f13.net

I've owned Jeeps for a long time, first one was a 1980 CJ-5, then a 1985 CJ-7, and currently a 2000 Wrangler.  I love my current Jeep, but I am going back to school to get my Physicians Assistant degree and the nearest school is about 75+ miles away.  So, I have been thinking long and hard about what economy car to buy.  It needs to get good gas milage, not be a death trap (I've seen too many motor vehicle crashes), and be nice enough that I can take 4 people on a decent trip.

The Volkswagen Jetta Turbo Diesel is looking pretty nice, Toyota Corolla seems decent and so does the Honda Civic, or maybe the Ford Focus.  I'm partial to VW and Ford, having driven my parents VW Jetta growing up, and having had a Ford Escort for my ex-wife, those are 4/5 door cars that I liked to drive (as long as it has a manual transmission).

Hybrids won't work for the type of driving I will be doing, usually 75+ miles highway, and then some more around Indianapolis, then back home 75+ miles.  Plus the hybrids look like ass.

Price wise, was hoping to keep it under $15,000...was mainly looking for a good used car...about 2 years old, (but the new Ford Focus is pretty competitive in the new car price!).

I hate cars.com search, they can not get the search engine to truly show only cars with manual transmissions!!  I don't want a god damn automatic!  I'm one of the last fucking USA'ers that want to shift when I want too!  Fuck you too Chevy for dropping the manual transmission from your heavy duty line and making it with IFS too!  Errr...side rant about car shopping on the web  :-D

I absolutely :heart: my Scion Xa.  Gets ~34mpg in mixed driving, suprising amount of room in the back seat (or so I'm told) and mine was a bit over 15 grand (only options were side curtain airbags and security system).  I did get a manual, shifts much better than my Chevy did ut not as good as the Acura.

But then I recomend that car to everyone.

The Honda Civic Hybrid looks like...a Honda Civic. It is out of your price range though (as are all the other hybrids).

My wife drives a Jetta and while it's a great car I wouldn't recommend it for taking 4 people on drives longer than about 10 minutes. Unless the 2 in the back are children. At 6'2" I just barely can manage to squeeze my knees to the sides of the front seat if I'm sitting in the back of her car and it is far from comfortable.


Edit: Oh and avoid Dodge's like the plague. I bought an Intrepid 2 years ago because it was the largest and cheapest (off lease w/ under 30,000 for under $10,000) car I could find without going SUV again. I've had nothing but problems with it. Luckily it's almost paid off though so I can now comfortably drive it into the ground and start over. It's sad that I'm talking about driving a car with barely 40,000 miles on it into the ground but oh well....

I've heard/read nice things about the Scion cars....

Well, except the xB...that thing is an abomination.

Yamaha YZF-R6. 40-50mpg, room for 2, get-home-quickest.

(http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/products/mcy/500/06YZFR6_blue_1sized.jpg)

Ugh, what's with the stumpy muffler?

I guess you'd have to get a YZF-R6S if you don't want to look gay, but that's good 'cause it's cheaper:

(http://www.yamaha-motor.com/assets/products/mcy/500/06YZFR6s_black_1sized.jpg)

Um.

Where are the other two wheels ?

I've been nothing but happy with and had no problems with my Focus hatch, though I don't care all that much for the restyled nose on the newer ones.  I typically get around 30 mpg mostly in-town, and about 35-ish on the Interstate.  The only real prob with the Focus is resale value, which absolutely sucks the pipe, so I highly recommend doing what I did and look for a lightly used one.

The xA is pretty slick looking and drives pretty well (though you'll have to get used to not passing much) imo, but I have a thing for small runabout-type cars.  Also, it's a Toyota, so resale should be good, and reliability/quality will be superb for the price.

Between the two, the Focus will offer more room throughout, particularly in the backseat/trunk, while the xA offers a nicer interior and better seats.  Both cars are available with slick-shifting manuals.

