f13.net

Here is a screenshot of my team beating the premier alliance team on my server.  Check out our ranks vs their ranks.  Also notice that my team just hit 60 last week and everyone on my team is at their highest rank ever (not decaying back down), while some of those Marshal are on the way DOWN from having hit GM recently.  No one in my guild has been into a raid instance ever, our first AQ20 raid is this weekend.  That other team regularly does MC and BWL.

http://www.angrymob.org/vgg.gif

I'm one of the best equiped people in the guild, wearing my blue pvp armor up to rank 8 on this character, plus defilers and wsg items (but I'm not yet exalted in either with this character, so no epics).  I have one purple, an underworld band.  Five members of our team have epic mounts, the rest do not.  This screenshot is our win against their full team, immediately before this battle we fought 10 of their team members with 5 pugs (I have no clue why 5 of them weren't queued at that point) and won by ~800 points, so they were (most likely) trying hard to "teach us a lesson".  At one point we were down by 300 points or more, we had to actually cap 4 nodes for about 10 seconds to win (we got the 3rd node and one of our team members with an AB mod said "I hate to break it to you, but with 3 we lose by 10 points", so we had to push and get a cap on 4 in order to win).

I played AB all day yesterday and my team lost one game (we came back and beat that team several times after that point).  I know little about the epic gear on other classes, but I see (and kill) warlocks in full nemesis all the time.  That's full BWL gear while I'm wearing full blues (as I said in another thread, 4.2k hp and +270 damage).  So my question, is epic gear really that overbalanced, or are the whines maybe going slightly overboard?

I think that situation there is a description of what happens when you essentially put gear up against teamwork. Teamwork will usually win unless vastly outgeared. IMO, having good gear makes teams weaker when they are used to the steamroll effect of what it does. When they face a team that actually coordinates and can hold up to their gear, while maybe not matching it, they will get beaten. As your example shows, it's not a landslide, but it's doable.

No, its not.  At least not in group pvp.  I was in a pvp guild for a long time, most of our members hit 60 and inmediately started pvping without ever setting foot in any instance yet we still won 90% of our games and they very slowly geared up with bg and pvp gear.  In 1 v 1 fights equipment makes all the difference, i guess if there was a team deathmatch battleground gear would make all the difference there too.  In AB and WSG good tactics and organisation will trump even the best geared team 9 times out of 10.

What Paelos said.

Even the Horde PUGs on my server work together better than Alliance PUGs of +rank folks.  If it's not a case of better teamwork, then it'd have to be Horde is overpowered racially and class-wise, but that's a load of crap.

That other team is an organized team.  They are on vent like we are.  They have strategies like we do.  This was an organized team against THE organized team (not just any organized team, every other horde team on our server immediately /afks against these guys, they are probably the "best" team on our server atm).  That was a full guild team from one of the best pvp guilds on the other side (not just some epic geared BWL guild that happened to be pvping that night).  That team produced 2 gms in one week, then another gm the following week just recently. 

Now, we have fought several epic geared BWL guilds that just happen to be pvping that night and we usually win against them with a much larger margin (like 800-1000 point wins).  We probably could do better against them, but our first 60 team was fielded last Thursday, so we tend to play conservative and try not to over extend in AB.  We shoot for a 3 cap and defend, sometimes against really crappy teams we'll go for a 4 cap and defend (but we'll fall back at the first sign of trouble).  We have 5 capped several pugs in the 60s, but we're weary of that because it can lead to a loss if we get too spread out.

They expected to kick your cunt into the middle of next week.  They got overconfident and you owned them.  Well done.

It's not really that indicative of the equipment differential.  Which, to answer your question, is Huuuuuge.

:)

I thought that the first time we beat them (and we beat them much worse the first time), but this was the second game back to back where we had just won by 600 points, AND we've fought them before and won (though they have beaten' us before as well).  So if they are still in the "we're going to kick your cunt into the middle of next week" phase of our relationship, they are really slow learners.


I really don't think it's that huge.  I often try to go 1v1 in these game against people I know have epic gear (though not in the game I linked above, way to close to go do something silly like a 1v1), and I rarely lose.  Granted I can tell the difference, they certainly hit harder than others and I do lose to them, which is saying something since I almost NEVER lose to a person in equal equipment.  But I also think people wearing epic gear probably have more experience behind the keyboard than a guy in all blues or greens..

