f13.net

I bought Oblivion a couple days ago, and previous to this I hadn't bought a PC game for what must be almost a year. As I was driving back home to install it I thought to myself "I wonder if it will even work". I recall having thought this before as I bought PC games in the years past, and I used to dismiss it as just being the way it is. This time was different, this time I was really ticked off by the idea that something I bought might not even work for me. A year of buying console games (and playing WoW) brought me to the stage where I was used to just throwing the disc into the console and knowing it would work.

So there I am installing Oblivion and being happy it installed, but when I open it up it spits out an error saying it can't find some .dll file. Looking it up on the internet I find out it's a common problem because of some blah blah blah, whatever. I DL the file and put it where it's supposed to be. The game works fine at this point, but it irked me that I had to take an extra external step to make it work. Why is this necessary? Why can't I just have everything I need either in the disc or in the machine? Why can't I just throw the goddamn CD in the drive and play? I used to laugh at my Dad when he'd complain to my teenage self about how you just put the VCR in the VCR machine and hit play, so why doesn't the computer work the same way. But now... it all makes sense to me.

My copy of Deus Ex is unplayable on any 3 of the computers I currently have access to. On one it refuses to work, on another the sound wont work, and on the third the sound is really choppy and robotic. Another game I had (forgot the name) I had to crack the copy protection and copy it onto another disc just so my gaming rig could even play it (lolz at copy protection not letting me play the game I puchased unless I crack the protection and copy it, pure genius fuckers). Many games have required me to update or roll back my video drivers because of some stupid incompatability. I could go on.

I'm not some raging console fanboi who gets a hardon for bashing PCs, I'm just getting tired of all the BS I have to go through to enjoy my hobby. Either the PC market needs a real big shakeup, or the consoles need to start emulating what I like about PC gaming (keyboard and mouse standard, and monitor [they might be able to do this already], games that only come out on PC, or which suck without mouse/keyboard), because right now I'm thinking of just giving up on all that TBS/RPG/etc goodness just because I don't need the added hassle.

Dude, if you don't want or need the added hassle, just don't buy PC games. You seem to forget that gaming on PCs was an entirely incidental development to their original intended purpose. It happens that computers are versatile enough to allow the development of sophisticated games, whereas console games have had to follow PC technology in order to get PC-created games to work. The XBox is nothing more than a standardized hardware PC. It is a Mac for gaming, nothing more.

Some of us prefer to have the versaility and freedom of having a machine that can do multiple things, and won't be limited by one company's idea of what you can do with it. With freedom comes the added 'responsibility' of having to do extra stuff to make things work.

In the words of Benjamin Franklin,"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a console game deserve neither keyboard nor expandable hardware."

This is Bethesda...Of course it won't work. ;)

The problem, as I'm sure you know, is that PC's are way too diverse to expect anything to run perfectly on every hardware combo. Even without stupid stuff like forgetting to include a necessary DLL, we're always going to run into problems. What needs to happen, and this is unrealistic I know, is for a common framework or virtualization/emulation layer to be implemented at the bottom and the games built on that. Sort've like JAVA or MAME which any combo of video, mobo, sound, etc. could run and you'd come out with pretty much the same result no matter what system you were on. Pipe dream I know, but that's what we'd need to have the same experience you'd get from a console. I think this is Shadowbane's problem. I've played it on both Mac and PC, and have never gotten the equivalent of SB.EXE on the Mac, but get it almost immediatly on the PC. The Mac has a standard, knowable hardware/software platform, the PC doesn't and I think SB just can't handle some instances and crashes out.

I see others have posted whilst I've been typing so somebody's probably beat me to the punch.

I think the main problem with people having weird bugs with PCs revolves almost entirely around their hardware selection and not so much the OS provided they don't have it crapped up with spyware and viruses (which is 99% the user's fault).

You want stuff to work right off the bat with little trouble when you build your own PCs?

1. Do not buy a cheap motherboard. Do not do not do NOT. If it's an Intel processor, get an Intel-made board. If you MUST have overclocking capability or weird features try Gigabyte or ASUS, and even then do some research. Check the support boards at the manufacturer's website for people having issues. Shitty motherboards can fuck up nearly EVERYTHING.

