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Title: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 17, 2005, 12:41:48 PM Would I come back? Sorry, but your company has shown some serious ethical issues with the playerbase at every juncture. I honestly do not know if SOE can recover from some of the things they have done elsewhere (as far as my case- they are currently on the same level as EA, whom most of us are boycotting). Are you kidding? Same level as EA? They're doing Title: SOE hate Post by: Cheddar on December 17, 2005, 12:54:07 PM Are you kidding? Same level as EA? They're doing Its an ethical issue in my eyes- to me it is equivalent as to why I am not purchasing EA games. 'tis all. How much IS Sony paying you, Schild? I am curious as to why you keep defending these guys when they show time and again disdain for their players. I am all about a little biting and scratching, but drawing blood is generally where I draw the line. Title: SOE hate Post by: Shockeye on December 17, 2005, 01:01:11 PM How much IS Sony paying you, Schild? If Sony is paying schild, he hasn't told me about it and he certainly isn't sharing. Title: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 17, 2005, 03:58:47 PM Are you kidding? Same level as EA? They're doing Its an ethical issue in my eyes- to me it is equivalent as to why I am not purchasing EA games. 'tis all.You see, there's the problem. What fucking ethical rule have they broken? A lot of the SOE hate imho is completely unjustified. I could see hating the DnL folks or even the Mourning folks and I can definately see hating the Blizzard folks based solely on the fact they use bittorrent. But SOE? I just don't see it. Maybe I'm blind. But they haven't broken my moral barometer in any way. Sure, their playerbase kinda sucks in their games (like MOST mmorpgs and ALL other big MMORPGs), sure there's been some completely drama queen bullshit coming out of their office, but really they just haven't been anywhere near the devil people make them out to be. We've called Smedley a pigfucker and directed less than nice words at almost everyone on their dev teams, but we do that to everyone. Of all of them though, SOE is the only company who has been able to step up to the plate time and time again and at least have a swing. Cryptic? Nah, they'll never lessen that grind. Blizzard? Enjoy bittorrent, the money they're saving bought them new performance upgrades for their sports cars. The worst SOE has done is pull a fast one on their SW:G customers even though the base game sucked giant ass and made some less than good changes to the original EQ. Maybe I'm missing something. Quote How much IS Sony paying you, Schild? I am curious as to why you keep defending these guys when they show time and again disdain for their players. I am all about a little biting and scratching, but drawing blood is generally where I draw the line. What fucking disdain? Give me an example of disdain. A single one. I can see a little disregard here and there, but you can't tell me that drastic changes to SW:G weren't necessary. So try and find a real example. I can show you places where nearly every other MMORPG company has pulled some of the same shit time and time again. Yet you're still playing MMORPGs, so that's obviously not what set you off. Title: SOE hate Post by: Trippy on December 17, 2005, 04:14:56 PM You see, there's the problem. What fucking ethical rule have they broken? How about announcing the NGE the day after the expansion was released and only offering a refund for the expansion purchase after everybody started screaming bloody murder? Not even EA has attempted that sort of underhanded money grubbing tactic to my knowledge.Title: SOE hate Post by: Signe on December 17, 2005, 04:19:17 PM Before AGC this forum, including it's staff, were pretty much anti-SOE... After, schild comes home with a SOE smile and a chubby for Smegley. Everyone, mostly, gets on his case about it and Ras and Shockeye defend him, sometimes. That's all fine with me. I'll turn it around a bit... I'd like to know WHY the sudden SOE love? I know you can't be advocating that what SOE recently did to it's SWG customers was ETHICAL. They sold them an expansion and changed the game right after... no real announcement, no nuffin. They did away with the professions people were playing. They made crafters inconsequential to the game. They turned entertainers into... umm... entertainers. No one but combat professions can fight anymore... they've cut off their bollocks! How is that ok? How does that make Smedco worthy of our admiration? I should admire him because he's a dick? I only disparage SOE and the corporate Smed... I'm sure he's a lovely bloke IRL.
Personally, I don't much care. EQ2 is the only game, so far, that I've enjoyed and I'll probably play it again at some point. I like the blokes who post here and as people what they think... that's a good thing. The EQ2 guys seem to have listened to their critics, taken them seriously and made changes that have been beneficial. That isn't the usual course for SOE... they still have the most abysmal regard for their customers. It's nice to see the exceptions, too bad their not the rule. I'm sorry, schild, I still love you like the son I never wanted but, to me, somewhere, for some reason I don't know... you've sold out. Maybe someday you'll be a big wig at SOE but I hope you come to your senses instead. I've always fancied you as a lumberjack. Edit: Poor EQ2. This is it's thread so I'll not mention SWG in it again. On topic: I like EQ2's new content making it easier to solo and get things done. I dislike the fact that the early level areas seem so under-populated and the crafting mini-game just pisses me off. It's trivial to crafting. I'd rather see experimentation with materials and uber appearance customisation instead. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Shockeye on December 17, 2005, 04:34:18 PM I'm sorry, schild, I still love you like the son I never wanted but, to me, somewhere, for some reason I don't know... you've sold out. Maybe someday you'll be a big wig at SOE but I hope you come to your senses instead. I've always fancied you as a lumberjack. If by "selling out" you mean we are still paying all the server bills and still have real jobs and have to find time to keep the website updated and interesting, yes schild, Haemish and I have "sold out". Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Signe on December 17, 2005, 04:37:28 PM You know that's not what I mean.
Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Cheddar on December 17, 2005, 04:39:06 PM Look, in Schilds defense whenever SOE games come into play he has always seemed to speak well of them. But, seriously, you cannot say that SOE has been ethical towards its customers, and the treatment lately is borderline suicide. I hope they succeed with SWG... I really do. But the method they went about it was pure shit to the customer base. And this is not the first time they have done something to a customer(s).
I was not calling Schild out... I assume he knows something we do not (as in awesome patches to come, boobies, or something else cool to the SOE customer base). Sorry if my remark about being paid by people struck close to home. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Shockeye on December 17, 2005, 04:39:10 PM You know that's not what I mean. But that's the reality of it. You might want to believe that we're somehow in SOE's pocket, but we simply aren't. They aren't paying us enough... or at all. As for me defending schild, you have to remember I defended Bruce as well. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Signe on December 17, 2005, 04:53:20 PM You know that's not what I mean. But that's the reality of it. You might want to believe that we're somehow in SOE's pocket, but we simply aren't. They aren't paying us enough... or at all. As for me defending schild, you have to remember I defended Bruce as well. I'm happy you defend schild, and I'm not suggesting that anyone is in anyone else pocket, although that could be kind of exciting on a purely physical level. I just get the feeling the SOE was nice and Smedley was a good ole bloke and now they can get away with things they previously would have been crucified upside down for by some people here. I never meant anything to do with money. I'm sure if that were the case, I'd be seeing SOE advertising on the front page. Don't become offended or defensive, I just thought a wee bit of criticism was deserved. I don't waste my hate on companies like SOE. My hate is precious. Give me a Union Carbide or a Prudential Insurance and I'll give you hate. :-) I have to say, Sony's practices lately with the music side of their operation has given me quite a case of agita, though. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Shockeye on December 17, 2005, 05:21:00 PM I just get the feeling the SOE was nice and Smedley was a good ole bloke and now they can get away with things they previously would have been crucified upside down for by some people here. I only met two people from SOE, Raph and Smed. Smed did not breathe fire and he did not have a pig under his arm. His keynote speech was interesting and I have to admit it was nice to hear that he reads the website regularly. I wish he'd given me a briefcase full of cash and asked us to be easy on him, but he didn't do that. I guess there's always next year. I never meant anything to do with money. I'm sure if that were the case, I'd be seeing SOE advertising on the front page. Don't become offended or defensive, I just thought a wee bit of criticism was deserved. When you accuse someone of "selling out", the only conotation I know of involves money. This community has never been about hugs and pats on the back so criticism isn't something that I find offensive. Should we be holding SOE's feet to the fire a bit more? Maybe, probably, I don't know. They screwed up with Trials of Obi-Wan and they did leverage the NGE on the backs of their current players. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Evil Elvis on December 17, 2005, 05:32:38 PM They screwed up with Trials of Obi-Wan and they did leverage the NGE on the backs of their current players. If by levereging the nge on the backs of the current players, you meant they rammed it up their customers shit-box, dry, yeah, we're in agreement. That had to be the most underhanded thing done to a mmorpg. Somewhere, Dave Bowman shed a tear. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Fabricated on December 17, 2005, 06:27:06 PM Is there a clear idea of who really is to blame for the decision though? Was this top level management saying, "THE PERCENTAGE RETURN NUMBERS ON THIS..."STARR WARRZ" ONLINE SUBSCRIPTION PRODUCT ARE NOT UP TO SNUFF. I WANT YOU TO SYNERGIZE THE GAME WITH THESE CHANGES MY POOL BOY THOUGHT OF AND MAY FIRE A COUPLE PEOPLE TOO. DISMISSED, GET BACK TO PICKING MY COTTON," or was it purely at the SWG team level?
Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Cheddar on December 17, 2005, 06:29:26 PM Is there a clear idea of who really is to blame for the decision though? Was this top level management saying, "THE PERCENTAGE RETURN NUMBERS ON THIS..."STARR WARRZ" ONLINE SUBSCRIPTION PRODUCT ARE NOT UP TO SNUFF. I WANT YOU TO SYNERGIZE THE GAME WITH THESE CHANGES MY POOL BOY THOUGHT OF AND MAY FIRE A COUPLE PEOPLE TOO. DISMISSED, GET BACK TO PICKING MY COTTON," or was it purely at the SWG team level? I am going to go out on a limb here and say that it seems like a high level decision (from what I have read). I seriously doubt anyone with even a smidgeon of pride would release something in this manner. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: SuperPopTart on December 17, 2005, 06:50:00 PM Smedley himself might be nice, I don't care. My hate roams equally and he annoys the fluck out of me whenever I hear his name mentioned.
SOE business practices suck. SOE Customer Service sucks. SOE as a whole has very few redeeming qualities. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 17, 2005, 07:34:30 PM I think we're all very off base here. I defend SOE because somehow, the folks here think they deserve to be the target for target practice. Look, every MMOG company sucks in the same ways. There are no new ways to fuck the pigs here. Just take a look around, I'm not saying SOE makes the best games or has the best business practices. I don't think any MMOG dev deserves those proclamations. The way I look at it, personally, I'm sick of ragging on MMOG dev groups. That's why I haven't done it to anyone really. Sure, I said Eve was slow, and I've said the old SWG game sucked balls and a number of other things. But these are things everyone already knows. There's a difference between selling out and taking a different view on the entire situation. . I don't want to fight with these VERY stalwart people anymore. They aren't going to change like that. There was a time when it was funny and almost useful to be irrational and crazy about the dumb shit they do on a near daily basis. I defend SOE only because they had the balls to [TRY] change. Sure they screwed up but they don't need to read us to know that - even though they do, lots of them do. Obviously you aren't going to invoke change with shit, honey has become a necessity.
Signe: Selling out: To compromise one's values and/or aristic vision in order to gain fame and/or monetary profit. You can call me a sell out, but as I said above the reality is that I'm tired of fighting the hard fight. Uphill battles just aren't worth it. I've voted with my dollar, it's the best I can do at the moment. Luckily, I have another outlet. F13. As for ethicality on the SW:G issue, I don't think it was ethical. I also think the only other choice was to shut it down 6 months to a year down the line. Thus fucking everyone who bought the game and especially those people that bought the new expansion. As for the customers on that end of the stick... Morons. The lot of them. The original game was ass of the highest level. SOE realized that before the customers actually said it. People have been fighting for a more twitch based combat system in that game for years now. It's what Star Wars should be (unless they adopted the KotoR system). Unfortunately what they implemented wasn't....perfect. Fine. Swing and a miss. But the customers need to learn to put their money where their mouth is before I start giving two shits. A lot of the people here sat through Trammel, ToA, and other game altering expansions. Same situation. Put your money where your mouth is. If you still think I'm selling out, fine, but I'll be over here enjoying my console games (and Fate). Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Blackguard on December 17, 2005, 07:36:28 PM I should really spend about an hour writing a reply to this thread or simply pretend it doesn't exist, but I'm going to go ahead an whip something up in the 5 minutes I have before heading out to see Kong.