I'd also look for a used Mazda 3, which is the Euro 2nd-gen Focus in Mazda drag.

I've heard nothing but good things from the Focus, and a friend of mine drives one.  I haven't driven one, although I did own a high milage Escort GT in college, from which a lot was borrowed for the Focus.  If that's the kind of car you're looking at, I'd also suggest the Civic.  Better milage and reliability, although it might come with a slight premium.  If you're an options whore you'd probably want to lean Focus.

I :heart: my 2005 Civic LX.

You can't go wrong with a Toyota. You really can't. I also recommend Hondas to people, although I won't drive one because I'm apparently too tall for their designers. I would say get a VW if and only if you are a regular maintenance person. If you tend to let your cars go until the last minute, Volkswagons are NOT for you. I'm biased against Fords because I haven't worked on one yet that didn't take some blood from me. Designed with no thought of actual repair down the road. Assholes. You have to picky with Dodge. The intrepid is a piece of shit. No argument. The Neon will run forever. Have to admit I'm partial to Chev, because when things go wrong with em, repairs are almost always cheap and easy.  Be advised all the above things are from a mechanics point of view, not an aesthetics whore.  If you find a car that you love, buy it.

I'm glad you like your Jeep. If you have the inline six, I suggest you look over the exhaust studs. Every single jeep I've ever seen has had a broken exhaust stud (or two) no matter what kind of care or driving was done. Extraction can be quite expensive so if you keep on it, you can catch it before its a problem.

I never much liked the way the Ford Focus drove. Just something about its "feel" on the road I didn't like. But that's something you can't reliably pass on to someone else. I also felt the same way about the Escort 4-door I test-drove in 1998; it felt sluggish. And that was after having driven a Ford Escort 2-door for 4 years before that. That Escort I got in 1994 was one of the best, most trouble-free cars I ever had, with great mileage. But again, that was over a decade ago. Fuck.

I feel old.

That's funny... my brother in law works in the service department of a Ford dealership and he's never heard anything but bad about them.

I've owned a VW GTI for the past year and would recommend it highly. Interestingly, it replaced a Jeep as well (only my Jeep was a Cherokee). On the path to this car, I test drove the Civic, Sentra, Focus svt, Mazda, and a mustang and nothing even came close.  The GTI is tight, corners well, and the 1.8 turbo has a nice kick at 2500 rpm. As funny as this sounds, the hatchback was also appealing as I often need to transport speaker cabinets for when I do "filler" gigs. 

Give it a test drive.  Like many VW's people seem to either love or hate them immediately.  For me, it was love.

I agree, however the last clutch I had (Ram 1500 pickup) really beat up my knee with two hours of stomping each day.  I miss the manual but my knee thanks me.  I understand the clutches are not so tough on smaller vehicles, but I drive what I got.

Fords suck, based on my experience with a Taurus.  I drove a Foc-ass while touring Scotland and I actually had to put the damn thing in first gear to climb at least one hill.  Take that as you will.  As for feel, I was shifting with my left hand which was about as weird as flogging the bishop with the "other" hand, so I can't comment.

I drove a loaner Escort, though, and it felt fine.  Same engine as the Taurus but less bloated.  Only had it for 2-3 days, though.

My experience is mostly with Dodge, however I drive the trucks.  The trucks are vastly superior to Ford or Chevy, IMO, but I can't comment on cars.  Last Dodge car I drove was a 1978 Aspen, and that car was indestructible.  The non-station-wagon version is the Volare, and as incredible as it might sound I recommend that for reliability combined with some do-it-yourself.

Get a bike.

I'd save 5K more and get a new Toyota FJ. You'll never go back to Jeep.

I like my Mustangs, but they don't apply to your situation.

My buddy had a GTI. I strongly disliked the car. It wasn't a bad car, per se, but it was cramped, I didn't particularly like the suspension...and I hated the look.

