f13.net

Okay, hate is too strong of a word.  Be annoyed by, and avoid, are probably better terms.

Here's the deal.  My older sister had a drinking problem for about 10 years.  Around 2 years ago she joined AA and now SHE WON'T FUCKING SHUT UP ABOUT IT.  She's going out with a guy who quit his electrician job to become a substance abuse counselor, she feels the compulsive need to tell me how long she's been sober every time I talk to her on the phone.  The last time she visited me (when I hadn't seen her in four years, btw) she gave me a disapproving look because I had (gasp!) a 12 pack of Bud Lite in my fridge.

Honestly, I love her, I want her to stay off the sauce, but I just can't stand talking to her anymore.  Strangely enough, I didn't grow up with her, but we lived together for 3 years when I was stationed in Colorado Springs and I grew closer to her than I did the brother and sister I did grow up with.  Anyone have any suggestions on dealing with an AA zealot?

Explain to her that alcohol is still ruling her life, just in a different way.

I wish I could, man, but to be honest I just wind up gritting my teeth, because I really don't want to be some prick who sabotages and undermines her staying sober, because she definitely needed to get sober.  But Jesus, she's like a cult member now.  I've known Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientologists who are less hung up on their kooky bullshit than she is.  This is pretty much her reason for being now, and I just don't really feel like talking to her anymore.

I hate to be all impersonal about this because it's your sister, and it's clearly someone you're close with, but at some point you have to draw the dividing line - looking into what you know of her, her past, her potential, is it possible for her to not be either batshit on one end of the spectrum or batshit on the other?

If it's not, keeping her at a distance is probably all you can do.

If it's possible, then it comes down to finding a plan to slowly ease her into the idea that she's in control of her own actions, and that moderation is possible.

Of course, moderation is nice in theory yet a bitch in practice.  Case in point: I'm posting here right now. Blah.

Consider introducing her to meditation.  Not the hippie new age shit, just straight up, mind-clearing meditation.  Things that will slow her mind, make her more introspective, make her think more before she speaks.  Alcohol is simply the object; what you're talking about involves more deeper, interlinked aspects of one's personality, such as a propensity for addiction, a propensity for extremes, excessively focused attention.  Remove those root causes, and the alcohol issue is swept away that much easier.

What you're essentially asking is, "Should I change someone or just not be around them anymore".  That someone is your sister, and so it's a shitty position to be in.  Changing people is hard work, but it is possible.

My best advice:  If you do try something, ask a lot of questions, make very few statements.  If she does change for the better, it'll be drawing on something within her, not something pushed on her from without.  Your goal is to lead her to that.  The only semi-reliable way to pull that off is to make her think.

I'm ... going to have to kind of agree with Tele here.

A lot of people turn AA and staying sober into a religion.  It is great that your sister is doing well with it, but obsessing over the fact is not healthy either (although better than the alternative).  I could even see arguments that she is not really over alcohol, she just uses the safety net of AA to keep her from drinking.  When she no longer has to think about it in any fashion she will truly be over it.  (Which may never come.  Disorders suck like that.)  That is something she needs to figure out for herself though, so you are probably wise not to push the issue.

What you can try, if you think it would not upset her, is say something along the lines of, "Sis, it is great that you are taking care of yourself.  I know you are strong enough to remain sober so you do not have to let me know every time we speak.  I want to know about the things you ARE doing."  Maybe you feel you cannot say something like that because it will hurt your relationship, but if you are getting to the point you never wish to speak to her, can it hurt?

If you do try to try to tell her and it goes badly, apologize for not fully understanding the depths of her pain that let you be so callous, and don't bring it up again... 

Seen that Southpark about Kyle's dad thinking AA is a cult? It is.

I wish I were joking. One of my friends talks about addiction like he'd gotten a purple heart in 'nam.

Punch her in the face.

I hear what you're saying and I know how annoying that sort of thing can be.  The moreso because it is coming from a relative or close friend.  Just above all, remember this.  She needs your support.  And if that means swallowing your tongue and nodding and smiling blithely some of the time then just do the right thing and come around and bitch about it to us like you're doing now.

Lantyssa's advise is very solid... if you think it won't rock her world just sort of mention to her how it's all she seems to be capable of talking about (albeit in a nice, maybe even joking sort of way).  You say she's been into it for 2 years?  There's sort a a tipping point at around that length of time.  Either they sort of ease up and normalize or they become completely engulfed.  So if it's any help my thought is not to completely write her off yet; she may come to her senses of her own accord.

Don't get me wrong, I've got no love of the 12 steps and I've not felt the need to sucumb to that sort of thing myself.  But ultimately, for someone who the alternative seems to be a non-functioning alchy or druggie, it might actually be saving her life.  And yeah, I've known many people who were otherwise and altogether getting their act together but they couldn't shake the 12 step program so go figure.