Is SOE evil? No... although I'm not allowed to answer that question. I will admit that there have been some bad calls in the past, and there will almost certainly be some bad calls in the future, but never have we had disdain for our players. You're our customers, and you make the games tick. Any decisions made are made for the betterment of the game and community as a whole, even if they don't always seem that way. Again, I will admit to screwing up once-in-a-while. We all do, and it's the only way we can learn not to make mistakes. Each and every one of us who works at SOE does so because we love games, and almost all of us (especially me, given my role) love the communities that play our games. The truth of the matter is that I could be making more money designing websites or writing programs all day, but I work on EverQuest II as its Community Relations Manager because I love games and I love communities. If we really wanted to screw over our players, we'd simply all go out and start an applications firm rather than make video games. It's easy to demonize a company and all its employees for making a few bad decisions or for doing something that indirectly screwed you over in some way, but we're all gamers just like you trying to make the best games we can. We may try things that you feel are deplorable in some way, but we're not doing so for the wrong reasons. I suppose there's really no way to explain how evil I am not to someone who isn't in the game industry, or doesn't work at SOE. If you ever end up joining our team, you'll find that I'm actually not full of crap. ;) Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: SuperPopTart on December 17, 2005, 07:59:58 PM Dear Mister Community Relations Manager,
I think it's absolutely fantastic that you love your player base. I think it is great that you work at SOE and your present employment because you have a genuine affection and love for your workplace, the game itself, gaming in general and the community at large. That is wonderful and really I wish everyone were as happy as you seemingly are. However, that being said, it is your job to mediate between community and company, and may I say? You can't touch the untouchables. You represent a company that for lack of a better term, isn't there. What does this mean? This means that basically, you are non existent. We don't see you. We do however see the following: We see you on patch day. We see you after an expansion is released. We see you provide an "eh" of technical support. We see you during conventions. We see you appear in game sometimes around the holiday or well..yeah around the holiday. We see you post on your message boards in these impersonal, sickly sweet "have to be a good guy" posts that dumb down the player base. That's great. Unfortunately, this is not exclusive to one company or you'd be out of business. SOE, like a few other companies out there have made lots and lots of very bad calls for their players. Usually without explaining themselves beyond a typical memo type patch message. We demonize you because you deserve to be demonized. Not always - but it's well earned. On the plus side, you seem like a really nice person so it is my hope that since you have been posting and are actually taking the time to answer posts like these you are making a difference that in my opinion SOE needs. It's very cool of you to do so. And I promise I don't think you are full of crap.. just a bit.. off. Then again, aren't we all. ;-) Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Akkori on December 17, 2005, 08:03:12 PM It sickens me every time I see someone claim that SOE does not have disdain for the playerbase. Look, I was one of their biggest fans since the day after SWG launched. I am telling you that SOE does NOT care enough about the playerbase at large. Yes, they care about certain sections of players **COUGH*jedi*COUGH**. Yes, some of the decisions they made made the game beter (combat). But they spent YEARS almost completely ignoring whole sections of players.... Umm.. Crafters, Entertainers, Ranger, Smugglers, Squad Leaders, etc...
If SOE had put an equal amount of effort into ALL cross-sections of gameplay, if they had spent even a mere 10% of their development budget on fixing bugs that were in game for YEARS, then SWG would not be taking a nose-dive right now. Maybe people at the top level should have hidden their disdian better. I mean, come on, you cant give an interview with a game mag and say that FOrum Posters are whiners, and then expect people to think you respect us. Maybe you should not have leaders at LA say things like "reading is too hard", and "people dont like complex games". Blackguard, please, tell me how removing all Decay from the game HELPED crafters? You say decisions were made for the betterment of the WHOLE game. And since crafters are still technically part of the game, how did removing decay help crafters? We dont demonize SOE for making a "few bad decisions", okay? We demonize them for making 2 YEARS worth of bad decisions. Over and over and over again. The NGE was a bad idea. Period. The combat system introduced could have fit in with the post-CURRB game. There was no need to make the game as dumbed-down as it currently is. You guys pickd the easy way, IMO. You were all afraid to tackle the bugs and imbalances in the game, and decided to wipe it and start fresh. And you STILL didnt get it quite right. And you wont as long as the people at the top keep trying to dictate to the real Devs how to do things. The SWG I knew and loved is dead. It was killed by the bean-counters in suits. They did it on purpose. They ignored the vocal minority on the forums... the people (like me) who spent many many hours trying to come up with ideas to make the game better. They decided we are all morons and nothing we wanted was possible. So instead they developed THREE new game systems in 2 years off the money we were paying them. We would rather have seen that money spent in adding new content and fixing bugs. But who cares what we want, right? Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Shockeye on December 17, 2005, 08:07:51 PM They ignored the vocal minority on the forums... SOE is a business. They are in this to make money. Money is not made appealing or listening to a minority. As unethical the timing was, they are out to make a profit and as such are going to cater to whatever group of customers brings in the biggest profit. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Hoax on December 17, 2005, 08:09:17 PM I'm sure Poptart did a much better job then I, but Schild man I like so much of what you say but you are WRONG WRONG WRONG this time.
SoE fucked the SWG fanboi's, hard, very very very hard in a very very naughty place. Sure they are SWG fanboi's, I hold them in plenty of disdain for playing that crappy game with classes that haven't worked for however many years? Who are such stupid diluted fools that they just now are realizing they were paying money to play in a sandbox that someone kept leaving broken beer bottles in. But that doesn't make what SoE did excusable, I love the idea of twitch based MMO's more then even you do, but that doesn't make destroying a game people have been playing for years an ok thing to do. Within their rights? I dunno EULA's scare me, but fucking a man, pretending you dont see what a con-job this NGE thing was is like 500 times more crazy then the whole: Atari did not exist! That was not a generation! Slap-fight a month back. Please, put down the crackpipe and go back to talking about games with cool combat/inventory/item/level/progression systems that could make a better MMO then all the EQ lookalike shit we have to play with now. I keep hoping someone will hear you, perhaps even one of our SOE visitors? So they can redeem themselves for publishing terrible games, then doing terrible things to the customers of those terrible games and failing to make Planetside + play to crush - sb.exe. *edit* DING 900, I retire from posting, as a champ, or something.... Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: SuperPopTart on December 17, 2005, 08:13:49 PM They ignored the vocal minority on the forums... SOE is a business. They are in this to make money. Money is not made appealing or listening to a minority. As unethical the timing was, they are out to make a profit and as such are going to cater to whatever group of customers brings in the biggest profit. You can't try and bullshit monopoly after you try so damn hard to personalize it. Clarification: If you want to be a whore, be a whore, don't play it nice, play it straight. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Cheddar on December 17, 2005, 08:14:24 PM They ignored the vocal minority on the forums... SOE is a business. They are in this to make money. Money is not made appealing or listening to a minority. As unethical the timing was, they are out to make a profit and as such are going to cater to whatever group of customers brings in the biggest profit. They pretty much destroyed their entire playerbase, and introduced a system with more holes then swiss cheese. If they had launched something at least 3/4 done perhaps things would not seem so dire. This was suicide, and beyond coming up with a method to bring in a few hundred thousand mouth breathers (NGE is not it), SOE has fundamentally damaged their credibility. This was not a nerf. This was not adding some new mechanics. This was complete SCORCHED EARTH. But what do I know? Up until this point I preferred to use my wallet to voice my opinion. I do hope they recover, and realize there is talent with the company. Still does not erase the truth. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 17, 2005, 08:14:40 PM I'm going to rip this apart. Sorry, it's your fault.
It sickens me every time I see someone claim that SOE does not have disdain for the playerbase. Everyone has a certain amount of disdain for a playerbase. They are a pain in the fucking ass. But you also pay their bills. It's a tug of war game to keep you paying while keeping your mouth fucking shut. Quote Look, I was one of their biggest fans since the day after SWG launched. No one cares and no one even knows what that means. Do you want SWG tattooed on your titty? Seriously. People don't say that stupid shit anymore because it's never ever ever true. Quote I am telling you that SOE does NOT care enough about the playerbase at large. Yes, they care about certain sections of players **COUGH*jedi*COUGH**. Yes, some of the decisions they made made the game beter (combat). But they spent YEARS almost completely ignoring whole sections of players.... Umm.. Crafters, Entertainers, Ranger, Smugglers, Squad Leaders, etc... SOE does care about the people playing their bills. But if 90% of their userbase wants jedi or bounty hunter, expect the rest of the classes to be neglected. Which, in turn, causes the members of those classes to raise their voice and become the bigger pain in the ass. When the reality of it is that the game shouldn't have had more than 5-6 classes to begin with. They aren't ignoring the other sections of players, they just aren't worth enough money. When your goal as a company is to make money, yea, I sort of expect that sort of action to be taken. Quote If SOE had put an equal amount of effort into ALL cross-sections of gameplay, if they had spent even a mere 10% of their development budget on fixing bugs that were in game for YEARS, then SWG would not be taking a nose-dive right now. Bullshit. Quote Maybe people at the top level should have hidden their disdian better. I mean, come on, you cant give an interview with a game mag and say that FOrum Posters are whiners, and then expect people to think you respect us. Maybe you should not have leaders at LA say things like "reading is too hard", and "people dont like complex games". This is where I step in and ask why you aren't running a game company instead of whatever it is you do. To which I say - because you are a scorned fanboi. At the end of the day, you got fucked so you think you can do a better job because you know how to solve the problem YOU had. They respect you enough, enough to look at the metrics and make a list of what is of utmost important. If 10,000 people are quietly complaining about a jedi skill and 1,000 people are LOUDLY complaining about an entertainer skill, there's no amount of loudness that makes a difference. You aren't as important. Quote We dont demonize SOE for making a "few bad decisions", okay? We demonize them for making 2 YEARS worth of bad decisions. Over and over and over again. The NGE was a bad idea. Period. The combat system introduced could have fit in with the post-CURRB game. There was no need to make the game as dumbed-down as it currently is. You guys pickd the easy way, IMO. The NGE wasn't a bad idea. It should have launched with something like it. As for the easy way out, wrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng. Couldn't be more wrong. You try putting something like that on top of all the existing architecture, particularly in a game like SW:G. Also, they ADMITTED to not being able to work on and balance 36 classes. Where the fuck were you when all the official responses came out? Oh, right screaming about how your baby was taken away. Quote You were all afraid to tackle the bugs and imbalances in the game, and decided to wipe it and start fresh. And you STILL didnt get it quite right. And you wont as long as the people at the top keep trying to dictate to the real Devs how to do things. Akkori, meet ivory tower. Also, Star Wars, for the most part, makes for terrible gaming. The bad decision was made when they decided to license the goddamn thing. It's cursed, I swear. Quote The SWG I knew and loved is dead. It was killed by the bean-counters in suits. They did it on purpose. They ignored the vocal minority on the forums... the people (like me) who spent many many hours trying to come up with ideas to make the game better. They decided we are all morons and nothing we wanted was possible. So instead they developed THREE new game systems in 2 years off the money we were paying them. We would rather have seen that money spent in adding new content and fixing bugs. But who cares what we want, right? Right. Edit: Shockeye said all that in less words. Then Cheddar pointed out why it was a bad judgement. But my opinion still stands. When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Cheddar on December 17, 2005, 08:19:29 PM One more thing. This is not a product....this is a fucking service. If McDonalds tomorrow switched from Burgers to Tacos, what do you think would happen? Especially if they did not warn anyone that the changes were going in AFTER they made their order that day.
