f13.net

I'm at least two weeks away from one, but wanted to understand them a bit better first before deciding skill progression. I've started reading some of the guides at the main site, but I'd like to hear from you folks too.

I like close in fighting. I like playing with the Tactical Map on and constantly navigating through multiple targets. Even aside the fact that this looks like a movie, it's just fun for me!

Granted, I've never played long range. I haven't done much work with Railguns nor Lasers or anything like that. But from all of the missions and ratting I've been doing, I get the impression I'd have it tough against these targets trying to pick them off from the 10km or so range. They move pretty quick, and I don't have those fancy target painter things yet.

So, what can I expect from the Assault Frigate. The stats themselves don't seem all that different from my Rifter, which means I'm probably reading it wrong :)

AF = Frigate size (speed/signature/weapon tracking) with Cruiser damage if your skills are on-par and your using a techII loadout.  Oh and you get insane resists, like really insane ones.

I just got into my harpy this week, although it looks like I'm going to need to get into Advanced Weapon Upgrades before I can run 4 t2 blasters at once.

Currently I have Assault Ships 3, and I think I'm getting like 80% thermal resist and ~60-65% kinetic resist.

Orbiting at 2km with a 1mn AB II I cannot be killed by BS spawns up to at least 900k isk, even two at a time provided both are within 15km and I've webbed the one I'm orbiting.  The only higher spawns I've seen so far was a triple 1.8mil isk spawn that I wasn't willing to experiment with.

AFs are made of paper though, and are at pretty serious risk against smaller ships.  Even cruisers.

It's also worth noting, in case anyone wasn't aware, that AFs can only be insured at the value of the t1 frigate they are based on.  By way of example, my 25'ish million Harpy fully insures for 800k.  :(

They're awesome for 0.0 BS ratting though, absolutely awesome.  Especially (for the harpy) against Guristas and Dread Guristas.

Ah yea, I was beginning to see that on the forums, how equipped AFs invariably included Tech IIs. I've mapped the skill path, and hope to have the cash for purchase and replacement about the same time.

Can my Rifter equip Tech IIs if I have the skills?

And Silus, so far I've been a one-ship guy, but based on your comment I think by the time I get to purchasing something of such expense, I'll be switching ships per situation :)

If you have the skills you can equip anything.

Nice. Then I'm gonna focus that way first, and then assess whether my Rifter has the power to equip them, or I need to wait for the AF.

A note concering AF resistances.

You'll see in the ship descriptions for AFs bonuses to their shield and armor resists. To use the Wolf's example (one of the T2 Rifter designs):


Now, you'll scroll down to the resist listings for the ships. They read something like:


You might think "Holy Schnaps! Those are already higher than normal! With the bonus added in an AF would be invincible!

Well... not quite. You'll note that the resists are part of your Racial Frigate ability bonus. And you'll note that you need Racial Frigate 5 to fly an AF. If you take the resistance bonuses and add them to the base hull of the AF (like the Rifter), then you'll get the resists you see on the AFs.

Essentially, the AF defense bonuses are already factored in to the ships stats these days. The skill bonus doesn't "do" anything, you just get uber resists out of the box.

However, this means that AFs are "missing" a bonus compared to other T2 vessels, all of which get bonuses relevant to their function (the most obvious example is the Heavy Assault Cruisers, which get four "proper" bonuses AND the uber "Assault" defense.) The reason this hasn't been fixed yet is because, even with only three "real" bonuses, some of the AFs (like the Harpy) are so good as it stands that to add anything more to them would be potentially game-breaking. Imagine a Harpy with, say, better tracking ability. :x

Just thought I'd make sure that's clear for the new folks. AFs are basically "missing" a bonus compared to other T2 frigs, but a lot of them are still scary killing machines.

Just wondering what's the role of AFs?

Intys are tacklers, what do Afs do?

Are they anti Intys?

Or are they just cruiser strength frigates with frigate flexibility?

They seem to be good solo or small gang pvp gankers but I'm not sure what they do in large fleet actions?

Protect BSs from intys by orbiting the cruiser they're protecting?

