f13.net

Some friends of mine - not really gamers but people who pick a game and play it faithfully for years (DAoC and WoW primarily) have been asking about EVE. I thought about pointing them here but a). they wouldn't understand what the hell is going on b). i don't want to inflict some of you with my less 'enlightened' associates. So i threw together a quick intro/review that is pretty fanboish but hell i like the game.

It's Here (http://razorfield.com/?p=53)

Ignore the rest of the site, mostly a CSS playground for me...

Writing style is pretty rough, is a 20 minute effort needing editing, mostly wondering if i overlooked any major pro's or con's.

You need to trim the trailing double quote from your link.

Heh ta :P

I think you gloss over the need for other people in the game.  Additionally, unlike other games, I haven't really met anyone while playing.  Now that is more me than anything else, but it is very possible to have little or no direct interaction with people in EVE unless you make some effort toward making it happen.  And you need that to happen, because the world is vast, but not terribly deep without other players.

Hmmm interesting. I'll think about that and stress it - EVE requires you to be in a social network regardless of whether or not you actually 'group' with anyone. Interesting for me as this is the first game i joined with an intact set of contacts - f13 - as opposed to starting out on my own and either pulling in friends from other games or meeting people ingame. That's probably coloured my judgement, EVE without f13 would be a different experience...

well written, thx

got an RSS feed for that site?

bold emphasis mine

Excellent mini-summary right there.  Don't get me wrong; I liked the review as a whole but this paragraph I thought was perfect.  I bolded those two thoughts because I am struck by the dichotomy they seem to represent on the surface.  But how when you get deeper it's really the complexity of a thing which generates it's own enjoyment.  If certain things weren't complex then they would be a grind.  And also, as you say, a n00b in a properly outfitted frigate CAN make a difference in what should be the most complex and enjoyable activity going, PVP, pretty much from the outset.

I may be sending some people a link to your summary myself. 

Nice work, squirrel. Interesting read. Probably something that belongs on the front page here...

Thanks for the link (and the thoughts).  I've been toying with the idea of trying EvE again, but there are some barriers that you may be able to help me overcome.

1) The last time I played (early after release) it played like a screensaver.  Way too slow for my tastes.  Has this improved?

2) Now that the game is established, I imagine that it's very newbie unfriendly (meaning that upon starting, I'm well behind the curve in power)

On a side note, I've been playing DAoC off and on for the past 4 years.  One of the reasons that I enjoy it, would be because of its subtle complexity.  DAoC really just suffers from the fact that the grind to get to the fun part of the game is prohibitively boring for most people.  Of course, the access to PvP is the other reason I enjoy DAoC making EvE attractive as well.

Your (or any) helpful comments would be appreciated.

You probably have an established guild in DAOC. Imagine coming into DAOC right now as a newbie.

I think having the support of the people in F13 is making EVE an enjoyable experience.

In DAoC there are classes that can be played in the endgame solo as well.  So I can come and go as I please and PvP to my heart's content without having to rely on anyone for my fun.   

Nebu, I have only recently started playing so I don't know what you mean about a screensaver other than the fact that I could probably get by playing the game using just the UI windows.  There is information in "space", as it is called, not found in the UI, so I'd rather be able to see it.  Of course, we will have to define what "play the game" means since there is a lot to do.  Combat, of course, and mining, but there is also the market game that I find fascinating.

EVE isn't newbie-unfriendly, outside of it's generally unfriendly atmosphere that is.  I am in the F13 corp, but I would still be playing even without these people.  It's not like I know anyone in my corp other than by way of these forums, anyway.  It really just saved me some time in having other players earn my trust.  The tutorial is rather adequate in getting you started, and once you run through the first agent mission and mine your first asteroid, you pretty much know what's going on.  Finding newbie asteroid belts or NPC rats is a piece of cake, and staying in empire space will generally keep you from losing your shirt too often.  It is one hundred times more newbie-friendly than UO, and I personally feel that it is even more newbie-friendly than EQ2, which I am working to understand despite my general-MOG and specific-EQ1 experience.

Soloing in EVE isn't really an option, of course.  It is entirely possible, from what I understand, to be a solo pilot but that seems like a long and hard road.  That said, I am having lots of fun doing what I want when I want.  I don't have a lot of time to play and that keeps me out of the more interesting WoW (and eventually EQ2 I assume) stuff, but given EVE's pacing and my nonreliance on others, I am able to log in and buy/sell, or kill a few NPCs, or mine a few asteroids, or test a ship configuration, using just a few minutes of my time.

There's actually plenty of stuff to do solo. Lots of folks run missions and are generally solo pirates, some run the markets, some mine and make money that way. You can do all of that stuff solo without any problems.