Keep in mind that I would never willingly drive ANY FWD vehicle, or an automatic for that matter (this doesn't include the high end hybrid transmissions....though I'd rather just have a plain stick shift).

That's the love-hate thing I was referring to.  I've always had a thing for rally cars since I spent a week in high performance driving school.  The GTI was the closest I could find in a stock vehicle under $25k.  In my opinin the suspension only shines when pushed.  For standard driving it's nothing to write home about.

On a tangent: I'm still baffled why anyone would buy a domestic car that wasn't build in or before the muscle car era (with the possible exception of trucks/SUV's). 

I need to find one of those schools.

I love my '89 Civic SI...  I'm pretty sure the unibody is going to rust into pieces before the engine quits.  Which is a shame, but I'm pretty sure I'd be beat up if I went to one of those car restoration hobby clubs to learn how to restore my Civic.

Alkiera

I hope that this helps. (http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/112_0407_race_links/)

I had a 91 civic Si.  Was a fun car very reminiscent of the CRX with room.

The GTI did well enough when pushed through turns, but under normal driving conditions, as a passenger, the car made me nauseous, especially the back seat.


And why would anyone buy a domestic you ask? Well, I don't have a true answer...but for what I get with a Mustang, especially the new ones, I don't really see anything else that really compares within the price range.

I think it's a matter of personal taste.  I have a friend that bought a Bullit edition Mustang (2001 GT special edition, I believe) and allowed me to drive it for almost a week.  I found that while the car was fast (top end), it lacked quickness and was rather soft through turns (I had problems with a lot of understeer when I pushed hard).  I have to admit that I LOVED the look of the car and the creature comforts were great for casual driving.  At the price, I think this mustang would be one of the few domestics I would seriously consider over a foreign competitor.  Not so much for its performance, but for overall appeal.  Actually, I had a lot more fun driving the focus svt, but it was a bit cramped and the interior just felt "cheap" and lacking in ergonomic touches.

Another car I almost forgot about is the Nissan Sentra SR-V.  This was probably the best car for the buck in this price class, but it's a pretty stripped bare car at the price point.  Of course, I haven't driven it in a couple years so I'm not sure how much they have changed.  It had decent hp, solid braking distance, and handled pretty well given the narrow stance. 

Note: FWIW I've only driven these cars with a manual transmission.  The only cars I drive with automatics anymore are rentals.  Even my Cherokee had a manual... I think that's why I got it so cheap.   

According to the Haynes manual I have, the SI models had most of the same engine/suspension mods that the CRX had, just a different body.

And yeah, it's fun to drive.  And due to the small engine, pretty fuel efficient too.

When I can afford a new car, I'm looking at a Subaru WRX.  Not the most fuel-efficient car, for sure, but fun to drive, and not horrid price-wise for a new car.  And I agree on the manual transmission thing... after having driven my civic for so long, I always feel weird getting into a car with automatic tranny.

Alkiera

The SVT may be dead, but the SVT suspension is available as a bolt-in retrofit from Ford Racing for $250.  The stock Focus suspension allows a fair amount of body roll, but hangs on pretty well and is fairly neutral for a FWD car.  The SVT setup tightens things up considerably.

I like the new Mustang as well (it's a lot of car for the money and drives damned nicely), but the interior suffers from the same domestic car problem of feeling cheap compared to those of European or Japanese equivalents -- hard plastics everywhere and so-so fit/finish - even with the interior upgrade packages.  Great car to drive and solidly built otherwise -- it's very much on my 'short list' for my next car purchase.

All I can offer in advice is to not buy a 1996 Audi A4 with FWD, unless you like spending 2600 dollars in the four months you have owned the car.

I'm not bitter, not really, I love my car.

Me too - my love for my 2004 TDI Passat is possibly unnatural.  You definitely want something like the TDI for highway driving - my lifetime average mpg is 40.4, and lifetime average speed is 58.4 mph.  There's something deeply satisfying with blowing down the highway at 80 with the AC going fullblast and the sunroof open while still averaging 40mph.  Even though it's "only" 135 horse it's also punchy enough to pass the asshole SUV and pickup drivers.  Definitely one of my better purchases.