Are most Afs close ranged? Other than sniper set ups that is

AF's are hard for battleships to hit and the inherent resistances make them tough as hell. I've used mine in Fleet PvP to scramble and jam.  Their small signature and toughness make them quite useful.  I can get through most gate camps with my Harpy. Most BS weapons either miss or the damage is mitigated so I can take a bunch of hits. By then I'm gone or out of range.

I messed around with the Eve Character Manager (http://www.eve-ffet.com/) program, and based on the prereqs for the AF and advice from Ca'ad/gimpyone to work up weapons support stuff (rapid fire, sharpshooter, two others), I'm not looking at being in one for at least two solid months.

So I have some time :)

I'm in no rush of course, since maybe by then I'll have the cash to afford four. But in the meantime I want to be useful to the corp, and based on how I like playing, that looks like I'll be in the Rifter for a bit. Glad I like the ship ;) But seriously, I'm operating at a level where losing one and everything on it isn't going to hurt at all (given my lowbie status).

Since this'll be my life for the short term, what can I do for the corp in a frigate?

Or, should I escew the AF for now and go to a Cruiser? More expense but something I could still afford (just about). The conversation in the newbie Cruiser thread's been very educational, and it seems like I could still play the way I like. But is it worth it? Or can I be effective to ya'all in a Rifter/alternative with better equipment (working on it) and skills (too)?

You can be effective in anything you want as long as you don't rush from ship to ship class.
Cruisers are good for a newb :)

When I first approached Eve in beta, I looked at the ships sort of as a tech tree. Start in a newb ship, go frigate, then cruiser and so on.

Thankfully I've learned a bit since :) Part of this is pure logic, like, no way I'm rushing to train for a 40mil ISK purchase when I know I'd never make such a purchase unless I topped 100mil. Particularly in a game where, yes, you can lose all your stuff.

I really didn't know how many skills there were until I poked around the main site. Sure I could skip some stuff to get a Cruiser, but I'd be outfitting it with Tech I stuff and would probably get pulverized right out of my wallet as a result.

But you mentioned Cruisers are good for a newb. What makes them good? I get the impression that they're a bit like slower Frigates with more slots, so yea, I could see myself picking that up quickly.

For now I'm going to focus on better skills and Tech 2ing my Frig. I'd like to expand its cargo hold too. I have 3 +18% expandeds in there now, so not sure how I could do so financially responsibly. I like space for hauling stuff between markets, but also have gotten used to weapons :)

Do what I did when my daughter was born...log into your favorite MMOG of the moment and then go deliberately throw away your character and/or their gear.  Get into a fight or something, and walk away from the machine *knowing* you're coming back to a total wipeout.

Does wonders for your gaming experience.  I gave Eve's "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" philosophy the finger; I don't have the time for that.  2 months and 2 million SP later I own 2 battleships, have the cash/minerals for at least two more, and can easily replace any of them in just a couple of days if I stop blowing my cash on expensive modules or skills that just give me trivial upgrades anyway.

Eh, with two kids, I don't have the sort of time to over worry it anyway. But I've also never been one to just suicide for fun. Heck, even when that was the preferred mode of transit in DAoC back in the day, I just couldn't bring myself to do it :)

Different strokes and shit. I just want a long term goal. Without one I feel like I'm flying (heh) blind, particularly in this worldy sort of game.

For minmatar, the best frig cargo holder is the probe.  If that's what you do, haul with that.

Ooh, interesting. I'll check it out, thanks!

Tech 2 stuff is nice but it's not compulsory. Don't neglect your other support skills in a mad rush to qualify for t2. The main reason I like my t2 turrets is that they're actually cheaper than the named t1s I was using before and I made money on the switchover. :)

Yea, I'm doing the support skills first. No sense spending beaucoup bucks on an upgrade (since I'm just using generic 150s and a 200 right now) until I can maximize their effectiveness.

I would steer away from tech2 stuff until all your support skills are higher. They are much more expensive to replace, which makes putting them in a fragile frigate a risky proposition IMHO. I would lean toward getting into a cruiser and making some money ratting and mission running while you are broadening your skill base; by the time you are ready for AFs or Intys, you should be in more of position to afford them (and their spendy components).