I've been sober since 1985.  Before I was sober, I thought about doing drugs every day.  Since I've been sober, I think about doing drugs every day.

It is like religion.  Addiction is constant, and powerful and pervades every aspect of your life.  Anything that fights it has to do the same.

I've never gone for the AA philosophy, myself, but I do think that the disease is worse than the cure in this case.  And I do understand the need to confess and confront your addiction.  Being an addict is all about lying to yourself, and hiding what you are.  Being a bit boring, and offering too much information is common when you are in recovery, but it beats the alternative.

Does any of this make things easier for you?  Probably not.  But try focusing on what you can control.  Why does your sister's obsession with something that is essential to her survival and central to her life bother you?  Not that there is something wrong with being bothered, but there is something there that matters to you enough that you are willing to give up someone you care about because of it, and it would probably be in your interest to know more about what that something is.

Basically what I was going to say.  If she's a hardcore addict, like has the gene that causes addiction, then moderation is not an option for her.  She has to focus on something productive, and she's doing that now.  So yeah, a lot of times she'll forget herself and not realize exactly what she's doing.  But she's a person, talk to her about it.  Something to the effect of, "I'm proud you've dealt with your problem, but it's not a problem I share."

Having had relatives go into AA, the 'all I can talk about is AA and how its saving my life' thing is a phase. It can last a week, or 3 years. I know its a total pain in the neck and drives everyone nuts, but basically what's being said between the lines is "I'm not sure I'm going to make it, so I am telling everyone about this one good thing so maybe I will compromise myself into remaining sober". It'll pass once she realises that no matter how much she talks about AA, the demon is still within her to wrestle with.

Sadly, alcoholism is a lonely battle since it is so physiological in nature. The psychological component is often overemphasized and folks forget that alcoholics are physically different in their entire metabolism. You can argue wether or not its an actual genetic disease, but what you can't argue is that an alcoholic's chemistry is so screwed up that their bodies are a whole different echosystem than 'regular folks' bodies.

"They say alcoholism's a disease, but it's like the only disease you can get yelled at for havin'.

'Dammit, Otto, you're an alcoholic!'
'Dammit, Otto, you have lupus!'

One of these does not sound right."

-Mitch Hedberg

Just popping my head in to say :

If it's truly addiction, then moderation is NOT possible.  For an alcoholic, there's no such thing as one drink.  Those who say there is are merely waiting till the next relapse.

Good luck to your sister, Gulp, no matter how much she's hacking you off.  Living without alcohol would hurt me.  Living without caffeine would literally kill me.

:)

The disease is that of being an addictive personality, being an alcoholic is just one of the more common forms of expressions of that.

But not every addictive personality is an alcoholic, and not every alcoholic is and addictive personality.

This oversimplification is potentially dangerous! It can be taken as doing nothing against alcoholism because its beyond ones control.

Which is why we have the phrase, "catass".

Or "endorphin junky"(extreme athlets) and "workaholic".

The two generally accepted (and even encouraged) avenues for an addictive personality.

Maybe she's still a wee bit insecure about her recovery and needs to zeal out to help convince herself.  It's probably not the greatest time in her life to be made to feel foolish about how she copes.  Since she doesn't live with you and you don't see her constantly, how big of a sacrifice could it be to give her the time to fix her head?  Shessh... it's only been two years.  You're not big on things like compassion and support, are you?  Oh well... you should probably do what WUA said... it's faster and you are immediately gratified by the meaty crunch sound.

I was going to call you a selfish prick but I thought that since you were asking for advice, it would be unkind.

I differentiate between an addictive personality and someone who is actually an addict.

But that's hair splitting of the 'nth' degree and I don't want to get into it.

:)

Indeed, you can't help having an addictive personality. But being an actual addict is somewhat your doing. A good differentiation.

Only the addict can change.

Changing is extremely hard.

A good friend of mine died of it almost one year ago and left a wife and 2 year old daughter behind.  My wife and I do what we can to help them, emotionally and financially.

He had a blood disorder that made drinking toxic.  He had a brain disease that made him like drinking.  In the end, he knew both of these things.  In the end, it didn't matter. (AA didn't work for him)

1/5 of vodka = dead two days later.

AA kook?  Much better alternative.

How about if you take your self righteous bullshit and go fuck yourself, mmkay?

I've said nothing to my sister about any of this.  Every time she brings it up (which is constantly) I intone the usual statement of, "That's great, hon".  Of course secretly in my head I'm screaming, "Shut the hell up about it, already!".  Hence, my dread of talking to her nowadays; it's addiction-talk 24/7.  Everything in her life revolves around it like she's a cult member and considering that when she does want to talk it's for periods of a half hour to 45 minutes at a time.  That's more time than I afford anyone else on the phone, by the way.

