergs that are incoming to the groups I am in.

Grind

Provoke still works OK, just don't count on it to keep +4 level mobs from running amok. If you're dealing with those sorts of situations, you'd better have a controller.

I've got one increase duration enhancement in my own provoke and it even did pretty much what it was supposed to on purple con +2 lvl mobs. Of course, I had a controller in my group, so provoke failures weren't very noticable. Still, blasters need to learn to do more than simply burn the END bar. I expect them to deal with their own yardtrash if they attract its attention, however.

We don't streetfight +4 level mobs anymore, though.

Unless you have played your char well into the 20´s you don't know shit about how this has changed the game.
Provoke was THE team saver power you could always rely on. I have a 32 fire/mace tanker and I can survive just fine on my own. But guess who's gonna die? Yes that's right, those whiny controllers..
They draw insane aggro with their cc and start to get 1 shotted in their 20´s. Hell, I have even seen it happen in Perez to a 10 controller who got zapped by clockworks. Insta death because the tank had no way to get aggro. It will get worse higher up.

The Burn nerf was expected but overdone. The main fault with it now is that the area decreased so mobs can still melee you outside of it.

Who needs controllers, defenders etc anyway? I team with 1 MA/regen scrapper and since the purple mob invincible patch we can kill anything that is killable. The poor group xp bonus makes non damage dealers very undesireable since we can no longer do big game hunts.

I'm just gonna laugh at all the people dieng now. I know I will not die because of this nerf.

The game was very fun with alot of options for different playstyles and I had plans to lvl plenty of chars on several servers if need be. Now it's just a grind. A boring grind.

Hate to break it to you, chief, but as a controller, I don't find myself one shotted very often.  

And before you say I don't know shit, I've played an earth/storm controller into the 20s so I know exactly how to get one killed.

While you might not NEED a controller, having played scrappers and controllers, I can say that fights sure as hell seem to go much easier with a controller locking down groups.

Now that it's slotted with SO accuracy enhancements, my mass disorient power (stalagmites) keeps entire groups out of commission until I can lay down individual fossilizes on each priority mob.  The only time I find myself getting killed in a group is when I miss on a particularly nasty group and I don't have inspirations or a healer.  Once I toss down freezing rain and earthquake, it's really a non-issue as the bad guys just sorta bounce around.

I played just fine last night until Comcast ate itself and my connection decided to take the night off.  

If anything, it's the people who don't know how to play a controller who will end up dead, but I have to say that our tanker did a damn fine job of drawing aggro the last two nights I've played since the patch.  And that was in random pickup groups...and you never know what you'll get with those.

Yeah, I'm not sure where that's comin' from. I almost never die, let alone get one-shotted. I just can't kill shit. Even if an entire group fucks up, my chances of dieing are still pretty slim. If my holds don't hit, my getaway powers will. The pet does half of the job anyway. And when grouped with tanks, that's about as risk-free as it gets.



I'll agree with that: the patch sucked. I wouldn't nearly be the lvl I'm at had I started post-patch..Yet it isn't as bad of a problem when SG members are still cool enough to group despite the bullshit.

The best way to get kicked from my group is starting in on the experience. I don't want to hear it...ever. I don't play to get xp, and I do NOT want to hear about how lousy your xp is, what it was like back "in the day" or whatthehellever.

I play to have fun. I could care less about the flavor of the month, your xp travails, or your theories on CoH game design and why you know better than the devs on this that or the other thing.

I enjoy a good rant as well as anyone. Stupidity, however, is annoying. The "you don't know squat 'cause you're not 120th level, etc., etc.," doesn't wash here. Provoke bots got nerfed and  damn good thing it was. This was becoming a huge nuisance in pickup groups. One trick ponies and a play-style that was a cliche in less than two weeks after release. Good riddance, says I.

I could go on, and make a couple of more points swimming about in my head, but I want to play my BS/invul scrapper. See you ingame! If your provoke bot is now useless, well, log and delete. See yah!

1 more time for good measure. As a tanker, the provoke nerf doesn't affect ME. It will however affect all others in the high end game.

So you say pets do all the work now? NERF! they will be next...

And your still wrong.  Provoke should not be a panacea, no one power (particularly not a lvl 6 power pool power) should.  If you can't see that, then you have serious whiners block and should stop playing before you burst a vessel.

AND provoke still works and works well it's just not guaranteed to work on all double plus uber-mega-mobs.

Sable Blaze,

Given the changes made, I see **/Invulnerability as potentially being optimal for fun and defense.

How are your defenses post level 30 versus equivalent level tankers - Do you do traditional tanking and have you taken much of the invulnerability secondary powers in your Broad Sword character?


My idea would be to kill my invuln/stone tanker and create a spines/invuln scrapper. I would maintain aggro using Provoke, Invoke panic, and DoTs. But I am uncertain how effective the defenses would be on this char versus my invulnerabilty tanker - How much of a degradation in defenses would there be going from invuln as a primary to a secondary?


Grind

I think you'll see about a 15% degradation in your resistances and defenses. Defense can be made up with power pools, but you'll take more damage than an invul tank. Additionally, you don't have tanker hit points.

Invul scrappers develop much more slowly since it's a secondary skillset. Your attacks are still most important. You kill stuff FAST. Invul just allows easier boss baiting and you can stand more and take it rather than running stuff around like a regen scrapper. You're still not a tank, just a tougher scrapper.

I've taken the base innate invul defenses against smash/lethal, TI, US, and invinicibility (mostly for the ACC mods). Nothing else. Though I may take energies near the end. Might not, either. Dull pain, of course, since it's going to be your heal.

I don't really see invul as being all that much better than regen. It's just different. I have fun with both. They play a bit differently, have different strengths and weaknesses. Both are fun. I don't think either is a real substitute for a tanker.

Murgos, I am not disputing that provoke was too powerful to be a lvl6 powerpool pick. In my opinion provoke belongs in the primary tanker lines.
It should be made available around lvl 18 or so. Before that provoke will kill the user.

But, my tanker is 32. I have seen the high end game. Anyone but tankers WILL feel the provoke nerf by then.

It is no coincidence that I team with a scrapper now near the high end game. Anyone else is dead meat in seconds if provoke misses or doesnt recycle fast enough.

I can and will live with the changes but a respec would be in order. For me to gain another lvl and add a few slots to compensate, I will need to kill ~700 even tank bosses. That is if I can find them without any invincible purples around that is...

Oh and no, scrappers cannot replace tanks as the main tank but they make an excellent 2ndary tank. This has alot to do with the fact that scrappers can resist stun&sleep better than most tanks so they are good to pick up the slack while the tank takes a nap(with his shields down).

If you don't know it already, that's why there are controllers. A group 4 or so isn't going to be some terrible penalty to your xp rate either. And if you're so concerned about that, then get a controller who can debuff too, with Radiation or Kinetics. You'll kill faster.

I still say the deadly fascination with fighting +4 level mobs is the real problem. It's the EQ-mentality at work and this isn't EQ.

I"m all for a respec myself. AO had problems in a vein roughly similar to this. Even Funcom eventually broke down and offered limited partial and one total respec. I've got a few things I'd like to correct on assorted toons.

Provoke being a power pool skill is a bit puzzling. Why anyone BUT a tank would want it is a bit of a mystery. Still, we don't need provoke bots. Good riddance to those. Again, I don't see the provoke revamp as a bad thing. Fighting +4 level should be risky as hell. There should be deaths. It's not something you should be doing lightly just for xp.

Erm, for most of it's 5 years of existance, EQ was about killing blues to maximise experience so I don't see why you think it's an eq thing.

I call it that mostly due to the relative difficulty of the mobs. You generally didn't fight groups of mobs in EQ if you could help it. The con system was entirely meaningless in EQ by Velious.

Any even con mob in CoH is toast when engaged by any reasonably constructed toon. Best xp is usually on yellow mobs (+1 lvl) for solo players. Groups could add a level or two, depending. In EQ, it'd be suicide to take on a small group of even cons. Solo play hardly even existed outside a few classes and then generally only in older content. We won't even get into EQ itemization and PC strength.  

EQ was built around the concept of groups of PCs engaging single, much more powerful NPCs. CoH isn't. Engageing groups of mobs is basic to CoH. EQ was about groups of players and single mobs.