2. Do not buy chintzy RAM. Stick with well-respected brands, and even then, do some research. OCZ, Kingston (to a lesser extent), Corsair, Crucial, Mushkin, etc. Shitty RAM can make stuff behave very strangely too, and cause problems that are a pain in the ass to troubleshoot.

3. Do not buy a shitty power supply. This can cause another wide array of strange and hard to troubleshoot problems. Shitty RAM, Shitty Mobos, and shitty RAM share a WIDE range of symptoms. Also, a bad PSU can cause physical damage to your hardware. Antec and Enermax make awesome PSUs.

4. Avoid RAID arrays unless you seriously have a hardon for them and MUST HAVE ONE. RAID drivers can do some really, really strange stuff if you install the wrong ones, improperly set the RAID up, have bad hardware, etc. etc.

In other words, research research research.

If it makes you feel better Oblivion crashed my 360 and wiped out a days hard gaming in the process, so theres nothing special about the PC other than its easier for you to fix your problem.

What the.... ?!

Are you serious!?
Okay, scratch that from my "must buy" list...

Our 360 has had some "issues" with save games (Koboshi is one of the flatmates here). It uh, swallows game saves. Or it has something to do with the wonkiness of using memory cards and hard drives during the same games. Not entirely sure. We've only lost Oblivion and DOA4 stuff though. So it's ENTIRELY possible that Bethsoft and Team Ninja are to blame.

I think you just described an "operating system".

Maybe, maybe not. I thought that was what DirectX was geared to do.  Give a standard "instruction layer" that all the different soundcards, videocards, and other game related hardware was supposed to talk to for hashing out detailed interactions with windows.

Just to clarify.  The initial error he had was given because he didn't have the latest drivers for DirectX.  It is on the Oblivion disc, you just have to install it from there.  I had the same thing and fixed it in 2 minutes.

That right there IS the power of the PC.  You can have the same system for years and just continue to put the lastest and greatest on it in the form of drivers or hardware.  Yes, at some point you go and start all over, but now-a-days you can do this, what, every 5-6 years?  Maybe more now that software hasn't been able to keep up with the progress of hardware?  You have to put some effort into it, but you get versatility.

Plus, the fact that computers are made to do much more than gaming...yeah, that's already been said here.  I just have to say that I like having everything I need in one system.  It seems like I'm going out of my way, when I get the GC all out, untangle all the cords, switch the TV controls over to the right spot and then sit down to play.  I'm done in an hour or two, then have to clean it all back up again.  Most the time, I'm just not willing to do that when my computer is sitting right there ready to use after I surf, email, work on resume, balance the checkbook, etc.  Hell sometimes, I do those things all at once with the beauty of Windows (copyright symbol here.)

We'll all have this same conversation again 3 years from now when the 360 is old news.  The games will be getting cheaper and everyone's attention will be on the Whippiteedingdong console that will be the next bestest!  In the meantime, your system has the same drivers/hardware in it from 3 years prior and you are getting less and less impressed by it as the days go by.  I know this.  I suffer from the same malaise every cycle.

Hey, consoles are popular and will be in the future.  They are easy and people like easy.  This is just my point of view.  Hell, we'll probably always have at least one console that is relevant within a few years, but it won't get the attention my computer will though.  I certainly will continue to buy more things for my computer too (software, subscriptions, hardware, broadband, security, virus protection, etc.)

Are consoles cheaper than computers in the long run?  Yep, sure are, especially if you add up all of that.  I get a lot more from my computer and it is all in one spot too though.  It is worth it to me.

Most games install and run on my system without any problem at all.  I have found this to be the case since I bought my first Dell.  I'm now on my third Dell as a result.

Prior to this discovery, I'd buy whatever cheap system from some shitty bare storefront operation or at a Computer Fair - remember those? - and have all sorts of problems with everything because nothing worked right together.

I haven't had any of the problems with that I've heard about with Dell at all, but their stuff has always worked for me.  I've never had to call their CS department so I can't attest to how that goes.

Sneer if you want, but my Dell computers have been easy to set up, work with, install software on and maintain.  This is how computers should work.  Also, I tend to replace my computer every 2-3 years and that helps.