The thing a corp gives you is access to lower security areas (because we can provide backup in case a pirate shows up), access to blueprints (to make ships/weapons/modules) that you wouldn't normally have, a community pot of items to share among members, etc etc etc. By no means do you have to do anything with corp members, but it tends to be more fun when you are at least chatting with other folks on that long haul.

As for the barrier to entry: there are no levels. Did you read the review? You'll notice that he specifically states that newbies can help out with PvP (of all things!) almost right out of the gate. Sure, you can't fly the biggest baddest ships - but even the biggest ships can get owned by a bunch of little ships if they don't have little ships of their own to help them out.

For pace: I think they've sped it up a bit. Once you get into a non-noob frigate and get afterburners travel time isn't that bad. Of course, now that we are based in a low sec system I rarely travel more than 4-5 systems... 90% of my time is spent within 2 jumps of home base. As long as you aren't ferrying items all over the universe you won't notice the travel times much.

Anyways - you'll never know you'll like it until you try it with a buncha guys who are having fun.

If it's travel time that concerns, it only hurts until you obtain a set of bookmarks for travel.  The best cure for travel times, I think, is to not travel so much.  I have, so far, settled into three different systems and can generally keep myself entertained without leaving the system.  Shopping is the notable exception, which I approach the way a pioneer would approach going to town for supplies.  Since you start out "living in town", this isn't a huge deal for a newbie.

There are many ships that are solo-capable for pvp, or for complex running and/or ratting.  Most mission runners are 100% solo.

But the thing with EvE is, there isn't a reason to play unless you create one.  Therefore playing solo will only work for the most lone wolf personalities.  I can never last more then a month without a good, fun corp providing me with reasons to log on.

Anyone can attest that I typically log on to EvE ask if there are any pirate sightings or if any miners need coverage then promptly go afk and check back from time to time waiting for one of those two things to happen.  But I am not a solo player at all, I do belt ratting solo when I feel like it, but I do not suffer if I dont hit some quotient of isk/day, with the current ships I fly and the liquid cash I posses I would be hard pressed to get myself in any kind of trouble.

The only frustrating thing that happens is if I lose a Battlecruiser I may have to go on a long ass trip to buy another one.


EvE is a very slow game, unless you are in pvp in which case it remains very complex and often you will suffer from information overload.  I keep forgetting minor details during pvp encounters because I'm trying to take in so much information just keeping track of range, weapon damage types, tank status, capacitor and transversal velocities.  I swear I dont think I've remembered to launch drones in pvp yet.

There is a great deal of waiting in EvE I suppose. I guess I would pose this question to you assuming you have played Planetside:

If your faction captures a base, are you the type that sticks around waiting for turrets and sensors to be brought online and repairing damaged consoles or do you quickly rush to the next source of action?  If you are the latter, then EvE will be too slow I'm sure.

Its the best sandbox game out there right now.  It is a casual pvp player's dream, as well as that of more tactical minded players.  It is also a great game for those that like complex economies and exploiting them for profits as well as a host of other stuff.  If you are even considering it I dont see how you can go wrong with the two week trial and you'll want to do it now as in a month most of F13 will have moved to areas of space where new pilots can't really venture, not that we wont still be around in chat and willing to help out, but direct interaction will be severely limited until a person has the skills to handle 0.0 space.

*lose/loose, wth I think that error is the gulag's fault*

Thanks all for the feedback, EVE has definatley got me thinking about what i like about these games.

Nebu - EVE is different. It's hard to quantify but for example i spend some of my time in the game solo. That is i'm running agent missions or off killing pirates in asteroid belts alone. However, the term solo is somewhat different here. I can generally do without a group but i can't imagine not being in a corporation. The support economically and in terms of protecetion a corp offers is really not optional. Also PvP is not a solo affair at least at the beginning stages of a characters growth. Later though i imagine it's possible to be a solo pirate as easily as you can be a soloist in DAoC. But i have to stress, the requirement to be part of a social group is stronger here than any game i've played.

The game isn't noob unfriendly - it's just downright unfriendly :P Actually i'll let the more experienced players comment on 'end game' strengths but as a new player i've found it very accessible. I've been involved in several PvP fights flying nothing more than a disposable frigate against much stronger ships. Of course the above caveat remains true, i think the game is less accessible without a corporation to help out. As far as power curve goes my experience so far has been that unlike DAoC (i assume you play ToA) a noob can still focus on certain skills that make them an asset. 3 beginner frigates and a mid level cruiser can kill a tech II cruiser. We did it last night. That would be the equivalent of 3 level 20's and a new lvl 50 killing a ML8RR8 50 in DAoC. Just not going to happen very often.