Along the lines of what Sable Blaze is saying but what has struck me most about the recent spate of whining is that the vast majority of those not foaming at the mouth are actually pushing for strict class stereotyping.  Tankers MUST only tank.  Scrappers MUST only do melee damage.  Blasters MUST only do ranged damage.  Defenders only buff and controllers only control.

It's disheartening because one of the things that sold me initially on CoH was the lack of strict sterotyping.

That's never bothered me, really.  My main is a tank and my secondary is an empathy defender.  I truthfully enjoy being a support class (I include tankers in that description) much more than I do being a damage dealer.  And hey, since everyone and their brother seems to want to play scrappers or blasters I'll let them do the damage while I keep them alive.

Maybe it's just a lack of imagination on my part, but I get off on performing those roles well.  If I wanted to be a walking death machine that can get killed in two or three hits I'd have made one.

Shouldn't you be practicing fast ropeing out of the back of a Blackhawk or something?

Not for another year, my friend.  I'm still doing the drill sergeant thing.

Amen to that!  I hate that it might turn into EQ with just name changes.

I also notice that tanks and scrappers are starting to see how certain pool powers are more desirable and leaves less open for creativity.
Example:  Say I'm playing my ice tanker, well he sucks up stamina like crazy (almost as bad as my stone tanker did) and to keep on trucking I really need to take the fitness line (either health, hurdle, and/or sprint and stamina).  Sure I could get buy without fitness, but it really makes the game fun when you don't have to worry about wearing out.  Also, as an ice tanker, I have looked over at my ice armors, and probably the best armor is wet ice.  Wet ice is nice, but does not have a great amount of regular defense.  To make up for some lack of defense and resistance I could grab fighting and get tough and weave.  Again a trade off, as what I wanted (cool stuff like jump kick and super jump) is left off building the better tank super hero.

Of course I was never kicked from a group when I built my first stone tanker (okay...he was my second stone tanker) for not having provoke, so I don't think many people will be that critical on builds.

Provoke even when it worked like it used to was never really seen as vital to a tank until post 20. Few tank templates I have seen bother picking it up before then because you need to round out your defenses first or provoke dosn't do you a lot of good.

Provoke although changed is very handy as something to pluse like mud pots or the other pbaoe damage auras most tanks get. For things like earth or fire tankers provoke may not even be very needed because you can get most of the effect by diving into mobs and pulsing your aoe damage. Tanks get a big taunt multiplier on any damage they do so these auras can do a good job of making mobs stick to the tank.

I don't understand the point of the single target taunt for the most part if you want to agro a single target you just attack that target for the same effect. Coh is not like eq and rarely do you ever find yourself in a one on one situation where a single target taunt would be effective.

It also confuses me why the aoe taunt is a level 6 open pick from the power pool. This should be a tank skill not a power pool skill. How many blasters are going to want provoke,  or controllers, or defenders, or heck even scrappers.


Kaid

Yeah, I don't understand the allure either.  I use taunt simply to pull singles when I'm soloing.  When I'm grouped I turn on invincibility (which is an AOE taunt, although it does no damage) and wade into a group of mobs to get their attention.  Works like a charm, and the rest of the team can way laste to fringe bad guys that I may have missed.  The nice plus of invincibility is that I have a buddy who's pretty much always 10 levels behind me, but with it I can jump into groups of high level (to him) stuff and keep their attention without ever doing damage.  Meanwhile he can just blast away on reds and purples all night and get some killer xp at no risk to himself.  It's really a thing of beauty.

OMG SPLOITS SPLOITS GET THE NERF BAT

Taunt is nice for when I picked up rooted (and the inv build has one some what like it) and could no longer run around spaming my gash or brawl.  I got by with those two early attacks for a long time, but when I couldn't run around wacking stuff because of rooted, taunt was nice.

About the only other class I could see taking provoke would be a scrapper...but then that is way doubtful, as most would use a taunt to pull off one of the bad guys beating on the controller or defender or blaster.

When under US and something runs, I do one of two things: 1) let it run, it'll be back. 2) Turn off US and run after it and deliver the coup de grace on the hoof. Whichever you choose will largely be dictated by circumstances.

If some ne'er-do-well goes after the more fragile party memebers, well, just hitting buildup and going to town on it usually results in a cessation of whacking on said fragile party members...usually because it's dead. If it's made of sterner stuff, then I guarantee you'll have it's undivided attention after a built-up hack and disembowl hit home.

That's my view on taunt.

For fun I am trying to compare:

Scrapper (attack / invuln) vs. Tanker (Invuln/ attack)

Where the attack form is open to choice.  I am testing the idea that an "offensive" tanker with enhancement slots on attacks rather than defense may be more usable than an a scrapper with slots on defensive abilities.

I suspect the key is invulnerability.  With slotting you have to cherry pick the abilities you want - which is easy to do with attacks.  You typically are after only a subset of attack forms.  For a defensive ability like Invulnerability - it is almost impossible to cherry pick.  You need them all.  The best solution is to make it your primary skill set and then cherry pick by slotting (enhancments) all to the attack forms.

This is why i am curious to see if an offensive tanker Invlunerability/ attack is "superior" to a scrapper that tries to use invulnerability as a secondary skill set by cherry picking and assigning enhancement slots.

The most offensive (on the surface at least) secondary for tanks is axe. I my highest toon is a fire/axe tanker. She does play like a very tough scrapper. The main problem is axe is a huge endurance drain. I mean MASSIVE drain. This is primarily why I went fire; so I could emphasize the axe attacks and to get the END recovery from consume.

However, after playing broadsword and (to a lesser degree) katana scrappers, I've seen that it's very difficult to get damage over time equivalent in a tank. You can do burst damage that's pretty devastating, but once you've seen BS in action...well...axe tankers don't look so good. Partially it's a problem with the late blooming tanker, and partially the END issues. You can't get away from the END even with fully slotted Stamina. Scrappers simply use less END per hit, and they hit harder.

Energy secondary for a tank has some possibilities, but only at the very highest levels. My invul/energy tanker isn't anywhere near the levels necessary to see if this is effective or not. Again, the problem is it simply takes too long to get there and you have to play this toon to 30-odd to see what the deal really is. Energy melee is interesting in a twisted sort of way, but it's not a thrill ride playing this toon, though she tanks pretty well.

Broadsword/invul scrappers have some interesting possibilities. It's the most tank-like scrapper build. Hellish damage thanks to hasten/builtup BS primary attacks. You're not a tank, but you can stand there and take some surprising abuse. Using the invul toggles can be tricky, but it's also part of what make the toon fun. Again, Endurance is a real problem, but BS doesn't drain END as fast as axe...and it hits harder.

Of course, half the fun is getting there (unlike what some poor misguided folks think), and these builds can be pretty entertaining. I have fun with all of mine, depending on what I'm in the mood for. However, after playing my BS scrappers (one invul, one regen), my fire/axe tank feels sluggish and--relatively--ineffective. She can wade into some ugly groups, but really needs support for best play. The scrappers can kill faster, so they tend to need less support, but can't wade into +1 groups with bosses like the tank can (well, they can, but it's a lot trickier and you have to be prepared to run at any moment, where it's usually a done deal with the tank...until you run out of END).

A last point about invul, you don't need them all. For a scrapper you simply need the basic damage resistances and US. You can skip elements. Energies are nice, but can be put off quite a while. Invincibility is more for the ACC mods, but it's a handy replacement for TI when you get enough endurance to run it. Tanker invul IS better than scrapper invul. Signicantly so. However, scrapper attacks are much better than tanker ones, even axe.

I'm working up a Dark/Regen scrapper amd any doubts I might have had from the boards of scrappers being not viable have been utterly squashed so far (lvl 16).

My scrapper can wade into large groups of white/yellow (I mean Hot Zone type groups 9 - 11 of 'em) and walk out the other end practically unscathed or with at worst momentary downtime.  Solo missions with this scrapper are pretty much too easy taking on average 10 minutes or so to complete.  There is no stopping to rest just run through at full speed killing everything in the way.

