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f13.net General Forums => MMOG Discussion => Topic started by: Llava on February 27, 2006, 12:11:28 PM



Title: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Llava on February 27, 2006, 12:11:28 PM
Cause if there is, I can't find it.  Doing a search for DC doesn't work all that well.  And DCU turns up nothing.

Anyways, was looking for a place to post this: http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=60670

Short version: Jim Lee's directing the artistic style of the DC MMG.  So at least it should be pretty.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Murgos on February 27, 2006, 12:38:11 PM
I thought a DC MMO had already been announced as in development?

Anyway, good luck to them but I won't hold my breath waiting for its release.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: HaemishM on February 27, 2006, 01:50:02 PM
It's in development by SOE, it appears to be Smedley's other baby (besides the Station Exchange-funded one) and it's probably at least a year away from beta. What the fuck do we need a thread for?


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Morfiend on February 27, 2006, 01:54:47 PM
It's in development by SOE, it appears to be Smedley's other baby (besides the Station Exchange-funded one) and it's probably at least a year away from beta. What the fuck do we need a thread for?

"Postcount++"?


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: cevik on February 27, 2006, 02:14:26 PM
"Postcount++"?

When did this make a resurgence?  I thought I stopped doing that back at P2P, "pre-OMGZ RAPE" ban..


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: HaemishM on February 27, 2006, 02:59:23 PM
I hate postcounts.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Evil Elvis on February 27, 2006, 03:09:56 PM
A better subject would be, "Just how bad is DDO going to bomb?"


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Venkman on February 27, 2006, 05:43:04 PM
So is the general pile-on because nobody cares about DC MMO or because nobody cares about it yet (since it's so far from definition and proof of having one)?


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Trippy on February 27, 2006, 06:00:42 PM
There was a brief spark of interest in the game when schild reported back from AGC 05 that the game was going to be twitch (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=5008.msg128803#msg128803) (gee that sounds like another MMO...) but then we all remembered that it was SOE that was making the game (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=5273.msg138472#msg138472) and promptly stopped talking about it.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Lantyssa on February 28, 2006, 08:33:54 AM
I hate postcounts.
An eerily prescient statement.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: HaemishM on February 28, 2006, 08:36:43 AM
I didn't do it. And cevik knew what I meant by that post, or at least he should have.

Actually, I'm greatly interested in the DCU MMOG. There's just nothing to talk about. The only thing resembling a design concept we have is that it'll be twitch. Will it be SWG twitch? If so, it's going to suck. Will it be DDO twitch? If so, it might be good, but only if they execute it better than DDO and SWG combined. Will DCU bigshots be amusement park diversions a la SWG or will you be able to play as or with Batman? Will the license matter more than fun gameplay?

We don't know any of these things and no one is talking.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Lantyssa on February 28, 2006, 08:47:40 AM
I did not think you did.  I just found the timing amusing.

Once we know more I will pay attention to how things are developing.  I have never been too big a fan of their universe, but something like this could draw me in.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: cevik on February 28, 2006, 09:03:04 AM
I didn't do it. And cevik knew what I meant by that post, or at least he should have.

I hate the good old days.. :)


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Velorath on February 28, 2006, 06:18:57 PM
So is the general pile-on because nobody cares about DC MMO or because nobody cares about it yet (since it's so far from definition and proof of having one)?

Jim Lee has said more about the game in this interview than we've heard about it since it was announced, and he barely said shit other than it being a DC MMO that he's doing art stuff for.

SOE announced that they got the licence at the same time they announced taking over The Matrix Online (DC is owned by Warner Brothers) so it's reasonable to assume that they've only recently started any sort of development.   I'd say their speculated 2007 release might be a tad optimistic in fact.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: schild on March 01, 2006, 01:58:16 AM
Haem, not smedley's baby. It's in the wrong state. Now, you can speculate that since it's being made in the house SW:G built, that well. Yea. That.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Nyght on March 01, 2006, 05:58:26 AM
Well apparently, it makes for  the best analogies ever  (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/03/01)

Can you feel the love tonight?

Edited link to follow the comic to the achives


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: AcidCat on March 01, 2006, 08:55:44 AM
Hmmm, I'm pretty sure Sigil is still working on Marvel's MMO.

So we'll have three superhero MMOs on the market at some point?

Should be interesting how this plays out. I think both DC and Marvel will find there's not much demand for *another* superhero MMO, licensed characters or not.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Soln on March 01, 2006, 09:59:26 AM
Edit: Nyght beat me to it. 