McD's: Sir, here are your 2 tacos! Customer: 2 Tacos? WTF I order a McRoyal with cheese pimples! McD's: But sir, Tacos are better. They have spicy stuff!!! Customer: WTF??? These do not even have cheese dude! McD's: We will have cheese next week. Customer: WTF???? Taco Bell customer: Suck it up nooblets. edit. Was it a good idea? Sure. But you cannot treat customers in that manner and not expect the worst. It all comes back to ethics, and wether people will trust you in the future. That bothers me. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 17, 2005, 08:20:36 PM SoE fucked the SWG fanboi's, hard, very very very hard in a very very naughty place. Sure they are SWG fanboi's, I hold them in plenty of disdain for playing that crappy game with classes that haven't worked for however many years? Who are such stupid diluted fools that they just now are realizing they were paying money to play in a sandbox that someone kept leaving broken beer bottles in. But that doesn't make what SoE did excusable, I love the idea of twitch based MMO's more then even you do, but that doesn't make destroying a game people have been playing for years an ok thing to do. Within their rights? I dunno EULA's scare me, but fucking a man, pretending you dont see what a con-job this NGE thing was is like 500 times more crazy then the whole: Atari did not exist! That was not a generation! Slap-fight a month back. Would canceling the game a few months after an expansion came out have been ok? I mean, I'm looking at extremes here. Not a happy medium. This industry doesn't know happy mediums. Quote Please, put down the crackpipe and go back to talking about games with cool combat/inventory/item/level/progression systems that could make a better MMO then all the EQ lookalike shit we have to play with now. I've become a jaded version of my jaded self. Maybe my binge drinking plans tomorrow will fix that. Quote *edit* DING 900, I retire from posting, as a champ, or something.... Nah, keep posting, 900 is weak sauce. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: squirrel on December 17, 2005, 08:22:53 PM You see, there's the problem. What fucking ethical rule have they broken? A lot of the SOE hate imho is completely unjustified. How about releasing pay for expansion two weeks before gutting the game the expansion is for? Sure glad they fixed creature handlers for those 14 days. And yes i know they offered refunds, well after the fact and only prompted by a huge outcry. This is a totally unethical business practice in any industry, in fact in some better regulated industries it's illegal. This ignores all the other CSR and PR bullshit they've pulled on their customers over the last 6 years, which apparently falls under ethical in your book. When did you become such an SOE shrill? Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 17, 2005, 08:24:20 PM Keep reading the thread, n00bkins.
Edit: Left out a word. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Cheddar on December 17, 2005, 08:28:17 PM <words> The way I look at it, personally, I'm sick of ragging on MMOG dev groups. That's why I haven't done it to anyone really. <words>Obviously you aren't going to invoke change with shit, honey has become a necessity. <a lot more words> Lum realized this YEARS ago (mind you he needed a job, but regardless), and I honestly think the industry has benefitted from him turning to the grey side (I refuse to believe these people are sitting around, tossing babies on spits, praying to their fluffy cat Gods and enslaving crickets to build their Temples). But personally I think it would be better to choose a more... open... company to campaign and defend. But I agree. More honey, less feces flinging. If you have the ability to actually get that honey to them that is (I can only veto my dollar). Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: squirrel on December 17, 2005, 08:29:19 PM Keep reading the thread, n00bkins. Edit: Left out a word. I did eminent one. And i still don't see how you can justify their actions as ethical, which was the crux of the argument. I don't give a fuck if you think the customers are idiots or if they actually are idiots. That's neither here nor there. Personally i think the NGE was a well intended change completely mismanaged. That's also neither here nor there. What's a fact is that they charged a few hundred thousand people for a product THEY KNEW THEY WERE NOT GOING TO DELIVER. Fuck, it's so obvious they were willingly screwing people i can't believe you'd defend it as an ethical practice. And please, lay off the 'a game is at steak!' melodrama - the what and the how are completely separate topics. What fucking disdain? Give me an example of disdain. A single one. I can see a little disregard here and there, but you can't tell me that drastic changes to SW:G weren't necessary. So try and find a real example. I can show you places where nearly every other MMORPG company has pulled some of the same shit time and time again. Yet you're still playing MMORPGs, so that's obviously not what set you off. Um ok how about selling an expansion based on features and improvements that you KNEW were going to be irrelelvant 14 days after you'd drained the walking wallets called customers you'd just lied to. WTF. I can't think of a single example of a AAA MMORPG pulling anything this underhanded or unethical. How about you provide examples of this occuring time and time again? Oh and thanks, i thought only IGN and WoW boards insulted people with noobkins. Yer sure leet. or something. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Akkori on December 17, 2005, 08:36:53 PM Well Schild, we may not agree on much, but we DO agree that SWG should never have come to pass. I would have loved for my first MMO to have been identical to SWG but in some other science-fiction setting. We also agree that the combat should have been in the first incarnation... along with collision detection. We again agree that money, not ethics, controls the actions of SOE (well, I added the ethics part, heheh, but its TRUE!).
I will gladly develop a game. Someone point me toward a SILENT investor, and I will design a SWG2003/WoW/Eve/ATitD game that will satify ALL of the BArtle stlyes of MMO gamers. I will regularly and loudly tell the suits up top to fuck off and be happy with what they get. I will also make use of the thousands, nay *millions* of man-hours available to game companies by putting in a system by which PLAYERS can design content, and craft Art & Music assets for inclusion in the game. Its just a matter of setting expectations and sticking to them. If the game is making the middle 8 figures a yaer (such as SWG was, easily), why push for 9 digits? If 9 digits happens, great, if not, no problem. Greed killed SWG. (and btw, it IS true I am a day 2 veteran) Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: HaemishM on December 17, 2005, 08:42:12 PM Are you kidding? Same level as EA? They're doing Its an ethical issue in my eyes- to me it is equivalent as to why I am not purchasing EA games. 'tis all. How much IS Sony paying you, Schild? I am curious as to why you keep defending these guys when they show time and again disdain for their players. I am all about a little biting and scratching, but drawing blood is generally where I draw the line. I haven't even read all of this thread. And I just have to say... WHAT... THE... FUCK????? Seriously, are we fucking 13 years old and talking about Metallica making a motherfucking video? What in anyway makes you think this fucking site or schild has been or is being paid by SOE or any other company? I don't see SOE ad banners everywhere. You don't see Star Wars Galaxies Starter Kits sponosoring every page. We get fuckall for writing on this site. Occasionally, someone will pay us for ad space. Otherwise, this is something Shockeye and Schild pay out of their pockets for. Are you saying this because schild got a trip to Austin to see the NGE before it got released? I'd have done that. In a fucking heartbeat. It's not often you see someone stupid enough to pay the air fare of people who generally speaking talk more shit about them than homophobes talk about La Cages Aux Folles. This is somehow a bad thing? How is that selling out? Did he come back and say "SOE IS DA GREATEST BUY ALL THEIR STUFFZZZ LOLXZOR!" I'll take the tag "SELL OUT" when I'm drawing a motherfucking check from someone AND not saying what I think about them. Before that, keep it in fucking high school. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: SuperPopTart on December 17, 2005, 08:43:18 PM Editing this for stupidity, I can just look over at you and yell at you for swearing.
It'll be like we are in high school. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 17, 2005, 08:49:09 PM Squirrel, I'm skipping the rest of your post because this situation is considered unethical and worthy of debate in a way that Mourning and Horizons wasn't. Also, if this had happened with Ryzom or something no one would have given a shit and everyone would have lolled at the french...again. Like I said before, I'm tired of being irrational.
Oh and thanks, i thought only IGN and WoW boards insulted people with noobkins. Yer sure leet. or something. Regrettably, I thought I was being original and cute because you share a name with a small woodland creature. I don't read IGN or the WoW boards. /sadf Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Cheddar on December 17, 2005, 08:50:46 PM Seriously, are we fucking 13 years old and talking about Metallica making a motherfucking video? What in anyway makes you think this fucking site or schild has been or is being paid by SOE or any other company? I don't see SOE ad banners everywhere. You don't see Star Wars Galaxies Starter Kits sponosoring every page. We get fuckall for writing on this site. Occasionally, someone will pay us for ad space. Otherwise, this is something Shockeye and Schild pay out of their pockets for. Are you saying this because schild got a trip to Austin to see the NGE before it got released? I'd have done that. In a fucking heartbeat. It's not often you see someone stupid enough to pay the air fare of people who generally speaking talk more shit about them than homophobes talk about La Cages Aux Folles. This is somehow a bad thing? How is that selling out? Did he come back and say "SOE IS DA GREATEST BUY ALL THEIR STUFFZZZ LOLXZOR!" I'll take the tag "SELL OUT" when I'm drawing a motherfucking check from someone AND not saying what I think about them. Before that, keep it in fucking high school. I explained what I was talking about. It was a snide comment I made in another thread. I did not realize it would set all this off... shit you people keep chasing me back to Lurker status. Or I chase myself to it... or something something. Sorry. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Signe on December 17, 2005, 08:53:36 PM I wish I hadn't used those words "sell out". I didn't mean to imply anything about money. It was just bad wording.
Just to make one thing clear, however... I would sell you all up the river for a pack of cigarettes. I really would. Except for PopTart. I'd just make her smoke with me. At gun point, if necessary. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: squirrel on December 17, 2005, 08:54:29 PM Squirrel, I'm skipping the rest of your post because this situation is considered unethical and worthy of debate in a way that Mourning and Horizons wasn't. Also, if this had happened with Ryzom or something no one would have given a shit and everyone would have lolled at the french...again. Like I said before, I'm tired of being irrational. Oh and thanks, i thought only IGN and WoW boards insulted people with noobkins. Yer sure leet. or something. Regrettably, I thought I was being original and cute because you share a name with a small woodland creature. I don't read IGN or the WoW boards. /sadf Well, you're wiser than I, although i don't read IGN i do find myself on the WoW boards. The point being from my perspective that i don't think SOE was evil in there attempt to make a better game. They screwed it up big-time in my opinion but whatever, that's their perogative. But the expansion issue is one that is not highlighted enough in these discussions. At some point you know there was a meeting where it was decided to release the expansion despite the fact that the NGE was looming, and unannounced, and would render 85% of the expansion irrelevant. That is unethical and in some industries illegal. To bring this to light and be angry about it is not irrational. To defend a firm with this kind of business practice, well, that defines irrational for me. YMMV obviously. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Righ on December 17, 2005, 08:56:27 PM SOE needs to embrace a service organization model. If they're watching, perhaps this will help:
http://www.ouellette-online.com/ITservice.html Think about the Disney corporation. If you take an unsatisfactory product back to the Disney store and for some reason start being Mr. Angry, the sales assistant won't look all flustered, look around the store for help, panic, stutter, and tell you he needs to get his manager. Even the lowly assistants are well trained and empowered. He'll be calming, and will say the right things, and offer replacements, refunds and support. Almost without exception, the online games industry is not like this. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 17, 2005, 09:00:14 PM To bring this to light and be angry about it is not irrational. If even half of the online gamers knew how to be civilizard I'd agree. Quote To defend a firm with this kind of business practice, well, that defines irrational for me. YMMV obviously. SOE and LA invested more money into a dying game and tried something new. It was spectacularly mismanaged at launch. I don't care about the ethical side of the situation and I'm not defending them for that. I defend solely based on the fact they put their balls right in front of the barrel when the collective finger was on the trigger. I'm not selling out or going soft, I'm just being reasonable. Even if it's unethical I'd like to see companies throwing money around wishy washy instead of turning the online gaming industry into an extension of plain jane EA console world. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Cheddar on December 17, 2005, 09:03:51 PM But this sets the industry BACK. It creates x amount of jaded customers, and shows that throwing money into a dying game is futile (regardless of the unique circumstances). Investors in the future will be more nervous to save dying MMOGs, and this will be the example.
Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 17, 2005, 09:04:45 PM WoW created a buffer zone for fuckups. Seriously.
Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Righ on December 17, 2005, 09:05:21 PM Even if it's unethical I'd like to see companies throwing money around wishy washy instead of turning the online gaming industry into an extension of plain jane EA console world. If you still think I'm selling out, fine, but I'll be over here enjoying my console games (and Fate). Heh. Heh heh. Yes, I'm grinning. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Nyght on December 17, 2005, 09:22:27 PM Its not that complicated. People paid in advance for multiple months and were not offered a refund or recourse to keep the existing game.