This build is focusing much more on defense than is probably normal for a scrapper - fully specced will be 6 slotted fighting/tough and fighting/weave plus combat jumping and resiliance (regen line damage resist).  Fully specced out she should have 50% smash/lethal damage resist and 35% damage avoidance (unless I take stealth too, for 45% total damage avoidance, though 35% should be more than enough for anything short of +4 lvl bosses).  End is not a problem so far and probably wont ever be as I will be taking stamina also.

Of course I am only going to take 4 or maybe 5 powers off dark melee but then again most of DM's powers are not in the must have catagory.

This build may not be able to main tank like a tanker but it will, and does, do great damage and take very little damage in return and have almost non-existant downtime.

Well, most of the really stupid scrapper whining comes from trying to fight +4 level mobs. You WILL get stomped on hard if you're regen in these situations. Especially hard if you're reflexes, hehe.

I'm very happy with my scrappers. They're rapidly becoming my favorite archetype. Just tons of fun to play and you can do almost anything within reason. The ability to just continuously fight is very attactive with regen scrappers.

However, we tried some Positron TFs last night with several regen and dark armor scrappers. It wasn't pretty. Just way too many mobs and--in my opinion--too large of a TF group for having scrappers holding the line. Since it's a Vahz mission, it was expecially bad with the tidal wave of zombie vomit just impossible to deal with (I was wishing for my fire tank at this point, since she's well-nigh immune to zombie barf). I doubt my invul scrapper would have fared any better, since she has no elemental resists to speak of.

The real limitation here was +2 level mobs and just the lack of hit points of the scrappers. Personally, I think full groups in TFs is asking for trouble, but that's just me. I prefer 3-4 in a scrapper group.

I have to agree Regen scrappers are a lot of fun.  Reduced downtime, constant brawling.

I wonder if I should go take my Controller and dump a whole bunch of Endurance Reducers on his powers and see if he becomes more enjoyable.   I'd not be holding my breath, because the big issue my Controller has is his damage output is abysmal, but the reduced downtime it sure to help.

Bah, who am I kidding?  The best way to Solo the Controller I knew from the start:  Don't.    Unless you have incredible patience, Controller is strictly group only.    Though I never did try out a pet...

From, admittidly limited, experience illusion controllers seem perfectly soloable.  Spectral wounds does uber damage and resets quick enough to be usable without hasten.  Blind is an excellent hold + damage.  Throw in supieror invisibility and then the pets and it sounds pretty groovy.

I got an illusion controller up to level 6, it was about as painless as any blaster or scrapper I ever did.  Not that level 6 is a very good indicator.

Sure, you'll do good damage at level 6.   So did mine.   However, an important thing to realize is all classes do and take roughly equal damage when you're first starting out.   It scales out to their actual capabilities as you get closer to level 20.

By the time your Controller's hit level 17, like mine did, your damage is going to be pretty abysmal.    The saving grace some Controllers have is that pet damage is relatively good.   However, I'm hearing that second hand, having not tried that myself.

They're apparently changing some stuff in the upcoming content patch to make reflexes-style high defense more equivilent to the usefulness of resistances.  Whether it works or not remains to be seen.


And if your patience is that good, you are probably already enjoying Lineage II.

Admittedly, I also played a mind controller, and I'm pretty sure a power pool with 'Hurl Damp Tissue' as a power would probably do damage faster than mind control powers.  And I have yet to see or hear of a situation in CoH where 'sleep' effects are useful, and mind control has boatloads of them.  I deleted 'Alkiera', my mind controller, in order to rebuild her as something else.  I got to 10, and couldn't take it anymore.

--
Alkiera

Sable - thanks for those comments.  Ironically, I am working on a tank Invuln/Energy build pursuant to your comments.

Energy intrigues me because:

Energy Transfer = Absorb pain? (Empathy Defender)

I don't mean it literally - I am referring to effectiveness.  Absorb pain is the best single target heal there is and does so by using some of the caster's hit points.  It seems Energy transfer causes damage by using some of the Tank's hit points - which makes me suspect this could be a highly effective attack form that is END friendly for the tank.

But I am just speculating at this point.

I've heard energy transfer is simply sick damage. Very hard hitting, and the hit point drain is relatively insignificant. That's what had me intrigued by the build.

The problem is getting to it. I mean, this tank build isn't the most fun to play in your teens. Lack of heavy hitting attacks mean fights drag on forever. END cost is lowish, but with battles lasting as long as they do, you'll be lucky to finish a single +1 boss/minion group before a BS/invul scrapper finishes a whole mission. I think mid-20s would be better with a maxed out stamina, but haven't had the wherewithal to play enough to find out, hehe.

It's an amusing class to watch fight, though. Which is good, since you'll be watching those glowing fists a LOT, considering how slowly the tank kills. I should play mine more--she's probably my best costume design effort to date--but if I'm kicking a mort around for 5 minutes, I can't help but thinking he'd have been dead in 5 seconds facing ANY of my scrappers or my axe tanks. Patience will definately be a virtue with this build.

Controllers are wicked fun to play.  I haven't found a build that is as much fun to play until I made my new blaster.  The thing is that yes, we need groups to play.  I CAN solo with Seismic Shift now that I've added in some powers from the fighting pool.  However, until he has boxing and kick, his main damage powers are a whopping two (brawl really doesn't count).  I'm tempted to make a gravity controller just cause I wonder how good the damage on that "throw shit at your enemy" power is.  

What is fun about controllers (at least the lockdown type like Seismic) is that you get to rapidly cycle thru targets trying to lockdown as many mobs as possible.  With my fire/energy blaster (now that I have hover) it's very much the same.  At least while soloing.  With a group, especially with other blasters, I don't find myself able to lay down as much broad and diverse whoopass because others are doing just fine at killing.

Next "cause I don't play early enough to see you guys who have mostly outlevelled me" project is a dark/regen scrapper I currently have at lv 5.  I managed to get a blaster to 13.5 in one day, so I'm guessing I can do the same with a scrapper if I play my catass cards right.

Sable,

Ya for many tank builds the real test comes at the end - level 30+ since that is when they get abilities of greater offensive interest.  So the lengthy combats...

I have a level 21 Empathy Defender (main) and I notice his Fortitude cast (to hits, damage, and hit points all single target buffed woot!) may offer the same benefits regardless the level of the recipient.  In other words - great powerleveling tool.  Slot with some damage enhancements, and tanker damage starts to really look up when they receive this buff.

Yah, some support really makes the tank shine. It also shows up why the scrapper is so popular and so much fun, regen in particular. They can simply maintain the mayhem for long periods of time, or even indefinately if you build for it.

Tanks pretty much have to plot out a fight ahead of time, and if something goes wrong...well...just not much you can do about it other than take it. Of course, you can take quite a bit...

It's the feel of the classes in the game. Scrappers are very active classes, constantly busy (well, most of them) and very effective from the getgo. Tankers feel ponderous and slow, though very tough. Their ability to dish out punishment though is largely constrained by one power pool ability and the fact you don't get it until lvl20. Then you have to slot it up for any kind of real return.

I'm probably going to have to rethink some things with my fire/axe tank. Seeing how my scrappers perform gives you some ideas about how to improve tanker flexibility. The level 50 cap should help a lot in this regard. Hasten, buildup, and consume are pretty much key. Slotting them for the best synergy seems to be the correct thing right now. As for the invul/energy...no clue. This one...well...it needs more time than I have for the game right now.

About Build-up...

Which both scrappers and tanks get:

You think this buff adds a fixed amount to damage or a percent?

It makes a difference.  If the amount is fixed, then you want to use attacks with a fast recharge.  If the amount is a percent, it makes no difference really which attack you use imo.

The ponderous nature of tanks is a problem.  Someone on these boards said it right that in this regard CoH has not advanced this class far (ergo, that's why its fun to slot them for offense).  WoW has promised to make tanks far more engaging - and reports seem to reflect that.

Its fixed at roughly 50%.  I've tested it.

Yah, it's about 50%. For an ability that only lasts a few seconds, it can make all the difference in the world--especially for hard hitting classes.

I won't get into which abilities seem to get the most out of it, there's too many variables. I will say the ability to one-shot certain annoying enemies (vahz zombies) with broadsword is a god-send. In a similar vein, the immense front-loaded damage of BS is a real tactical advantage, especially when duoed with another BS scrapper. Very tough, annoying enemies can be dropped almost instantly making the rest of the fight relatively trivial. Of course, one scrapper getting knocked down in the first seconds of the fight can make what looked like a walkover a real knock-down drag-out...