Isn't it interesting though how much Smed's about (http://www.fohguild.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18381) town?  Tripping here and there amidst the silly gamers... he only needs a blog now for self-promotion. Oh wait.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: schild on March 01, 2006, 12:21:16 PM
I don't understand why he would even post at FoH. That's like sticking your dick in a cuisinart...for fun.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Evil Elvis on March 01, 2006, 01:15:48 PM
Because alot of angsty board warriors who can't distinguish between reality and a video game are just looking for some validation.  All it takes is for a dev to give them some attention, tell them how pretty they are, and they're singing a completely different tune.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Soln on March 01, 2006, 01:22:57 PM
I can't help thinking he's either looking for street cred (as it were) or just self-promotion or just damage control in anticipation of a new release (KoS) after all the SWG karma.  None of those ideas make any sense at all though.  It makes me... uncomfortable seeing him pop-up all over the place all of a sudden.  Particularly it what seemed to be non-professional mole boards.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: HaemishM on March 01, 2006, 01:43:17 PM
The FOH board has always been a dev fellatio board. Maybe he just wanted to work on a little bit of sumin' sumin' that Brad seems to get over there.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Trippy on March 01, 2006, 09:25:58 PM
Is it a bad thing to be working on a supposed AAA title without a lead designer?

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2006/03/01#1141251840

Here's the Gamasutra job link but I don't have an account so I can't view it:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/jobs_display.php?job_id=9335

Edit: fixed typo


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Murgos on March 02, 2006, 06:26:31 AM
Heh, Smed sent them a hundred boxes of donuts.  Funny.

No press is bad press.  Penny-Arcade has something like 500,000 readers and they all know about SOE making a DC licensed game now, pretty much the best outcome smed could have hoped for.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Soln on March 02, 2006, 08:25:40 AM
fucking priceless

Quote
you’ll end up in some filthy ally shooting rats with your heat vision.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Ironwood on March 02, 2006, 08:39:53 AM
That's a lot of fucking donuts.

Priceless.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Llava on March 06, 2006, 01:31:18 AM
I wanted to point out that Jim Lee is on the DCU MMG because there has been so much discussion here about drab art in MMGs.  I recall a great deal of bitching about DDO and its boring browns.

Jim Lee, however, is generally considered to be, let's say, "decent" at what he does.  I thought it was a smart move on SOE's part, and worth mentioning.  So fucking shoot me, I made a thread. 
:mob:


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Trippy on March 06, 2006, 02:28:21 AM
It was a good move on SOE's part given the beating EQ2 has taken over its bland and uninspired Art Direction. Unfortunately for Jim Lee he's joining a sinking ship with people either bailing out or being unwilling to join up on the project (I'm not sure which).


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: MisterNoisy on March 06, 2006, 09:45:11 AM
You know...  As far as art goes, they could do a lot worse than simply going with cel-shading and emulating the look and feel of JLU.  Lower poly counts and a nice consistent world.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: HaemishM on March 06, 2006, 09:50:34 AM
It was a good move on SOE's part given the beating EQ2 has taken over its bland and uninspired Art Direction. Unfortunately for Jim Lee he's joining a sinking ship with people either bailing out or being unwilling to join up on the project (I'm not sure which).


And unfortunately for the DC MMOG, Jim Lee's art has felt to me in the last few years like the same kind of bland, uninspired, overly 'realistic' looking stuff as in EQ2's character models. Even his stuff on the Batman Hush story felt cold to me. He's good technically, but just doesn't inspire me with a lot of feeling.

Now Liefeld inspires great hatred in me, and Miller great love. Both have their own distinctive styles. Jim Lee just looks like a less puffy John Byrne.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Llava on March 06, 2006, 10:53:34 PM
(http://www.adarkknightofgotham.supanet.com/BatmanHitsJokerCloseUp_JimLee.jpg)

"Realistic" seems like an odd choice of words.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Nebu on March 06, 2006, 10:59:30 PM
Am I the only one here that collects and appreciates the Golden Age?


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Velorath on March 06, 2006, 11:20:03 PM
Am I the only one here that collects and appreciates the Golden Age?

I don't collect Golden Age for story and price reasons, but I know we've discussed art taste in comics before when you were playing EQ2 and I know and agree with what you're probably thinking.