The entire argument hinges on whether or not the changed game is the same product. If you believe that it is the same product, then no problem. If it is in fact found to be a different product, then it can be classified as a bait and switch, which is actionable under consumer law in many states. At the very least, it is easy to see how people that feel it is a different product find SOE actions unethical. How bad the rest of the industry is or whether the game would been shut down or not have no bearing on this (especially in the case of a shutdowns because then they would be force by law to give refunds). And yes Schild, you did say things about the game demo that were unusually positive for this site and it did influence a lot of people. I saw the effects reflected out in many other places. Many of those folks now find they are not in agreement with you. Life goes on. Welcome to hte hate. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: HaemishM on December 17, 2005, 09:26:50 PM I think we need to remember back to the days of Hurricane Katrina for the answer to this conundrum.
See, never blame on malice what plain old incompetence will explain. The NGE shit, changing the game 2 weeks after an expansion? THAT'S SOE. I've been saying this shit for fucking years. YEARS. I got my cherry in this regard busted by SOE with EQ1. And you know what? I vowed then that I would never buy another one of their fucking products. I've stuck to it. They don't get my money. I even gave them the chance with the NGE, knowing what would probably happen (though thankfully, I didn't pay them any money for it). And they still fucked it up. Like Blizzard, they have no idea how to run a service. They just plain do not have the knowledge, expertise or wherewithal to do so. Sorry, Blackguard, Smed, Raph. I'm sure you are all nice guys in person. But your company is the equivalent of the village fucking idiot. With pussing, oozing sores, masturbating furiously in the middle of the street while everyone with half a fucking brain tries hard not to look at you. And the SOE customers? You dumb motherfuckers are the helpful charity people, who come in and try to teach the retard not to piss his pants and jerk the chicken in public, thinking that somehow he will change. HE WON'T, no matter how many accounts you pay for. Fuckheads. I don't know if it starts with the Head Pigfucking Poobah Smedley or if it's somewhere in the layers of corporate-mandated middle management, or if it's a matter of incompetence at the lowest levels. But somewhere, something always gets missed, ignored or just plain thought irrelevant. Like, oh, not fucking the crafters directly in the pooper when you implement your FPS engine. Or doing something like actually TESTING THE FUCKING ENGINE before pushing it live. Come on, TWO WEEKS? So in the land of incompetence, pigfucking isn't something malicious, it's just what they do. Guess what, customers? YOU ARE THE PIGGIE. OINK MOTHERFUCKING OINK. You enabled this shit for years, it's useless to complain about it now. SOE has had at least 4 years since I left EQ1 to realize how incompetently they manage player bases, but they haven't and they never will. I can't blame someone whose first MMOG was SWG, unless they hang around for 2 years, because MMOG players should know better. Frankly, making fun of SOE is sometimes fun, but really, it's old hat. Better than me and anyone on here has tried and tried to "fix" the problem that is SOE and it ain't getting fixed. Once a pigfucker, always a pigfucker. Blackguard, I feel for you. Being the community manager in any MMOG is a thankless, shitty, soul-crushing job. But being a CM for an SOE game? That's like being the boil inspector at a goddamn leper camp for syphilis sufferers. You're a sick man, and I like that about you. Smed, how you doing? /wave You're a pigfucker. I give you the same challenge I do your old buddy McQuaid. Post on this board. See how people really feel about you in particular as the avatar of SOE. You really are the lemming in the crosshairs and if you would stop saying shit like you did in that Gamespy or Gamespot or some other fucking fellatio site the other day and come correct with stuff, you might not have insignificant pissants like myself making pigfucker avatars of you. But all of this has been said before. This industry keeps on keeping on because WE STILL PAY FOR IT TO BE THIS WAY. No amount of piss and vinegar and insults I, or schild or Righ or Signe or Cheddar or squirrel or Lum or Joe or Poppinfresh or any of a host of others will mean fuckall other than hurting some individual human being's feelings until we stop buying what they are selling us, thus forcing them to make something we want. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: HaemishM on December 17, 2005, 09:35:48 PM And another thing.
If it wasn't SOE's game or the company SOE that schild has been talking about, NO ONE would have said a thing about sell out. SOE gets a massive metric fuckton of well-deserved (IMO) hate. But if it had been Mythic that had flown schild out to see a build of Warhammer Online, would anyone's panties be in a twist? If it had been ME that had been flown to SOE, would I be called a sellout? Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 17, 2005, 09:40:07 PM And yes Schild, you did say things about the game demo that were unusually positive for this site and it did influence a lot of people. I saw the effects reflected out in many other places. Many of those folks now find they are not in agreement with you. Life goes on. Welcome to hte hate. A few weeks ago, I decided to not play it for realz until colission was in. If my voice meant anything, half of these fuckers wouldn't have been playing WoW. LEMMINGS. LEMMINGS LEMMINGS LEMMINGS (http://www.sirjohnsworld.com/images/lemmings.jpg) I didn't say the NGE was the cat's meow. I didn't actually say it was fun. I said it was more fun than what SWG was before (HI, LOW BAR) and I said people should support them because they tried to CHANGE. If people are mad at me because of that, fuck em. I don't want fair weather fans. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Surlyboi on December 17, 2005, 10:39:13 PM And another thing. If it wasn't SOE's game or the company SOE that schild has been talking about, NO ONE would have said a thing about sell out. SOE gets a massive metric fuckton of well-deserved (IMO) hate. But if it had been Mythic that had flown schild out to see a build of Warhammer Online, would anyone's panties be in a twist? Only if he seemed to felate mythic as much as he's seemed to felate SOE for simply "trying something different". Trying something different for SOE is like Manson deciding he'll pick another Beatles song to write on the walls in other people's blood; it's a bullshit proposition from go. With all your SOE beef, you of all people should identify. Quote If it had been ME that had been flown to SOE, would I be called a sellout? I wouldn't call you a sellout at all. Full of shit, perhaps. Deluded and cracked out, certainly. But then, I wouldn't call Schild a sellout either, just far too forgiving of the gang that couldn't shoot straight. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: d4rkj3di on December 17, 2005, 11:03:29 PM I was in the "Never going to play SWG again" camp until schild gave up the info in the NGE. It did sound interesting, and I agreed that 15 dollars was worth it to check it out and to support SOE for taking a risk. However, after 30 days I cancelled because I simply cannot justify rewarding incompetence. Maybe in 6 months I'll toss another 15 dollars at it, but right now it's barely playable. Then again, in 6 months, I could be involved in some new shiny, smacking the buttons to get the pellets.
Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: El Gallo on December 17, 2005, 11:44:05 PM SoE is not worth hating. Really, hating SoE at this point is like hating the Washington Generals.
SWG and EQ2 have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the only person with any degree of talent and vision (however misguided) at that company was Brad McQuaid. SoE had market position and two bites at the second generation apple, one of it with the first generation king's IP and the other with the most valuable IP in the gaming universe. Nevertheless, they got thier asses utterly reamed, and rightfully so. Because they can't make games for shit. Every time anyone from SoE has opened their trap since then has done nothing but prove that they don't understand why they got assreamed and they don't have the talent to stop it even if they had the vision to do so, which they lack. So, yeah. They ripped off their customers by selling a SWG expansion while the NGE was already ready to go. They fucking disgraced anybody who has ever played a role playing game when Smedley dropped to his knees, sucked Pat Robertson's cock and banned Mystere. They've done all that and more. But who cares? Hating SoE is like hating the schoolyard bully from elementary school as a forty year old. It's like hating Menudo. It's like hating Glitchless. SoE is simply irrelevant now. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Blackguard on December 17, 2005, 11:51:48 PM If it is in fact found to be a different product, then it can be classified as a bait and switch, which is actionable under consumer law in many states. Rather than comment on something I'm not really capable or qualified to comment on (that is, Star Wars Galaxies in general, as I do not currently work on the project, nor have I in the past), I'll comment on what exactly scares the piss out of me every time I read the above statement (and believe me, I've seen variations of that statement for years now)...Oh what a pickle this entire genre of gaming would be in if such a thing were to come to pass. It's not the implications that my company could be harmed from such a situation that scares me, it's the fact that if changing a game were actionable, massively multiplayer games would die out entirely. Think about it. We put these things out the door and update them constantly because the player-base demands it. Changes would never be made if we could simply release a game and let it sit, surviving by the very nature of its existence. If we didn't change MMOGs after release, they would survive for a brief period of time before fizzling out and amount to massive wastes of development money (these things cost tens of millions of dollars these days, and don't start turning a profit for years after their release in most cases). If a lawsuit of this nature were ever filed and fulfilled, development studios would put the kibosh on changing the games at all, would never make a new MMOG, and we would all (developers and players alike) have to watch a genre die out before it even hit puberty. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Blackguard on December 17, 2005, 11:53:27 PM And on a lighter note, half my time reading this thread was spent staring at Righ's WoWPod avatar.
Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Margalis on December 17, 2005, 11:58:11 PM If it is in fact found to be a different product, then it can be classified as a bait and switch, which is actionable under consumer law in many states. You pay per month. If you subscribe to the NYT and it changes to a skin mag you cancel. Same deal here. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Surlyboi on December 18, 2005, 12:03:28 AM I doubt the actionability of changing gameplay would doom MMOs. Not that it might not be taken to the extreme as everything else is in this great land of ours, but what happened with SWG was essentially a rip-it-up-and-start-again deal which didn't just change gameplay a little. It altered the game's core concepts. Should you guys be taken to court for that? Who knows? But it is a fairly one-sided renegotiation of the contract you had with your playerbase, regardless of your intentions to keep the game viable.
And I agree with you to a point, Margalis. I'd drop it if I was paying for it, but there are people out there who have a lot more riding on it than just a game. Comparing it to something like the NYT turning into a skin mag is a bit of a false comparison. It'd be more akin to the editors and columnists at the NYT being told after working there for two years that the paper was gonna go all T&A all the time and they could either write articles about the T&A or they could quit. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: squirrel on December 18, 2005, 12:16:57 AM If it is in fact found to be a different product, then it can be classified as a bait and switch, which is actionable under consumer law in many states. You pay per month. If you subscribe to the NYT and it changes to a skin mag you cancel. Same deal here. Really? So the expansion pack which promised fixes and additions to classes that didn't exist 14 days after it was released is somehow exempt because the main product is subscription model? I don't think so. Bad analogy there. Note that i'm not saying what they did was illegal. Just incredibly fucking nasty. A better analogy would be an ASP software provider. If i provided you with administration tools for your business as a service (think salesforce.com) and i released an expansion/upgrade that you paid for promising it fixed or improved features x,y,z - you can bet your ass i'm getting sued if i turn around and remove features x,y,z from the main product 2 weeks later. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: heck on December 18, 2005, 12:43:04 AM You can call me a sell out, but as I said above the reality is that I'm tired of fighting the hard fight. And blaming players is an easy fight :-D Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 18, 2005, 12:53:58 AM You can call me a sell out, but as I said above the reality is that I'm tired of fighting the hard fight. And blaming players is an easy fight :-DI see what you're getting at and you're wrong. Blaming players is harder than blaming devs. I'm a player, you see, it's my money too. And I spend a lot of money on the gaming industry. I'd much rather blame the developers. But here's the problem - they are players also. What I need to do is get in touch with a company that makes really really really shitty games. I mean stuff like Aeon Flux and ask them if they wake up in the morning and dread going to work. Or if they know what they're making is shitty but they do it anyway and comprimise the whole integrity of the thing. At the end of the day, the people who set the low bar effect the industry more than the people who set the high bar. It's easier to reach a medium than succeed. The problem is that gamers buy the low bar stuff. Thus making it ok for those fuckers to keep cranking out crap. As Haemish said, we're enablers. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Samwise on December 18, 2005, 12:55:03 AM there are people out there who have a lot more riding on it than just a game. Comparing it to something like the NYT turning into a skin mag is a bit of a false comparison. It'd be more akin to the editors and columnists at the NYT being told after working there for two years that the paper was gonna go all T&A all the time and they could either write articles about the T&A or they could quit. The difference is that if you quit your job, your family goes hungry. If you quit your MMOG, your family gets to see you again. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Triforcer on December 18, 2005, 01:09:43 AM As a law student, based on watching my fellow risk-averse law students (christ, I just played poker for five hours with six other students, none of us were eliminated out or had more than +- 20% of our starting chips when we stopped), Blackguard is right about the consequences of a successful "you nerfed my class/sword/favorite zone" lawsuit. No in-house counsel in their right mind would let their company even MAKE an MMO if these kinds of things even gained the slightest bit of traction.