Just as a note to this thread, I had everything up-to-date on my PC (video drivers, DirectX, etc.). I purchased Oblivion via Direct2Drive as a test run. Downloaded the beast and unzipped it. Ran the installer and no problems. Ran the game and no problems whatsoever thus far. In addition, it looks fricking beautiful and runs really well on high detail settings on my machine (2.1 GHz AMD, 1.5 GB Ram, 7200 RPM WD HD, GeForce 6800 GT 128 MB VRAM).

I'm pleasantly surprised with how well Oblivion is running on my P4 2.66ghz 1GB ram Radeon 9800pro machine. I've had zero technical issues so far except for an occasional stutter when several enemies spot me at the same time. Sure I have to forfeit some of the shiny, but I don't actually care much about that part anyway--I'm more into the open-ended world with NPCs who act independently etcetera.

But I'm sympathetic to the original complaint, for all that I have many times made the same reply that everyone else made to it. I do find it irritating as hell that some of the maintenance processes for PCs aren't more readily automated--I really really love the games that come with autopatchers, I appreciate the improvements over time to my ability to track driver status and so on in Windows, etc--the next version of the OS needs a shit-ton more of that kind of thing. E.g., automate it up to the point where I need to actually monitor what's happening manually, the same way I now handle my firewall and virus/spyware checking needs, e.g., automated but I can keep a watchful eye on what needs watching, check things now and again. I do find it annoying that I have to spend hours on occasion troubleshooting some obscure issue, or dealing with some perverse piece of hardware. I have a Chinese-manufactured digital microscope that fucking needs to have its driver reinstalled EVERY SINGLE TIME I disconnect it from the USB port and then reconnect it. Sure, it's the shitty software of the manufacturer, but still. The price of the flexibility and power of PCs can on occasion be pretty high in the aggravation department.

 Software companies don't help matters when they install security and so on--if I want to move some of my games, or reinstall them, I have to go find the goddamn manuals in many cases in order to get the security code. That kind of stuff costs this industry way more than it gains them, I suspect, and like most people in the culture industry, they seem to have no idea how to add it all up.

It *does* seem perverse and annoying that I have to do all sorts of exotic shit to play a product that is only seven years old or so. Yes, I know, changes, all that, but still. This is a continuing barrier to the PC market, if nothing else--if I were in the PC business, either hardware or software or OS design, I would really want streamlining, compatibility, ease of use, convenience for paying customers, and so on, to be Job One at this point.

I am not a techy - so my techy bud laughs at me - but I buy name brand everything.  The cost of my frustration justifies any brand name purchase.

My bud and I play side by side literally - on Fridays I bring my system over (I leave a monitor at his place permanently).  I dunno what it is - but our systems are supposed to have the same performance specs - but my image quality in games - even WoW - just blows his system away when we play side by side.

This entire thread is why PC's will continue to be (and should be) a NICHE market, and not a mass market one. Most people can't competently turn on their computer, much less perform the necessary gyrations to get it to play decent games well. Consoles are a relatively headache-free way to do so.

The PC game industry needs to stop trying to compete with consoles for market share, and instead focus on delivering unique experiences directly to consumers.

I disagree somewhat.  I do think somebody will come up with an online system that will work on a HDTV or monitor that will give you best of both worlds.  All PC type software will be provided through the system, updated automatically.  Console type games will be offered for direct payment and download or subscription scheme.  The connection will be heavily monitored for pirating/viruses/attack since you are required to be connected at all times (or offline with purchased games/software off the harddrive.)  It will be the WalMart of software meaning if you are a developer/publisher and choose not to list with this new behemoth, you'll lose a huge marketshare.

As a customer, you'll use the system as a computer (keyboard/mouse) or as a console (joypad/stick/thumbnub/etc.)  You'll make purchases online.  You'll get everything you want safely and free from risk of failure unless you pull titles from the "high risk areas" (new titles might be listed as such before full QA from this service can provide it and fixes downloaded automatically to your system.)  Even then, once you purchase a software title, you will be given updates/fixes/add-ons/patches/etc. realtime as they come out.  This will happen while you sleep or while you are online.

The hardware would be leased, so when new stuff comes out, the service person comes and swaps out components all part of the plan.

This thing will take care of your TV needs too.  It will have a "DVR."  You'll be able to rent movies like "On-Demand."  They'll take care of your connection for channels and for broadband all for one basic charge per month.  We'll leave it to them to worry about different ISP's and Cable providers.