As far as the pace goes, it's slower than WoW but combat is pretty stressful at times. Depends on what you choose to do i guess, i tend to stick around in 1 or 2 systems so travel time is not really that bad and i don't manufacture or trade yet, although i have an industrialist alt in training,  so the spreadsheet aspect hasn't become too prevalent. Mostly i just tear around in my frigate and look for stuff to shoot missiles at - and that to me is fun as is planning out my next skills and equipment purchases.

Travel times are only bad when making the long shopping trip back to someplace with an actual market.  Every couple weeks I load any modules worth selling onto the Badger and AFK haul them to Jita to sell off, returning with a hold full of missiles and a wallet full of ISK.

With about 5 weeks under my belt I'm flying a battleship, although my skills aren't up to PvPing in it yet--that's still the realm of the disposable frigate (Condor with whatever rockets and ABs I loot off rats).)

Being my own corporation I don't have access to a lot of the manufacturing materials the f13 crew has (BPO's, etc), but I haven't found much real need for them yet; everything I'm liable to lose is easily replaceable.  Once I get into battleship-based PvP that will change, but that will take a few weeks and by then I plan to have at least the base ship BPO (Scorpion is only about 600mil) and enough manufacturing skills to make it worthwhile.

cough, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeze. You could have just submitted it here.

Hell, you still can.  :hello_kitty:

I still think the moving out thread and Evangolis' thread in politics deserve front-page loving as well.

It's crawling it's way to you via the intarweb now. Or at least to someone who monitors the f13 email box.

Yea, that's me. I now have 3 reviews on 3 different games I have to get proofread. I'll try to hit them all tonight. Thanks muchly.

Actually, it is pretty easy.

EVE, at its core, isn't really a game.  Its a world simulator that starts like an after-school special.  The client presents you with a massive world, teaches you some basic rules, and then says, "Have fun kids, daddy is going to the store to get a pack of smokes," and then you find yourself on your own and abandoned. 

Being a massive open-ended world that relies on other players for content and currency for a measure of progress is very strange, especially when compared to games like WoW or EQ.  For some people, the experience is epic.  Others will have problems when the game fails to meet their expectations.  Having a virtual world is great and all, but its disturbing how little players can influence anything without killing each other. 

EVE supports certain playstyles and actions a lot more then others.  Compare the thrill of PvP action to industrial production and mining and you can see where certain things are totally ignored. Which is part of the problem: its a very pretty virtual world, but the more time you spend in central space, the more ridiculous the NPCs feel.

Whether or not you dig EVE is a matter of perspective.  If you dig virtual worlds, EVE is your MMOG. 

My problem is that I dig pretty much everything about the game, except what should be the best part of a game like this; combat.

The world is fantastic.  The PvP setup is a thing of beauty.  The economy is so well done that it makes the PvP have meaning, because corporations actually fight over tangible things rather than some artificial construct like "different realms".  It's free market economics with no moral constraints and very little in the way of law enforcement.  It's the closest these games have ever come to building a little Hobbesian playground.

But the combat sucks, and for me the game's gotten sort of dull.  I hate, hate, hate, not feeling like I'm actually piloting the ship.  It's a deal breaker for me, because the rest of the elements as good as they are can't overcome this fundamental flaw.

But but but, Smed says Sandbox games don't work!!!!

Oh hang on, he's full of shit

Eve isn't a Sandbox. Not like say, Spore or Garry's Mod or Sim City. There are objective and the rules aren't breakable in the sense of "sandbox" where you can build a castle, destroy it, flood it, pee on it, shit on it. The problem here is the definition of sandboxes. SW:G was much more a sandbox than Eve. Though it shouldn't have been. The alternative title for the upcoming game Steambot Chronicles, "Relaxing Non-Linear Adventure: Be A Bad Guy If You Want?," really captures the true essence of a sandbox (though the game may not). Yes, I'm trying to stir semantic shit up. Smed isn't full of shit, well, that's assuming he's challenging the idea of a sandbox. GTA was emergent sure, but it wasn't a sandbox. Someone else made a strict set of rules, despite them being varied. You couldn't fuck a cop and get chased around by hookers. There was no way to make it happen. The game wouldn't let you. Basically, let's put it this way, Smed is smarter than you think and sandbox games (specifically MMOGs), probably wouldn't work if they had WoW like populations. Fewer people, fewer problems. Eve fits that definition. If it had a million people, it'd be a fucking economic train wreck. Eve has ships, you can PvP and you can mine. There's a lot of flexbility in there, but that's the big picture.