Well at least until the 2007 Solstice GXP hits the street. (http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/news/pontiac-to-unveil-2007-solstice-gxp-at-los-angeles-show-145965.php)  With curves and a ragtop who cares about gas mileage.  Mrs. Poco has been warned that my latest mid-life crisis has already been approved by the bank.

That is one nice looking car... I'm going to have to find an excuse to seek one out.

Heh, Pontiac.

I know.  If he makes me like a domestic car, I'm going to have to change my tune.

Or as we knew it in high school, Poor Ole' Numbnut Thought It Was A Cadillac.

They laughed at Edsel too...  Which come to think it of it still has more character than most of the shoeboxes sold today.  :P

(http://www.ipmslivonia.org/ipms/Gallery/Edsel/MH-Ed-03a.jpg)

That's not what the N stood for, but good taste shall prevail.

Just so... ;-)

Good luck.  Dealer stock will be short due to limited supply and it's not like there's anything else worth a damn on Pontiac lots, so I expect hefty markups to take advantage of the same crowd that bought Minis to replace their PT Cruisers which replaced their New Beetles.  The Saturn Sky (http://www.saturn.com/saturn/vehicles/futurevehicles/skylo/index.jsp) is coming soon and will share the same chassis and looks nicer imo.  I'm curious as to whether Saturn dealers will be forced to sell at sticker, but doubt it.

It's a shame the Sky doesn't have the looks to match the engine. When I saw prototypes of it I was almost wanting to trade in my car for it. Particularly now that I live in Arizona. But I'm not giving up my speed, acceleration and control.

You're kidding right?  The Ecotec 4-cyl is hardly a model of refinement or serious power delivery and the Sky looks like the Solstice with the assy Pontiac 'corporate' grille replaced by the nose from the Opel VX220.

I was disappointed the GXP won't have the LS2 engine - that's the only reason I held out as long as I did since existing models have such an anemic power plant.  I'd pay a premium for the GXP though as long as prices aren't too crazy, and worse case the 2006 models will be deeply discounted.  Every dealer I've seen has at least five on the lot.

I detest the Vauxhall nose on the Sky.  Makes me think of the abomination of the 2007 GTO.  And the side panels remind me of the old Mustang IIs - gee I hope it has a cute vanity mirror too.  :evil:  It also comes with the same pathetic engine as the existing Solstice.  Ugh.

Curves.  I'm male. It's all about the curves.  And good Belgian trippel ale while laughing at Benny Hill re-runs.  But mainly curves.


 :mob:

Personally, if I were looking for a roadster, I'd skip both and buy the new Miata (http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/static/modelsMainMX5.html), but that's just me.  :P  Better power/weight and gobs more refinement for the same price.  That said, if Mazda brought this (http://www.autoglobal.com/fotos/6000/6430.jpg) to market, I'd buy one without hesitation.

I'd rather get a Lotus Elise than one of those MX5, VX220 or Solstice things. Because I'd rather a sportscar be fun to drive than a pretty thing to show off my haircut in.

As for the original question... there is no new car for sale in America worth shelling out 15 large for. A used Toyota Celica is a good option. It's as efficient as a Focus, and is more reliable according to consumer reports (and unlike the US Focus, doesn't have the washy steering and front suspension). A 3-4 year old four banger can be had in your price range if you shop around and push the dealers.

Use this to check MPG figures. (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byMPG.htm)

Yea but a Celica is for wee tiny people. It was one of the cars I test drove before I chose the RSX Type-S. The Lexus IS-300 ain't bad either.