To get to the point, I was asking for advice from anyone that may have been in a similar situation.  So far the best advice I've heard is from Engels, about this being a phase.  I surely hope so.  In the meantime, I'd appreciate not putting up with your holier than thou crap when I'm venting to the board at large and not to my sister.

You're are being a major dumbass if you think this a good place to have serious dicussion about your personal issues.  The fact that you are touchy about the subject means you shouldn't have posted it.

Yeah, that's probably right on the mark.

I'm not being holier than thou.  My father is an alcoholic who never got any treatment at all.  Now he's a recluse and has driven himself crazy because he feels guilty thinking that his cruel behaviour killed my mother.  It didn't kill her but it didn't make her life happy at the end, either.   I just believe not stifling your critcism while she might still be fragile is mean.  It's not like it really hurts you, is it?  It probably helps her to be a bit over the top with it.   

He loves his sister so he tolerates it.

But, being human and not a Saint, he still needs to get it out.. so he came here and bitched a bit.  Not as much as he needed to, since he decided lashing out for one of Signe's usual Signe-like responses was a good idea, but hey, he's Human.

Anywho, everyone else already mentioned the whole "Addicts just find something else to be addicted to.." theory.. so all I can offer to the thread is.  Boobies. (http://www.webn.com/pages/art_frogsNCDDbracket.html)

Sounds like you're being awfully fussy for someone with no addiction. Talk to your sister, tell her the problem. Any way you can help her through all of this is better for the both of you.

I'd say your compassion isn't sufficiently developed.

I like you Gulp, but you know what they say, don't dish it if you can't take it. Signe was in the right with her response. Getting testy about it is immature and foolish.

I'm sorry, but having been in a 'recovery group' and meeting someone who just couldn't stfu about their personal journey of 'recovery', I know exactly how Gulp is feeling, and if you've not had someone yammer on and on and on about recovery for weeks at a time any time you've met them, especially when you yourself are having to deal with issues related to their recovery (I'm sure Gulp has been affected personally by her alcoholism) it can rub you raw real fucking quick.

We're not talking short temper here, we're not talking a lack of compassions. We're talking a form of chinese water torture that's gotta be experienced to understand. So ya'll giving Gulp a hard time for not being 'understanding', trust me, the man understands all too fucking well. Day in, and day out, he's understanding. The fookin record has a groove all the way to the other side by now, trust me, i've been there.

I'm married.  I know all about someone who keeps yammering and won't shut up.  Gulp has my sympathy at least.

What they both said.

And sounding off on irrelevant message boards is probably a better way for Gulp to go than driving his sister back to drink, or you know, punching her in the face; so hurrah for that.

Meh, dealing with holier than thou religious zealots is difficult at the best of times.  Dealing with johnny come lately holier than thou religious zealots who are family members whom you've seen at thier worst moments is a test that no 'normal' person should have to undergo.

I probably shouldn't have almost called Big Gulp a prick... that was my inner bitch talking.  If she were a religious zealot, my advice would have been completely different and would have contained interesting ways to annoy her.  I do know what it's like to have someone yammering at you zealously about recovery.  I have a relative who was a heroin addict for years and years and did that to everyone.  It drove me to the point of distraction.  However, the thought he would start using again was more scary.  It took him much more than two years to settle down though... it seems to me that it was more like five or six years before he seemed to really come to terms with everything.  I would probably never mention that I smoke pot to him because it would probably set him off.  The ensuing lecture would likely kill me.  I stopped smoking last May and I still crave a ciggie every minute of every day, just about.  I don't feel like zealing out at people who are smoking, however... I just want to murder them in some hideous manner and steal their cigarettes.

Anyway, I'm sorry I touched Big Gulp in a bad place.  He knows I would never seriously try and hurt his feelings.

Damned right.  It's my special purpose, and my mother told me that some day I'd find out what it was there for.

I am intrigued by your thoughts and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

You can make her STFU about staying sober by getting her back on booze - shouldn't be hard, invite her to your place and pour her a drink while having one, chances are she will cave in. There are no ex-alcoholics.

But then he has to spend money on getting her booze.

No, the best solution is WUA's "Punch her in the [fucking] face."

Actually, straight up challenges like that have always been the most resistable to me.  I just get pissed, which opens up nature's pharmacy right inside my head, and allows me to use a few of the one liners that come to you in rush hour traffic.

The real trials of your sobriety come when you are alone with your demon.

It isn't completely inaccurate to speak of AA as a cult, but as I said, in this case I find the disease worse than the cure.

Tough it out, but don't be afraid to tell the truth, carefully and gently.  Addiction is a disease that thrives on lies.  Just be sure that you are ready to hear more truth than you want to know in return.

I sometimes feel the same way about my sister and her husband since they both found religion.