So, yea, go ahead and debate the idea of a sandbox. Really define it. The best thing to do is to make a list of games you believe are sandboxen and then realize why they aren't. The word "misnomer" comes to mind. I hate it when geeks come up with technobabble that doesn't fit what they're defining.

Yeah, Second Life is a sandbox in too many ways EVE isn't, but we need a term to define how EVE doesn't lead you by the nose like WoW.
It's been already said in the thread. The basic premises aren't that different from EQclone VII, but somehow you can carve an "alternative playstyle" for yourself in a way you could not in those other places.

See, I'd love to get my old guildmates from Shadowclan into Eve. They lived in the Yew orc fort in UO, logged there and woke up  there, lived and trained off the stuff in the surroundings and never ventured that far except for guild-wide expeditions or player driven quests. A new orc was equiped and in the line of battle 10 minutes after character creation. And it was a extremely succesful guild.
When SC moved onto EQ, DAoC and lately WoW, the guild was a sorry shadow of itself. Their playstyle had no place there. A couple of levels of difference means different groups and  zones and there's not a single place where the whole guild can have any kind of meaningful activity.

Maybe it's a size thing and a WoW server with thousands of zones and 20000 concurrent players would be more worldly. Part of the fun in EVE is exploring new areas, getting to know what the locals are up to, setting somewhere you call home for a  while instead of just following the crowd to your next level-mandated theme park.

I really will have to take your word for that, they 'whys' etc are a topic for another thread /derail

Why should 'sandbox' be so tightly defined? Why is it not acceptable for 'sandbox' to simply means (in this context) and game world that puts you in it, gives you a bunch of rules and then lets you get on with whatever the hell you want to do in it?

I think I know why though, because people (for some obscure reason) would find a way to put the level treadmill games into that catagory too (probably with a phrase like "well you dont have to treadmill you can hang around in Freeport and, err, you know, do other stuff if you want")

If you want to be really picky any game with any rules at all (even community conduct ones) shouldn't be called a sandbox either because you still aren't able to do absolutely anything and everything you want in it.... (not that I'm advocating you should I'm just being as akward as the next guy)

The combat sucks versus npc's, but that is a given at least in my mind.  But I have found the pvp combat in EvE to be quite tactical with plenty of mistakes that can be made.  It is too bad though, as if you dont enjoy the combat you are kind of screwed if your not the robber baron, space trucker, industrial type.

I want to thank you all for your comments and feedback.  I'm seriously considering trying this game again as the tactical side of pvp seems rather interesting.  I may be bugging you all with random noob-type questions in the near future.

Remind me to never borrow your monitor.

Virtual shit, WAP, virtual shit.

So your virtual shit doesnt stink?

I actually just subscribed myself, reactivating a previous trial account I had played around with awhile ago, and started a new character.  I'd like to screw around with the upper end PvP, so I figured I should get an account going and start grinding my skill levels up.  Luckily, I had made about 30 million ISK with the old char during the trial, so I transferred most of that over to my new creation, allowing me to buy nicer shit right off.  Could I possibly get into the F13 guild somehow, since everybody goes off about needing a corp to actually play the game?  Of course, you probably won’t see much of me for 2 months till I am able to actually be able to do something worthwhile, heh.

There are a couple of things though that bug me about Eve.  First, this is one of the grindyist games I have played since EQ1.  You need to go grind ISK endlessly if you want to do anything, and there is no real fun way to do it.  Going around killing rats endlessly is about the most entertaining way, but not that great, and much slower than mining or trucking.  Anything combat related requires you to grind for hours in order to pay for the bill (supplies, cost of destroyed ships, insurance, clones, ect.).  It’s just annoying to be forced back into it, since I kind of got spoiled with WoW and its faster paced, constant combat, that usually had some sort of point (quest). 
       Another problem is the players.  With out a doubt, from what I have seen in game and reading message boards, Eve players are some of the most arrogant, condescending catass's I have yet seen in a MMOG.  They go on and on about how god damn smart they are, and how everybody else who plays or even thinks of playing another game is far below their vast intellect.  It just drives me up the god damn wall.  It’s like playing a MMOG filled with the comic book guy from the Simpson’s.  They are also obsessed with making death a big penalty, like deleveling in EQ (which I also hated).  Now I know why all the uber raiders I know in WoW play Eve as well.
       Finally, the lack of a world.  One of the things I like about a MMOG is the ability to explore he world, see new things.  I spent hours and hours of play time exploring WoW at lower levels when I first got the game, and looking for landmarks from the previous games.  In Eve, however, if you have seen the first zone you start in, you have seen the entire game.  There’s no substance to anything, nothing to go explore or check out.  The game is completely empty, except for a Hubble telescope screensaver in the background.  I know the game concentrates on other things, but I just miss actually having a world to interact with :(.