Only wee tiny people get good fuel economy. Everybody else should get a Jag. Or two. (http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Politics/Pix/pictures/2002/09/30/prescottspeech372.jpg)

That ecotec turbo charged is still a lot of engine for that car. Have you stood next to one? I crossed the street the other day, and they aren't fucking huge. (I really like it in blue.) It's definitely more than enough horse to successfully reduce it to its base parts on collision with a wall. Unless you're fucking huge, and you need the top down to accomodate your arm fat hanging outside the door.

You're making jokes people won't get.  My Chumbawamba/Fatty Two Jags joke was misunderstood.  We should save these jokes til mid-day AM GMT, when someone will get them.

Economy, trade deficit, etc.

The new Miata looks to be a fine car.

I'm pretty sure I would hurt someone for a Lotus.

Downside to the Miata is that there is no pretense of practicality.  That's what drove me to buy my Firebird (what's with the Pontiac h8? :(   ).  It's sporty enough to be fun, but big enough that I can haul stuff around in it.  So far I've crammed everything from a wheelbarrow to small furniture in the back.  There's also something to be said for the baby seat that I have in the back.  I dunno what, but something.   8-)

Come to think of it, I think I have something for discontinued cars.  Right after I bought my Escort, they discontinued it and moved to the Focus.  Right after I bought my Firebird, they discontinued those.  My wife just bought an Aztek (Pontiac  :heart: I guess), and they're done for.

TRUE car lovers have no such concerns when purchasing a fine automobile - they either find a friend with a truck, or buy a beat-up one to use themselves.  :evil:

As an aside, I do manage to fit lots of skiing/hockey gear into my Mustang without much difficulty.

I use to put shit into peoples' cars for a living....you can fit things into a smaller car, you just have to be creative (or not give a shit).

Yeah, well, soon as I make enough that I can buy two cars just for myself, without having to explain why I can't put it toward the house, wife, or kid, I'll be set :P

I am starting to look at Mustang again.  I haven't liked them for years because of the body style.  Just really uninterested in it, although I really like the new design.  Since they don't make 'em anymore I figure I'll drive my Firebird until the engine falls out of it, but the new Mustang is a cannidate for what I'll go after when it does. 

I think the Sky looks pretty good. Shame the engine isn't more exciting. While I'm into roadsters, if I was going to plop down the cash for a second car (why would you have it as your primary?) it certainly wouldn't be a Saturn.

Buying poorly made products is always a bad idea.  It erodes the process.  
  

A car, like most big purchases is a personal thing.  Everyone has their quirks about automobile purchases.  I, for example, will never buy new unless I somehow come into so much money that I don't care.  I also won't buy anything smaller than a Sedan unless the prior statement also comes true.  SUVs are right-out just because I don't like the rollover potential and if I need the capacity of a Minivan, I'll buy a damn minivan.  My ego isn't so fragile that I need to protect it with the delusion that I'm young and 'with it' by purchasing an "offroad" vehicle that'll never leave the highway.

I still find it funny so many people are celebrating Honda when I've found them to be overpriced shit.  When we were looking last year after the Roadmaster I'd inherited finally was costing more to repair than I felt was worth it(150k+ miles, tho) we took a look at Honda.  Their "certified used vehicles" and loan incentives were enough to get me in the door at least.  They were selling 2000 Accuras with V6s and 50k miles on them in the $18-$20k range.  When we wanted to test drive one, two of them wouldn't start (and it wasn't a battery problem, they tried jumping them.)  The one that DID start had a bunch of standing water in the trunk, and (I felt) handled poorly on the road so I didn't even bother with the highway.   

My sister suggested we check-out Saturn because she's always loved hers.  Went to the dealership they were selling previously-leased  2001 L300s (Saturn's Sedan, comporably to the Accura) with a V6 and 30k miles on them for $12,500.  They had all the trimmings, (Well, for a Saturn: 6-cd changer, sun/moon roof, cruise, fold-down rear seat, Alloy rims) except for interior leather.  Plus I got the remainder of the warranty 2-years or 50k miles. It should be obvious which one we bought and I haven't regretted it or had any problems. Considering I drive hard (65 is 'slow') and on torn-up Kentucky roads, that's impressivle to me.