If I go into a duel with a fellow Rogue with Epic gear in my current getup, I'm gonna get ambushed into the middle of next week.

I fought an Epic warlock only to find out that he had more health than my lvl 60 tank setup Warrior due to his epics.  I couldn't kill him fast enough before he siphoned my life out my buttcheeks.

I previously mentioned in another thread about how I got bonked with Sulfuron, Hand of Ragnaros or whatever that huge orange hammer of death is.  It really hurt.  Like, really.


I don't personally believe that your equipment is as low end as you say it is.  1v1, equipment plays a huge part assuming equal skill.

In BG's I agree that teamwork is MORE important, but having been perditioned in the back more times than I can count, equipment still HELPS LOTS.

Further, you say that having epic gear means the guy knows how to play his class and fight better.  NO.  NO NO NO and ONE THOUSAND TIMES NO.  It could just mean you're very good at sticking your tongue in the catass raid-guild leaders hole.


(oh, and PS, overconfidence takes a few succesful iterations before the ego breaks down and realises that it's gonna have to work for this one.  Otherwise it's put down as 'fluke' or something equally shitty.)


EDITED TO ADD MY FINAL ALL-CAPS POINT :  GETTING GM IN WOW DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE GOOD AT PVP.  IT JUST MEANS YOU HAVE TIME FOR PVP.  YOU DO NOT LOSE POINTS EVAR.

:)

Lemme simplify it for you.


Alliance sucks. That's it.

Also, good luck with that hunter once your damage is normalized. I'm sure you'll probably do fine, but finally, all the fucking newb hunters will come back down to earth.

Aimed shot + auto shot + scatter shot = "I win" button for fucking newbs.

Also, gear is probably the number one reason most alliance teams EVER win. And I watch a lot of AB.

I said I'm one of the best equipped (the guy who took that screenshot has at least 5 greens last I counted), I'm in all blues.  My equipment:

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=40012
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=40013
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=40014
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=40015
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=51594
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=40658
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=5646
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=34289
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=34286
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=52389
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=38514
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=20675
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=52032
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=20923


I'm asking if maybe the equipment thing is just a little overblown.  I  have no doubt it helps, but does it really help as much as the overblown hyperbole makes it out to be?


No, not quite what I said.  I was more or less saying "epiced gear'd people are MORE LIKELY to have spent more time playing (thus have more experience) than people will greens".  Epics don't equal skill at all (hence my question) and I have doubts as to wether or not epics can actually help the unskilled overcome the skilled at all.  But when people encounter someone with epics that destroys them, perhaps they are actually encountering a more skilled player and it's not all equipment?  Maybe occasionally people lose because they just aren't as good as the other guy?


I'll keep you updated.  But we have been fighting and winning against these guys for a full weekend now.  If they aren't trying yet I'm pretty shocked that it's taken them a full weekend to start.  Maybe tonight they'll 5 node us and gy camp us and I'll come here and whine about how equipment is unfair.. *shrug*..

I didn't take that screenshot.  That is a teammate of mine.

Newsflash: Most people suck monkey balls at PVP. Most people also cannot admit they suck, so blame it on whatever the current acceptable scapegoat is, often as loudly as possible on the forums, whether that scapegoat is the flavor of the month class/template, or overpowered epic gear.

We both know the truth is most people just suck at it and can't admit to themselves how much they suck at it.

I have been raiding a few months and have mostly purples.  I suck terribly at PvP.  Hence, I mostly lose.  As far as I'm concerned that's quod est demonstrandum.

That's basically my point.  Only I think there is one part "suck at pvp" mixed with one part "well their equipment is better than me so I won't try because there is no chance."  I disagree with the second statement, the equipment, in my very very naive and limited experience, makes a difference, but doesn't make a game stoping lvl 1 vs lvl 60 (or even a lvl 50 vs lvl 60) difference.  I think if more people tried, they'd realize that 90% of the epic geared l33t pvpers are soft and squishy on the inside.

What Ironwood said.

Really, they're all epiced-out it means nothing for their skill.  They're PvE players waiting-out the timer on their instances. The GM weapons are the most-accessible (for those with assloads of time) and are guaranteed rather than the random chance off of a boss.  The last Alliance GM on my server did it just because he wanted a weapon upgrade, not because of some love for PvP.  He's retired now so he can focus on AQ/ BWL with his guild.  All it took him was a shitton of time, and getting into the BG every day, every time it popped-up and re-queuing immediately afterwards.