They call that an alcoholic personality. People with this don't know how to walk a middle ground. It's either batshit insane or batshit drunk.

"Before, I was all messed up on drugs. Now I'm all messed up on the Lord."

Sorry I have no good advice.  I wrote my sister off earlier this year after several decades of trying to cope with her.  At least yours is on the right path even if she's still an addict with an addict's mentality.  Mine's well past that point.

Skimmed. A couple comments, as a former 'alcoholic'. It's not a disease. Cancer is a disease. Alcoholism is a habit.

Addiction can be broken, it's called willpower.
That's a great line.

TBH I'd probably advise trying to get her into MMOGs. At least then when she yammers on about her habit you can find it interesting. Plus it doesn't fuck with her brain chemicals. And no I'm not joking, if she is of that pursuasion she's gonna be batshit crazy about something, and to me MMOGs sound like the lesser of any other evil I can think of.

I personally would have written her off pretty fast, but then I cut people out of my life far too casually.

Wow, Signe I didn't know that you were me. Except that instead of being an angry drunk, for the last 15 years he was just angry.

If I were in BigGulp's shoes I'd look up some therapists in the sister's region who specialize in recovery from addiction and just anonymously mail the sister some pamphlets. Or say, "hey I was watching Oprah or whatever and there was this amazing person who works with people recovering from alcoholism - have you thought at all about whether or not you might benefit from something like that?"

The thing a lot of people don't realize about substance abuse is that it is derived from pain (emotional or otherwise) that people haven't learned to deal with (or sometimes haven't even been able to identify). The pain could stem from trauma early in their lives (like physical or sexual abuse, or neglect, or having an addict parent) and they might not even consciously remember it having ever happened. People abuse alcohol (or cigarettes, or narcotics) to self-medicate to try to numb the pain a bit, and taking away the substance leaves the person feeling the unidentified pain all over again, with no metaphorical balm for their wounds. It sometimes takes a mediator to help a person identify what it is that they are trying to protect themselves from feeling, so that they can just get the "feeling the pain" part over with and move on with their lives.

I know that all sounds like a bunch of psycho-hooey, particularly from me, but I guess if I were in your shoes I would try to nudge her in a direction that facilitates her healing while politely alleviating yourself from being her second Sponsor. I sure wouldn't want to be in your position, because I can only take so much of any kind of repetitive, one-ended conversation (be it on the merits of veganism, how Christ died for me, or on what a selfish prick my friend's ex is) before I want to well, punch someone in the face.

(http://coxscorner.tripod.com/Images/marcianoko_walcott.jpg)

Sorry but it sounds like you fell into a popular psychology trap called "Übertragung" (Transference).

You just voiced what is true for some cases like it is an universal truth. That "might not even consciously remember" thing is a nice trick for that "Of course you have that trauma, you just don't remember" play. The most dangerous thing in psychology is people taking an individual diagnosis and trying to apply it to all cases. Thats why when you study Psychology you first get diagnosed yourself to hell and back, so that this things can't happen to a professional.

Its all about stimulating the Dopamine receptors in the brain. Yes, numbing the pain of a childhood trauma is one possible reason you crave the feedback from your internal reward system (thats all that Dopamine really is, a reward trigger), but by far not the only one. If MMOGs and the drooling after the DING from a level up are any indication, that behaviour can be trained as well.

In addition to what Tebonas states, its also important to bear in mind that alcoholics process alcohol differently than 'regular' people. A hangover is, simplistically speaking, molecules that block the nerve endings, preventing the usual process of seratonin reuptake. In 'normal' people, the molecules 'fall off' the nerve endings within a limited amount of time. In alcoholics, the molecuses stay 'stuck' to the nerve endings, essentially preventing a feeling of well being. This in turn 'requires' the alcoholic to drink again to get some nerve stimuli to those nerve centers, which in turn clogs the nerve endings more. The vital factor is that the brain centers affected do not simply address feelings of 'well being', but also regulate the usual environmental feedback loops that all human beings require for an existentialist sense of 'self'.

Exactly, basically all addictive drugs do that in a slightly different way. In laymans terms its numbing down from overstimulation, but explained by molecualar biology.

(http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_jul2003/BabyPunch.jpg)

Yeah, I wasn't trying to go into the "Of course you have that trauma, you just don't remember", but if shit happens when you're very young (younger than like 2 ot 3) you can still be imprinted without remembering the specifics. That's all I meant. Plenty of people are miserable without the knowledge that their parents screamed at each other all the time before they divorced, for example. Some people are just broken because they don't know the exact thing that fucked them in the head (and therefore can't deal with it).

I prefer serotonin myself.

I'm an Endorphin guy myself, so I won't judge your preference Stray. :)

You are certainly right Voodoolily. I just wanted to point out that sadly there is not one right answer that fits all.