Sounds good.

And Destroyers, not worth it? I can easily afford to buy and replace a Thrasher, and equip with some stuff. None of its Tech2 or anything though.

The Thrasher looks to be slower by a lot than my Rifter, but it's got a cargo capacity I like and I can always throw an MWD on it once I have the skill for it.

It also only has the same three Med Slots I'm struggling with right now. I'd really like to have a capacitor booster, a shield recharger, and my ECM White Noise all going at the same time, but the Rifter can't handle it.

The seven weapon slots look nice though. Assuming level 3/4s across all support skills, seems like I could be loaded for bear.

But I've not really heard anything good about them.

Destroyers are basically the frigate skills of the larger ships. They are meant for in-close combat (not ranged combat with missiles). So if you like that play style and blow up mostly frigates it might be a good one for you.

I've tried running a Cormorant (Caldari Destroyer)...it was a bit risky. It's not as fast as a frigate, and only marginally tougher. And, it doesn't really have the power to run many fancy toys in order to keep it alive.

Maybe someone else can find a good way to use these?

Target practice?

Destroyers get hit as if they were cruisers, take hits like a frigate and have the damage of a frigate-and-a-half, from what I can tell.

Yeah but you can spec destroyers to be able to insta-lock and shoot at things from 90km away with light turrets. They're worth looking at, but not as your bread and butter ship.

Cormorant is supposed to be a good low-level mining platform, and is quite popular with the macro miner "crowd" due to having fractionally more power than any of the other destroyers.

Destroyers in general seem to be designed for either catassing your way through L1 missions (abundance of "small" anti-frigate hi slots and a decent sized cargo hold), or possibly supporting larger ships in PvE vs. swarms.


Biggest problem with destroyers seems to be that everyone attempts to use them very early as a minature cruiser, then they realise they are appalling at that role and finally buy a real cruiser, cursing the destroyer all the way.

Watching how easily NPC destroyers go pop doesn't exactly impress either I guess :)


Picking up a destroyer with a trained character when you understand how to fit them correctly might yield a different experience ... but I'm not sure where you'd use them aside from L1 missions.

Ok, then holding off for the Cruiser, then AF some year. No sense spending money on stuff when I'm still trying to figure out my preferred role.

I like close in dodge/fighting. And based on that, I really applaud whoever recommended me to the Rifter. It's perfect for me right now, except that I wish for just one more Med Slot. Which leads to a question:

I want to have my Small Nosferatu in a High Slot, and can equip it. I also want to have my ECM White Noise in a Med Slot. Trouble is that thing eats Capacitor for lunch, and I just don't have the power for it and a Small Civilian shield. So back out it went, allowing me to run two Small Civ Shields concurrently in those few occasions I need it.

So, questions:

1) What can I get in any slot that would let me increase the power or recharge rate of my Capacitor?
2) I'd rather have one Shield recharger rather than two. What's a good option?

1 - Power Diagnostic Unit I (or Basic Power Diagnostic Unit if you haven't the skills) will give you a small amount of boost to powergrid output, capacitor size and capacitor recharge rate. It takes up 1 low slot.

2 - Small Shield Booster I? The skills required are negligible and can be trained in an hour, I think.

Since you like the fast, close-in fighting you might want to look at the intys rather than the AFs. 

Until you can fit all that stuff on your rifter and not have it suck cap so hard you might want to avoid it,though. Play with ShipFit a bit and you can see what a difference skill set-ups make for fitting and capacitor ability.

I saw some references to Interceptors on the Eve forums so started checking 'em out. Interesting. I've still got some time (and cash) before I need to decide, but the Intys I can do much sooner than the AFs. May be my next upgrade, or Cruiser. Next week maybe.

Instead of the civilian boosters, try doing a small shield extender and one small booster (not the civilian one). With that you might be able to do the ECM, though I don't think it's really needed for your setup. Instead, I would do an afterburner. (rifters only have 3 mid slots right?)

I also wouldn't use a NOS just because it doesn't hurt the NPC pirates and a small one isn't really that helpful. Instead, I would put another gun on so they die faster. You shouldn't need a NOS to support one shield booster.