I'd suspect that since all your guild has been PvPing the whole time you've been leveling, Cevik, that you guys are simply better at it.  You've got mods for it, strats and counters worked-out.  You all might even do the assist train thing, which even epic-geared folks can't stand up against.

Also, I agree with Haemish. People suck at PvP. WoW's system doesn't help this... their goals seem to be "can I get the most kills!?" rather than "what will it take to win for our side?"    Far, Far, FAR too many people get tunnel vision when PvPing and focus on the guy in front of them beating them with a stick, rather than the guy two steps away healing his ass. I've watched druids run into melee a bunny-hopping jackass rogue along with the warrior already trying to take him down instead of simply rooting jack jumprabbit and healing the war.  Why? For the HK of course! I want that meaningless killing blow stat to jump up so I can be at the top of the kill board, becuse we're going to lose anyway.   ARGH.  :cry:

Gear helps A LOT and it helps carry a LOT of mediocre people a long way, but nothing makes-up for experience and knowledge.

Well I think that's my point all over again.  Gear helps, but it doesn't help as much as everyone is saying.  Gear can be overcome with knowledge and skill.  It's not nearly as bad as it's been made out to be.

Gear CAN make a huge diffeence. If two organized teams go up against each other usually gear is push to one team. Yeah, its not a guarenteed win. But in AB when trying to take a flag, gear can make the difference in getting it before the other teams back up can arrive or not.

On the PvE side, people constantly bitch that there isn't enough of a gear differential (i.e., "WTF I spent a jillion hours and paid $50 to playerauctions in repair bills learning new_raid_092 for 1 stamina and 3 spirit?").  But it's enough of a deal to piss casual PvPers off, so Blizz got the worst of both worlds on that one.  They should've introduced some auto-scaling mechanic with the battlegrounds, but people have been saying that for a long time.

UO and 4 years of DAoC have me in total agreement with this statement.

Gear will only determine the winner in contests between equally skilled players playing nearly balanced classes.  Of course this is only for cases where the RNG doesn't also decide the outcome.

While thats basically true, what the pvers are complaining about is that their tier x+1 upgrade is only marginally better than their tier x stuff, but its still light years ahead of the casuals -15x blue crap.

I've allways thought that most people who play mmog's with levels and gear don't want a level playing field.  They want time to be the most important factor, because they lack the skill to actually use tactics.  It almost seems like the time requirement is also in place to keep out the FPS crowd, the ones who are used to teamwork and being aggressive.  I can remember playing Tribes and some of the players were chatting about how they had hopes on DAoC and how it was going to be a good skill based game where tactics and not time was going to matter.  About 1 month later they were back in Tribes bitching about how it is another level fest to get to RvR.

But on the other hand, would the mmog'ers be driven off, if say the game company said, "come join the war, when you join a battleground everyone is level 60, everyone gets the same gear and items per their class, points for better equipment and rank get earned by doing things on the battleground (capture enemy forts, kill enemy players/npc's), and the better equipment isn't that much better."  I think most would be screaming that the game company just turned the end game pvp/rvr into BF2/Planetside/UT2K.  Hmm...cool idea, the level would be split up, one level for pve for those that want to do that, and one rank that is set even for everyone for pvp.

Short answer: Gear matters 100% in pugs. It matters say 25-50% in a vent group where people properly support each other. It also affects some classes a lot more than others, for example, an epic geared druid, paladin, warrior, rogue is much more dangerous than a green or blue geared one. Epics also do not indicate a presence of skill, nor does being in a vent. My guild hits the battlegrounds on occasion and frankly, most of us suck. We're still in vent though.

I just want to add that on my server we have a PvP Group.  They're assholes.  High-end PvP assholes.  Every couple of weeks there'll be ANOTHER post on the forums saying 'Gratz to this server's newest GM 'Fuxxalot' - Praise him with high praise'.

Which would be fine, except that when you look at the rankings you realise that to make a GM all this Guild has to do is get the current GM to STOP FUCKING PLAYING FOR FIVE MINUTES.

PvP in WoW is fun.  I like it.  I go in and Shank other players.  It's addictive and cool.

But it's also broken and stupid beyond belief. 

I think having all the teams go in with normalised equipment at the exact same level and then losing points for dying and gaining points for winning would be so great.  And, when you win, you get your title, of course, but all you get beyond that is medals.

Sigh.  It's not going to happen.  Ever.