But yeah, going to give Eve another shot, since I like several of the concepts behind the game.  If anything, maybe I’ll find a way to piss of the Elitists, heh.

Actually, at one point early in the game, a group of pirates effectively blocked off empire space and slaughtered everyone.  When the cops showed up, the pirates killed/tanked the cops and kept right on going.  The group was eventually driven off, and spent most of its time chasing, and being chased by, other pirates. 

EVE might not be a perfect sandbox, but its close enough so that a lot of people are more then happy with the result.  Judging by the recent patches, CCP is trying to move closer and closer to 'more perfect sandbox' (whatever other people want that to mean). 

Weird.  Eve is one of the least grindy games I've ever played; I love the fact that I stop playing entirely for two weeks and my character is better when I come back.  While I admit I'm working on smaller ships rather than racing to the expensive battleships, money has never been a problem for me.  I find mining boring, so I run missions or rat in asteroid belts, or even play pirate.  I can't do that as a corp member, but luckily Viin accidently kicks me out of the corp every so often. 

With the right set of missions, I can get 1-2 mil an hour on just level 2's, occasionally much more if uber loot drops or I get a great agent offer.  In the last few days alone, I made 30 mil off two easy courier missions for my storyline agent with implants as rewards.  I'm told that you can make a hell of a lot more mining, but you typically need a group to do it.  Once my current sell orders go through, I'll have far more money than I can reasonably spend. 

Definitely join the corp, or even just the chat channel F13.  With access to the corp hangars (and other useful things), outfitting a new ship takes 90% less time and money, and even getting the ship can be much cheaper when you get someone to make it from a bpo or bpc.   

@Teleku:
-I'm not sure I follow the grind comment, I've heard it several times though.  I agree with the general sentiment that activities that dont revolve around other players aren't that fun.  But if you fly smart and insure your ship its pretty hard to take any steps backwards when it comes to your wallet.  At 30mil with a new character you should be sitting pretty, your only real expense is skill books which aren't bad other then the advanced learning skills which run you about 450k I believe.  But you could probably break even running missions for 2-4 hours a week over the next two months while you skill up.  Plus flying a frigate tackler in pvp is a rush no matter how you slice it, ask anybody in the corp  :-D

-I like EvE's playerbase, people talk in local once you get out of the huge empire hubs (where they talk but it is more like WoW general chat) because you get to know the other people who fly a given area.  Even our enemies have been nothing that even remotely resembles a gank/griefer type player in most MMO's.  The maturity level is through the roof, newb corp chat never rubbed me the wrong way either but I have to say I'm nowhere near as touchy about what other people decide to talk about as most ppl on f13.  As for death penalty, the game wouldn't work without it, this isn't WoW and it isn't trying to be.  Thank god for that.  Getting a ship blown out from under you sucks, and getting podded sucks more (esp if you have implants in) but that is how the world works.  Some people don't mind, some like it and some hate it.

-While its true that the visuals are nice, but they dont really matter, CCP has tried to add more points of interest with the various deadspace missions, complexes and the like.  It doesn't matter to me either way (I never understood the whole explorer mentality) but I guess I see what you are saying.  On the flip side, exploring in EvE can get you podded, quickly, nothing like running a dangerous route through space where there have been some recent podkillings to get the blood pumping as you jump.  Your not going to get that zoning into a high level area in an EQ clone.

Just wanted to quote this for emphasis. TheBoB - a pilot we were at war with for a while - was a really decent guy, funny as hell. Even when he was blowing me out of space, he wasn't trash talking me. We had a long conversation in local about whether interceptors look better in powder blue or fuscia. This was as he was excorting my pod back to neesher (he'd podded twice that night, guess he felt bad.)

I don't find the community to be arrogant or elitist at all, but as in all things YMMV.

You get some smack-talk in local in 0.0 from time to time, but most people have figured out that talking trash in local tends to get you called the primary target and turned into pod-bait.

--Dave

Nice review.  Now I am thinking of trying.  So, can I just merchant myself in this game?  Pull off something similar to Firefly, without obviously the on planet high jinx?

Well, it depends. If you start a character with racial frig 4 (say, minmatar) and spaceship command 3 you can get into cruisers. Buy Min cruisers level 1 with that char and get it to 1. Training mining to rank 4 (might take a few days with no learning skills)

Now buy that character a Scythe and some Miner 2s. With this very poorly developed character you can make about 12 million isk/hour where I am currently.

But yeah, that's mining. Who wants to do that? It takes more skills to get into an effective ratting ship, but once there you can make good cash doing that too. Some of the faction stuff dropped sells good. Yadda yadda. Just depends if you really NEED the cash. You can sit down one night with a 12 pack of good beer and knock around asteroids for 5 hours and that'll finance a weeks worth of tooling around getting blown up by people with 50x more skill points than you have.