On a related note, Jim Lee seems like an odd choice for this job.  Jim Lee's art  makes me think more of Image than DC.  If you're going to go with one artist, I'd rather have seen Perez.  Personally though I wouldn't mind seeing each zone or city done by a different artist.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Sky on March 07, 2006, 07:56:59 AM
KIRBY


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Velorath on March 07, 2006, 04:22:13 PM
I think Kirby is better off remaining dead rather than coming back to life to work on an MMO for SOE.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Venkman on March 07, 2006, 05:14:56 PM
Too... many... jokes... gah!


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Velorath on March 08, 2006, 09:09:46 PM
Hmmm, I'm pretty sure Sigil is still working on Marvel's MMO.

So we'll have three superhero MMOs on the market at some point?

Should be interesting how this plays out. I think both DC and Marvel will find there's not much demand for *another* superhero MMO, licensed characters or not.

I've seen people suggest this before, but really CoH only scratches the surface of what you can do with a superhero MMO.  It focuses purely on combat.  Obviously given the companies involved I'm not going to have high hopes for either the DC or Marvel game, but it has nothing to do with having CoH as competition.  Cryptic left out alter egos, which has possibilities for all sorts of mini games.  There's no crafting in CoH (Reed Richards, Iron Man, Forge, and Henry Pym would be fucked).  Characters don't have to worry about their reputations, and vigilantes don't have to worry about the cops.  There's a lot of shit CoH just doesn't do and I don't think it would be too hard to lure it's players away to another game since there isn't much investment in the characters.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Llava on March 10, 2006, 03:01:06 PM
I disagree with some of your statements and agree with others.

For one, if we're going down the mythological path of THE FUTUUUUUUUUURE for when these MMGs will be released, CoH may have the invention system live by then.

The alter ego thing I've considered and I'm not sure how I feel about it.  There are some heroes with alter egos and some without.  I can really imagine a system like that being made mandatory, and that's just not loyal to the genre.  I'd rather not have something I only kinda want then be forced to do something I really dislike.  That said, if done well,  it would be nice.

The CoH/V world is pretty black and white, yeah.  There's not really room for criminal heroes (like... I dunno, old school X-Force), or political villains (Lex Luthor).  This goes for pretty much any game (that I've played anyways) with player factions.  It's a weakness of the genre, really, not of the game.  The DC or Marvel games may overcome that, but I doubt it.  Oddly, freedom isn't something a lot of MMGs really offer.

I assume by "investment in the characters" you're referring to signature characters like Statesman or Lord Recluse, and not the player's own characters.  I have more investment in my characters than I have in any other MMG, but I can agree that Manticore isn't remotely as iconic as Batman.

But will CoH/V get killed by DCU or Marvel Online?  Well, not KILLED, just like other fantasy MMGs weren't KILLED by WoW.  But it's gonna hurt.  New subs will probably stop coming in, and it'll be a retention game from then on unless those two games are seriously, seriously fucked up or CoH/V adds so damn much between now and then that it's really not even a choice.

I don't see the latter happening, and even if the former does happen... well, SWG did pretty well for a while there.  "It's the license, stupid."


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Velorath on March 10, 2006, 04:47:05 PM
I disagree with some of your statements and agree with others.

For one, if we're going down the mythological path of THE FUTUUUUUUUUURE for when these MMGs will be released, CoH may have the invention system live by then.

The alter ego thing I've considered and I'm not sure how I feel about it.  There are some heroes with alter egos and some without.  I can really imagine a system like that being made mandatory, and that's just not loyal to the genre.  I'd rather not have something I only kinda want then be forced to do something I really dislike.  That said, if done well,  it would be nice.

The CoH/V world is pretty black and white, yeah.  There's not really room for criminal heroes (like... I dunno, old school X-Force), or political villains (Lex Luthor).  This goes for pretty much any game (that I've played anyways) with player factions.  It's a weakness of the genre, really, not of the game.  The DC or Marvel games may overcome that, but I doubt it.  Oddly, freedom isn't something a lot of MMGs really offer.

I assume by "investment in the characters" you're referring to signature characters like Statesman or Lord Recluse, and not the player's own characters.  I have more investment in my characters than I have in any other MMG, but I can agree that Manticore isn't remotely as iconic as Batman.

The vast majority of characters have alter egos, even if some of their identities aren't particularly secret  At the very least, they have things they do outside of fighting crime.  Like any other aspect of any game, whether or not it works depends on implementation, and again I'm not expecting much out of SOE or Sigil.