I like my Pontiac. I like the way it drives, and it handles my shitty lack of maintenence well. Of course, it holds its value about as well as a middle-aged hooker.

I also did not buy my Civic new.  It's an 89, currently has 210,000+ miles on it.  Had about 187k or so when I got it.  I've taken it on long car trips, all over.  Worst problems I have had with it are keeping mufflers and body parts on it(rear bumper, really), it has lived its entire life in western NY.  Between purchase and nonaccident related repairs, I've maybe put $4000 into it in the 3-4 years I've owned it.

As a side note, the thing I hate worst about NY is the effect salt has on cars.  Closely followed by our stupid state and local governments, and the taxes.

Alkiera

I hate every car I've ever owned in the US.  We have a Mustang GT now and I hate it.  The only cars I've truly liked were our TVRs.  I miss them.  :cry:  We're getting rid of the Mustang shortly and I have no idea what we'll get next.  Whatever it is, I'm sure I'll hate it.

Maybe you are a motorcycle person...

In the interest of fairness, comparing a TVR to a Mustang is extremely unfair.

If I had a TVR and had to give it up, I would cry too.

I love Moto GP but Righ would love being in Moto GP.  He's the motorbike guy, not me.  He gave it all up when he married me, though, and started driving cars, instead.  Considering the sort of cars we had in Britain, I sometimes think he's looking for a car that'll give him a ride like a bike.  I have to admit, a road trip with him driving is very, very exciting.

There's always these (http://www.trexvehicles.com/).

Are those even street legal?

1.9g on the skidpad is fucking Obscene.

They're legally treated as motorcycles, so yeah.  Helmets may be required where you live though.

They are old fucks who cannot accomodate change.  That, and GM deserves h8 for fiddling while Toyota shows them why the GM of the 1960s was not unique.

But mainly because they are old fucks.  "What's this NEW THING?! <SLAM goes teh door>"

My love affair with Pontiac started and ended with my first car, a 1974 Grand Prix with a simple transmission matrix upgrade.  Car lasted me well into the early eighties until I wrapped it around a tree, not to mention the Ford pickup between me and afore mentioned tree.

The bitch is back.  Fuck the saki weenies and saurkraut suckers that know no better than to embrace the kneepads of the last decade.


Clearly you are a young pup who has no sense of what the early age of sports coupe was all about.  You think the early jags and spyders were computer-calibrated pseduo-leather excuses for a Lexii.  Come back to the roots.

McQueen didn't get his testicles wrapped in a bunch because the soft panels rattled when he downshifted.  They were *supposed* to bounce off the rivets into his latest baby's lap.

Weak.  The current generatiion is weak and whines too much. :evil:

  As for the original post;  I just bought my mother a 2005 Toyota Camry last spring, out the door brand new for $17200.  It's a 4-cylinder, but it's really peppy surprisingly enough, the car is a fantastic ride, the MPG and comfort levels are really unbelievable, especially for the price, not to mention the resale value is really strong.

  It keeps you in the $15k range, and picking up a returned lease, or a demo might get you right into that neighborhood without a problem.  I honestly expected to pay 20k+ for one when I started shopping, but after I actually sat down with a dealer and worked the numbers, it's ridiculously well priced.  They don't even "option" all the things that I've always thought were "options", A/C, power windows/locks, cruise, the whole funky seat with 8 bajillion settings, it's all standard.

  Yeah, I know, I sound like teh mole here, but I really was impressed with the car.

  And I drive an 01 Wrangler, so that might account for my high opinion of the ride handling, since I don't HAVE to wear a seatbelt just to keep me from being thrown from the vehicle.