Like I said, it all depends. It's as grindy as you make it.

If you want quick fun, look around near where you are for Ice Fields. The isk farmers love those. All you need is a friend, a hauler, and a shuttle. Guy with the hauler goes up near the group of farmers and waits. Guy with the shuttle goes up to them, jettisons a can (we use bookmarks, anything to create a cargo container) and drags the ore from the farmers' can to his can.

Once the ore is in shuttle's can, the hauler guy takes it from there without flagging as hostile to the miners. Warp to station, dump, return, repeat.

Guy with the shuttle has to be on his toes, though, because eventually the farmers will have their BATTLE-CHINKS log on. These guys are jokes though. We've killed 4 ravens this week (got them killed by CONCORD, by timing the aggression timer as we warp back to the belt.) and around 10 haulers. Each raven is.. 98M? Pretty expensive to replace.

Anyways, a hoarder only takes Industrial 2 and it's 500k, so it's not too hard to get into. Shuttles are 9k each. Each piece of ice is 1,000 m3 and you can refine it and sell it that way or I've just been cheap and selling it in bulk for 82.5k each piece. I'm losing about 5k a piece by not refining, but it's easier. 9 pieces of ice per load (3x +18% cargo expanders in a hoarder) so if you haul one load you've paid off your hoarder.

Yup. In fact from what I can tell if you're just starting it's better to specialize in something - ie. merchant/industrialist/trader, combat/piracy, science/research, as you're better able to quickly get the relevant skills up to speed. I have a character who couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag but who hopefully will be a killer miner/builder.

I've just been bumbling along with my trial account char, and it isn't too bad.  I mostly have been running courier missions in secure space, and I've bought three new frigates, (only lost one, an Executioner, to rats on a Level II mission) just trying out the various offensive/defensive weapons systems.  Not thrilling, but not really grindy yet, mostly because if I get bored, I hook up training on Learning V and go do something else for 1 to 36 hours.

@Raging Turtle
Yeah, from the sounds of it, hopefully money wont be so annoying to get at higher levels (from what everybody has said so far).  Agent missions actually sound like a good way to get money, since I'm mainly wanting to try combat anyways, but I keep getting god damn courier missions, which started killing my very soul after the 6th one.  Man travel takes forever.  I need to figure out the agent system better though, hopefully I can work it to get solo'able combat missions (running around in a kestral my old trial account char had, which I gave to the new one.  Caldari missles ftw!).  I just still feel the game is more grindy than it should be though, with how slow getting ISK is at low level, and how slow it is to do missions.  While I agree the whole training offline thing is cool, I do have issue with it, mainly in how slow that goes as well.  It starts taking a really long friggen time to train those skills.  It just seems like one giant cockblock to me.  Forces me to stay subscribed for a REALLY long time before I can start flying the upper end ships and using upper end weapons.  Sometimes I wish they would add in a way for me to make it go faster.  I wouldn't care if it was some stupid mindless task that I just repeated over and over again, at least I would feel like I'm advancing more.  5 days to auto train a skill?  Screw that, let me advance it, I know I could do it way faster than that! :)

@Hoax
I kind of expanded on my grindy comment above in my reply to Raging Turtle.  Just over all, I think it just takes to long too do anything at lower level (mine, agent runs, trade), and its really borning.  Thats what I call grinding, heh.  I'll fully acknowledge that it could be all fine and fun once you get leveled up and out into 0.0 space (since I haven't yet gotten that far), but I think its a major flaw in the game that newbie players are forced through hot coals for awhile.  Especially if they dont have any contacts in game already and no corp to jump into to help, as the pain is prolonged till they get established (grind enouph money for ships, make friends and contacts, ect.)
I was just curious how you mean that?  One of the coolest things I've found is exploring high level zones in MMOGs, since they are usually the coolest looking, and there is always that danger.  I spent days in WoW running around with my level 28 hunter exploring new zones and up to all the top end zones.  You are always in big danger of getting mauled by some crazy mob you've never seen before.  Its double exciting in WoW if you play on a PvP server, since then you are dodging high level players left and right.  Never know when I need to go jump into a bush when I see some group of level 60's comming down the road.  So yeah, was wondering why you say that, gets my blood pumping great, heh. ;)

evegeek.com.  Hit the 'mission types' button.  Odds are you're working for an agent class that gives a lot of courier missions.  That path leads only to madness and grief.  Find a combat agent and save your soul.