Aren't rifter's armor tanks? Maybe you should get an armor repairer instead and not worry about the shields?

Yea, Ca'ad was telling me about their armor tankedness. Started messing around as a result, and now have one Civ Booster (will upgrade to something later), a webber to slow the target down, and the Cold Jet AB. I also added a Missile Launcher and found a good price for a Flameburst BP. Using those and EM S ammo is generating all sorts of fancy explosions. Things die quick, I make more cash.

Going to try some 0.3 ratting tomorrow :)

late to the thread... as usual :)

Ratting in an AS - I don't know why anyone would want to do that to themselves. It's slow and somewhat dangerous - they have good resists, but are still frigates. IMO to really live in the real 0.0 space you should be able to fly around in a battleship, to be self sufficient. Ratting is a breeze if you have the skills - I'm doing it in a Dominix, which is the cheap gallente BS. With around 600k skill in drones and 100k in mechanic (all you need is hull upgrades 4 and repair systems 2) I can tank and kill any BS spawn. And I don't even have the large guns skills. I just fly around in a mad tank and heavy NOSes on the high slots. I even tried running around with a MWD, cause I can take the penalty because of the NOSes and it's really funny approaching a BS Spawn with the signature radius of a big moon :P

Inties - I use an intie for pvp. The only thing I can kill is another intie or a tech I frig. I'm still learning so I'm losing them like crazy, they're just too fragile. They're really hard to learn and if the guy has a heavy nos fitted, you have one of two options - warp out or stay with a big chance to lose the ship :) I'm still wondering if I'm going to pursue this tech tree further (Interdictors) or go for HACs.

All in all flying frigs is a bitch, so unless you're thinking about going for HACs (pwnmobile proper) I don't really see a point in them :)

1- Cap Batteries increase the total amount of Cap available, I use them to counter the negative effects of the MWD on my rifter.

2- Have you anything essential packed in your low slots ? I am armor "tanking" myself and I only need 1 small armor repairer. That would free up your med slots, i think.

I haven't really done the Armor Tanking thing, preferring to keep the "free" Shields going. Not like Armor repairs are expensive, but I'd been focusing on weapon/support skills so hadn't learned the armor repair ones yet. I do plan to though, so could use a Small Armor Repair soon.

All three of my low slots have Expanded Cargoholds 1 (+18%). This almost doubles my cargo capacity, and unfortunately for me, I've gotten quite used to it :) I'd gladly drop one though for the Repairer.

My Med slots are one Civ Shield Booster, the Webber and the Cold Jet AB (haven't learned the MWD skills yet).

Don't forget those expanders also increase your signature (easier to hit) and make you move slower (easier to hit and harder to turn/move away).

What are you using that cargohold for, anyway ?

Re: Rifter

If you are going armor tank you can always use the +20% cap regen -10% (or is it 20?) shield boost low mod.

If you can spare a mid slot though (who can?) you can get close to +20% cap regen w/ no penalty from a named cap recharger (they start at 15% for the basic).


Re: Wolf's inty comments.

Like all techII ships you need mad skills to fly those correctly, and it is expensive.  Many AF/Ceptor pilots are accepting that nos is a way of life and either using some themselves or using cap boosters.  All in all though it is not very practical to take on a bship w/ a frigate.  Large SB, Web + drones or Nos will ruin your day in a hurry.  A Stabber or possibly an Omen could be outfitted to tackle a bship just as effectively I imagine.  It will last longer versus those counters and still has a small enough sig to dodge large guns at higher speeds in close.  Oh and it will cost you less also.

My take on techII frigates are they are NOT defensive ships, they are for ganking and they excel at ganking.  You should be able to almost always pick your battles, you are pretty much immune to gate camps and you can catch a person who doesn't have safespots due to the quick allignment for warp.  A ceptor can tackle a bship fast, but it shouldn't be doing that if the firepower isn't available to slag said bship with a quickness.

That is almost entirely theorycraft though, so who knows how things pan out in reality.