As far as freedom being a limitation of the genre goes, I'm not really looking for freedom.  It's more like I'm looking for mini-games that relate to the kind of character I'm playing.  If I play a vigilante, have some mini-games involving getting away from cops.  If my hero suffers from bad press, have some mini-games that involve a little PR.  If there's one good thing I can say about FFXI, it's that it had missions with cut-scenes that advanced a story.  Throw some of that in too.

And no, by investment, I mean investment in your character.  It sounds like you're in the minority as far as that goes.  In CoH, the only time you invest in your character for the most part is leveling.  In other games, people have invested time into leveling their characters, crafting, getting loot, and in games like DAOC or WoW, PVP ranks or levels.  Players in CoH aren't going to feel like they're leaving a lot of work behind if the leave CoH, nor is there any sort of sense that if you left for several months that you'd have a lot to catch up on when you come back.  Basically, after leveling there's no carrot that keeps people playing so there's not much stopping people from unsubbing CoH to at least try out the DC game.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Trippy on March 10, 2006, 07:48:04 PM
And no, by investment, I mean investment in your character.  It sounds like you're in the minority as far as that goes.  In CoH, the only time you invest in your character for the most part is leveling.  In other games, people have invested time into leveling their characters, crafting, getting loot, and in games like DAOC or WoW, PVP ranks or levels.  Players in CoH aren't going to feel like they're leaving a lot of work behind if the leave CoH, nor is there any sort of sense that if you left for several months that you'd have a lot to catch up on when you come back.  Basically, after leveling there's no carrot that keeps people playing so there's not much stopping people from unsubbing CoH to at least try out the DC game.
Yup, the lack of a loot treadmill and an end game beyond killing Hamidon over and over again for massively nerfed enchancements are what keep CoH from being as "sticky" as some other MMORPGs.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Llava on March 11, 2006, 12:00:01 AM
... Huh.  That's one thing most CoH players consider its major advantage- no loot farming.  I agree with them.

I disagree with your assessment of investment.  To put it simply, that's not good gameplay.  Basically you're convincing your players that they're obligated to stay with their characters, because otherwise they will have wasted SO MUCH time they'd feel ridiculous.  That's how it was with DAoC- which is why I sold my account.  I didn't waste the time, I made money with it.

I'm invested in my CoH/V characters because they are far, far more individual than any other game has allowed.  In all my time playing CoH/V, I've only run into another character who looks a lot like the one I'm playing a single time.  And that was only "pretty close".  I get to write a backstory and build a whole concept, something I'm not really allowed to do in other MMGs.  I'm invested because I'm unique, not because it took me so long to get to where I am.

Hell.  That's why I quit WoW.  It took me a while to get to where I was, and I realized I didn't much care where I was going and didn't feel like putting more into the game, so I quit and never looked back.  That, coupled with the lack of individuality or uniqueness  among characters, and that was all it took for them to lose me.  Wasn't even a bad game- I just wasn't invested, despite being an Artisan Engineer, just over level 40 and nearly having enough cash to buy a horse.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Velorath on March 11, 2006, 09:19:20 AM
I didn't say anything about it being good gameplay.  Just that there isn't much that would keep people from unsubscribing to try out the DC or Marvel games.  I like CoH but it's a very easy game for people to walk away from, so when people wonder if there's room for 3 superhero MMO's I'd have to say yes, if they offer something CoH doesn't.  And there's a lot of things at the moment CoH doesn't offer.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Llava on March 11, 2006, 11:46:37 AM
I can agree with that.

And I'd even say that, unless these games are TOTALLY FUCKED  UP, CoH is in trouble simply because of the strength of the licensed property behind DCU and Marvel Online.  Like I said, it's almost a complete negation of new players for them and it'll be a retention game from then on- a game that you don't necessarily have to lose, but you can't ever win.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Driakos on March 12, 2006, 03:26:30 PM
Now Liefeld inspires great hatred in me, and Miller great love. Both have their own distinctive styles. Jim Lee just looks like a less puffy John Byrne.

There are not sufficient words to describe Liefeld's shittyness.  As an artist, or a writer.


Title: Re: Is there no topic for the DCU MMG?
Post by: Jobu on March 13, 2006, 01:29:20 PM
Now Liefeld inspires great hatred in me, and Miller great love. Both have their own distinctive styles. Jim Lee just looks like a less puffy John Byrne.

There are not sufficient words to describe Liefeld's shittyness.  As an artist, or a writer.

Shitty, shittering, shithead McShitster comes to mind.