That being said, it doesn't mean that judges will see this as any different than any other consumer product...I'm writing my 3L thesis on future cyber/consumer law as it applies to MMOs and frankly I am as apprehensive as Blackguard. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Margalis on December 18, 2005, 01:32:52 AM Really? So the expansion pack which promised fixes and additions to classes that didn't exist 14 days after it was released is somehow exempt because the main product is subscription model? I don't think so. Bad analogy there. Note that i'm not saying what they did was illegal. Just incredibly fucking nasty. Yes, it was nasty. The expansion pack thing is interesting. In general the MMORPG pay model doesn't do a good job accounting for what the box sales and sub fees are for. Is the box fee just what you pay for the priveledge of then subscribing? It isn't really clear what you are paying for. I do think people who bought expansions deserve that money back. I was under the impression that people could get refunds for the most recent expansion. This is a hairy subject because live updates are at the heart of MMORPGS. People want and expect live updates. What about the people who complain when an overpowered class that they played is nerfed? Quote Comparing it to something like the NYT turning into a skin mag is a bit of a false comparison. It'd be more akin to the editors and columnists at the NYT being told after working there for two years that the paper was gonna go all T&A all the time and they could either write articles about the T&A or they could quit. That sort of thing happens all the time. It's not nice but it's legal. IMO MMORPGs need to make it VERY clear what you are getting: you pay for the priveledge to play. They own your characters, your items, everything in the game. They can change whatever they want at any time. Everything you "earn" in game belongs to them. It's a fantasy they control and you pay to take part in. If something changes dramatically, the most they owe you is that months sub fees pro-rated and any future pre-paid sub fees should you choose to cancel because of those changes. Now how does that square with a box fee? I don't know. It doesn't really. A lot of this just comes down to EULAs. Most EULAs now basically say the software doesn't have to do anything at all, it doesn't have to work, it can be malicious. Edit: This is why I keep saying that games where they sell items for cash are a terrible idea. In that case the gamer can make the argument that they DO own that Sword of Ass Kicking and when you nerfed it you were destroying something you didn't own. That's a Pandora's Box waiting to be opened. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Venkman on December 18, 2005, 06:32:39 AM This thread cracks me up. It's the microcosm of the whole problem. There are people who only want to talk about hating SOE for how they rolled this out, and those who become labelled as fanbois of SOE for trying to talk about what the actually NGE is (or for spouting the heresy that is the business side of things, or trying to understand the bigger picture, or any action that doesn't automatically, blindly, and Patriotically side with players of a game almost nobody here was playing because of the things that made the NGE required in the first place).
You know what I hate? I hate the fact that liking a game can ostracize a player. Yes, sometimes, it's a timing thing, like some poor schmuck who says he likes SWG two days after the NGE gets patched. Sucker. I'm just glad this isn't really the case here as much as it was in the predecessors. More inclusions means more attention means better discussions with people who know stuff. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Typhon on December 18, 2005, 06:39:36 AM If it had been ME that had been flown to SOE, would I be called a sellout? Yes. But that's because you don't let your excited show, so I would have assumed that you sold out. I would have used the term "whore". With schild, I kept my mouth shut because, well, schild gets excited about things (c.f. PSP). I got the same feeling that Signe did, but I think the proper thing to accuse schild of is "being a slut". I don't think he got paid/promised anything, I think Smed and Raph murmured sweet/smart nothings in his ear and next thing you know he's got his skirt over his head. He came back to f13 with stars in his eyes, not understanding why we don't think Smed is dreamy. That said, it's kinda tough to beat up on schild with a clear conscious when I agree that SOE is trying to do the right thing, i.e. trying to make the game what it should have been from the beginning - something like what we saw in the movies and not an Aunt Beru simulator. Unfortunately, these changes ended up being very destructive to many playstyles. People hate change. Y'all put alot of time into this site, if you'd like to take it to a place that is less-hate/more-gush that's your call. It's gonna be a tough balancing act cause your constituency might not be ready to move to a kinder, gentler f13. Get used to hearing 'sell out' from folks that would just like to continue bitching about anything and everything and not be bothered with the bigger picture. People hate change. As for SOE-hate, anyone that played EQ in the early years knows why SOE deserves to be hated. Somethings can never be forgiven, never be forgotten. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Akkori on December 18, 2005, 07:06:29 AM Well, what it boils down to for me is that I think the NGE is an entirely new game, only recognizable as the old by virtue of the graphical sprites in game. IMHO, if SOE had wanted to do things right, they would have taken most the server and loaded them with post or pre-CURB code, and loaded a couple others with the NGE Beta. Character copies to NGE servers would have been available so people could test the NGE beta for free. After a couple months of this, they could have re-launched the NGE on those same servers, consolidated CURB servers, and split thier focus. Yeah, I know it would never happen. Or, they could let someone else admisiter the CURB servers. Whatever.
Bottom line, I want to play a game that requires thought, strategic combat, reading, sorting out complicated quests, complex and deep crafting, strategic combat, and solid and generous tools for players to make their own content. SWG ver1 had about 3 and a half of those things. I am not some hack & slash player, and SWG didnt used to be a hack & slash (& loot) game. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Numtini on December 18, 2005, 07:11:30 AM Legally you can make it as clear as you want that players don't own anything in the game and that it's all "fa la lalala live for today." However, I don't think you can build a business on it if you actually operate that way. Persistance and long term character development are the hooks that made people accept the subscription based model. There's a basic social contract there and they've betrayed that. It really doesn't matter how good or bad the NGE is. You can tell me "hey girl, smell the coffee, this is a business" but that's missing the point because if people internalize that feeling, it hurts the core subscription model.
Like Turbine with macroing, I don't think SOE begins to understand the damage they've done to their future potential with this. It will bleed to other games and SOE's reputation was already a major problem for them. I'm still shocked that there isn't more fallout for LA over this and the other SWG disasters. SOE is pretty clue free on most things, but even they don't seem either stupid or malevolent enough to put out a box and announce major features are being eliminated from the game 24 hours later. It still smells like something that came from elsewhere. Then if the Christmas Special didn't stick to Lucas, nothing will. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: tkinnun0 on December 18, 2005, 07:46:19 AM if changing a game were actionable, massively multiplayer games would die out entirely. Utter, utter bollocks. I pay a monthly fee to my bank, but that doesn't mean they get to change my balance even if it would be better for their whole customer base. What might happen is that MMOGs would be operated from countries where losing a customer's Sword of Power and not replacing it would be an inviable business model but would not bankrupt you outright. More likely, what would happen is that those kinds of risks would have been accounted for from the start. Like other businesses have had to do since forever. This isn't rocket science. So you want to change to a new combat system and remove some classes. Fine, slap it on top of the old game, label the old game levels 1-20 and add /level20. So your old classes can solo Krayts. Fine, make some in-game lore that Krayt graveyard is on contaminated land and is not a graveyard at all, here's the REAL graveyard. Sure, your customers could be pissed, they might not like the way Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Malathor on December 18, 2005, 08:18:54 AM The ever less finished, ever more cockblocked EQ expansions.
The Legends (never see a live event on your normal server ever again!) server. Oursourcing EQ's CS to whereverthefuckistan (cause they really really relate to American kids playing video games out there). The whole ship it (SWG, PS) by X date whatever condition it's in, forever wrecking what should have been great games. Diverting EQ2's dev resources to fucking station exchange (way to not get what achievement-oriented Diku MUDs are all about, LOL) when the were in the middle of losing the battle to WoW. EQ2's nickle and diming their customers for every new content addition. Billboards + gutted dev teams, instead of trying to put money into fixing broken games. The new "Thottbot for $$$" they are putting into EQ2. This lets keep NGE secret till the day after we release this expansion and keep promising them stuff that we know perfectly well will never be implemented so they won't have a clue it's coming. All speak to a single, overriding problem with SOE. The guy at the top is more concerned about monetizing his customers than he is about providing a quality game experience. He could be the nicest guy in the world, whatever. Actions speak louder than words, and his actions have proven time and again that it's all about the $$$ as far as he is concerned. Even now all he can talk about is new revenue schemes, instead of new, and better games. That is why SOE is failing. SOE had an effective monopoly, and Smed came to the conclusion that their players were sheep that could be squeezed as much as they pleased, but the players never forgot. Now SOE's name is shit, and even if they actually came out with a great game players know what would be coming down the pike once Smed got his claws on it, and would pick something different if they possibly could. Either Smed needs to pull a grinch-like 180, or he needs to be replaced. SOE is doomed otherwise. That's why the SOE hate is helpful, constructive even. It's like the body's pain response. If we didnt feel pain, we wouldn't know if something was fucked up with us. If people don't hate SOE, they'll never understand that there is a problem that is killing them. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Merusk on December 18, 2005, 09:06:15 AM There's so much stupid in this thread it pains me to read it. Seriously, I wince at each and every argument on both sides. I can't even make it through the second page.