*n't added*

A general tip: I would strongly suggest avoiding civilian equipment if possible.  It's all junk.  Junk, junk, junk.  The difference I got when I replaced my civ shield booster with a cheap "real" one was clear.

I've had problems prioritizing what skills to take, which has delayed me getting a better shield :)

I kept getting the expanded holds as loot so decided to see what it was like to load all three. I got used to it.

On missions, I haven't yet had any real challenge. Tonight I'm headed into 0.3/0.2 space for some ratting. I've already replaced one hold with an armor plate (still learning armor repair so can't use that yet), and so far have noticed even the rats in normal space are much tougher than the pirates/drones I've been seeing on the combat missions. Should be interesting in tougher space.

Level 1 missions are pretty much cheeseball newbie stuff, meant to keep you busy while you train up to frigate 3 or cruiser 1 so you can do Level 2 missions or go out and rat effectively. You can sneeze on the enemies in there and they'll evaporate.

Yea, found that out tonight big time. Before Phelaen of WoOwhateveritis jumped us, I managed to kill a whole one rat in Perbhe (0.2). 80k bounty, but he and his two buddies had me down to 5% armor. Granted I had crap armor, but still, eye-opener.

Then  I went ratting in Neesher and even those were no pushovers. Good net gain though.

I don't mind building loyalty with the guy, and so far the side-missions/offers he's unlocked have netted me new agents and about 2mil isk as well (like one mission tonight for 999 Veldspar netted an implant I sold for 1mil alone. I don't want implants. I know I'll get podded the moment I use one :) ).

Taught me a lot of stuff about how my ship works thought. Got some better armor plating, upgraded the webber, armor repairer, new skills, and replaced the Missile/Flameburst with a Rocket launcher and either Phalanx (Explosive) or Gremlin (EMP). Damage per rocket is much less but the rate of fire is 4x the launcher. Just need to pick up and learn the skill in what has become my second home: Kulu IX. Then the BPO for the one I like. And this entire paragraph is brought to you by Addryc, who was helping me manage the Powergrid wall I was at with such suggestions :)

Sucks the first time I see him in game, in the first group I've been in here, during the first time I go ratting in 0.2 space, we get jumped, flee, only he's getting attacked by Phelaen, and he gets podded back 27 jumps away to newbie land.

But hey, all in good fun! ;)

Thank you for reminding me to upgrade my clone.  :-D

Unless you absolutely want a BPO of your own, ask around to see if anyone already has the same BPO and would be willing to make you a copy.  It costs a pitance to create a max-run ammo BPC and you get to benefit from any research they've already done on it - saving you time / materials over an unresearched version.


If you haven't already, look on the EVE forums for suggested ship setups (think it's a sticky in the Ships & Modules section) - if you don't find a "perfect" setup you'll get an idea how other people fit their ships and the strengths / weaknesses of their choices, which can give you some interesting ideas.

Hoax - The thing is a Heavy Nos eats 100+ Cap every 10 or so seconds, and my ship has ~300ish with skills, without the mwd penalty and nothing working. I have 3 med slots, so rechargers are out of the question (MWD, webber, scrambler) and small Noses eat 10 energy every 3 seconds. Even if you time it right, there's the moment where his noses tick and your ship stops :) I don't know, I don't have much expirience in tackling I mostly die. The thing with BSs is we mostly chase guys around our territory that are in there to gank. When he warps in at 50kms and sees you got numbers, he's gonna run - so you have to get there FAST before he manages to turn around and warp out (10ish secs). It can only be done in an Intie and I only have to survive the 40ish secs my guys need to catch up and tackle him themselves. The prob is if he has NOSes I cant warp out (no cap, no warp). Anyways, I'm rambling. I guess I just have to grind for a week, buy 15 inties and try setups until I learn :)

I'm sticking to my statement that flying a frig is not for the weak of heart, though. Last intie I lost was while orbiting at 7km @ 3500m/s to a 1400MM Howitzer fucking Artillery. I have no fucking idea how he hit me, but I insta died. I think I broke a finger when I hit my desk :P

Darniaq - if you can, I highly recomend going for armor tank. It is better pre-1 million skill points in the tree and you can easily do it with 100k with the best of them :)

Yes - it was a fun time last night - a learning experience for sure - being away for almost 2 months then coming back to a warzone and getting podded whilst still trying to remember how to fly the damn ship - good times :)  Although it WAS very exciting playing cat and mouse with him - I learnt the following:

• Don't get so attached to my ships
• Get a NICE clone, not a noob alpha crap clone
• Clone near the base and not back in noobie land

Oh well - no biggie - got back on my feet and ready to go!