Get all the basic learning skills to III or IV, that speeds it up a little.  Once you hit frigate IV, you can go into Cruisers, which offer a lot more punch than frigates.  Or you can do Destroyers with III, but they aren't very effective IMO.  Or you can go a little crazy and train up to Frigate V, and start getting the skils for Interceptors and Assault Frigates if you like the little ships.   

Hate to say it, but training in EVE is as only as much of a grind as you make it - becoming a competant pilot / merchant / minor / whatever just needs you to train up the core skills for that role a little, and then you're set to go out and have fun.

Becoming highly specialised or the "best" in your niche is where you start running into the skill grind - all in the name of getting that extra 2%.   Those little extra %'s won't make you enjoy EVE any more or less, and a lot of the time there's another way to get them without training (implants, named items etc).

To echo what squirrel said earlier, having a goal and working towards it seems to be the way to go - work out the required skills you need to train and once you reach your goal start building up the support skills that turn you from just average in that role to really good at it.


You didn't say what your goals were in relation to the high-end ships, but (with my noob hat on) it seems like high-end ships (BS, BC, HAC etc) can nearly always have their asses handed to them by smaller ships when those smaller ships are well piloted and setup intelligently for the type of target they'll be facing.

In a nutshell that'd seem to mean that you don't need to have the most pimped out battleship to enjoy the high-end gameplay because there will always be a place in the team for every role.

Try Internal Security for missions, I draw combat every time there.

I don't expect low security space to be particularly neat looking relative to high security space.  Graphically, I find EVE to be nice wallpaper, nothing more.

One of the reasons I'm still in High Sec space is that I can offset travel boredom by doing work around the house while the ship travels on autopilot.  We shall see how the game goes once I get a computer that I hope will run combat in something other than slide show mode.

Can you have more than one character advancing in skill at the same time on the same account?

Only 1 character per account can be training skills. Aye , theres the rub

I am still on my first month, but for me the "world" is not the belts and stations, it's the connection of the systems.
http://www.eve-files.com/media/corp/CRII/Latest.jpg

If anything PvP is more scary in Eve than WoW since you'll lose your whole ship than just die and have to run from the graveyard.

If you want Combat missions try agents from

Command
Security
Internal Security
Surveillance

They'll give 95% Kill missions.

If you want excitement that's not grindy go Rat in a low sec area but be warned you might die.

Some tips are to always keep an eye on local and check out new comers
like someone said early have a safe spot and instas (the corp has some for the area we're based at)
Finally check the map and display settings under stars and check ships killed, pods killed in the last hour, pilots in stations, active in space and jumps to see how highly populated or used as a highway the system you're aiming to rat at.

Ratting with a partner makes it less grindy plus you can take on alot more, me and Megrim killed a 1.4mill bounty Battleship with two frigates. He lost his Rifter though XD

But yeah otherwise have fun!

That seems like a strange comment, how can you have a virtual world without a world? I like exploration but it seemed like exploring EVE was just like rotating your desktop wallpaper. Great, here' s a new system, the nebula is a different shape and color *yawn*. Granted I didn't stray all too far from the newb areas during my trial, but I didn't see anything to get excited about. Sure EVE has virtual-worldy mechanics, but I think that's just the thing, the game is all mechanics, so much of it is so abstract.

I guess that was my main problem with the game, it's just too abstract, too cerebral. Not that I want a dumb game, I just need something more tactile, more immediate. I didn't feel like I was playing  EVE, I felt like was interfacing with a set of mechanics and numbers and details, and it all kind of hurt my brain for very little reward. And the travel time just plain sucks. After FFXI I swore off "AFK gaming" and warpjumping in EVE was just as bad as sitting around LFG in FFXI.

Because for a large amount of people the 'world' being referenced is social, political and economic, not pseudo-physical. WoW for example has tonnes of geography to explore, all of it trivialized by the fact that everyone is channeled into instances.

So if your looking for mountains and coastlines to map, no EVE isn't your thing. But that in no way reduces it's 'world' aspects.

I've found that any game can be eventually reduced to "interfacing with a set of mechanics" some games might hide this more then EVE but in the end if you min/max enough all MMO's become just a series of numbers and details wouldn't you say?  Not that I have a problem with the statement at all, I think it is a decent insight into why some people just can't like EVE even if the ideas in theory should be something they would like.

As for the travel time issues, various people have commented on how that really is a non-factor if you accept it is a reality of the game and an avoidable one at that.  It is hardly the time of painful time-waste that the forced grouping in FFXI (is?) was.