SOE has several problems. It'll take them a long while to fix any one of them. I don't hate them anymore as much as I pity their situation these days. I had a lot of hate for them when I was playing EQ, but that was about the devs more than the company. In fact, I'll make that point one. 1) Stupid design decisions that simply turned what should be entertainment into a lifestyle. I can't blame them for the initial design of EQ, and for its time it wasn't bad. As time went on they even made it easier to 'level up' so you could get to the endgame. However, it still took far, far longer than even a drawn-out RPG like FF, with far less interactive content. Then, after McQuaid left, they started adding-in cockblocks to the little content there was. The Luclin key systems, the PoP flag garbage. It was too much, and took too much time for far too little investment. This was what made me hate SOE. It wasn't that I was CHOOSING to spend x hours in the game, it was that I was being FORCED to. There's a big difference between the two.. look I have 900+ hours in WoW since I installed X-fire, and I don't have any hate for Blizz yet. Why? Because it's my choice, not a requirement so that I can do things with my friends/ guildmates. 2) They've had shitty, shitty, SHITTY community relations for YEARS. They have a history of publicly putting their foot in their mouthstretching all the way back to Abashi in EQ. Idiots at the customer service front end like Malice/Faarwolf, or nightmares like Milo's "Shut-up and pay for my Porche upgrades," or the way the "Mystere story" was handled have long and far-reaching effects. Most of those were YEARS ago and I still recall them and their poor handling. There's a rule in the service industry (purportedly supported by studies) that for each bad encounter a customer needs 7 good encounters to overcome the ill-will from the bad one. SOE has had a LOT of very bad very public customer encounters, but for the life of me I can't think of a good one. 3) I read Righ's post and he's absolutely correct. SOE needs to embrace and learn from the service industries. Thus far they have taken a commodity-based approach. "Here's the product, see ya if there's a problem." 4) You have no face that the majority of your customers see. So many SOE talking-heads will point out that the boards are only a small percentage of players when forums are in an uproar about one thing or another. However, if you piss those people off they're not just grumbling about it on the boards. They're doing it on other boards, in /guild chat, to all their friends and group-mates, in any global/ zone-wide channel. This means the pissed-off people are the ones painting your corporate image. Whoops, big problem there. 5) SOE is perceived as designing games for profit rather than fun. Blizzard is out to sell games the same as SOE, but they're largely viewed as wanting to sell fun games rather than make a quick buck. Why is that? Why aren't they reviled for just stealing other people's ideas and polishing them up? Because they're great fun and have relatively few problems. Two things that should be standard from ANY professional company, but are so lacking in the whole industry that it makes them Gods among Men. 6) Someone needs to keep Smed from talking to the games press outside of prepared speeches. Did Norio Ohga do public interviews? Does Howard Stringer? No, you have people that do that because their job is thinking up the ideas for other people to sell for the public. Smed's ideas and thoughts about the direction of games and how to generate revenue are great from a business standpoint, but they piss off the people who you should be using to help promote SOE because they're sold poorly. Micropayments, for example, could be a good thing. Sell it as, "consume the content at your own pace, don't have to pay $30 for a whole expansion just $5 for the bits you want" Instead, because of a poor method of communicating and/or selling it's seen as, "just another fucking money-grab from those assholes at SOE" and used as fuel for the people in #3. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Nyght on December 18, 2005, 09:18:49 AM Oh what a pickle this entire genre of gaming would be in if such a thing were to come to pass. It's not the implications that my company could be harmed from such a situation that scares me, it's the fact that if changing a game were actionable, massively multiplayer games would die out entirely. Think about it. We put these things out the door and update them constantly because the player-base demands it. Changes would never be made if we could simply release a game and let it sit, surviving by the very nature of its existence. If we didn't change MMOGs after release, they would survive for a brief period of time before fizzling out and amount to massive wastes of development money (these things cost tens of millions of dollars these days, and don't start turning a profit for years after their release in most cases). If a lawsuit of this nature were ever filed and fulfilled, development studios would put the kibosh on changing the games at all, would never make a new MMOG, and we would all (developers and players alike) have to watch a genre die out before it even hit puberty. Well, lets not go to la la land here. One individual is unlikely to file suit over even a year's subscription. The dollars are not near big enough. If enough people did complain, a state agency would probably ask that consumers be allowed refunds for unused service time. And finally, all that it takes to resolve this, is to allow cancellation to be effective immediately with a prorated refund for unused service. Yes, a bit of accounting overhead and some lost revenue that could be argued you weren't entitled to anyway. Hardly the death of a genre. Wanted to add: And proving that it is a different product would be no mean feat. But just because your likely to get away with something as a business, doesn't mean it's a good plan. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Miasma on December 18, 2005, 09:23:40 AM I can understand the SOE hate, they lie and change their minds so often. If they were merely incompetent then I wouldn't "hate" them, but they are devious and greedy as well. I only played SWG for the first month but all of the fiascoes that the long time players have been posting makes me wonder why anyone stuck with it for so long. EQ2 was good by comparison but even they did some really dirty things. There was supposed to be a large quest to unlock the Froglock race on each server from day one, they claimed it was implemented and there for a long time. People were working hard to try and figure it out, then they later announced that no, it wasn't actually even in the game yet. Just outright lying. They did the same thing in EQ1 a bunch of times. You know, intentionally making encounters impossible to beat because the content after it wasn't done yet. They aren't trustworthy.
As for greed, a certain amount of that I can understand, they are a company trying to make money after all. I can swallow micropayments for adventure packs, the idea of paying a few dollars to play something that wouldn't be available if not for the money it brought in seems sensible. But the /pizza command, the advertisements every time you boot up the game, the in your face way they try and get you to buy expansion packs, the little add ons they want you to buy to get access to websites, station exchange - it's just too much. I knew when I went through the long install process for EQ2 with the background images touting Kingston memory I was going to have a problem. They would make a lot more money if they put as much effort into improving their games as they do trying to cook up new revenue streams. And I don't think the community relations people themselves suck, I think that the higher ups who tell them to say a,b and c one day then change their minds to x, y and z are the problem. All the mods on their official boards seem good but they get fed shit and then have to try and clean it up after they are made to look liars. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: HaemishM on December 18, 2005, 11:01:53 AM God forbid there is EVER a class action lawsuit filed against any of the big MMOG developers that actually reaches court. If it does, this medium is going to be WoW v. 7.777 for the next 30 fucking years. Dear God, you don't ever want to hope for that shit to happen. There are so many goddamn things that could be totally fucked for MMOG's if some of this stuff was codified. And Blackguard is right, if it happens, you can kiss any indy MMOG's of any type good-fucking-bye, because they can barely afford the art assets for MMOG's, much less the legal woobie blankets that would be needed to fight off the kind of whiny player entitlement bullshit lawsuits that could erupt.
Virtual ownership of property. Virtual relationship effects, benefits and liabilities. Real-life effects from overdependence on the games. Recognition of virtual guilds as real life business/social/legal entities. It's not going to be because ONE person files a lawsuit, it's going to be because A LOT of people get roped into thinking they are getting rich off a class-action dealie. One person is nothing to the kind of money being generated by MMOG's. Quote With schild, I kept my mouth shut because, well, schild gets excited about things (c.f. PSP). I got the same feeling that Signe did, but I think the proper thing to accuse schild of is "being a slut". You just now got that? I think some of you haven't been paying attention. The games industry is one great big frat party. Mostly they just hire hookers for the party, but they salivate over bagging the sluts like schild and me, because for some reason, we can convince people who would otherwise want to torch the frat party that maybe it's not so bad. We are the pimps of the game industry. I feel so dirty. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Righ on December 18, 2005, 11:35:41 AM God forbid there is EVER a class action lawsuit filed against any of the big MMOG developers that actually reaches court. God forbid there are any lawsuits. There are stupid lawsuits filed and even won all the time. It's going to happen. But the hyperbole about the end of all games as we know it is stunningly misplaced. Bad shit happens to companies that operate in immature markets where the risks are poorly understood. You file bankruptcy, spin off your subsiduary and let that take the heat, or whatever it takes. You spend a bunch of cash on some new-fangled insurance that was dreamed up the minute you got bitten, and get back to work. You charge the fucking walking wallets for your increased costs, and they mutter and yet pay it. It's the American way. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: SnakeCharmer on December 18, 2005, 12:19:15 PM If it is in fact found to be a different product, then it can be classified as a bait and switch, which is actionable under consumer law in many states. Rather than comment on something I'm not really capable or qualified to comment on (that is, Star Wars Galaxies in general, as I do not currently work on the project, nor have I in the past), I'll comment on what exactly scares the piss out of me every time I read the above statement (and believe me, I've seen variations of that statement for years now)...Oh what a pickle this entire genre of gaming would be in if such a thing were to come to pass. It's not the implications that my company could be harmed from such a situation that scares me, it's the fact that if changing a game were actionable, massively multiplayer games would die out entirely. Think about it. We put these things out the door and update them constantly because the player-base demands it. Changes would never be made if we could simply release a game and let it sit, surviving by the very nature of its existence. If we didn't change MMOGs after release, they would survive for a brief period of time before fizzling out and amount to massive wastes of development money (these things cost tens of millions of dollars these days, and don't start turning a profit for years after their release in most cases). If a lawsuit of this nature were ever filed and fulfilled, development studios would put the kibosh on changing the games at all, would never make a new MMOG, and we would all (developers and players alike) have to watch a genre die out before it even hit puberty. Hello. I'm reality. Have we met? The "bait and switch" isnt about the change to the game, per se - new game experience be damned. It was the fact that they (you? since you are an employee of SOE) touted the expanision at a cost of 30 dollars for several months as a preorder then ONE day after it went live, announced a change to the very CORE of the game (i.e. - combat and classes) and subsequently making half the classes simply...disappear...and making approx 60 percent of the content rewards in said expansion worthless (real or imagined). The whole thing screamed "heh, we got your money now motherfuckers, what are you going to do?". Then when SOE legal department got a hold of this, they said "whoa...this isnt right - legally or morally" (I know, legal department -possibly- standing up for something morally wrong). Simply put: If there wasnt a legal precedent to be set - bait and switch on goods the player does not technically own - why offer the refund? Out of the goodness of SOE's hearts? Right. A little late for that. SOE has screwed its customers for YEARS - why would THIS be any different? Look, I'll conceed that as a player, my sub fee gives me the right to play the game, nothing more. In the end, I have no real vested interest in the game, other than my time spent - and the only thing I technically own is the box and disks the game came in/on... BUT, being the provider of said right, doesnt give you the right to yank the virtual carpet out from under me. Sooner or later, a class action IS going to happen, especially in the society we live in, and someone is going to lose BIG. Our society is the reason I cant get a hot cup of coffee at a McDonalds drive thru anymore. Yes, its my first post after several months of lurking. Sue me :-D Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Arthur_Parker on December 18, 2005, 01:27:10 PM I wonder if anyone will ever release a mmorpg and say, that's it, this is version 1.0 and we will not change it apart from fixing major bugs and optimising the code. Stealth will work the way it does now until the servers close, we will not up the exp grind etc.
6, 12 months, or whenever, later when an expansion is needed they sell the expansion as version 2.0 of the game, they bring up new servers, allow people to transfer their characters over from 1.0 to 2.0 servers. If people don't like version 2.0 they have 90 days to transfer their characters back to version 1.0 servers. As the population moves to 2.0 servers, merge the 1.0 servers to keep a reasonable ingame population and use the hardware freed up for the new 2.0 servers. Never stop the 1.0 version of the game, as you are not making major code changes both versions of the game should be easier to support and if anyone really doesn't like your new changes they can just continue to play the game they originally bought. It would require some more investment in hardware during expansion releases but I think it would really cut down on the number of customers who cancel, just because you changed something stupid. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 18, 2005, 01:45:36 PM Y'all put alot of time into this site, if you'd like to take it to a place that is less-hate/more-gush that's your call. It's gonna be a tough balancing act cause your constituency might not be ready to move to a kinder, gentler f13. Get used to hearing 'sell out' from folks that would just like to continue bitching about anything and everything and not be bothered with the bigger picture. People hate change. Didn't say that, I'm just going to be less willing to lash out at the online gaming industry for their daily fuckups. It's not worth the effort anymore. Everything else is still fair game. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: heck on December 18, 2005, 02:09:24 PM Y'all put alot of time into this site, if you'd like to take it to a place that is less-hate/more-gush that's your call. It's gonna be a tough balancing act cause your constituency might not be ready to move to a kinder, gentler f13. Get used to hearing 'sell out' from folks that would just like to continue bitching about anything and everything and not be bothered with the bigger picture. People hate change. Didn't say that, I'm just going to be less willing to lash out at the online gaming industry for their daily fuckups. It's not worth the effort anymore. Everything else is still fair game. So you think this NGE event is just another daily fuckup of the industry? See that's kind of weird. This particular fuckup is the talk of the town, even outside the industry. I guess we're going to have to wait for the rapid destruction of the game before everyone is convinced that SOE went too far. I wonder if we'll ever get to see some real statistics of just how far and fast the subscriptions dropped. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Signe on December 18, 2005, 02:11:44 PM This has gone into the realm of silly now. Updates to add content is one thing, changing an entire game, right after selling the punters a relatively useless expansion, is another. If NGE was simply an update to add content or a patch to fix things, there wouldn't have been such a fuore. The New York Times and other major publications wouldn't have even noticed. They mostly took their existing customers and tossed them in the rubbish bin.