Not everyone would use it still.  Many would still want to be "outside the system."  They'll continue to want to download pirate stuff, tweak system hardware, modify content, etc.  There will always be those that want that control and accept the risk.  For the vast majority out there just wanting something they can count on and easily play/work with software, the new system would be a killer.

Just my prediction.

That system you described? It's a console with a mouse and keyboard. It's a set top box. It won't allow the kind of customization that a PC will. It won't allow mods. It won't be a PC except in name and some functions. It will be a mass market device.

A PC is not a mass market device anymore, if it ever was. PC game makers should embrace that, because it's the only thing that will set them apart in the future.

The PC is a mass market device and it always has been.  The PC as a gaming platform has always been a hobbyist realm and probably always will be, pc game makers have embraced that long ago - hence you are expected to put up with lots more BS, fortunately many PC games offer extra additional features that make it worthwhile for small portions of the MASSIVE installed base of PC owners to deal with the problems inherent in PC gaming.

In other words I disagree with what you said.

Did you know that there is an estimated 62 million web connected PC's installed in peoples home in America alone (2003 census)?  If someone does manage to make a truely mass market PC game the money hats will have to shipped in by supertanker.

Sure. Now, whittle down how many of those machines are actually able to play the latest PC games. Then take out how many of those can't even play year-old PC games. Take away those PC owners who just aren't gamers and never will be (like my mom). Remove even more those who can't even download the Weather Bug, or the ones who can't figure out how to install fonts.

The PC GAMES industry is a lot smaller than the console industry, even if you count casual games like Solitaire and Pogo.com-style games. Blizzard games ARE the mass market PC games. The hardware of consoles being expanded to be more PC-like is more likely a scenario than those 62 million web-enabled PC's becoming mass market game machines.

Well my thought is the company would basically say, "Give us lots of money each month and we'll take care of you."  They'd keep your system up to date for all games/mods on the market.  You'd have access to 95% of what's out there.  The system I envision takes all of the money people spend on all the separate costs of entertaining ourselves and puts it into one system.  Add up all the costs you experience on average per month and that's what you could spend on this system except you wouldn't be doing the work and it would all be part of one system.

I'm thinking off the cuff maybe $150-200/month. (TV channels, on-demand, PC software access, console game access, telephone, DVR, etc.)  Anything multimedia (any electronic media into or out of the home) would be included.

No, not anytime soon.  Yes, there would still be a niche "do it my way" PC market too.  Yes, I'm probably wrong.

Personally, I will always want my TV-stuff seperate from my PC-stuff. I don't want to have to stop watching a TV show or a hockey game, just to check my e-mail, fantasy hockey league, or f13.



PC may be niche, but, um...Niche ftw? Being a part of the niche helps me continue to be an elitist bastard, and like it.  :wink:

Actually I was going for a middleware type of solution. Sort've a Java machine type program that would sit between the game and the OS/hardware. Only problem is, it would most likely kill performance at the cost of compatibility.

Just clarifying my POSPOV.

Like DirectX?

And I'd argue that DirectX is pretty much part and parcel of the OS at this point.  Which is as it should be, IMO; a decent graphics interface should be right up there with a filesystem on the requirements list for an OS.

The problem, of course, is that even when you have that "standardized" layer, it's not immune to bugs and compatibility issues, especially if you need to keep adding new functionality to it.

Hello there, Doom 3.

Last time I had trouble installing a game on a PC it came on magnetic media.

Yes, you need IT knowledge to build and run a PC properly. Yes, consoles break in ways more acceptable to a mass market. Of course, it seems you need a climate controlled clean room for an Xbox to operate these days, so everything has it's downside.

PCs != Consoles. And as others said, you can only barely view them as competitors.

Consoles are there to provide mass market Madden clones.

PCs are there to provide anything that requires more than 64k of RAM.

Purchase accordingly.


QFT.

That used to be my attitude, my attitude now is I don't need all the hassle that comes with it. Am I going to go pure console? Of course not, the same reason why I bought Oblivion I will buy PC games in the future. What I would like is to not have to deal with all the crap that goes with it. Why did I have to install the .dll I needed seperately? It wasn't in windows update, it wasn't automatically installed by Oblivion, so why do I need it (oh, and I had the latest version, just didn't get an obscure mini-patch/update that is not properly distributed)? I shouldn't have to track it down, if I have an (officially) up-to-date windows install, and meet all the system reqs then I should be able to put in the CD, install, and play without having any hassles. Now I'm well aware of the realities and why it is the way it is, that doesn't mean I have to like it, and that doesn't mean more shouldn't be done to change the status quo.