It seems attack animations are the real limiting factor on how many builtup attacks you can get off. Some experimentation will reveal what order of attacks works best, but sometimes the mobs you fight will dictate this. Most of my experience with buildup is with BS, katana, and axe.

Hasten makes a huge difference as well. More attacks, and, more importantly, a fast buildup recycle in large or long fights. I have yet to have a boss last two buildups, they usually are at about 25% after one attack cycle (3-4 attacks with BS, 4-5 with katana).

Well, I thought it might be worthwhile to post an update. I did stop playing my invuln/Stone Tanker and started a new character named Spines. He is a Spines/Invuln scrapper and a real blast to play.

What I have found is that the scrapper gets the same powers of a tanker but at a much later time (ex invincibilty comes at level 28 rather than 18) and because of the lowered hps, you have more volatility in fights, but by and large, the defense is similar, i.e. within the range of 15% as posted by Sable earlier.

What I do get in retrun is much greater aggro control and vast amounts of it (via constant damage to all mobs nearby) with four AOEs to the build which I will fully slot you get the attention that provoke misses.

I also get sick amounts of AoE damage. At level 23 I am still comparable to the damage output of a blaster and my survivability is way higher (thought I suspect in future, the blaster will outstrip my damage).

Best ability of the template is Quills. Helps hold aggro enormously, animation is every 1.5 seconds, and continues when I am knocked back and various other disabilities, and given its low endurance costs, allows me to attack while resting for more heavier attacks. Very very fun to play.

I will keep you posted as to the templates effectiveness once I get invincibility - but I suspect that this character is far superior to my tanker and will only get better with the rest of the resist pool and two more AoE attacks.

Cheers,
Grind.

Remember that Invincibility also has a slight taunt factor. This cuts both ways, though. It's handy for keeping the vermin occupied with you and not eating blasters. But it'll alert mobs when you're incoming if you have it running (i.e. it'll get you mezzed before you can get US up). One alternative is to fully slot Unstoppable and support it with a fully slotted Hasten and Dull Pain. This does away with the mobility issues with US. As spines, though, I doubt this will matter to you.

Spines is very group friendly...for a scrapper. I've been seeing an awful lot of them lately, and the ability to go under US and just fire off AoEs is quite an advantage in blaster-heavy groups. I have a friend who's spines/dark armor and he is fun to watch.

However, I still prefer broadsword. I love those huge hits and one-shotting yellow minions with a lucky crit. BS is a true boss-killing primary, which is a role I enjoy quite a bit.

Yeah, very group friendly. I went to DA last night for about 40 mins and was able to level to 23 without risk. Upon reaching 24 I took teleport and slotted it with a reduce endurance SO and now just tp from villan group to villan group.

I am hoping that invincibility with get me even more aggro since I eventually want to aggro everything if needed and perform the tank duties.

At 26 i get my third AoE attack and coupled with provoke and invincibility, should have 5 ways then to gain aggro en masse without having to taunt or hit with lunge. I am actually finding that I am using provoke less and less with this build.

I have also got a lot of attention and see many more builds (and similar costumes) entering the server. With two fortitudes running (from my two friends) and one of them having leadership assault, my quills does 14 to 25 points of damage per mob per animation. Animation happens about every 1.5 seconds. The damage to whole groups of mobs (i.e. 8+) per tick is PHENOMENAL. couple a endurance reduction SO on the quills and it runs without draining endurance on the build (I have stamina but have not even slotted it yet).

I think the spines invuln template is one kick arse template, very uber and fun to play.

Cheers,
Grind

Spines is one of the most underrated power sets for scrappers. I think it's the only scrapper type that gets that many AOE's. I know a martial arts scrapper only gets one, at like 26 I think.

Spines is a really nice powerset. It gives a scrapper a good variety of aoes which most lack as well as the ability to use a decent ranged attack that can ROOT. On top of all that most of their powers are about as kind to end usage as anything I have ever tried in the game which makes for a fast paced fun little brawler.

Spines does not quite have the shock damage of some others but it is overall a very spiffy power set.

Kaid

The only problem being that spines look like deep fried ass.  When every move you do results in stupid looking bone thingys sticking willy nilly out of your body it's frankly just not a power I'd want.

One thing about spines is it lacks a really heavy-hitting killing attack. It's not really a point target powerset. It's about area of effect. This is good stuff, but there are times you have to drop an individual target RIGHT NOW and spines won't do that for you (instead you root it in place and let someone else worry about it).

Really, when you get down to it most of the scrapper primaries are very good. MA is somewhat problematic, but the rest work very well indeed. They all have somewhat different strengths that will dictate different playstyles, but they all work.

To me, spines isn't real superhero-ey. When I see spines players, I tend to think of them as mmog players, not comics fans. Not a bad thing of itself, just not for me.

I think that's just because the spines look so stupid.

I hear ya.  In this case the poster Grind has done a good job on appearance I think.  He has a muscular medevil appearance that is all black with bright yellow magic runes down the length of his body.  When the spines appear they are white, and sit nicely on the avatar.

In this case I think the asthetics worked out.  Grind  maybe working on an alt.. Spine(less) :P

You can't change the color of the spikes can you?  That's a bit of an oversight on the design end.

Just like you can't adjust what claws look like; there are thousands of Wolverine clones running around out there.

Were I Cryptic that'd be one of the major things I'd be working on for an update.  They've got a phenomenal character creation tool, but all of the power effects look similar.  It's fairly glaring, and after a while it does get boring.  Just a cosmetic change to power appearance would spice up the game a hell of a lot.

Different styles of claws would be nice, I admit.  The bit with the spikes though, it's not just the style of them (hey! my entire fucking skeleton is outside) its the fact that the are large, they stay out for a while, and the color is constant.  The claws, while boring, are at least on the small side.  The spikes are huge.  The ability to color them would have been nice.

I still can't understand why they included spikes as an entire primary power set as it is. I mean, how many superheroes do you know that have similar powers? I can think of one, Marrow from the X-Men/now Weapon X. And she wasn't all that popular from what I know. So why go to the trouble?

Not knocking the powerset, just can't think of anyone else that really fits it in the genre's lore.

They wanted to be original with at least ONE power I'm sure. All the rest were about as original as a pb&j. They really should've just stolen all the powersets from xmen. But I only say that because I'd rather have had access to Jubilee's powerset rather than illusion, which isn't really illusionary at all.

Yeah, but really, who wants originality in this genre?  I just wanted a four color comic book game with lots of whiz bang stuff.  Mission accomplished.  Freedom Force didn't really employ any "original" powers either, and it didn't need to.

My wish list goes like this:

1)Cosmetic choices for existing powersets.

2)New powersets

3)Destructible terrain (I know, I know, almost definitely not doable, but perhaps on instanced outdoors missions?)

4) New travel powers (Like super swimming if they ever introduce underwater zones, web/line swinging, tunneling, etc)

5) Capes, must have capes!

6) Changeable body types, so you can have transformations like characters that can grow, shrink, scream "Shazam!" and be transformed into a hulking engine of destruction, etc.

7) More body types.  Why oh why can't I create The Potbellied Avenger?  How about gigantic, but really fat characters?  Why no gigantic female models?

You guys are bang on a few things:
1. Spine characters are extremely hard to find a costume/look that it goes with and still looks like a superhero. It took me hours and a several playing attempts to get it right. But with the right look, it does look unique and stylish.
2. NO killer one-shots. I have lunge which can do over a hundred, but I am really interested in the AoEs for aggro control. I built this char hoping AoE would solve my issue of getting aggro since my invuln tanker could not keep it with single, slow attacks and the provoke change. So far so good.
3. If we could colour our spines, I would colour mine glossy ebony to match the character better than plain white with a pinkish tinge. Also tip the very ends with yellow to match my magic runes and to represent magic type poison. That would be very cool. It is too bad I am not beter with capturing and posting images or I would post my look and let you guys judge though.

Cheers,
Grind

You're thinking about how to keep agro with an active taunt and damage output, and that's where you're wrong.  I play an Invuln tanker and with invincibility (area effect taunt that also gives huge defense and accuracy bonuses) and unyielding stance I can out-control controllers.