Thanks Dreamr. I've been lurking there a bit but there's still stuff I don't know much about. I get tripped up on vernacular. For example, what is "MAPC" and "CPR"?

Please correct me if I've got it wrong, but as I understand it, the Armor Tank doesn't rely on shields but rather Hull HPs and hull repairing? Get in close, accept the shield is going to go away right quick, and dish out while soaking up.

My problem right now is PowerGrid, but once I hit Engineering 3 tomorrow, I'll have enough for my load out. I've been considering my Small Nos for a High Slot, but the power issues are, err, an issue. Otherwise, I have become reliant on the webber, tossed the Hull Rep, a 200mn plate, and will eventually learn MWD to replace my named AB.

Well I lost my second and only cruiser last night, but this time to rats.  Pretty hard to stomach.  I got warp scrambled by a single frigate for 15mins+ and pounded down to nothing.  I kept trying to get more range with an afterburner, but I guess he somehow had one as well... He kept me within 4999km so my medium guns wouldn't work and my 2 light missile racks didn't do enough damage on him.  I have to say I'm not happy with this....  Feel pretty jipped.  /grumble


And BTW, where do I go to accept a Bat Country invite?  I requested a join in Neesher and got a note saying "check our offer", but where do I do that?  You would think they'd include a link.  Thx.

MAPC - Micro Aux Power Core, lots of extra power in a small package but has high skill requirements.

CPR - Capacitor Power Relay, improves cap recharge rate at the cost of shield recharge time.  Good for armor tankers who need extra power for ABs, repairers, turrets etc


ps.  You can accept the BC offer at one of their offices or wherever you initially applied.

Armor, not hull. Everything else you said is right. You got three stats - Shield, Armor and Hull. You can either shield or armor tank, hull is kind of "If i get there, I'm done".

Gods, I keep swapping Hull and Armor. Having watched my Shields and Armor get depleted down to the Hull, I do get it. Really! All evidence to the contrary to be sure  :-D

And thanks for the acronym help Dreamr! I've continued up the Engineering ladder to learn Energy Grid Systems 1-2 for a cheapo Power Diagnostics system. Between the 10% PowerGrid boost, the 10% redux in CPU needs across the board from Engineering II and the 5% from this device, I'll be able to equip everything. In the end (as in, by tonight), it should look like this:

High
(2) 150mm ACs (EMP S)
(1) 200mm AC (still not sure what to do here, whether to go all 200s or all 150s. Works ok right now)
(1) Rocket Launcher (Phalanx- Explosive dmg. May replace with Small Nos depending/situationally).

Medium
Small Shield Booster I
Webber
Cold Jet AB

Low
200mn Crystalline Carbonide plate
Small Armor Repairer I
Power Diagnostic Systems I

I'm not looking for uber right now, just good and affordable to replace.  :-D

Read my autocannon thread, the 200mm are like 1 dps better than the 150mms

Yea, I JUST re-read that :) 150s it is. Plus I like that they have twice the capacity. Particularly against drones. Reloading bites.

Here's some info that will help there.

Any non-standard frigate will have either scram or web, so Dark Blood <x>, Blood Eldar <x> etc need to be watched for.

Also you can always just turn on all your tanking modules and log out, log back in 10min later and then hope you can warp away from the belt before they re-target and lock you down again.  If your going to die anyways that is worth a shot.

Otherwise the best you can do is try to get to a range where your guns can hit, usually what I do is look at how they are orbiting and make a sharp turn away from where they will be in ~3 seconds of flight.  If you time it right you can get an extra 1-4,000m of distance depending on how fast/agile your enemy is compared to your ship.  Drones/Web/Painter are also life savers in this situation.

Real men structure tank.