If people have to threaten to sue or file a lawsuit to force SOE or any company, regardless of what sort of product they put out, to do the right thing and return people's money, so be it. I seriously doubt it'll destroy the MMO industry. What it might do, however, is make them a bit more careful how they treat people who pay them for a service. Chances are, however, it won't make a bit of difference and, even if they lose, it'll be business as usual. If people really do get up in arms about it and some lawyers make goo goo eyes at SOE, I'm sure it'll only take some gentle prodding for people to get refunds on what ever time they have left. SOE HAS to know what they did was completely unethical. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 18, 2005, 02:14:06 PM Y'all put alot of time into this site, if you'd like to take it to a place that is less-hate/more-gush that's your call. It's gonna be a tough balancing act cause your constituency might not be ready to move to a kinder, gentler f13. Get used to hearing 'sell out' from folks that would just like to continue bitching about anything and everything and not be bothered with the bigger picture. People hate change. Didn't say that, I'm just going to be less willing to lash out at the online gaming industry for their daily fuckups. It's not worth the effort anymore. Everything else is still fair game. So you think this NGE event is just another daily fuckup of the industry? See that's kind of weird. This particular fuckup is the talk of the town, even outside the industry. I guess we're going to have to wait for the rapid destruction of the game before everyone is convinced that SOE went too far. I wonder if we'll ever get to see some real statistics of just how far and fast the subscriptions dropped. Actually I think realeasing Trials of Obi-Wan at all was the fuckup part. And I'm fairly confident they see the error in that. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: heck on December 18, 2005, 02:30:40 PM Y'all put alot of time into this site, if you'd like to take it to a place that is less-hate/more-gush that's your call. It's gonna be a tough balancing act cause your constituency might not be ready to move to a kinder, gentler f13. Get used to hearing 'sell out' from folks that would just like to continue bitching about anything and everything and not be bothered with the bigger picture. People hate change. Didn't say that, I'm just going to be less willing to lash out at the online gaming industry for their daily fuckups. It's not worth the effort anymore. Everything else is still fair game. So you think this NGE event is just another daily fuckup of the industry? See that's kind of weird. This particular fuckup is the talk of the town, even outside the industry. I guess we're going to have to wait for the rapid destruction of the game before everyone is convinced that SOE went too far. I wonder if we'll ever get to see some real statistics of just how far and fast the subscriptions dropped. Actually I think realeasing Trials of Obi-Wan at all was the fuckup part. And I'm fairly confident they see the error in that. Fair enough. But even if TOOW never happened, what about the extremely sudden revelation and implementation of complete overhaul? Like, this is now a new game entirely. Years of stringing along player correspondents and players alike, only to have been "developing" a new game behind everyone's back. Then inviting a handful of people [wtf was the critera] to test and approve this new game, which promised most of its strong points (collision detection etc) a mere six months after its hasty implementation, as if people would seriously wait 6 months for a game that maybe would work on some level? No matter how much the old SWG sucked, no matter how good the new game looks on paper, they could've done much better by including the existing player base (yea, those idiots) in the process of change. People fucking pay to beta test, and they slept on that. Two weeks isn't a beta test period. All this and more, and TOOW did happen. And it did take them some time to backtrack and offer refunds. A line was crossed here. The industry may suck, games suck, developers suck, players suck...but a line was crossed. Many people believe that, and I guess many don't. All we can do is wait and watch. And this is probably the deadest horse I've ever beaten :mrgreen: Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Simond on December 18, 2005, 03:17:40 PM Here's an idea: Maybe, just maybe, if SOE stopped doing things to make people hate them then the justified hate would disappear.
Of course, every publisher/developer/etc. is going to get 'OMG you sux' posts once in a while from the internet equivelent of the people who write letters in green ink and send them into newspapers, but that's just background radiation (so to speak) and expected. Having the NYT (etc) reporting on an upset playerbase is not. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 18, 2005, 04:30:08 PM When I was at SOE I used this phrase with a number of the developers.
"Yes, this will be a shitstorm the likes of which has never been seen." I can't say I didn't warn them. But then I didn't think people would despise the changes this much. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Hoax on December 18, 2005, 04:57:50 PM There have been several very smart things said in this thread here are my highlights for those that missed them. I wont quote because I forget who said what and I dont have that kind of time on my hands for anything but AV rep farming.
-This was a breach of the imagined social/moral contract between MMO gamers and the devs. Sure you nerf/buff things, add new items, content et all but you dont REMAKE the game in the middle of its life cycle. You just dont, nobody could have seen this comming. The fact that this happened with little warning, almost no testing and was bugged to hell and back is just a symptom of SOE being at the wheels. -MMO's being sued for content changes would destroy the industry in a hurry, thinking otherwise makes you a moron on par with the morons who have been paying for SWG from launch till now. I mean seriously, I never even played the game but I know smugglers never even worked wtf is wrong with you people. -The NGE fiasco will hurt SOE, their image has been so steeped in shit at this point that I would be fucking absolutely amazed if they can get their hands on established IP again. This fucking thing has been mentioned in the SF Chron, NYtimes, WIRED and who knows where else. When they have to put the rabid dog that is SWG out of its misery hopefully (cosmic justice 4tw!) it will be the end of SOE as a MMO dev. -The NGE was a good idea, is a good idea, games with less suck should never be something we direct the hate at. Barely, Schild is quite logical when he says that SOE making SWG into a less shitty game is a good thing. He wants to pretend he is jaded but Haemish smelled this out right away (being the jaded fucker he is) and said "they will break this like we have never seen a game broken before" or something to that effect. Innovation is hard, blahblah... In closing good times, enough so that I had to break my promise to retire, perhaps at 1000 then? Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Venkman on December 18, 2005, 06:26:15 PM Since obviously that 35 page monster has been replaced by this growing one, I'll ask here:
Has anyone wondered if perhaps parts of SOE themselves, as in, the folks running the pre-NGE show, were not aware of the pending NGE? I gotta imagine I'm not the first one. If that horse is already beaten, lemme know. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Numtini on December 18, 2005, 06:57:20 PM Has anyone wondered if perhaps parts of SOE themselves, as in, the folks running the pre-NGE show, were not aware of the pending NGE? I gotta imagine I'm not the first one. If that horse is already beaten, lemme know. That was my assumption, I figured some junior level twit cornered the LA rep on his or her infrequent slumming in the SOE offices and sold it in a hallway and a month later it was live and a disaster. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: SnakeCharmer on December 18, 2005, 06:58:18 PM Since obviously that 35 page monster has been replaced by this growing one, I'll ask here: Has anyone wondered if perhaps parts of SOE themselves, as in, the folks running the pre-NGE show, were not aware of the pending NGE? I gotta imagine I'm not the first one. If that horse is already beaten, lemme know. I would say they were aware of it, but to the extent...Who knows. People talk. People overhear these convos as they walk by. It was posted in the Jedi forums approx 4 months ago a pretty broad generalization of the changes but no specifics (thread has been deleted, of course - but not until it reached about 8 pages). But it was close enough (damned close) to what is now live. My personal opinion is that it was started about 3 months before the CU went to live. The CU in and of itself did very little to change the game. It removed the inability to use class specific specials with class specific weapons. It removed the Combat Queue, so that instead of setting up 10 attacks in a queue, one could only set 2 attacks. Introduced new weapons, new armor (hardly profession balancing). Removed some attacks that never worked, added new attacks that were broken. Added a level modifier on top of a skill based system. Too much was removed in the CU that doesnt apply to NGE. And, after the CU hit live, fixes moved at a snails pace - which is to say, few and far between. Three months ago, people that knew how to read the .tre files found the new stuff for Jedi in there (Vapaad focus skill, for instance, and the 7 types of lightsaber combat), which made people think Jedi was a revamp - again. You just cant sneak that stuff in, especially when it shows up in the freaking .tre files 3-4 months prior to. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: SnakeCharmer on December 18, 2005, 07:02:50 PM Has anyone wondered if perhaps parts of SOE themselves, as in, the folks running the pre-NGE show, were not aware of the pending NGE? I gotta imagine I'm not the first one. If that horse is already beaten, lemme know. That was my assumption, I figured some junior level twit cornered the LA rep on his or her infrequent slumming in the SOE offices and sold it in a hallway and a month later it was live and a disaster. That would be Jeff Freeman. His blog entry "Shenanigans" has been posted here, but for the hell of it, I'll recopy it here. BTW, its been since pulled off his blog due to the uproar it caused... Quote Shenanigans SWG was my first job in the game industry. I had played UO for a couple of years or so and knew Raph Koster in that internet sort of way: everyone that visited or posted on any message board anywhere on the internet knew Raph Koster. Played EQ to level 35, got killed by the same frickin' sand giant three times in a row trying to recover my corpse two weeks after a bug caused me to lose all my gear before EQ CS had the tech to undelete items and man that was it for me. So I made a "grey shard" using POL (written by Eric Swanson, who also works at SOE now – how weird is that?) and did that for a few years. Those were Good Times. Friday I'd post a "Wishlist" thread and people would reply with a hundred things they wanted added to the game. And Saturday and Sunday I'd add hundreds of things to the game. Production on a single small server is pretty nice. None of this "Oh, that'll take 2 months to deliver and will require two programmers, a designer and three artists." A lot of .broadcast "Hey everyone, brace yourselves, I'm going to replace the magic system in 3…2…1"-sorts of moments. Frequently doing development on the server that people were actually playing on, while they are playing on it, and only using a local server for really significant changes. In terms of administration, the people were a lot harder to manage than the game. Not just the players either, but the co-admin's: the folk that hosted the server, gm "staff", and whatnot. Janey emailed Raph describing a pretty ugly situation, and he'd responded with just some no-nonsense advice on how-to-run-a-mud, which she forwarded to me, and to which I replied, directly to him. That led directly to establishing, in writing, just what exactly the scope of everyone's responsibilities were, what the rules were, how they would be enforced, and so on. Simple stuff, right? We had none of that and, duh, we ran into a lot of problems 'til we did. This had nothing to do with his position in the game industry and everything to do with his experience with MUDs, and my lack of it, and his willingness to share info with a fellow enthusiast. Great learning experience, should I ever run a MUD again: Sony hires professionals to do that stuff. But it also opened a dialog between the two of us and I s'pose put my crazyass game design ideas on his radar. Anyway, hadn't talked to Raph in a while (because, well, things had been running pretty smoothly) so one day I emailed him and asked how he'd been. He said if I sent him a resume then he could tell me what he was working on. So I sent him a resume. And they flew me down to Austin to meet the whole SWG team and interview for a systems design position, which I didn't get. Heh. Couple months later they flew me back again for a worldbuilding position, which I did get. Within a few months or so I was scripting systems. Then within a couple years, lead content designer for JtL. Then a few months ago, "live lead systems designer". My titles were growing and growing! As of last week or so, now it's "Lead Game Play Designer". A step backwards in terms of character-count, but not actually a demotion, or even that big a change in responsibilities. Mind, we have a Creative Director and that isn't me, and a Lead Designer and that isn't me either. They're both my bosses, even though my title's longer. And there's a whole plethora of producers and executives and executive producers above that. So don't get the crazy notion that I'm "in charge" here. "The Man" is a many-headed beast called Management. I just try to help it make good decisions. With regard to game mechanics, it even lets me decide, sometimes. So a few months ago The Man comes along and says "What can we do to make this the most fun game it can possibly be?" It was the lead designer who holed-up in his office for a few days and then said, "Hey, come look at this." There's no way we can do that. There's no way we should do that. Man that's fun. The Man will never let us get away with doing that. We can't do it. We shouldn't do it. Oh man that is fun. When an executive producer sees something that is impossible to do, but which is too fun not to do, he makes a noise like "Hoooooooooph". My job was to be the guy to say, "Yes we can do that." I had to say this about forty times a day for two months. Lead Designer said it too, of course, but no one believed him, because he's crazy. Obviously. And they would only believe me for a few minutes at a time. It's frustrating to see the posts about Raph rolling over in his grave, crying himself to sleep, seeing all his design thrown out the window, etc. The notion seems to be that Raph's game is slow-paced, deliberate, social, "worldy", and in no case ever "fun" vs. this change which tosses-out everything Koster-esque about Galaxies. Specifically, that 'removing the Raph' is what makes it fun. First off, Star Wars Galaxies is already a whole lot of fun for a whole lot of people. And it was very successful. And Fast Action Combat and the introduction of classes based on iconic Star Wars character archtypes doesn't toss-out everything Koster-esque about Galaxies. Far from it. The social elements of Galaxies' design remain, and for good reason. MMOs must be MMOs and not just big single-player games that everyone just happens to play all at once. We wouldn't have gotten things like player cities, entertainers and so on without Raph, and I wouldn't want Galaxies to be without them. Simply removing them wouldn't make the game more fun anyway. There's a lot of cool in Galaxies. We're making all of it easier to see, easier to get to. Honestly, I doubt I even have the capacity to design a game that is completely un-Raph like. Who do you think taught me this stuff? Over the course of years. Here's how you get X. Here's why you want X. Yeh, I think I'm good 'nuff to see the 'why' and come up with 'Well if that's why, then we could do Z instead', but at that point it's a quibble over implementation detail, not design philosophy. I don't agree with Raph on every point about every thing, we're pretty much aligned in terms of high level game design. For example 'Socialization requires downtime' is something Raph might say that I might not agree with. But 'MMO's require socialization, otherwise what's the point?' is not something we'd disagree about. Many people have been influential in my personal development as a game designer and I've learned an awful lot on my own, but nothing and no other single person comes anywhere close the influence that Raph Koster has had on, in terms of game design from soup-to-nuts, what things I think about, if not in fact what I think about those things. So I think these sorts of remarks are a little inaccurate, a tiny bit irksome, pretty unfair.[/unquote] Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Simond on December 19, 2005, 05:31:44 AM -The NGE fiasco will hurt SOE, their image has been so steeped in shit at this point that I would be fucking absolutely amazed if they can get their hands on established IP again. Wonder if Warner Bros. is having second thoughts about the DC superhero MMOG license yet?Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Shockeye on December 19, 2005, 07:13:16 AM Wonder if Warner Bros. is having second thoughts about the DC superhero MMOG license yet? The combat from NGE is going into the DC MMOG, so the longer NGE is running the more they can improve things for the DC game. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: cevik on December 19, 2005, 07:15:08 AM Reading this thread is like watching an alcoholic bitch about a recovering alcoholic who is always hating on alcohol.
Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Shockeye on December 19, 2005, 07:16:31 AM Reading this thread is like watching an alcoholic bitch about a recovering alcoholic who is always hating on alcohol. In other words: everyone needs a drink. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Righ on December 19, 2005, 07:37:37 AM Wonder if Warner Bros. is having second thoughts about the DC superhero MMOG license yet? That's what I was alluding to when I said: And that's the interesting part. If I'd handed SOE a bunch of cash to create on online game with my license and was watching the train wreck of SW:G, it would take some pretty impressive talking to keep me from walking away. And if Sony are capable of talking that talk in closed business meeting, then they really ought to make a version for public consumption to quell the rumors. You can't help but think that these guys are about to bury SW:G to prevent the loss of other licenses. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Sky on December 19, 2005, 08:08:46 AM Quote I'd like to know WHY the sudden SOE love? I'm saying the same thing schild is:Quote I didn't say the NGE was the cat's meow. I didn't actually say it was fun. I said it was more fun than what SWG was before That's it. It's cheap entertainment and more fun than it was when all the spreadsheet people were the cat's meow. That has understandably twisted the panties of many a moisture farmer.Honestly, the f13 sluts did pique my interest, but further reading (no collision detection, it's not Planetside with wookies) quickly curbed that. What made me resub to SWG was pretty simple: the moisture farmers quitting (and there is actually a bit of content that got patched in with NGE, so there's something to do). Wow, I've made variations on this post three times in a row now. But it's pretty entertaining reading the SWG junkie posts. I've helped a couple girls get off H and, while nowhere near as severe, this is reminiscent. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Ironwood on December 19, 2005, 08:21:20 AM If it had been ME that had been flown to SOE, would I be called a sellout? Yes. But that's because you don't let your excited show, so I would have assumed that you sold out. I would have used the term "whore". With schild, I kept my mouth shut because, well, schild gets excited about things (c.f. PSP). I got the same feeling that Signe did, but I think the proper thing to accuse schild of is "being a slut". I don't think he got paid/promised anything, I think Smed and Raph murmured sweet/smart nothings in his ear and next thing you know he's got his skirt over his head. He came back to f13 with stars in his eyes, not understanding why we don't think Smed is dreamy.. Ding. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 19, 2005, 08:28:55 AM But Smed and Raph weren't there. In fact, between AGC and the now Raph hasn't so much as mentioned the NGE to me. Let's look at the integral part of my original post:
Quote Once collision detection goes in, this will probably be the game I play. There's actual skill involved now. You can run from people and they can't just autohit you. I don't know how else to explain it other than SOE has done the right thing. They've revitalized combat in an MMOG. It's a huge step in the right direction. Do I think they'll perfect it here? No. But it's by far the most interesting thing a studio has done. They've taken a gamble, and from what I've seen it's paid off. In other words, they've added the "Wars" back to Star Wars. It's been in the works for over a year now. In fact, the expansions could probably be called smokescreens for the launch of the real game. It'll shake things up. Okay, ready? I'm going to say this nice and slow. Once collision detection goes in, this will probably be the game I play. I don't know how else to explain it other than SOE has done the right thing. They've revitalized combat in an MMOG. It's a huge step in the right direction. Do I think they'll perfect it here? No. But it's by far the most interesting thing a studio has done. They've taken a gamble, and from what I've seen it's paid off. (admittedly I was wrong here, I didn't take into account Trials of Obiwan existing. Mostly because I really didn't know about it - seriously. I didn't know it was expansive or expensive enough for people to give a fuck about.) In other words, they've added the "Wars" back to Star Wars. It's been in the works for over a year now. In fact, the expansions could probably be called smokescreens for the launch of the real game. It'll shake things up. Ok, so at the end of that what do we have? Me saying what they did was some crazy shit and I'll play it in 6 months. Fuck the rest of you for taking the ball and running with it without reading carefully. Edit: The one thing I can be accused of later is saying that I was going to play immediately. Which I didn't. I couldn't bear to do it without collision detection in, so sue me. Addendum: I'll still play when collision goes in. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: stray on December 19, 2005, 08:32:43 AM Ok, so at the end of that what do we have? Coupled with the other thread, almost 40 pages, I think. That being said, I trust that you have no other motive about it than gaming. That's silly. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Reg on December 19, 2005, 08:59:25 AM Wow, I've made variations on this post three times in a row now. But it's pretty entertaining reading the SWG junkie posts. I've helped a couple girls get off H and, while nowhere near as severe, this is reminiscent. Given that you spent a good two years bitching unmercifully about EQ before finally moving on I think your experience with addiction is a little more direct than that. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Righ on December 19, 2005, 09:08:11 AM Addendum: I'll still play when collision goes in. Borras will fly in Utupaun Porax-38s before collision detection goes in. I wouldn't count on the game making it to that development milestone. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 19, 2005, 09:09:28 AM Addendum: I'll still play when collision goes in. Borras will fly in Utupaun Porax-38s before collision detection goes in. I wouldn't count on the game making it to that development milestone. Like I said, I'll play when collision detection goes in. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: HaemishM on December 19, 2005, 09:10:24 AM Since obviously that 35 page monster has been replaced by this growing one, I'll ask here: Has anyone wondered if perhaps parts of SOE themselves, as in, the folks running the pre-NGE show, were not aware of the pending NGE? I gotta imagine I'm not the first one. If that horse is already beaten, lemme know. I believe schild said as much about this when he first brought it up. Even the live team didn't know about it, because it was something like EQgems. Some guy was just fucking around with this in his spare time to see "can we do twitch combat in this MMOG environment?" Lo and behold, it worked. I still think someone exec somewhere, probably at Lucasarts, heard just the concept, got a boner the size of Georgia and insisted it be implemented ASAP. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Righ on December 19, 2005, 09:12:51 AM Addendum: I'll still play when collision goes in. Borras will fly in Utupaun Porax-38s before collision detection goes in. I wouldn't count on the game making it to that development milestone. Like I said, I'll play when collision detection goes in. The devil is in the details. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: schild on December 19, 2005, 09:24:01 AM Addendum: I'll still play when collision goes in. Borras will fly in Utupaun Porax-38s before collision detection goes in. I wouldn't count on the game making it to that development milestone.I chose my words pretty carefully when I wrote about it at first. It's also why it wasn't wordy. Yet, somehow, I was still crucified. The internet needs an Emotion Engine. Har. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Soln on December 19, 2005, 12:34:12 PM I don't think it's useful to directly or indirectly put blame on someone like Schild for being enthusiastic about general innovation, or being hopeful about an MMORPG innovation. After all, this is still a volunteer forum, yes? I never saw any SOE-cheerleading by him, just reporting some interesting news. That said, I'm not a fan of SOE. But they don't keep me up at night wringing my hands or foaming at the mouth either. I just made a long and attempted constructive post (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=5055.1190) a few days ago about what might be useful to consider with SWG. But frankly who cares? I'm just some guy rambling on with my own opinions. But I also resubbed two accounts to SWG and tried playing for a 4-5 weeks in the NGE to honestly give it a try, and there are some positive things at the started levels. Unfortunately, the game is not to my likeing, so I moved on. And to cut the bullshit, it's terribly buggy and without CS it's combat is really unappealing.
Ultimately, all I would've liked from SOE for SWG problems, whether it was stability, holocrons, GCW update, Jedi Revamp, CU, and NGE was a little more like this kind of email (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=5391.0) -- in a word, more consideration of my subscriptions. They do have a hard job to maintain customer loyalty and keep a distance from over-emotional types, but a little notice with the NGE should've occurred. And I think most people can see that the ongoing hatred over the lack of notice was because it really was a deliberate business decision. It's gross and is still resonating for people. Personally, I want to avoid the player vs provider drama, but maybe I'm either jaded about SOE or have come to terms with them and have realistic expectations of what they can provide. And how they will usually behave. FWIW, from the 6 months I played EQ2 and visited their forums, Blackguard is a good moderator. Unfortunately, far better than what went on the Galaxies board. What people fundamentally can't understand is how there can be such a difference in response and stability between games. It's that kind of thing that keeps people scratching their heads about SOE. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Akkori on December 19, 2005, 05:13:08 PM LA is the difference. for the most part. As much as I think SOE screwed the pooch, I firmly believe LA is the guy lathering the KY on the SOE phallus.
Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: 5150 on December 21, 2005, 05:08:31 AM If it is in fact found to be a different product, then it can be classified as a bait and switch, which is actionable under consumer law in many states. Rather than comment on something I'm not really capable or qualified to comment on (that is, Star Wars Galaxies in general, as I do not currently work on the project, nor have I in the past), I'll comment on what exactly scares the piss out of me every time I read the above statement (and believe me, I've seen variations of that statement for years now)...Oh what a pickle this entire genre of gaming would be in if such a thing were to come to pass. It's not the implications that my company could be harmed from such a situation that scares me, it's the fact that if changing a game were actionable, massively multiplayer games would die out entirely. Think about it. We put these things out the door and update them constantly because the player-base demands it. Changes would never be made if we could simply release a game and let it sit, surviving by the very nature of its existence. If we didn't change MMOGs after release, they would survive for a brief period of time before fizzling out and amount to massive wastes of development money (these things cost tens of millions of dollars these days, and don't start turning a profit for years after their release in most cases). If a lawsuit of this nature were ever filed and fulfilled, development studios would put the kibosh on changing the games at all, would never make a new MMOG, and we would all (developers and players alike) have to watch a genre die out before it even hit puberty. Blame the USA for that, fortunately there are other MMORPG developers who aren't based in the US (Eve, AO, Neocron to list 3 - I was hoping that Warhammer Online was going to operate from the UK but it doesn't look like it will) Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: cevik on December 21, 2005, 07:13:29 AM If a lawsuit of this nature were ever filed and fulfilled, development studios would put the kibosh on changing the games at all, would never make a new MMOG, and we would all (developers and players alike) have to watch a genre die out before it even hit puberty. Blame the USA for that, fortunately there are other MMORPG developers who aren't based in the US (Eve, AO, Neocron to list 3 - I was hoping that Warhammer Online was going to operate from the UK but it doesn't look like it will) I agree, those goddamn lawsuits stop everything. I miss the good old days when McDonalds sold coffee. Title: Re: SOE hate Post by: Strazos on December 21, 2005, 12:29:49 PM Isn't the change covered the the EULA?
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