I only use taunt for the stragglers that are on the periphery, and besides, it's a better taunt than provoke is and it's in your primary/secondary power pool.  Why open up a tertiary pool for an inferior taunt when you could be opening up actually useful pools like fitness and leadership?

Well, one problem with invincibility is scrappers don't get it until lvl28. If you really want to do the pocket-tank thing, you have to do something prior to that level.

Personally, I have no use for provoke. A whole power pool that's otherwise completely useless just for this miserable excuse? Although I"m invul, I don't feel particularily compelled to save blasters from their own excesses. I don't care for the whole provoke-bot playstyle that's been foisted on tankers. That's a very large reason I made a BS/invul scrapper.

Still, that's a call you have to make for yourself. Spines/invul can rise to this particular calling. Just don't forget your fighting pool...

Okay I gotta draw the line right there.  If you convince Grind on this point he will re-roll his build - again - and I'll be stuck powerleveling him!

Honestly though, interesting insight.

Yeah, but he was talking about a tanker, which invulnerability is our primary where it would be your secondary; we get invincibility a lot sooner.

Invuln tankers are the only one who actually get the PBAoE taunt, though.

For my fire tanker, whose only means of soloing is Burn, and things run _out_ of Burn if they're not taunted onto you, Provoke is key.

I would love a taunt effect on Blazing Aura, Icicles/Chilling Embrace, and Mud Pots.

Sometime after respec's implemented, ideally.

--GF

Statesman has started a thread on Tankers, asking people what some of the issues were. The damn thread is over 12 pages long now, but he came back and summarized what he saw:

1. Tankers seem to want bigger damage, and don't mind if they swing slower to do the damage. Still make scrappers outdamge tankers but close the gap some. In the same time period, a scrapper would hit twice for 35 each (70 total) where a tanker hits once for 50. I would be glad for that since my tanker takes forever to kill yellow lts, especially those freakshow with self heals.

2. Tankers have endurance issues. Combine all the toggles with weak attacks which make fights last longer and tanks end up out of endurance even after small fights.

3. Finally, at higher levels tankers no longer have a well defined role. High level scrappers can have just as good defenses as tankers, plus they can out damage us. We can do some crowd control using taunts and knockdowns but controllers are better at that.

There have been similar threads on every AT board (except blasters) at some point in the past.

Not saying he's not genuinely looking at stuff - but the outcomes have not been dramatic.

I'd prefer to hope that they aren't just going to make some ham fisted adjustment to damage and swing times.

Well, I've said this in my /sg repeatedly and I"ll say it here: the tanker boards on coh.com are pure, unadulterated havens of stupidity.

Tankers there want it all with a big "S" on their chests. Think EQ warrior and you'd be in the correct mindset. Tankers do have some END issues that I think do need to be looked at. However, damage-wise you have options.

Axe, stone melee, and energy melee can all do pretty good damage. You have to chose them, though, and slot them accordingly. You're going to need hasten. You're going to need buildup. You'll need to slot both of them, too. You're not going to have maxed defensives and maxed attacks. It's simply not going to happen. The morons on coh.com can't seem to come to grips with this.

For streetfighting and small group action an invul or DA scrapper can do a pretty good job of both damage-dealing and tanking. However, they don't tank hazard zones or task forces all that well. Simply lack of hit points.

Hopefully Cryptic will look very carefully at this issue. Tanks do need some help with endurance usage. Other than that, I think they're fine as is. Ahh, maybe move provoke out of the power pools. That I'd personally like to see as a fire tank. On the other hand, there's the distinct possibility of seriously screwing up the game. Cryptic needs to be very careful here.

Provoke has range that AoEs (incl. invincibility) do not. So IF you want the role of saving blasters it has a place in the roster, but at a cost of a whole pool.

Don't worry Moon. Since I use Unyielding Stance as a core ability I still need a longer ranged aggro tool outside of just teleporting into mobs to help hold aggro. No re-rolling for me on this issue - but do wish there were other useful abilities in that pool to take something strategic or of value in the game otherwise.


As far as moving provoke out of the pools and into a tanker roster, I am all for that and have suggested that on posts as well. It is core to tanking, not other classes (i.e. how may blasters take it as core to their builds...)

At level 24 I can easily tank reds and purples with one defender in the group. The freak show task force we had the other day prooved beyond a doubt that case with 10 - 15 mobs on me at once. Question is will I still be able to tank as well into the 30's and 40's. IF so, this scrapper IS the death of my invuln tanker. If not, at least I am having a lot of fun getting there.


Grind

While it's all well and good to slap the moron tag on anything you don't agree with, I wonder if you've reached the late 20/early 30 levels where tankers become completely unnecessary in any part of the game yet, to possibly have a feel for why people are bitching? I've done about 12 taskforces between the 25-30 and the 30-35 one in the last few weeks and not one had a tanker in it. In fact, the only reason there was a scrapper in it (me) is because my rl partner playing the game is a controller and wouldn't join without me. In almost every fight, by the time the first mob I engaged was dead, I had trouble finding a mob standing with more than about 10% of their hitpoints left and by the time I'd reach it, it'd usually be finished off by a blaster unless it was hidden from them.

In the latter part of the game, roughly coinciding to when blasters start slotting so's on their powers, there is rarely a group that would benefit more adding any other AT over another blaster. Most of the groups I've been in have had 2 or 3 controllers and the rest blasters, with a defender brought along for emergency heals if one of the controllers doesn't have empath as a secondary. No tanker needed or wanted, and that includes hazard zones up to Crey's, as far as I've got so far.

Scrappers at least can solo relatively effectively, but tankers have such huge endurance costs for relatively low damage hits, plus the need to keep toggle powers up to survive, that they are lucky to get through one mob before becoming very short on endurance. Of course they can slot out stamina and add stamina reducers to their hits but that measn even less damage; meanwhile blasters can slot their damage for 5 dmg/1 acc and have lower endurance and faster animations as well.

What really needs to be done is make blasters more group dependent but I doubt the devs will do that with over half the playerbase playing blasters now. So they either have to toss the tankers a serious bone or people just won't play them.

They seem to save the dramatic changes for the nerfs, like the purple patch and the recent nerf to controllers.

I don't think I've seen game designers work so hard at making their game less group friendly than Cryptic since release. The only large groups that make even half way decent experience post 30 are mostly blasters with controllers and a defender for emergencies, and even they cant match the efficiency of a blaster/controller duo in places like Crey's. Considering 30+ is where the experience curve goes exponential, I see less and less large groups, except in my supergroup where no one is turned away. Ours is one of the few supergroups I've seen where everyone seems to try to group together, most supergroups seem like a glorified chat channel unity wise. We did a bunch of task forces the other day (3 in a row on a Saturday) where we had 5 from our sg and filled the other spots with pickup folks and many commented that it was the first taskforce they'd seen with so many from one supergroup on the team.

I personally don't LIKE the big groups and prefer the small ones.  I have all my exp chatter turned off so I am certainly not making that decision based on exp.  Anything over 4 starts getting too crowded enemy wise for me.  As a fire blaster I can have some fun with it, but the scrappers and tankers get pretty much lost in the shuffle and become unimportant.  Sticking to smaller groups keeps the indoor mission badguy numbers at sane levels.

Hmm...

I think it should be worth noting that with COH I think a group of 8 any AT is a viable option.

My SG has two primary tanks, three primary defenders, two primary controllers and six primary blasters.  We have some scrappers, but they are mainly alts.  Overall the best group post thirty for debtless TF/Mission running is build around the two tankers, two defenders, two controllers, and 2 blasters.  When our primary tank is given about twenty seconds to assure aggro the rest move in and wipe out.

The game works great, now, one concession that I can see is that the Tank AT is not as fun as the rest.  It is lacking something and should have that boosted.  Personally I think more endurance and a bit higher damage would be good start.

The two big problems at the high levels in big groups is that A) the number of opponents is huge so AOE is king B) aoe damage for those who have it is so high minions roll over and die very quickly.

This leaves the scrappers and tanks looking for maybe a boss with some hp left to tank. Tanks are impressive at the high levels to the point of being almost immune to damage but there is no real need in the game for serious tanking. Scrappers at high levels can also tank just about anything nearly as well as tanks can but due to their single target focus they are left on mop up patrol. Controllers at high levels if they are lucky can play with their pets to do some huge damage. For those without pets they are kinda out of luck they cannot hold AV, have trouble holding bosses and minions and lt die so fast its not worth the effort to hold them.