The screenshot in the first post made me poop in a sock.

I don't know that I agree.  I think lack of organization matters 100% in pugs.  I think all of the guys in either of our teams could buy full greens for the melee and be completely naked for the casters, and we could show up and beat pugs 100% of the time, usually without breaking a sweat.  The more and more gear that a group has the more and more likely they are to be organized (because they use that organization for getting pve gear in some cases, or like the team above, because they use that organization to churn out GMs).  So people blame the gear when they are really losing to an organized opponent.  The gear is a good patsy, but not the true reason for the loses.

I puged a bit last night just to get the idea (I pvped 3 days this week and I have 176k honor, being in an organized team is great for honor).   I saw a 12 man zerg head to farm, and the idiots on my team actually fought it.  I kept saying in /ra "if they have 12 at the farm, then we should own bs, mine, lm and stables" but no one would listen, the typical response was "we HAVE to have farm".  They let those guys keep the nodes they had (stables, lm and farm) and they threw themselves at the zerg over and over and over and over and over until th game ended. Gear had nothing to do with that, you'll never get through a 12 man d on one node, never.  But people get into the "ohh their gear is so much better than ours that it's impossible to win" mode, and they just act like morons.

Teamwork matters a lot. Crushridge had a PvP guild on alliance side *without voice comms* that defeated vent-coordinated BWL-geared horde teams in close battles (2000-1800 and such). We also have an insanely-geared alliance PvE guild (I'm talking about "we give our hunters askhandi because all our warriors and pallies have it" level of gearedness) that occasionally does a 15-man zerg in battlegrounds, dominating most of the opposition. BUT when they came up against an organized horde PvP guild (mostly clad in low end MC gear and blues, with two HWLs), they got rocked hard.

However, in pickup groups [which is what most of my pvp is], world pvp and AV, gear is everything. I could list about 3 pages of anecdotal evidence here from my rogue, warrior or warlock pov, but... nah.

Strazos: kek. Actually I've seen a lot of horrible horrible horde players (no denying that a lot of alliance suck, but eh), and I dare say it takes more skill to play a warlock as alliance than horde. A lot of battleplans and specs don't survive contact with ["nerfed"] wotf, for one. That said, elves suck and need to die.


-- Z.

I meant that in a pug match, when you're against pugs and with other pugs, the gear you have can sway the outcome of the match. Being not in a pvp guild, more or less taking to the battlegrounds solo, this is most often my situation. When either side has teamwork that makes up for the gear shortfall. When I have great gear (my partially-fused-with-infinity rogue) and I join I pug (that refuses to party/raid with almost no teamwork and is basically there to farm honor) I dominate unless I'm fighting the vent group. Let's consider Teamwork a force multiplier. If you want math, I'd say something like:

Pug is classified as refusal to party and follow simple instructions
Guildies is classified as a group of casual guild members playing together, not very pvp experienced but willing to try (actually GUARDING a flag in AB for example)
Vent guildies is a pvp guild that uses teamspeak or vent

Team  -    Pug = 1, Guildies = 2, Vent guildies = 3
Gear    -    Green = 1, blue = 2, epic = 3

Your                  Opposing
(Gear * Team) = (Gear * Team)

Thus, a pug group of all epics (3) will generally lose to a guild with blues (4) and is a match for vent guildies in green (3).

It's pretty rough, but it's not completely off...

I'd say you have the right equation, but the wrong weight on the components.  I would weight much heavier on the Team variable and weight the gear variable much lighter.  Which is my overall point, I think that too much emphasis is added to the gear part of the equation when superior skill (honestly, group pvp is a test of organizational skill, if anyone thinks that organization is "unfair" in a bg, they should be shot) is the deciding factor in many many many cases.

From my experience, in being with a organized team in mostly blues and quite a few greens, then standing in with a guild team that had about the same level of equipment or slightly better, but didn't have any real "ab strategy" to speak of and wasn't using vent, I'd say the equation should be something like:

Team  -    Pug = 1, Guildies = 2, Vent guildies = 4
Gear   -    Team with better equipment = 1.5, Team with worse equipment = 1

Which is my point.. equipment helps, but not to the degree it's being advertised.  People are going to be SORELY disapointed when they farm BWL for months and months then decide "okay, now I have my full Teir 2, it's time for me to go try out this PvP thing I keep hearing about"..