I think I can try to quantify that by saying it isn't "human" enough. I can't land on planets. I can't invade planets. My ship doesn't have a crew that ejects when it explodes. I can't appoint officers which give me stat boosts or some such to how the ship runs. I can't board other ships with Marines. I can't salvage anything. It feels very robotic and alien without much of a human face on anything. The "NPCs" are just as static and boring as any other MMOG. There is no bar or pub at the stations where people can mingle or get quests or whatever (Privateer/Wing Commander had a bar, Wasteland had bars, Pirates! had a bar).

Earth & Beyond had minimal characters when you landed on a space station and it was a pain in the ass though to run to the "terminal" to trade something. AutoAssault has the same kind of thing with the characters tacked on for use in towns to basically run to a vendor terminal and then leave. I don't think either of those two are a good example of how to do it "right" though.

DarkSpace does allow you to build crap on planets (from space) and even space station defences but the problem was that all the planets are built up and defended already.

Yup.


Exactly. I kept wanting to like the game. I could see why players could get really into it, I just couldn't. Really liked the offline skill training too. Immersion is really important to me though ...  a game like WoW hides the min/maxing numbergame much better ... well not so much hides, it just is more of a minigame to a more tactile, personal, and identifiable gameworld experience.

I can relate to the lack of immersion (especially since your avatar is only a portrait) it was offputting to begin with, unfortunately I wanted Eve to be more like Elite/X-Beyond the frontier and less like Supremacy/Rebellion (in terms of the space combat) - it doesnt bother me much now, just a case of accepting it if you want to play it

If we ever see it, Online Universe (x-beyond the frontier online basically) should be more to your tastes, given how much its slipped timescale wise (but then so did X2) it may just be a pipedream

I would love to see the bastard child of EVE + PlanetSide.

Ah, I can dream. :cry:

Future plans for EVE include planetary stuff, but who knows when that will arrive.

It might do some good for the game to put in animated avatars, even if they didn't really have a function, but it's not something I feel I am missing out on.

I'm not missing the avatars either but it is kind of a disappointment about no crew and no ship boarding because I played Nexus: Jupiter Incident right before EVE and it had both of those. I'd prefer to steal some guy's battleship than to just blowing it up.

Planetary stuff would require an incredible ammount of people to pull off. It's one of those things that only works when lots of people are playing it.

It's pretty hard to do. At launch you'd need lots of people, and if you don't get lots of people then everyone will quit. Then you'll NEVER have lots of people and your game fails because these huge battles aren't huge and Battlefield XXXX does it better.

Or to sum that up in a single word - Planetside.

My ship IS my avatar.  I'm fine with that.  Now, customization, that's another thing.  Even If they'd just plaster my corp insignia on the hull a-la Planetside I'd be thrilled.  

Krakrok is absolutly correct on the ship boarding thing, though.  I want to be able to board and steal other people's ships.  Add-ons like "troop pods" from MOO2, and skills for training a crack assault squad so you can have a better crew/ space marines would be fantastic.  It'd also make 'self destruct' a lot more sensible.  You'd be weakening the boarding party's ship, not just destroying all your stuff out of spite for the pirate who's got you locked-down.

It is possible to pirate another player's ship - you just need to convince them to eject and warp away, and once they're gone you switch your ship for theirs.  Works on people who can't pay the ransom and/or don't want to lose their implants over their ship. 

This is limited by thefact that you need to be able to fly their ship, but its better than nothing.

More customization would be a cool thing, how awesome would kill marks ala old school fighter planes be?  For each killmail you are involved in you get one on your ship.

Just an FYI alliances do have special player-created logos that appear on the ships of the alliance, Huzzah's is a weed leaf looking thing in silver that says Huzzah for example.

http://www.eve-online.com/alliances/a_1041482450.asp

I know what you mean, that would be cool, but seems like it would totally change gameplay if you could capture ships... you know, without losing yours.  The other guy would probably just self-destruct anyway.

There is talk of a graphical upgrade in 2006, I would like to dream that they could put a bit of customization in.  At the minimum, corp decals like Merusk said.  Just some tinting options would be nice, too, if paintjobs are completely out.


How awesome?  Totally fucking.  However, I'd request that I get kill marks for asteroids. ;-)

Planetary stuff, I can see them doing in stages.  They like to do things incrementally, so I think the initial foray into planetside gameplay would not be PVP battle but resource gathering.  First off, it's easier to just plant ore or archaeological sites on a planet, and second it would be in character for them to just place "bait" out there and let the players fight over it.  This would probably be simple orbital blockades/slugfests until some sort of surface warfare was implemented.  But Nija is right about the amount of work in delivering the total package.  It would be like some other game inside the main game.

By the way, the review was frontpaged. :)

(Insert EVE affiliate link after article please Schild). Whore yourself!

That ain't a half bad plan, really. Might as well pimp a decent game.