It shows in how many folks I see rolling blaster alts after they see what the high end game is like. Myself I will stick with my friends in our small little groups where all archtypes still work pretty decently.

Kaid

Tanks aren't even necessary in the first 20 levels. If you're got controllers, you're golden for CC. NO AT is necessary at any part of the game. You can always dance with who you brung at any level of the game. I was under the impression that that was what Cryptic wanted insofar as gameplay is concerned.

My fire/axe tank soloes pretty well. She's damage oriented. People observe that she plays like a big scrapper. Yes, she does. She was built to. My ice/axe tank soloes OK. No great shakes, but, again, she's damage oriented and does OK. My invul/energy tanks soloes poorly. She's defensively oriented and quite frankly soloing is mostly frustrating. She may do better later on, but getting there hasn't been a thrill ride so far. The limiting factor on axe, though, is END usage. It's brutal. Axe tanks can do really good damage; they just can't do it for long.
 
I'd like to see tanker endurance usage looked at. I don't want them to be an EQ warrior though. One of several reasons I quit EQ was my class pretty much got pushed into uselessness by the incessant warrior improvements, whereas the hybrids never saw similar changes. Tanks and scrappers have a lot of role overlap. I play both and would rather not see either pushed aside.

I don't see any easy answers here. The game isn't meant to be role stratified. There are ways to get around not having any particular AT in your group. Tanks are very good at tanking (when built for it), but that ability isn't needed in most situations. Forcing them on groups by content so difficult that you MUST have them is just going down the same road EQ went down.

Tanker endurance would be a good thing to increase.  I'm not to happy about spending thirty seconds of a fight just standing and waiting for enough endurance to take a swing at a guy.

Interesting.  This is why my idea of a scrapper is really an offensive tank build.  Slot the Tanker for damage, and then defense (with what is left).  Energy is my preference here - not built him yet - but will someday.

I still see this discussion as a replay of a theme I have seen before - the problem of hybrid melee classes vs. pure warrior.  In EQ the Paladin vs. Warrior arguments continue.  Here it is Scrapper vs. Tank.

My lesson from EQ was that hybrid melees (monk, paladin, shadowknight) are more fun to play than pure tanks, more flexible and do the job of tanking well enough with some tweaks.

And C) experience slows down so much, anything but the most efficient killing yeilds barely noticable movement of the experience bar.

Just thought I'd toss that in.

Some have suggested the Tanker AT shouldn't have existed in CoH. Just make it one way to build a scrapper. I play a regen scrapper, not an invul, so while I can solo quite well, it involves picking my targets a bit more carefully. Dispite the insane hp regen, he really is weak on resistance and defence so if I jump into a small group of rikti and more than 2 pull out blades, I usually jump right back out. 3 of those blades hitting me at once is insta death.

I've got combat jumping, stealth and hasten for defence and resilience as my only resist option. I've heard people who went the fighting line for tough and weave can stand up considerably well though, and boxing from fighting actually compares quite well to the first attack in most scrapper primaries for damage and endurance use, so taking it early can open that line up without wasting a skill.

I dunno, my blaster has been in danger of being one-shotted since the late teens, I would call that a pretty big drawback.   Usually all it takes is one stun, mez or hold to get through and I'm working off debt.

My Dark/Regen scrapper kills almost as fast and doesn't have that vulnerability but go ahead and rant anyway.

Actually, I'll go so far as too say that after the early thirties almost every AT is a total powerhouse.  Controllers with pets are probably the most effective but they are followed closely by indestructible tanks, scrappers who are nigh indestructable yet can dish out loads of damage, Defenders who can dish it and buff it to ridiculous levels (mid thirties all those not enough slots for enhancer problems they have go poof) and of course blasters who just have so many ranged attacks they can really lay some smack down.  Of them all Blasters maybe have the most steady progression (though my scrapper build is I think as efective throught its life so far as all but the most min/maxed AE blaster) but I certainly wouldn't say blasters work with impunity or are 'teh big chez' of higher level play.

Do blasters have it easy?  Sure, but blasters aint the be all end all at high levels either, I'd give that honor to a fire or illusion controller or maybe one of the better scrapper builds.

Totally agree with Murgos here.  Everyone pisses and moans about the fact that all blasters get Primary/Secondary lines that are 90% damage attacks, but they never bother to look at the purpose scrapper secondaries serve.

Try actually looking at the class balances between scrappers and blasters before hooting your mouth off.

It would be interesting to actually get a direct comparison between the hitpoints of a blaster and a scrapper at various levels.  

Blasters have crap for hitpoints (just slightly higher then Controllers/Deffenders).  We need all that damage to kill stuff before it kills us, because we dont last long when under fire.

Scrappers may have equal (or slightly more) hitpoints, but due to the nature of their secondary sets, they are about 100x better at soaking up damage then a Blaster is, be it through avoidance, regeneration, resistances or health drains.  And dont even get me started on the fact that nearly every Scrapper secondary comes with a power to resist effects (your Blaster ass is headed strait for the hospital if that bloody Rikti boss happens to be a stun/mezzer with a bigass sword, and not a gunner with a bigass sword like you origionally thought)

We blasters die REALLY fast if we attract too much aggro before we can kill most of it.  Just try accidently droping an AoE attack on a large group of nazis in a mission before your tank has fired off his taunt.  I guarantee you have NEVER seen a hitpoint meter drop faster then that (full to floor before you can even think about clicking on a Respite).  And boy are we good at attracting aggro.

And the Blasters so called range advantage is not much of an issue when you get to the 30+ levels.  Many enemy minions have longer range on their ranged damage attacks then I do on mine.  I swear, some of those Crey Leutenants must have their Sniper Shot 6 slotted with range enhancers (which is a REAL bitch when their first two hits nearly kill you, and then they snipe you in the back from what seems like miles away as you are madly fleeing).  I have had Nemesis Leutenants shoot me (with a REGULAR attack, no less) from so far away that my Snipe is out of range!

Really, other then some moderately overpowered blaster sets (cough*Devices*cough) the whole ultra blaster idea is actually highly over rated.

And for the record, I play an Energy/Elec blaster, currently level 31, and I quite frequently now play only with another person in tow, simply because it drastically cuts down on my chances of eating pavement on a regular basis.  Spending the majority of levels 27-30 in debt has tought me that the Blasters motto should most appropriately be: We can dish it out, deep dish style; but fuck man, we take it like wet kleenex.

Like scrappers, blasters have to take some care picking their targets. At 34, I have 1046 hp. I did a kill 35 rikti mission in creys the other day and if more than one rikti pulls out a big blade I have to bail because 2 or more kill me in one round and being regen, my defence and resistance to damage isn't very high at all. My defence is getting better, with combat jumping, stealth and now hasten, but my resistance sucks so if one hit from a rikti blade gets through it's close to half my hp right here.

I think tanks already pay for their huge resistance and defence with low damage. Making them pay twice with huge stamina cost as well just doesn't make a lot of sense to me, and more, it makes the play experience much less fun, which I think is important in a game so 1 dimensional as CoH. If combat isn't fun for a class, what else is there? It's not fun sitting there waiting for enough endurance to recharge to be able to swing your weapon, it's kind of boring. That's why I dumped my axe tanker, it was just boring standing around so much. Personally much more than balance, I think every AT should be fun to play, in groups or solo.

On missions, for instance, my dark/regen scrapper isn't that much fun to play because evens are very little challenge for him. Solo missions with their groupings of 2-3 even level mobs are just rediculously easy and you didn't seem to be having much trouble with them tonight when we teamed either. I play missions mainly for the stories, which mostly are quite cool, because the challenge and experience for them mostly sucks. I guess they need to keep mobs easy like that because the other 3 AT's are so weak at soloing, so it would be nice if they could up that ability then make solo missions a bit more of a challenge. Either that or put a difficulty slider in like AO had.

From the blasters  I see out soloing, that changes in the 30's when your opening aoe takes down all the minions in the first blast. The one or 2 lt's or boss and lt go down to the second and it's on to the next bunch.