Also, the advice in this thread, while appreciated, is not what I'm looking for. Last hardware problem I had was being shipped a busted vid card, once I got it replaced there hasn't been a problem (copywrite crap not working on specific machines not withstanding). There also hasn't been a software problem (on an application younger than 5ish years) larger than finding some bullshit .dll or having to mess with my gfx driver (and that's something you can't fix by being prepared, you get an upgraded driver and then later you get a game that doesn't work on it... nothing you can do but rollback after the fact). It's all the little things that add up and make me go "wtf".

It shouldn't be possible to have a system full of compatability problems. It's so stupid that the stock question for a few games is "have you got an ATI card?" when someone has a problem. It's bullshit, and it really should not happen. I used to say "well dude, you shoulda done some research before you bought <insert hardware here>", but now I see how stupid it is that you need to do research. Choices should be about price and performance, not about how to avoid hardware that has compatability problems with various common applications/hardware.

Ultimately, you can't have the user-built PC concept, with a diverse set of choices for each components, and *not* have research be an issue. Simply becuase enough people want to push the envelope to keep that diversity of function meaningful.

I guess you can limit your choice to high quality OEM pre-built machines, but then you pay alienware prices in order to pay someone else to do the research and put it together. /shrug

Another simple way to dramtically reduce these sorts of non-hardware issues is not to buy beta software. Wait 6 to 8 weeks, buy the game slightly cheaper than it would cost at launch, and install the first patch at the same time as the game.

Don't even think about Windows XP Pro x64 right now either   :-P

I've had to locate more patches and drivers than can make your head spin, but the funny thing is all the other crap like downloaded games from MSN and Yahoo don't have a problem, but installing the Epson printer took a search to find the right drives.

Sometimes I wonder if getting a OS that can run 4 gigs of ram is worth it, especially if Bill Gates dumps it sooner than expected.

Did you mean >4 GBs?

Dren, are you plugging the Phantom...?

Just wait until console APIs are licensed to run over multiple platforms.  Deja vu all over again.

Oh, but this is abuse / console jihad.  Rather you want room 12A, just along the corridor.  Right then.

BAD AVATAR!  BAD POCO!  BAD!   :mob:

It's not April 1st for another two hours, dammit!  I don't care what commie timezone you live in.

Was wondering why he had that. o_O

Wisps are already a playable race over here.

For me, a console with mouse, keyboard, joystick, web browser and email client would mean that I would have no need for a PC.  Most people that I know do not use their PC for anything but Internet access.  Maybe once in a while they'll try to play some game on their PC, but the console part of this device takes care of that.

One thing to consider is that PC monitor resolution and TV resolution used to be miles apart.  It's tough to read computer text on a standard TV set.  Maybe HD will address this.

Seeing as I've posted here from home before, that's a roger.

I for one, won't give a shit until HDTVs come down in price to about the same as a nice CRT monitor.

I saw a 26" Widescreen CRT HDTV for $450 in one of Sunday's ads.

It's only 34" deep, and only ways 185 pounds!

Plasma/LCD TVs are vastly overpriced and overrated. CRT for the win.

Heh. You keep tellin' yourself that.

I'll be playing Oblivion on a 61" monitor. Which weighs 100lbs.

I like the CRT picture, but of course the tradeoff is that I have a 32" TV that weighs 250 pounds.

Currenly I do the majority of my gaming on a 21" LCD and  15" LCD. Honestly, I'm not losing much. Like movies, very few games need to be played on the Big Screen. I'd have to say about a year ago or so I kinda stopped caring about monitor size as long as the thing could at least do 720p - natively.

From the sofa, schild? I sit at a desk most of the day, it's the last thing I want to do all evening.

I have a comfy enough chair that the difference is nominal. The only thing hooked up to the TV in the living room that I don't have sitting at my desk is a 360. Which I'll eventually have at my desk. The 15" monitor was recently added so I could write while I was playing (it's important to note that I'm actually writing on the 21" and gaming on the 15", heh).