P.S.:  One of the guys in my guild pronounces it "P versus P", which I find odd.  I say "P V P".. anyone else say this "P versus P" stuff?

P.P.S.:  We now regularly 5 cap PUGs and 4 cap with impunity against better geared but less organized BWL guilds who are just "having fun in a bg".. We're also becoming more aggressive because of our success with more conservative strategies.  We have both lost and won against the team I linked above, they are by far our biggest competition (there is a second team though that seems to always beat us the first time we see them in a day)..

Might want to consider the type of BG in the equation also.  Warsong Gulch's smaller area and more simplistic gameplay can make gear a huge factor.  Our random 10 man premades can turn into laughers against even the best alliance pvp premades.  Our hunters, mages, and warlocks (7K hp) can pretty much one shot people with regularity.  A DPS warrior in tier 2 gear wielding an Ashkandi can tear through people like butter and turn the odds in your favor rather easily.

Alterac is all teamwork since it's rarely ever pre-made v. pre-made (on our server at least).  The first side that shows even a resemblence of strategy and coordination is going to win.

Now this I agree with.  Completely.

I completely agree. It's trivial for a team with even moderate teamwork to dominate WSG. Anything from paladins waiting to cleanse across the field to a defended free-actioned druid in travel form (with the SMB invincible music playing in the background) is easily accomplished in a vent or with veteran pvpers and is unable to be stopped without significant teamwork on the other side. The reverse is true for AV, where it's simply send wave after wave of your own men at the problem until it shuts down, er, is pushed back. A healer can make serious difference in AV pug, but that's a different issue altogether. In general, gear matters less becuase you die to the alpha strike as you hokey pokey too close to their back row and get gibbed. Teamwork is the only thing that matters.

How about:

Green = 1, Blue = 2, Purple = 3
AV = 0.5, AB = 1, WSG = 1.5
Pug = 1, Guild = 2, Vent = 3

Team value is (Gear * Zone)  * Group

Blue Vent WSG  = 9
Purple Pug WSG = 4.5
Blue Guild WSG = 6
Green Vent WSG = 4.5

Edit:
Cevik matchup: (2*1.5)*3 versus (3*1.5)*2 is 9 to 6 domination in WSG and  (2*1)*3 versus (3*1)*2 is 6 to 6 even match in AB, even when you steamroll them. maybe Ab needs a 1.2 modifier? I don't feel it's quite at the 1.5 level, maybe a 1.3? I was hoping for whole numbers :/

PS. I say 'pee vee pee'. I sort of eyeballed the equasions in regards to AB, since that's mostly my home; I initially considered a 1-2-4 progression but I decided that made vent groups all too unstoppable even in greens, and my guild and I have beaten our share of them on our server, even sucking in pvp, becuase we're in tier 2 epics. I think for WSG that's not that bad, a green vent goes head to head on a purple pug, which is of course unlikely that a pug group would have all their players in a majority of purples... a blue vent dominates even over a guild in blues.

I think we're right on the edge of being called nerds and mocked endlessly by schild.

And yes, I will bathe in the irony. 

I'm not  big on calling people nerds for getting involved with an MMOG. Not in the way you're thinking at least. But I do think you're turning Korean.

I think I'm turning Japanese.

I really think so.

Organized teams are often used to steamrolling their opponents and can get too comfortable.  And when faced with a strategy they have rarely if ever been up against before, they will be at a distinct disadvantage and will usually take a few matches to adapt.

I was in AV last week and urged everybody to zerg their targets.  The Horde was organized and always starts by zerging our bunker, with the normal result of us putting too much focus on defense.  But this time, we caught them so badly off guard that we won in an hour and 23 minutes, even though they had better leadership.

Which is what I said.

This doesn't work the way you want it to. .5/1/1.5 weights are identical to 1/2/3, and since you're comparing WSG teams to other WSG teams, it doesn't matter at all. You probably want something like:
Gear (WSG) Green = 1, Blue = 3, Purple = 5
Gear (AB) Green = 1, Blue = 2, Purple = 3
Gear (AV) Green = 1, Blue = 1.5, Purple = 2

My experience in team-based FPS games (which is very extensive) is that it's not the team with the rocket launcher that wins; it's the team that knows what they're doing and works together. Vent makes organization easier for casual-level teams, but for the truly hardcore among the organized, organizational skill beats all else.