On task forces I've been on, where with a controller or two, two blasters can kill whole packs of mobs while my dark regen scrapper is still working on his first mob. The first time this happened to me, I felt pretty useless to the task force, it was like I was getting powerleveled. We had 3 controllers, 2 blasters, me and a defender and could easily have done without me, as I wasn't tanking. Before I joined my current SG, I don't remember one pickup taskforce where someone said, wait we need a tanker. The last taskforce I remember a tanker seeming necessary was the 20-25 one.



On single mobs, a well built dark/regen scrapper is pretty scary, but a few big knives can cut you down just as fast as a blaster, and mobs get the opportunity way more often because you have to be in melee range to do anything. There's quite a few times I've jumped in to small groups in Creys only to jump right back out again because 3/4 of my health disappeared on the mob's first free hit they get. Especially Freakshow and Rikti have a nasty habit of putting major hurt on you quickly when you get in melee range. The only ranged damage I've taken that was close to the melee damage my scrapper gets hit for was from purple snipers in Crey's. Melee damage is so much higher than ranged in CoH it's crazy. And Blasters can take enough pool powers to get as good a defence as I have, and have less use for most of their secondary line other than devices than I do. Most blaster secondaries have a bunch of melee powers in them no one I've met takes, except one guy playing a energy/energy blaster as a super lightwieght scrapper build, where he took all the melee skills and very few of the ranged ones. But that's off the track a bit, and it's an alt he built for a lark.

Maybe most blasters don't do it, but hover or combat jumping, stealth, and hasten all have defence and can be slotted for even more. They add up to a nice chunk of defence. Unless there is an extra defence bonus for scrappers, which I haven't ever heard anywhere, then a blaster could easily be avoiding as much or even more damage than I do, and I really don't get hit that often by even mobs.



Fire and Illusion controllers are certainly up there with the nastiest aoe blasters, I agree. It's actually pretty mind boggling how badly the other 2 primaries for controllers compare. The ice pet is a total joke and of course dominated mobs give no experience so mentallists are totally boned. I have yet to meet a high level earth controller, which says something, so I also have no idea how their pet shapes up.

As to tankers, no, other than fire tankers, the few tankers I've met at high levels aren't particularly powerful on the offensive side. Sure they can stand there and take minimal damage, but they have to just stand there waiting for enough stamina to take a swing, for comparitivly little damage.

As to defenders, maybe it's the build be the few defenders I've played with post 30 don't do much damage either. Maybe late 30's they have the luxury to slot out their secondary damage line to actually do some damage but none seem to up to 34, the highest I've grouped with.

In my early days, yeah, endurance was a problem.  I'm now 34, have slotted  Stamina 6 times, and have one endurance reduction enhancement slotted in each of my attacks (the other slots are all damage).  I can continuously attack for what seems like 3-4 minutes.  It just isn't a problem for me anymore.  Granted, I'm a super strength tanker, so I never used as much end as say, an axe tanker did, but I also did much less damage than they did.

So suck it up, bitches.  If you wanted to make a scrapper with a lot of hit points you should have made a scrapper.  I was never able to do it before, but I now solo groups of 6 minions, 2 LTs, and a boss all at around 2-3 lvls higher than me without any real danger.  Man, I love late blooming classes.

And so it comes to pass on October 6th.

The scrapper build - in this case invuln / spines - outclasses any goddamn tanker out there.  What a joke.

The scrapper and I (healer) - at level 38 - tanked and did the Terra volta mission without breaking a sweat.

On numerous other occasions, not only were accompanying tanks the same in damag mitigation as the scrapper - their ability to hold aggro was utterly inferior (hard to compete with AoE damage).  Oh ya - scrappers can kill - and quickly - something tanks even with the latest changes cannot do or do fast enough in Diablo styled combat.

The lesson - beyond COH - is that pure classes suck.  Devs can never seem to defend the territory of the pure class (tank or healer) from hybrid classes.  

Oh ya - I am not really a healer - but a controller - empathy is my secondary.  Healing is an extra for me - which really seems to perform about as well as any other empathy (defender) healer.

In EQ often (excepting high end raids) Paladin > warrior or Druid > CLeric.  This basic lesson has been applied with great brilliance by us to CoH.  My mate dumped his tank for scapper and I dumped my healer for a hybrid healer (controller).

Make no mistake - my friend and I enjoy pure classes - but we are optimizers.  Optimization has lead us - laughably to the same conclusions that we arrived at in EQ with results that are down right embrassing for other members of our SG that belong to a pure class AT.

Pure classes in MMORPGs suck - CoH - as a great a game as it is - has added another data point to our EQ conclusions.

Paladins better than EQ warriors? Obviously, you never played at the Time level. Paladins simply can't tank what warriors can and aren't even in the same reality damage-wise. Maybe things have changed with the lvl70 cap, but from what little I've read, it's business as usual in EQ with hybrids getting the short end of the stick.

Now...CoH...

I play at a BS/invul scrapper primarily anymore. I"m not in the same league as an invul tank when it comes to tanking. I simply don't have the hit points and I don't have the slotting to reach the defensive caps (aside from phyical, which you won't be using much post-35).

My damage output is pretty formidable vs. single targets, but as far as pure dps, I"m nowhere near a fire/* tank with burn. Period. Spines is, of course, a bit different, but spines lack point target damage. And spines won't even approach a fire/* burn tank in pure dps, either.

As for misssion and day to day tanking, yes, that I can and do bring more to a group than a tank...IF...my own groupmates don't screw me up. Which they do. Often. But hell, that's not really the point, is it?

Basically, CoH is built around flexibility. One trick ponies don't tend to fare well on their own, and can generally be supplanted in day to day activitity by generalists. However, in most MMRPGs, the specific, highly focused class tend to be better. It's true in EQ, it's true in DAoC, it's true in AO. It's not true in CoH and not true in EQOA.

Lastly, any invul scrapper can't do what invul tanks can. You can't tank +8 mobs and live to tell the tale. They can. The problem is (still) that you don't need that sort of tanking ability in 99% of play in CoH. Hence, scrappers tend to supplant tanks in most situations.

Flexibility wins out over specialization. Somehow, I'm not surprised. Tanks specialize in taking damage, but Scrappers can take it AND dish it out. That makes them more fun to play, same as defenders who aren't healer-focused are more fun to play than pure heal monkeys.

Having one specialized task in an MMOG means your playstyle revolves around 1 thing. Only being able to do 1 thing is not fun. That's the downfall of pure class-based systems where pure classes mix with hybrids.

I disagree Sable - but no I have not tanked at the Time level.

You a bright guy so I don`t think you and I need to go through many iterations of this argument:

(Bah foreign keyboard in cafe - can`t get basic punctuation)

Add 3 levels to a Pally and he can exceed a tank in tanking ability.  C`mon mate - the level expansion to 70 has not made much difference since many at the high end have not leveled to 70 yet.  They will - and like every other expansion - when that happens the Warriors lose out to the hybrid.

But wait... there is the latest uber expansion - you know the LAST expansion - no question there - you need pure tank and healer.  Until folks level more and get better gear - then you find the hybrids moving in.

(I am frustrated with the mechanics not you :)

So what your saying is - if you the type of player that can raids time in EQ - then you see the value of the warrior.   Not too many casual players log on to raid time in EQ - so the few that do by this logic will see the value of a pure class.

Today you cite Time as uber.  2 years ago - it was - Luclin I think.  Same pattern, same shit.

The last guild I was with - a year ago now - on EQ was number 4 on our server.  Our shadownknights tanked just fine.  It`s all about level and gear.  

The only place for pure classes - if any - is the latest expansion - when gear and level have not caught up yet.

About CoH - maybe you could let me know where at level 38 my controller (healer) and my scrapper (tank) can go to get our asses kicked to let us know we need pure classes.  There is nothing we cannot handle.  And when we have tanks in our group the scrapper tanks - since he holds aggro better can basically tank just as well (and kill much faster).

I wish pure classes had more attention by devs or eliminate them all together.

Well, the fact is with the new "paradigm" in EQ mobs, if you don't have some form of absolute damage reduction (i.e. weaponshield or defensive) you can't reliably tank in GoD and above. Period.