The joys of Wrangler ownership (had one in college)
1. Downshifting on the highway just to hold speed when you encounter a 5 degree "hill"
2. Dealing with the #$@# soft top.
3. Having people constantly try to steal stuff from it
4. Rattles, squeaks, rust
5. Waking up at 6 am to a summer thunderstorm and running outside in underwear to try and pull the jeep around to shelter
6. Bouncing around like having relations on a trampoline
7. Sweaty sweaty back (I live in Austin)
8. The wind.
9. Having a bee or wasp land on you at a stop light.
10. Wintertime

There are definitely some plusses. Summer nights are great. And, in college girls really did like it.

Now, I drive a Honda Accord. I love it. Great car.

Thanks.  It's been 20 years since I've been called a young pup!

I've owned a 64 impala SS, GTO's from 66-70, and more than my share of 65-73 mustangs.  After about 1972, I lost faith in the quality and performance of domestic cars and opted instead for the better engineering tolerances of foreign.  As I said in a separate post above, it's really a taste thing.  I prefer the "tight" feel of foreign cars since my first datsun and porsche in the late 70's.

If Americans held the domestic automotive manufacturers to higher standards, we'd see better quality domestic cars.  That's the thrust of my statement.  There was a time when America was a leader in the automotive industry.  Now we make nice pickups and minivans.

See if you can find an old Toyota pickup (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2402060372341641699) for your cash.

American carsa re purposefully less reliable than foreign ones.  Normally, Americans (with money) like to swap out cars every few years, unlike foreign drivers who will hold onto cars longer.  When the money is being made on a lease, there's no incentive to have a car run for 200k miles.  It's not like Ford or GM make money on second or third sales.

They might make money if the car's value didn't drop 25-33% when you drove it off the new car lot.  Resale value on most American Domestics is low, while foreign cars manage to keep their value much longer.  Because, you know, they actually keep running for much longer(like my 17 year old Civic that still runs like a top).  They engineer a lack of longevity, because they want to be able to sell you another new car around the time you've paid off the last one.

Alkiera

I'd be interested in how much work that Honda has needed.

The primary problem with this is that its not a case of all Americans driving domestic cars, and all foreigners driving foreign cars. Some of the largest car manufacturing plants in America are run by foreign car manufacturers who sell the output domestically, and there's a roaring trade on automotive imports. Excluding trucks, which a sizable proportion of sales are made through corporate purchases, the top sellers in 2005 were Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Nissan Altima and Hyundai Sonata. If American car companies still have a philosophy of making shitty cars that fall to bits faster because its what the American buyer wants (which I doubt they have with today's competition and lemon laws) then it's not working out for them is it?

Sales growth for 2005 went like this: Toyota +9.7%, Nissan +9.2%, Hyundai +8.7%, Honda +4.9%, Subaru +4.6%, BMW +3.5%, Kia +2.1%.

No domestic manufacturers saw an increase in sales. Domestic sales overall declined 3% with the rate of decline increasing from start to end of 2005. Truck sales were in decline, SUV sales were in decline, and foreign car makers have successfully set their sights on those markets as well as minivans.

It's not like Ford or GM are making profits at all. The recent news from Ford wasn't so great for their employees, was it? Apparently FMC is the only part of the business that is sustainable, and they are financing more and more foreign vehicles themselves.

You're welcome. Pup. :-)  So after four decades of domestic ownership can we agree there *is* no golden age.  Which really was my point.  We buy cars for less endangerment than we give for the average media recoding device - see the idiot thread on the latest TV/boob-box replacement.  Why?  Becuase it feels well enough.  I spent a good part of my youth helping the old man recreate his Fiat envy.  I'm old enough now to understand it never had anything to do with machinery.  So up the pups that ignore stylish sheet metal because it doesn't feel like a Honda Accord.  My ex-wife drives a Honda - I skate on a sports car.  It may rattle, it definitely rolls.  And it is sexy to drive.

It's not supposed to make sense.  Sense is an alimony payment.  And alimony is for control freak bitches that never learned a lick of Hawthorne.