The point of the thread is: does equipment differential really matter that much in PvP? The answers depend on where you are:
1) in duels, heck yeah
2) in WSG, pretty much
3) in AV or AB, not so much

Gear also matters when soloing and PvE, of course. MC is cake now for guilds that have accumulated a ton of MC gear and some BWL gear. It was cake when we figured it out, too, but now it's double-layer cake.

Ask DAoC how well their battlegrounds went over. Or ask them how well it turned out when they removed level differentials for PVP combat.

I honestly think that if it was fun and unbroken, MMOG players would sort themselves out into the people who do like it and the people who don't. And the former group would outnumber the latter.

Then you are right.

I don't consider DAoC a true example of what I gave, in that they still had to level to 20 something, and they still have the grind to 50 which keeps many people out.  If they did open up a server where you were at level and rank cap and got free gear, then it would be a diffrent story, but I don't remember them doing anything like that...  I just remember that when DAoC was on the verge of coming out, many of the people I played Tribes with, were talking about how DAoC was going to be better than the other MMOGS in that it won't be all about leveling and keeping people out, about 1 month later those same people were back on the server bitchin that it had turned into another EQ.

Depending on how old your server is, that alliance PVP guild team could be really craptacular. Once the first generation of PVPers hit the ranks they want you start to see the quality of PVPers take a rapid decline. On my old server all the best players long since hit their desired rank or gave up, those who are left are those who weren't good enough to make the top teams before, never had to play against the A-teams of the past, or just PVP casually. WoW PVP has an inbuilt stopping point. There is NO reason to PVP hardcore once you have hit your desired rank. PUG PVP is really, really shitty and it is murder trying to lower yourself to that when you've experienced a great steamroll team.

Steamroll PVP groups... get boring. REAL boring. The time itself is not necessarily the problem, it's the fact that you roll stupid pug after stupid pug. The steamrollers either 5-cap for a 5-6 minute game, or it drags out to a 10-15 minute game if they decide to send almost their entire force to one node and camp it (used to be you were able to AoE down the node, but now they spread out, fuckers... but they'll do anything to get some honor/rep since their ques are 1/2 hour+). In WSG it is ALWAYS a 3/0  win and it almost never goes longer than 10 minutes. Where's the fun in that? Oh, and it's hard to get into the PVP groups unless you can do it a lot, you have to pay dues to those who can put in enough time to get you to the higher ranks, so you wont be getting a spot over anyone who is highly ranked. So if you're going casual you can forget being in an organized group unless your guild is going for shits and giggles.

Once you get your gear... why would you care where you stand? Bragging rights? Pfff, rank is a matter of time first, skill a far second (well for nowon my server it is actually pretty skillful because you HAVE to get into a steamroll group and you don't get invited back if you suck... for now), and as such is pretty pathetic for bragging about. PVP guild go PVE, hemorage their best players over time, or just DIE because there's nothing to do. Only guilds that tend to PVP after a while are the PVE guilds just dicking about having some fun in BGs after a raid or on a freeday. Hell, on my old guild they don't even do that because there is no worthwhile competition, so only the B-Grade PVE guilds do it.

Until there are proper ranking inplace for teams there is simply no reason for teams to stay together in the long-term, so everyone running around are just the scrubs too unskilled to be jaded yet, or are late-bloomers who missed the hey-day. So yeah... saying someone is the top guild on your server currently doesn't always mean anything much at all. :wink:

As far as gear... it matters for winning skirmishes. Since AB is mostly concentration of forces, mobilisation of people, and reacting appropriately to situations on the meta scale it plays less of a part. If for example you send 4 people to mine and there are 3 guards, whether you can take that node before reinforcements sweep you away depends very much on the gear of the people in question. If you're facing 3 rank 12-14 players you can generally forget it unless you got a LOT of dps gear (or are overloaded on CC) because the suckers just aren't gonna die fast enough. Now of course if you had sent 7 players instead, or the mine group was just a diversion that's not gonna change how that fight impacts on the game. If you needed mine at that moment to win, you just lost the game because of gear. It's rare that it happens though.


PS: I generalise many times in the above post.

Calantus just owned the stupid WoW BG-system, good for you man too bad it doesn't drop any phat lewtz.

I disagree in so many ways with this post, but for lack of time I'll just address this one.

How about... hmmm... because you like to PvP?  This is the reason most people play a given game - because they enjoy it, ne c'est pas?

I would like to see a persistent team system though.

He said HARDCORE.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

He's completely right, you know.