The fact is SKs and paladins with 12k hps and 2800AC get one rounded in GoD. SOE has changed mob ATK ratings some so AC again has a real role in your survivability, but you can still get one rounded. This is in contrast to bazaar-equipped warriors who could tank GoD...which is supposedly lvl70 content. Hybrids can't do it with Ikkinz-level equipment. Not reliably, and not the named. We won't even get into the warrior "spellbook" and itemization and what it means to the hybrids.

My point about tanks in CoH was that they aren't really needed. They are better "tanks" but there's nothing for them to really tank outside a few AVs. They can tank things a scrapper can't, but you can't kill stuff at +8 level, so they have no real role. I have no clue how Cryptic will address this without a purple patch rollback, which causes other problems.

As far as people getting to 70 in EQ...  A guy I work with who still plays EQ made level 70 within a week of OoW going live, maybe 10 days on the outside.  He admittedly took a couple days off work at the end of the week, but he made it to 70 pretty quick.  Apparently some of the OoW zones give very decent exp to high level people.  He does play with some uberguild people, but he is not in an uberguild.

And Sable, I believe you and jpark agree on GoD, that you _need_ a warrior to tank the mobs there.  I have, however, played (pre-GoD) in PoP and other zones with plate-hybrid and even well-equipped chain-hybrids for tanks. (Admittedly, the ranger was tanking in Ssra, and he was in elemental/time gear at the time...  But Ssra's snakes aren't really pushovers, even at 65.)

As for defensive... I was reading some printout regarding instanced 'tests' for the GoD expansion, and noted one of the tests had a mob who does mean things to people who use Defensive...  It's either deathtouch, or a nasty debuff, or something equally Bad.

--
Alkiera

Single Group my Shaman tanked in the Tower of Solusek Ro, for what its worth, even mini nameds. Once I tanked a entrance named in Fire, admittingly with both a Cleric and Druid healing me. Yes, we were bored like that.

So yes, outside of high end raids Plate-hybrids can replace warriors, with ease. And even on high end raids, Paladins are often used as rampage tanks as well.

With GoD came the return of the Warrior and Cleric, even in the Flag instances. So I heard, but then I heard they tuned down GoD encounters because of the whining, and afterwards you could tank with hybrids again. GoD was about fast damage, so you don't have to tank the mobs THAT long...

Damage output in GoD was so high on the trials and named that plate-class hybrids could not reliably tank even with 2800AC and 12k hps. I mean, that's the way it is/was. If you didn't have weaponshield to negate damage or defensive to reduce incoming damage, you could (and would) get one rounded. With the revision, the chances of this were reduced some, but it could still happen. That (and the warrior "spellbook") was why warriors were pretty much necessary for advancement in GoD.

For lesser content, sure you could tank with hybrids. As an elemental shadowknight, I was capable of soloing in Ssra...but it was 4 year old content at that point. In GoD I couldnt' do diddly in the trials. This (and the warriorGoD changes) were why I quit. I was a tank that could no longer tank relavent content.

In contrast, in CoH you have tanks that can tank, but nothing for them to really tank. Most content is trivial for them, but since they bring little besides a meatshield to the dance, they aren't really needed.  Statesman's proposed changes to tanker damage output may help this, but I believe they're still a ways out there, timewise. Additionally, they won't change the fact that scrappers can still tank most things a group will typically run across.

I think the posts above do a good job of clarifying things - but I will put my 2 cents in again.

GoD is not a new Paradigm.  You might still need pure tanks and healers for that expansion - but that is temporary.

After a few more expansions (with more levels and gear), GoD becomes old - and while the latest expansion will need pure classes the older ones - GoD (eventually) will not.

So ya I dont really think we disagree Sable.

High end raids are fun - but not many players have the time or availability for it - so outside tanking the latest expansion - the rest of us are working through older expansions with our hybrids.

And as far as COH is concerned - yup agree - but they should just eliminate the tank then.  No point in introducing a class for which there is no real content (ditto Empathy Defender - over kill - unless I heal a blaster who wants to tank).

You know, something about that idea strikes me a fundamentally wrong.  I'll have to noodle over it but my gut reaction would be pigeonholing a class/skillset as "does X and only X" rubs me the wrong way.  Maybe thats why I like more diverse charcters, so I dont have to play the same way every time I log in.  At any rate, considering how prevalent the Tank concept is in comic lore, removing it would not be a desirable thing.  Making the archtype more fun to play, now you're talking.

Xilren

Is it really that prevelant?  I'll admit to being fairly ignorant ot the topic of comics.  However, in what I have read, I haven't noticed any 'impotent invulnerable' heroes.  As far as 'really tough' characters, yes...  The Hulk, The Thing, Superman, etc.  But none of them were as obviously less offensively effective as Tanker types are over Scrappers.

The only reason to play a Tanker in CoH is to get access to different offensive powers than scrappers get...  I.E. if your character concept demands you use firey melee, or a big axe, or a big mace, or raw energy melee, then you have to be a tanker.  Unlike controllers, defenders, and blasters, where two archetypes share a powerset which is basically the same except for being primary or secondary(energy blast as blaster primary is more or less the same as the set for defender secondary, with different damage tables).  With the exception of Invuln, the tanker/scrapper defensive sets are completely disjoint...  and the offensive sets do not overlap at all.

I think when they left the 'completely flexible' system for the 'archetypes' system, something got lost in translation.

--
Alkiera

Alkiera, you are absolutely right about that... re: invulnerability and cross over powers/sets. which kinda goes back to the intial start of this thread..



Cheers,
Grind (aka Spines on my CoH server)

PS. as per what jpark has expressed earlier in this thread, we have levelled four variations of the spines build all into their 30's and near 40. All tank as well as tankers, damage as well as scrappers. Latest build tries to get single target damage like an uber regen scrapper, comes close, but with other benefits is in my books more fun to play with tonnes of options outside of either tanking or uber damage. Very fun.

Again, invul scrappers don't tank as well as invul tanks. They can't. They tank well enough for existing content (mostly), but they aren't in the same league as a tank constucted in a similar fashion.

It's a bit late to be worried about crossover powersets. Things are as they are, and I don't see any radical changes coming out. The continuing tanker changes should address the provoke bot problem. The time-scaling damage output should help tankers level more rapidly. Ice and Earth tanks should see some serious revisions in their powersets.

Once all that is in place, it's just a matter of new content for tankers to play in to show off what they can now do. I personally see scrappers and tankers converging in roles in the 40s. Scrappers will still have superior status protection and mobility (aside from invul) to rapidly engage boss level threats and tanks will hold the line and (hopefully) do enough damage to keep themselves amused.

Bump... this seems topical given the intial opposition a year ago...

Cheers,
Grind

And so on.  Well - what do you assholes have to say now?

About what?  (not that I'm admitting to being an asshole, asshole)

For a clue asshole - look at the start of the thread.  Attach your trailor park commentary as needed.

Aren't you the fiesty one!  Remind me never to tease you again.

You are dead to me.

Well, you'd have a point in waving the "I was right!" flag except that both Scrapper and Tanker defenses were nerfed, and scrappers were given more damage.  The problem was an across-the-board abundance of defense and resists, not specifically with scrappers.

I offer my sincerest apologies here Signe.

My return to this thread was mean spirited - so I expected the same back in turn - so I mis read the spirit of your post.

(I have a lot of job stress at the moment - and I let it affect my conduct in these forums)

Hehehe, from my perspective, I was trying to bump this thread since it had pointed out the need to fix an issue in the game - cross over builds, and how they will likely make nerfs/changes to address it in future...

COH developers openly admit that the changes they are introducing was to address this same issue, for example they clearly state:

"* Scrapper damage increased for all powers. Our goal is to increase the overall 'Scrappery' nature of Scrappers, making them melee combat masters, but not having Tanker-level defense. This change counters some of the general reduction in defense that Scrappers are seeing with this patch."

I.e. that differentiation is needed since, well, there is a problem to begin with that needed fixing!

From my perspective, I hate opening up ideas to be so sorely criticized to the point I stop posting. I kinda just wanted to show that maybe those ideas are not to far off the mark afterall.

Cheers,
Grind


ps thanks for the support and help in putting ideas together jpark.

Why don't I trust people who say Cheers.....

Oh sure... the guilt trip.  Ok... I feel suitably guilty.  Look at Alkiera's avatar.  It always makes me smile.  It's the smiliest avatar ever.