I've driven up Hawthorn Hill and through Hawthorn Bend, but Brands doesn't open up the full circuit very often.

Thanks for the ideas, I don't really have to get one until the fall of 2007, when I have to start classes in Indianapolis at Butler University or have clinicals up there at the hospitals (until my last year...when I can do clinicals in the local area).  I'll have a pretty good chunk of change saved up for the purchases next year.

Dodge is coming out with a new compact called the Caliber ( http://www.dodge.com/caliber/index.html?context=vehiclePage&type=vehicleLink ), looks pretty cool, but will be a first year run vehicle and I hate taking a risk on a first run, but I know the dodge dealer people really well in town.  We don't have a Volkswagen dealer in town, so if there is any problems and I need them to work on it, I will have a big towing fee and have to take it to 1 hour + away to have the dealerships work on it.  Of course most VW's don't need a ton of work on them.  The damn Toyota dealer made me mad, because he kept trying to convince me that a hybrid would be great, even though I kept pointing out to him I would be on the interstate most of the mileage.  Hybrids get the great gas milage from the stop and go, not from running 90 miles an hour down the interstate.

As far as my Jeep, I'm keeping her  :-D  I could allways go nuts and try and make her drive better.  Swap in a diesel from a VW or Liberty, get a hard top, put 30' tires on it, but that would suck.  We have a wonderful off highway park down here in Dugger IN, called he Redbird OHRA, where you can run your truck, motorcycle, or quad on some great trails, from mild to wild.  The other place is called the Badlands in Attica IN which has some pretty insane trails.  So building up my Jeep in about 4 years will be pretty fun, but expensive.  As far as an FJ being better, to each his own.  Besides, I don't see many of those out on the trails with me, mostly it is the pre 1985 Toyota trucks that are out, hell, it is mostly the older trucks and suv's that have straight axles or newer wranglers that are out getting dirty.  I really miss the old Bronco, Blazer, and Ramchargers.  I'm only 5'6" so the jeep fits me well, but for taller people you needed the extra space from the bigger 4x4's.  I keep finding older trucks forsale!  I have found a 93 Dodge 250 4x4 with decent milage and price, 69 jeep M715, 74 Ford Bronco, and a 2000 Ford Diesel 4x4 F250...of course I don't need any of those right now.

The drop in value is entirely because you can no longer legally call the car "new".  This isn't an American car thing - foreign cars do it too.  Again, this is the obscession with all things new.

As for making money if this weren't the case, you're missing the point.  Even if they did hold their value on the lot, car manufacturers don't make money on second+ sales.  They haven't, can't, and never will make money on anything but first sale, because the profit for them is in making product.  Car lots make money, but that's another matter.

That Caliber made me think of a Focus at first glance.

I can't say I agree with your choice. Then again, I've been a Honda person for a few years now and my 2002 Civic is a rock (we've got an Acura TSX too, fantastic car).  Great gas mileage and its wimpiness doesn't bother me much.

And yah, most Toyota dealers I've been to are dicks.  I don't know what it is about those jackasses, but they don't understand the word "no".

You just have to pronounce no as "Fuck off".

Assuming you can get one, go to a dealer with an infant (and no one else).  Nobody will bother you; they know that you can't take a test drive, therefore will probably not purchase.  Worked for my wife anyway.

Incentives for hybrid sales. Old fashioned greed baby.

I did that as well on my first round of looking at cars. Second round i took the dog. Third round i took a car seat and insisted i be allowed to put it in the car for a test drive.

Still ended up with a moderately unpractical vehicle (http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=modelsMain&vehicleCode=RX8) but that's mostly weakness on my part.

Sounds like something I'd do.  I wanna drive one of those at some point... Mazda seems to be the only corp doing anything with that tech.  Everyone else has given up on it.  How's your milage?  They were claiming 24-25 around the time it was released.

Alkiera

Alternatively, you can look poor, or whatever is the reason I never can find a sales whore.