Hardcore people don't do what they do because they enjoy it. They do what they do because they secretly hate themselves, feel guilty for touching themselves at night when they think no one is watching, and think that pwning someone/something will make their pitiful self-loating a little less if only for a moment.

Again, I disagree;  if you're serious.

Ownzing people in WoW is pointless too.  They don't lose anything.  It's self-defeating.

Once you put in enough time investment for your purple razor of peen-shaving, you're done.

Done.

To clarify my above point for those who don't see where I'm coming from, the way I see it there are only 4 reasons to PVP:

1) For what it can get you. In UO this was phat lewt in the form of whatever the player was carrying. In DAOC this was realm points (and whatever they gave you, I never played it much). In WoW it is honor and the rewards that go with it. Problem with this of course is that once you get what you want the incentive is gone. WoW had it right initially with having to maintain rank to keep items (on the high end at least), but messed up by making the top ranks too hard to maintain, so gutted the system.

2) Bragging rights. For this to have any effect it has to mean something. The highest ranked teams on guildwars have worthwhile bragging rights for instance because their ranks are a factor of win/loss. In WoW, ranking is a factor of time. There's nothing to gloat about there. It's also such a large factor of time that it's not possible to maintain by anyone even remotely sane.

3) To hurt others. This is what griefers get off on. Incurring XP debt, destroying/taking their gear, disrupting their activities, etc are all ways in which this can happen. When you steamroll a PUG in WoW you don't really hurt them. They just get into another game afterwards and even get a mark for their trouble, a fast mark at that (it's actually faster to lose to a really good steamroll group 3 times than it is to win the average PUG match in AB, WSG you are almost definately better off losing, PUG matches can last hour+ if people wanna be dicks).

4) Fun. You just happen you enjoy PVP for its own sake and so you do it. Thing is, very few people can play hardcore purely for fun (also note that people can have fun competing or achieving, it's just a different type of fun than the often toted pure fun). The person who plays for fun will go a couple hours here and there. After that point any activity is going to start becoming more tedius and less fun the more you do it. People are also less likely to do this when there are other activities that could be earning them something.


Basically it's the achiever/competitor/griefer mentalities along with people who are just having fun doing what they are doing and don't need another reason to get enjoyment out of it. In WoWl 1) is limited in how long it can hold, 2) is empty, 3) is non-existant, and 4) doesn't make for hardcore PVP. So for hardcore PVP the only thing keeping people there is 1), and once that is gone there's nothing.

Ranked teams can't occur until they implement cross-server BG's.  There simply isn't enough to choose from other than that.

Gear and teamwork both matter. I've not played in a long time, but here's a shot from my very last time in the battlegrounds (http://nija.dyndns.org/grim_av.jpg). Dated 7/23/05, so that was even before the Hunter revamp. That was about a 1 hour AV vs the Alliance A team (all 40 of them on teamspeak at once) on Archimonde. They had the teamwork, but we had the gear I think. I'm not even sure who won. I ran out of ammo.

AV is a bad PvP metric, and one of the worst maps.  If you want to win, you charge fast and treat it like a PvE raid rather than fucking with all the extras.  AV games on my server last MAYBE 1 1/2 hours unless the Alliance completly turtles and the Horde has more PUGs than Horde-team PvPers. 

The winning strat in AV is: Charge flag to draw away NPCs, fear bomb to drive off PCs, challenge flag, kill PCs then NPCs. Leave 3-4 people to guard until you cap and move the raid to the next GY. 

They were probably hit by their very first zerg and didn't know how to respond to it -- especially if they were the A Team -- because they are usually accustomed to dictating the entire pace of the battle (the losing side tends to spend too much time defending).  Equipment is one of the variables, but the situation as you describe it sounds like they got totally blindsided.

So basically it boils down to exactly what I said.  Equipment doesn't matter as much as the whiners say.

Most things rarely matter as much as the whiners say.

I never really cared about uber loot until I recently saw this gnome with a crown of fire.  It looked darn cool.  made me a bit sad that I'd never have one.


Edit: "so" has a really different meaning then "saw"

http://www.thottbot.com/?i=37908

I just got one of those on Monday.  Hooray for minimum bid Rag loot (heh, it actually went to rot)! Slowly building my melee DPS gear... too bad I didn't feel like blowing 2 weeks worth of raid DKP on Nef's chain belt, I'd be one step closer to being a true horde side critadin.